PDA

View Full Version : frog alignment specifics



Alex Liebert
05-01-2018, 5:27 PM
I'm taking a little break from the project at hand to regroup and doing some work on a few vintage planes I've picked up.

I have a No 8 Type 10 that's far from finished but that I got the point of usability and am happy with, I was able to joint some edges with it successfully and am quite pleased.

I'm now looking at a type 16 no 4, which has different frog and bed shape and a different class of problems than the no 8 had.

I'd appreciate any help or suggestions before I start filing anything as I'd like to get it right :)

It's hard to photograph so I've used some tape and drawn some lines. Here is an image of the frog assembly with blade:

385112

The blade itself is quite bowed. Under tension like this, it flattens out some. Because I can't easily photograph it against a bright light, the green tape shows the areas where the frog is making good contact with the blade. The parts without tape, they are not touching.

The red arrow points to the tip of the frog at its wedge where it meets the mouth of the plane. The frog is sort of rounded over here.

The lateral adjuster itself is also bowed, which is mostly a cosmetic annoyance, it does clear the tote okay. I'd like to straighten it but don't want to risk breaking anything.

The face of the frog itself is pretty flat.

So first question - what, if anything, can I do, or should I do, about this?

Next is a picture showing the front machined area where the frog seats into the body of the plane:

385111

This is going to be the most challenging area to file, especially with any precision or at any particular angle. It's not flat, and the frog doesn't contact it well in the front. I've highlighted the areas in red that are lowest. I haven't found any videos that address this area for anything but rust removal. How much does it matter, and what's the best strategy for fixing it, if any?

I do understand the frog mating surfaces should all be as flush as possible. But I'm wondering how important the other details of alignment are. In other words- it seems that ideally, the frog would sit perfectly centered in the body with its walls parallel to the body's walls, and that it's front edge would line up perfectly with the back of the mouth. This is not possible without reshaping in small spaces, so how important is that, if at all? And what's the ideal position of the frog?

(Obviously the frog is meant to be adjustable forwards and back to open and close the mouth. But I don't really understand why it's not manufactured at the full width of the sole so that it would be impossible to misalign it. Nor do I ever see much time spent aligning it laterally in videos, so I'm not sure if it's irrelevant or just doesn't make for good YouTube TV.)

I have some more small details I'm unclear about but i'll stop here instead of making this post any longer.

Warren Mickley
05-01-2018, 5:34 PM
How well does the plane work?

Alex Liebert
05-01-2018, 5:55 PM
How well does the plane work?

Haven't sharpened the blade yet. Just finished getting all the rust off.

I take your point, don't do anything to it unless it doesn't work.

Regardless though, if you have any suggestions on the correct way to seat the frog I would appreciate them when I reassemble!

Jim Koepke
05-01-2018, 6:29 PM
Alex, this old post of mine might be of help:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

Post #27 has an example of a blade that is bowed due to too much force from the chip breaker (cap iron) with a bit about correcting it.

Posts #8 & #10 deal with the frog. If your frog is solid, doesn't rock, when set in place without screws then it is likely going to be okay.

jtk

Alex Liebert
05-01-2018, 6:44 PM
Alex, this old post of mine might be of help:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

Post #27 has an example of a blade that is bowed due to too much force from the chip breaker (cap iron) with a bit about correcting it.

Posts #8 & #10 deal with the frog. If your frog is solid, doesn't rock, when set in place without screws then it is likely going to be okay.

jtk

Thank you Jim, just read through that post of yours earlier today, very good!

Just for confirmation- when seating the frog, it should be reasonable centered and straight laterally, and the blade should be able to just slide out the mouth without hitting the lip- and that's good enough to start- correct?

Alex Liebert
05-01-2018, 6:50 PM
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

Post #27 has an example of a blade that is bowed due to too much force from the chip breaker (cap iron) with a bit about correcting it.

jtk

Sorry one more question- I don't think the post numbering is the same on my computer. Is it the part where you're talking about straightening the cap iron?

Jim Koepke
05-01-2018, 9:41 PM
Thank you Jim, just read through that post of yours earlier today, very good!

Just for confirmation- when seating the frog, it should be reasonable centered and straight laterally, and the blade should be able to just slide out the mouth without hitting the lip- and that's good enough to start- correct?

Correct, as much as possible the blade should rest on the lip, but slide freely over it. On type 10 and later planes it is often helpful to loosen the top screw on the frog adjustment plate. It can prevent the frog from rotating enough to properly align. Then when the frog is tightened down the screw holding the plate to the frog can be retightend.



Sorry one more question- I don't think the post numbering is the same on my computer. Is it the part where you're talking about straightening the cap iron?

Yes, the part about straightening the cap iron. It should have an image of one of my planes where light can be seen between the frog and the blade.

The post numbering depends on how you have your settings selected. Mine used to be on Hybrid which was good for seeing a tree diagram of the posts, but on long threads some replies would be missed. Recently it was set up to be Linear with the oldest first. The only confusion now is when someone joins the discussion and posts a reply to an old post it might appear to be out of the current context.

jtk

Andrew Seemann
05-01-2018, 11:56 PM
I'd probably clean it up, sharpen the blade and see how it works as is. If it works good enough, leave it. If it works almost but not good enough, you could maybe fiddle with the blade curve or find another iron. As long as the frog seats solid, the rough marks shouldn't matter much. If it still doesn't work good, either use it as a beater plane or put it on the shelf for parts. #4 Baileys are about as common of a vintage plane as there is. Unless you have a lot of sentimental attachment to it, that isn't a particularly valuable model and not worth putting a ton of time and effort into when better ones are so easily available.