Passage Gate Longevity

[Patrick LaFree]

Hi all,

Im seeking advice on a gate im doing for a new client. I am remaking an existing gate that is not holding up. Its made out of cedar. It has rotted through in areas where water is trapped due to the design/build. The client would also like to get rid of the oval window, so that simplifies things. Planning on building it out of Mahogany.

I am familiar with the build process of outdoor gates from my background but im by no means an expert. I also am struggling on good design. My question is, how would you go about building the gate pictured to ensure it lasts 5-10 years?

I am planning on doing M&T, a pitch on the top of the lock rail and bottom rail with birdsmouthed Xterra panels, epoxy glue up, and epoxy on the top/bottoms of exposed boards. Trying to avoid water traps in the joinery where it meets the panels.

Also, im not sure the best way to joint the radius top rail to the stiles. I havent done a gate with such a significant radius before. I've seen a mortise and tenon done on an angle before but ive not built one myself. Would you glue up a few large boards and cut the radius out of that? Or would you do it in segments with an exposed joint at the peak?

I know its a lot of questions but just seeking any guidance at all so that I am confident in my design.

Thanks!

[lowell holmes]

Isn't clear white oak considered an outdoor wood?

https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/outdoor-lumber

[Lee Schierer]

Material selection depends in large on what part of the world will this gate be hung? Add your location to your profile...

[Patrick LaFree]

Im out of Nashville, TN. W. Oak and Mahogany are similarly priced around here any the home owner has requested Mahogany.

Any thoughts on the how the joinery was done on this door? 385043

[Darcy Warner]

I have built a few high traffic gates out of ipe. Construction was with dominos and west system six10 epoxy.

[peter gagliardi]

Mortise and tenon is good.
Beveled horizontal flats, with an air gap between panel bottoms and rails.
Extend a tenon from the stiles straight up through the radiused top head for the strongest joint there.

[Larry Edgerton]

Couple of things I do that seem to work....

I soak the end grain of the panels in epoxy by standing them up in a cookie sheet with epoxy, soaks up quite a ways in a wood like you are using.

I do like Peter suggests, but I hold the bottom panels up with a spaceball, and I drill a small drain hole that runs to the center of the bottom groove, it also treated with West system, so that there is a drain between each spaceball.

I have one white oak gate done this way that has been there about 20 years now and still looks good.

I have another that I set the bottom of the panels in clear silicone, all parts prefinished and masked, and it is doing well too. I thought it may cause splitting but has not as of yet. It was a PIA but it did work.

Wood rots. But, the 5-10 years you are looking for should be no problem, very realistic goal. I use automotive clear a lot in those situations, but do not recommend for those without a booth at their disposal.

[Bob Falk]

I would go with ipe, which will look similar to a darker mahogany..... or black locust (which will be lighter)...+1 on the epoxy. Check Table 14-1 of the Forest Products Lab Wood Handbook (see link below). It lists the relative decay resistance of domestic and tropical woods.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=18102&header_id=p

[Tom Bender]

Good construction advice here. Now let's talk about style. It's going to be a very different look without the window. It will loose much of the elegance and be dominated by the country style X bracing, which is out of place even with the window. You might want to propose some options.

Your second pic is great. Love the use of metal, but have no idea how it would survive humidity changes. Masterfully built.

[Brian Holcombe]

I would consider using draw-bored mortise and tenon (not pinned, but actually draw-bored) which reduces reliance upon glue for the lower joints. I'd likely glue them as well as a belt and suspenders approach.

I don't sand much, but especially so for outdoor work. Sanded surfaces absorb water much easier than those that are either machine planed or hand planed. Outdoor work for me is always 100% hand planed. Some shops use large super surfacers (Mark Hennebury does this and participates on the board here) for this work.

If it's possible I would raise the bottom of the door and the door frame a few inches, enough to get it out of the sitting water in heavy rains.

[lowell holmes]

I have used white oak in Galveston County (Gulf Cast Texas) successfully. It is a good outdoor wood.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

We have our front fence made of ipe pickets, as well the entrance gate. Parts are only glued with naval glue and a few copper nails. No M&T or any other "sophistication". Wood was oiled and painted (oil based paint).

It runs for 25+ years and stays like new under the very aggressive weather under the tropics.

[Patrick LaFree]

Thanks for all the great advice.

I am going to price it in Ipe to give the client the option.

My old boss suggested just doing butt joints with Tite joint fasteners. Hes done 100s of gates using that method and has had no warranty issues.

[joseph f merz]

Ipe has never been successful for me .Hasn't held glue well .destroys blades and bits .Bums me to dull a new bit after a few passes .Oh dust is serious poisen .Seriously ,if it decides to cup ,warp shrink or expand -It does .Maybe there are different types of wood/trees under the Ipe name .
I have a domino now for my joints .Redwood and cedar are both easy to get in my area .I use tight bond 111 .easy to use ,very strong .
i generally soak end grain with linseed oil /or any oil .then some sort of sealing oil .
The next one I will be making will be clear fir . It will hold up fine ,oil it well .
both of these are redwood .the raised panel was huge .had some trouble keeping it centered in the dado/mortise .

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree, I like my tools too much to subject them to Ipe.

[David Helm]

"The next one I will be making will be clear fir. It will hold up fine ,oil it well ". I live in the Northwest and have used CVG Doug Fir(mostly old growth) for many projects over the last 40+ years. I can safely say that, regardless of the oil, Doug Fir is NOT a good outdoor wood.

[Frank Drew]

Many good recommendations on outdoor specific joinery and end grain sealing.

I’d have no trouble going along with the client’s preference for (genuine) Mahogany, which is generally regarded as an outstanding timber for outdoor use.

[joseph f merz]

i agree fir is not a good out door wood .is what it is . actually built an out door cabinet for a client with sugar pine .I complained to the client ,she set me straight "I want it out of sugar pine if it rots we'll build another"
VG Fir chips and splinters ,actually find it to be a real stresser as a finish carpenter -let alone when building face frames and cabinet doors ,drawers .
used teak a few years back on a deck railing - I was really surprised to see cracks .
And Mahogany is wonderful inside and out .nice to work with .