Lapsharp

[Paul Comi]

Martin asked me to post my opinions and experience with the Lapsharp sharpening system I bought this year.

After getting into hand tools over the past year and not having any sharpening experience or sharpening tools whatsoever, I spent some time evaluating my options before buying the Lapsharp. What I learned was that I could a) spend several hundred dollars investing in water or oil stones of varying grits plus get a honing jig and learn how to sharpen tools by hand, b) buy a Tormek and end up buying all the extra holders and tool rests which quickly adds up c) buy a Veritas MK II powered unit or d) buy a Lapsharp.

The strongest praise seemed to come from those who had bought a MKII system. I heard that the unit was pretty much idiot proof and resulted in very sharp tools. As I learned more, I came to the conclusion that the MKII was essentially a motorized scary sharp system in which you take tools progressively through finer grits of adhesive on a very flat surface and end up with mirror like finished super sharp chisels and plane blades. As I looked at the MKII, I started hearing comments about something called a Lapsharp and it was only for the fact that I didn't have cash in hand to buy a MKII or I wouldn't have even investigated it. By the way, I have 2 kids under 7 who demand my time when I'm not working so the idea of spending hours to sharpen any tools was something I decided was not going to be practical. That ruled out using stones although I've since learned that people with well refined skills can sharpen and touch up their tools very quickly. I just figured that if I was going to spend even a few hundred dollars to get into sharpening tools and possibly end up getting into a powered system, I might as well go straight to a powered system and save money in the long run.

I found information about the Lapsharp at The Japan Woodworker and to be honest I thought the unit looked like an outdated record player-like the first one I got as a kid. Had I not been encouraged to learn more about it and had I not heard such good things from a few people who already had them and who I respected very much I would never have bought one. The reasons I was encouraged to look into the lapsharp included a) the only powered unit with a reversible motor b) unlike the MKII it has the ability to use lubricant and even continuous cooling solution with a recirculating pump c) a larger platen surface that allows you to flatten the soles of planes (I've done up to a #5 so far).

When I saw that the lapsharp unit was $599 I gagged. But, this was one time when I figured that sharp tools when doing hand woodworking was going to be very important both for me to enjoy the process and also to improve. I looked at the tormek and by the time you add the various jigs to the unit its up at the same kind of money unless you're fortunate to find one used or if you can find one somehow on a really good sale. What turned me off on the tormek was that unlike the lapsharp that is a flat disk surface, the tormek is a polishing wheel. The guys I heard from with tormeks told me that they sharpened up to a point with the tormek and then took their tools to their stones to get really sharp and in some cases did other things. Based on what others were telling me the tormek was not a complete solution and to spend those kind of dollars on a system that I'd still end up going to stones to finish with wasn't something I wanted to do.

But what really helped me make my mind up was to go to my local Rockler who has since stoppped carrying them (nd now Woodcraft does I believe) and inspect the unit. Firstly, this is a hefty, solid, well made unit. A picture of it does it a disservice because the platen, body, and hardware of this thing are well made and give you the impression that it is a quality unit. Secondly, to operate the unit, a key feature with the unit is a deadman's pedal. You can turn the unit on, but it won't actually rotate until you press the footpedal down. That enables you to hold your tool in position on the abrasive disk and then activate the unit. Since you never take your hands off the tool, you have more control. I have since heard many MKII people saying that they want to get a deadman's pedal for their units for that reason. and by the way, the lapsharp offers sharpening abrasives below 1 micron which exceeds what the MKII offers. I find that once I get my tools initially flat and sharp, I just need to touch them up with 1 or maybe 2 of the final disks and I'm ready to go. Its only when you initially take your tools that don't have flat backs and have chips, etc that you will spend some time going through the entire sharpening regime of 5 or so disks from rough to fine sharpening abrasives.

Chisels and plane blades are held at the proper angle either by hand against an angled tool bar or clamped into a holding jig and held against the tool bar. I found that on very narrow chisels, I wasn't happy with the tool bar set up until I made an insert to give more support for my tool holder and since then its worked fine.

Since the lapsharp has a reversible motor, you're able to sharpen and flatten things evenly that you can't on the MKII like knives which have a bevel on both sides. Try laying a knife on the right side on a MK II and the blade will be digging into the rotating disk, but by changing the rotation of the Lapsharp disk, you're in business.

I've found that this is especially useful when you're taking a plane blade in rough condition and getting it flat and usable. I even use it to sharpen my scraper blades.

The lapsharp is an evolving piece of equipment and as time goes on, they come up with more value added features to expand its usefulness. There is an accessory that enables you to sharpen your planer and jointer blades which I don't think I'll buy, but there's a jig for holding carving tools and lathe tools that I'd like to get. The system comes with a dvd explaining how to sharpen your tools and as a complete neophyte at sharpening, I had some questions so I contacted the manufacturer. Don Naples, the guy who developed this system is a great guy and is very patient with newbies like me. For a guy like me who had literally never sharpened a tool in my life, I am now able to dissasemble a plane like a block plane, flatten the sole, the go through the grits flattening the back and sharpening the bevel through to mirror finish and have a well tuned tool. Considering the short learning curve to get sharp tools and the versatility and quality of the system, I think it is worth the money and if you're looking into a sharpening system, its worth investigating. There you go Martin! If you want to go straight to the Lapsharp site to read about it, google woodartistry or lapsharp and trust me, if you contact Don Naples, he'll answer your questions. Tell him I said hello

[Michael Perata]

I bought my Lapsharp about two years ago and agree with your comments.

I practiced using a 2.5" Stanley chisel I used way back when framing houses.

Took me about 30 minutes to get the back so flat and polished that I could see a virtually undistorted image of a reflected nighttime moon.

It is a hefty investment but does the job very nicely.

[Martin Shupe]

Paul and Michael,

Thanks for your comments. I think I want one of these, so now I only have to convince my SWMBO that it is worth the expense. Perhaps if I finish a few more "projects in work", she may be persuaded. I'll keep you posted. Perhaps I will be able to see one of these in action at the Dallas woodworking show in December.

[Paul Comi]

I bought my Lapsharp about two years ago and agree with your comments.

I practiced using a 2.5" Stanley chisel I used way back when framing houses.

Took me about 30 minutes to get the back so flat and polished that I could see a virtually undistorted image of a reflected nighttime moon.

It is a hefty investment but does the job very nicely.

Michael, when I was writing up my comments, I ended up deleting one sentence that applies to your post. On a recent #5 1/2 plane I bought from another woodworker before I tried sharpening it myself, I just couldn't dial in a usable shaving so I began to flatten and sharpen the plane blade. Something just wasnt' right and as I really paid close attention both the sole and the blade were not flat. The back of the plane blade had to be flattened more than any blade I own and even with the most aggressive grit it was taking too long. This is a comment I've heard from other Lapsharp users that they wish there were more rough grits for the initial refurbishing work. I guess you could get a psa disk in a rough grit and buy an extra platen, but in these cases my 12" disk sander works well. I am careful to not overheat the blade or sole but it does the hard work of getting the parts in the ballpark so I can go through the grits on the Lapsharp. Also, I've found it speeds things up when working on a blade that I have never sharpened to flatten the back and sharpen the bevel at the same time using each grit rather than going all the way through the grits with the back and then starting all over with the bevel. My .02

[Paul Comi]

Paul and Michael,

Thanks for your comments. I think I want one of these, so now I only have to convince my SWMBO that it is worth the expense. Perhaps if I finish a few more "projects in work", she may be persuaded. I'll keep you posted. Perhaps I will be able to see one of these in action at the Dallas woodworking show in December.

If you do small projects like jewelry boxes with precisely fitting parts, you can use the Lapsharp as a disk sander. Tell her you're getting several tools in one-that's why they're more expensive :-)

[John Edwards]

First off I own the Lap Sharp also.
Have talked with Michelle and Don of (WoodArtistry.com) at length about the various nuances of the unit. The jigs, adhesive disc’s etc.
The one thing that stands out is the total commitment to quality and customer service they provide. Have a question? The answer is but a call away.
Have special steel? Such as in a jointer or planer knife? They will suggest the correct papers to use with it. My Holtey planes are made with a D2 steel iron. Much harder then the typical steel used in a Stanley or LN etc. They helped in identifying what papers I should use. In fact on several instances they have talked me out of buying an accessory that I didn’t need.
Did you ever get a call from a company asking how you liked the product? Get a newsletter sent to your home from Tormek? Send you updates on the owner’s manuals? Or even a whole new manual? Include a DVD with a new jig?

The following comments are aimed at the Tormeks. Why you ask? Because price wise it is the closest sharpening system to the Lap Sharp. Some love them. Others don’t.
Not meant as a bash but (my) real life experiences. The basic unit will sharpen chisels and plane blades, to a degree. After that the jigs start to come into play. And some of them are not cheap to buy or easy to learn. As Paul has already stated.

Sorry I’ve tried three Tormeks. Was shown how to use some of the jigs by the US distributor. Always got a kick out of the paper-cutting demo. My 3-year-old Faber ware steak knives will do that.
Try reshaping an A2 turning tool on a Tormek. How come they offer not only a strop and stropping compound but also an accessory stropping wheel? Yes the profiles are useful in some cases. Does that seem to suggest that the tools are not coming off the grinding wheel as sharp as they should be? But then the jig you just used to put that nice edge on the tool doesn’t work on the strop....... Freehand baby and likely a rolled edge. Not to mention that you just preformed another step in the sharpening process.
How about water all over the workbench? Then what do you do with all the swarf sludge? Not down my drain you don’t. If you don’t dump it quick enough it turns to concrete. Like the sweet aroma of mold? Try letting a Tormek wheel sit wet for a spell?
So at best the Tormek is nothing more then a slow speed, water-cooled grinding wheel. Which by the way becomes smaller in diameter as it wears away. There goes your presets or witness marks for repeatability. Without the truing jig you cannot be sure that the face of the wheel is square to its axis. Only parallel to the jig support arm. Which doesn’t mean your plane blade is going to be ground square across it’s width. Because the jig for that is designed to be square to the axis. NOT the stones face. Did I mention the wheel diameter? Every time you true the wheel the diameter is reduced.....
Ok, rant off......

Don and his group of engineers spent a lot of time studying the shortcomings of many types of sharpening methods and systems. They did a great job of trying to overcome many of these issues.
The closest sharpening tool that comes close to the concept is the Lee Valley MarkII.
Did you know that the plates on the Lap Sharp are dead flat? Machined not cast. How about the fact that you can switch from one grade of paper to another without changing you’re setting. Try that with a MarkII.
LV uses vibration dampeners on there mounting feet. Then the infamous belt drive. That’s another story.
Lap Sharp uses the simplest method. Sheer Mass and high quality components control vibration. The motors are rated for continuous duty and are reversible, again as Paul has pointed out. Look at the amp ratings. You will see the Lap Sharp motor is rated higher. Thus providing more torque as you press down on whatever it is you are trying to sharpen.

Is the Lap Sharp perfect? No. Paul pointed out several shortcomings. Are the people who manufacture it trying to fix the shortcomings? Absolutely.
Case in point. From the Japan Woodworker I purchased the turning tool/carving tool jig. Right when it first came out. As a side note I feel the jigs are very reasonably priced for what you are getting. The Lap Sharp folks let me know that they made an improvement to the jig and offered to help me update it. Months after I had already bought it. That is customer SERVICE.
Through the rumor mill I understand that the Lap Sharp folks will be offering a couple of new jigs. Both of which are designed to address the problems that Paul mentioned. Small tool holding as an example.

Do I like the Lap Sharp? Yes, you can go from flea market grungy to surgical sharp without changing anything but the platter that holds the paper.
Like mirrors for the sides and soles of your planes? Want a dead flat chisel back or plane sole? Want to throw away your razor and shave freehand? Buy a Lap Sharp.

Be honest. Do the math with other motorized systems. You will find the Lap Sharp to be a better value.

Or look at it this way. While you are flattening your water stones or creating a slurry (careful not to contaminate the next grit) I’ll have my iron sharpened and be back to work.

Ok, Ok enough. It’s just a darn good product. You folks on the West coast have it made. Lap Sharp provides demo’s and workshops. Us east coasters have to rely on word of mouth or rants and raves like mine.........

Enjoy.
John Edwards

[Mike Henderson]

I guess I'm in a very different league than most of the people posting in this thread. I can't imagine spending $400-$600 for a basic sharpening machine, then spend even more on jigs to go with the machine. There are so many other things I could do with $1,000 before I'd even consider spending it on one of these setups.

I've always used waterstones and get very satisfactory results, both in the time it takes and the sharpness of the tools. The biggest problem is with new tools when you have to flatten the backs, but that's a one time operation. Once you prepare your tools the first time, sharpening takes very little time.

I could see buying one of these tools to be shared by a group of people (maybe a school or a large woodworking business) but for an individual I can’t imagine it.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Mike<O:p</O:p

[Paul Comi]

I guess I'm in a very different league than most of the people posting in this thread. I can't imagine spending $400-$600 for a basic sharpening machine, then spend even more on jigs to go with the machine. There are so many other things I could do with $1,000 before I'd even consider spending it on one of these setups.

I've always used waterstones and get very satisfactory results, both in the time it takes and the sharpness of the tools. The biggest problem is with new tools when you have to flatten the backs, but that's a one time operation. Once you prepare your tools the first time, sharpening takes very little time.

I could see buying one of these tools to be shared by a group of people (maybe a school or a large woodworking business) but for an individual I can’t imagine it.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Mike<O:p</O:p

I got my Lapsharp for $599 with free shipping as I recall and it came with the jig that is used to sharpen blades and chisels. I'm not trying to argue or be contentious, but there's no way its $1,000. I was asked to post my thoughts on the unit and share my experience so I'm no advocate and nor do I have any vested interest, but how much did you pay for your collection of stones, jigs and implements to sharpen so far? I looked at getting set up with stones and jigs to do sharpening by hand and as I recall it was going to be at least $300. How long are those stones going to last before they wear out and have to be replaced? I honestly don't know because I don't have experience with them, but with the lapsharp, now that I have the unit, all I am going to pay for are replacement disks and those are long wearing, washable and pretty inexpensive. A person who is disciplined and driven to learn how to sharpen by hand is a hand tool person for sure. I am a hybrid power and hand tool guy and I want surgical sharp in a very short period of time so I can spend my time woodworking and not sharpening. The only way someone is going to spend more than what I spent is by buying the jigs to sharpen their planer blades. Try sharpening those by hand. Personally, I'll pay the $35 for a new set and chuck the old ones away. I see the lapsharp as a one time sharpening investment and unless you have already spent several hundred dollars on another sharpening method, you should consider cutting to the chase and getting something that will give you expert scary sharp results without the learning curve associated with hand sharpening methods.

[Mike Henderson]

I checked on the Lee Valley web site. Here are the current figures for some waterstones:

Basic stone set (800 and 4000) $41.00
8000 stone $46.50
Norton flattening stone $23.00 (found on a different site)
Total $110.50

Throw in Lee Valley's top of the line honing jig - the MkII $48.59 (and a lower cost one could be more than sufficient)
Total $159.00

Mike

[Paul Comi]

I checked on the Lee Valley web site. Here are the current figures for some waterstones:

Basic stone set (800 and 4000) $41.00
8000 stone $46.50
Norton flattening stone $23.00 (found on a different site)
Total $110.50

Throw in Lee Valley's top of the line honing jig - the MkII $48.59 (and a lower cost one could be more than sufficient)
Total $159.00

Mike

When I asked others who sharpen by hand what they used, I got dizzy with the options between oil and water, types of stones (india, etc) and in the end what really made me willing to splurge on the Lapsharp was one single thought that if I eventually lost interest in woodworking, my investment in a Lapsharp would still be at least partially recoverable. Even if I used the system all year I know I could sell it for at bare minimum for $350 because they don't discount the system. So, I figured I was able to jump into perfectly sharp tools with a radically short learning curve and still have something of value in the event that I had to sell it. I look at all my tools that way now. If I bought even a couple hundred dollars of sharpening elements and ended up having to sell them, I doubt I'd be able to get very much for them. But, there's a market for both and they're suited for different kinds of users. The lapsharp user as was mentioned may even be somebody who uses special grits and sharpens carbide tools with a continuous flow of lubrication. To me, that means that the resale of the unit has a lot of value because its not just of interest to hobby woodworkers.

See Martin - something tells me you knew you were starting something up :-)

[Mike Henderson]

Every time I buy a woodworking tool, I tell my wife the same thing. But as she reminds me, "It's still money in the shop!"

Mike

[Paul Comi]

Every time I buy a woodworking tool, I tell my wife the same thing. But as she reminds me, "It's still money in the shop!"

Mike

Sounds like you need to make something for her... When you build something for her that she is excited about, she's more likely to go along with you saying "I need this tool to build this project" :D

[Martin Shupe]

Paul,

I wasn't trying to start anything, honest!

As far as cost goes, I have Shapton stones, which I like, and they are cheaper, albeit slower. I like the new LV jig, too, it does well, except for my smaller chisels, which tend to skew, causing problems. I don't think I would have that problem with the Lapsharp.

I have tried a Tormek, which I liked as well, except for the way the grits are changed, and then you have to finish with Shapton's anyway.

I put the Lapsharp in the same price range as the Tormek, so that is what I compare it to, although I should compare it to the LV MK II.

I don't have many planes, but as I acquire more, I could see where a Lapsharp would be a nice way to save some time and increase my sharpening results.

Do I need one at this point? No. Do I want one anyway? Yes. Do I want to spend that much money? I am not sure.

I will continue to analyze this acquisition. Thanks for all the input.

[Paul Comi]

Paul,

I don't have many planes, but as I acquire more, I could see where a Lapsharp would be a nice way to save some time and increase my sharpening results.

You know that this is a very slippery slope. DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK (http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Tools/Neanderthal/Hand_Tool_Pictography.htm)unless you want to become seriously bit by the hand tool bug. This is absolute hand tool porn. :cool:

[Gene Collison]

Did you know that the plates on the Lap Sharp are dead flat? Machined not cast. How about the fact that you can switch from one grade of paper to another without changing you’re setting. Try that with a MarkII.
LV uses vibration dampeners on there mounting feet. Then the infamous belt drive. That’s another story.

John,

In all fairness I'm sure that your lapsharp has some advantages over the LV MK11 which I own. But I question some of the things you are mentioning as negatives. Yes, the MK2 uses a timing belt drive, smooth like all belts, check under the hood of your car, South Bend lathes run with belts often for 50 years. I recently sold a 12" X 36" lathe with 35 years of time on it with the original belts. Infamous belts, I don't think so! I would be very surprised if Lapsharp didn't have nylon gears for drive, nothing wrong with either providing both are done right. Lapsharp advertises needle bearings as being more rugged than ball bearings, true. Toyota trucks have ball bearings on the rear axles, Ford uses roller which are needle on a larger scale, neither have problems, it just depends on how it's done. American made heavy duty motor??? So!
Yes, the MK2 angle changes as you change platters, it's deliberate, that's where the microbevel comes from. If you stay at the same angle your abrasives aren't lasting as long.
Don't read too much into my post, I'm not saying the Lapsharp is inferior. It is no doubt superior to the MK2 although I have never used one. By the same token, I am getting the job done just fine with the MK2 and actually prefer to use stones in most cases. For my usage, the MK2 was a good investment, I'm not so sure the Lapsharp would be, YMMV though.

Gene

[Paul Comi]

Yes, the MK2 uses a timing belt drive, smooth like all belts, check under the hood of your car, South Bend lathes run with belts often for 50 years. I recently sold a 12" X 36" lathe with 35 years of time on it with the original belts. Infamous belts, I don't think so!

> I think the point of belt vs direct drive isn't a question of longevity - its just one characteristic of a heavy duty system that is vibration free enough to be effective without having to use an indirect drive and I doubt that the rubber band size belt in a unit this small compares to the more robust belt on that lathe. I don't know how important it is, but I like the idea that when I start the unit with a pedal and I'm pressing down with both hands on a plane blade there isn't a belt between me and the turntable. Come to think of it, when the lathe starts up, someone isn't holding a tool against the wood so it has a chance to generate speed and momentum before you add any resistance with the chisels.

I would be very surprised if Lapsharp didn't have nylon gears for drive, nothing wrong with either providing both are done right. Lapsharp advertises needle bearings as being more rugged than ball bearings, true. Toyota trucks have ball bearings on the rear axles, Ford uses roller which are needle on a larger scale, neither have problems, it just depends on how it's done. American made heavy duty motor??? So!

>I don't think that the bearings are a reason to buy the unit, but its just one indication of the quality that went into the design.

Yes, the MK2 angle changes as you change platters, it's deliberate, that's where the microbevel comes from. If you stay at the same angle your abrasives aren't lasting as long.

>A key selling feature of the lapsharp is that you don't need to grind a microbevel into your tools which makes the cutting edges stronger and less vulnerable to chipping according to the manufacturer. If you want to apply a microbevel you can though. What makes the abrasives wear evenly and last a long time on the lapsharp is that the tools are clamped into a jig/holder and as you sharpen the tool you slide it from side to side on the tool rest. You don't usually hold it in one place as the disk rotates.

Don't read too much into my post, I'm not saying the Lapsharp is inferior. It is no doubt superior to the MK2 although I have never used one. By the same token, I am getting the job done just fine with the MK2 and actually prefer to use stones in most cases. For my usage, the MK2 was a good investment, I'm not so sure the Lapsharp would be, YMMV though.

Gene

> It would be interesting to see what the resale value for the MKII will be compared to the Lapsharp after a year or so. I suspect that someone will be more willing to pay closer to the original price for a Lapsharp than a MKII. I was honest that when I bought my lapsharp I didn't know that much about it and I just wanted to jump start the process. It was a LOT of money for me and I seriously had my hesitations, but now I see the decision like buying a plane. Personally I own refurb'd sweetheart era Stanley planes. They do an acceptable job but they're no comparison to the quality, fit and performance of a Lie Nielsen plane. Eventually, if I stay with this hobby I'll have those and my Stanley's will be a down payment for each one I buy since I'm a user-not a collector. The good thing about this whole hobby of woodworking is that its for our enjoyment. We don't have to justify our purchases in the same way we do if we're doing it for business. It isn't a straight cost-payoff situation. To me, a big part of the payoff is if I enjoy and value the thing I buy.

Incidentally, I posted a question about the Lapsharp on another forum recently and received a PM from Don the owner directly offering to have their southern california rep meet with me and review my technique and answer any questions I may have about using it. As you've read, I don't think I'm alone in the excellent customer service I've gotten with the product and I can't remember the last time any company has contacted me in a direct way like that to follow up with me to make sure I'm happy with their product. From what I've heard I'm not alone in that experience and I know that if I had any problem with the system they'd make it right. Its a premium priced system sure and I think that especially for the people who don't blink to buy a $300+ Lie Nielsen plane or Japanese chisels or whatever, the price is not out of line for its performance.

[Gene Collison]

I'm talking about a reasonably large metal turning lathe, not a wood lathe. Don't underestimate belt drives, they are a very efficient means of power transfer, inexpensive, and very efficient. They are actually 98% efficient at transferring power. Gears are not, they can and do have big power losses, and are less efficient. And the design is simpler, and it ends up costing less. I'm absolutely certain that I can buy my MK2 belt at a number of places in this area in the event it breaks. If you have problems with your gear drive, your machine is done.
I used to have a Makita sharpener that I got rid of just because of the mess it made. I still have spots in my shop from the filthy swarth that it slung all
over my shop due to the water. Is the Lapsharp nice and clean to use like the MK2?

>>A key selling feature of the lapsharp is that you don't need to grind a microbevel into your tools which makes the cutting edges stronger and less vulnerable to chipping according to the manufacturer. If you want to apply a microbevel you can though. What makes the abrasives wear evenly and last a long time on the lapsharp is that the tools are clamped into a jig/holder and as you sharpen the tool you slide it from side to side on the tool rest. You don't usually hold it in one place as the disk rotates.<

Yes the Veritas works the same way, side to side using both sides of the disc, I do like the reversing feature though, I use a foot pedal with mine that I already had. With the Veritas you set the item in the fixture at the *exact* angle that you would like on your tool, no guess work, the accessories to do this are included with the tool. Microbevel's increase the strength of the tool, it doesn't weaken it as you stated. Any increase in grind angle increases strength. Doing it this way is faster because there is less time on the abrasives because you are not sharpening the total face of the tool to get where your going.
I don't know about the general availability or cost of Lapsharp abrasives, but LV is an awful good supplier to have on your side. The MK2 abrasives are very inexpensive and are available on a single sheet basis or you can even make your own. And I suppose I could even use Lapsharp abrasives if there was an advantage.
Resale, who cares? I paid $300 for mine and I doubt if if I have spent an addititional $40 for abrasives. I suspect I coulld sell mine for $250, maybe $225. I lost $75 if that's the case. You paid $600 for your, I doubt if you can get $450 for yours. How much have you spent on abrasives?

All of this belt, geardrive, microbevel, resale nonsense doesn't really matter. They both use the same principle of operation, a rotating disc with abrasives attached. Whether it runs at 200 or 500 rpm doesn't really make much difference unless your using water. nothing wrong with 500 dry, it's faster. I suspect the speed that the lapsharp operates was possibly more of across the counter gearbox availability and the use of water. If LV wanted to slow down the MK2, they could have used a smaller drive pulley, simple with belt drive. If your willing to pay double for the Lapsharp features as compared to the Veritas, that is OK. nothing wrong with that. I'm quite competent at sharpening with stones and for my purpose of owning a power sharpener the MK2 does the job very nicely. YMMV.

Gene

[Paul Comi]

[quote=Gene Collison]
I used to have a Makita sharpener that I got rid of just because of the mess it made. I still have spots in my shop from the filthy swarth that it slung all over my shop due to the water. Is the Lapsharp nice and clean to use like the MK2?

>The only time someone would use the reservoir and have continuous flowing lubricant is when they are sharpening carbide. Can you even sharpen carbide on a MKII? Actually, using any lubricant is optional and not necessary. It just extends the life of the abrasives. The lubricant I use is simply water with a bit of detergent soap and I use a spray bottle to mist the disk. There's no mess so I don't know what you're talking about with that one.

>>A key selling feature of the lapsharp is that you don't need to grind a microbevel into your tools which makes the cutting edges stronger and less vulnerable to chipping according to the manufacturer. If you want to apply a microbevel you can though. What makes the abrasives wear evenly and last a long time on the lapsharp is that the tools are clamped into a jig/holder and as you sharpen the tool you slide it from side to side on the tool rest. You don't usually hold it in one place as the disk rotates.<

Microbevel's increase the strength of the tool, it doesn't weaken it as you stated. Any increase in grind angle increases strength.

>I wasn't thinking clearly when I said the comment about the microbevel and if you want to grind and maintain a microbevel with the lapsharp you can but its not required.

I don't know about the general availability or cost of Lapsharp abrasives, but LV is an awful good supplier to have on your side. The MK2 abrasives are very inexpensive and are available on a single sheet basis or you can even make your own. And I suppose I could even use Lapsharp abrasives if there was an advantage.

>Ditto, in fact I've been thinking of picking up a psa disk with fairly rough grit to use the unit as a small precision disk sander and another to use as a polishing disk. With its very smooth and controlled operation it would be great for shaping and polishing small parts.

Resale, who cares? I paid $300 for mine and I doubt if if I have spent an addititional $40 for abrasives. I suspect I coulld sell mine for $250, maybe $225. I lost $75 if that's the case. You paid $600 for your, I doubt if you can get $450 for yours. How much have you spent on abrasives?

>I have no doubt I could sell mine on Ebay for at least $450 but we're both off in the weeds speculating about resale value.

I'm quite competent at sharpening with stones and for my purpose of owning a power sharpener the MK2 does the job very nicely. YMMV.

>If I were competent at sharpening that way, if I already had my tool collection together, and if they were in good shape already, I would not have bought the Lapsharp. For me it made perfect sense because I am at the start of a long learning curve between buying and fettling hand planes and eventually upgrading them as well as doing the same with chisels and lathe tools. I see myself doing a lot of refurb'ing and conditioning of tools in my future and this tool is a real efficient way to do that. If my tools were already in the range of usability and I just needed to touch them up with a stone to put a razor sharp edge back on them after they had already been "dialed in" I wouldn't have spent the money. Thanks for the dialog. I think that others considering their options are better off for it.

[Gene Collison]

>There's no mess so I don't know what you're talking about with that one. <

The one I seen at Japanwoodworker was so dirty it was almost unreckognizable. That's where that came from.

>>If I were competent at sharpening that way, if I already had my tool collection together, and if they were in good shape already, I would not have bought the Lapsharp. For me it made perfect sense because I am at the start of a long learning curve between buying and fettling hand planes and eventually upgrading them as well as doing the same with chisels and lathe tools. I see myself doing a lot of refurb'ing and conditioning of tools in my future and this tool is a real efficient way to do that. If my tools were already in the range of usability and I just needed to touch them up with a stone to put a razor sharp edge back on them after they had already been "dialed in" I wouldn't have spent the money. Thanks for the dialog. I think that others considering their options are better off for it.<

If your comfortable with your buying decision and like the product, that's all that is really important. I am comfortable with mine, I honestly don't see where the Lap-sharp would improve my tools in a way that would improve my work as compared to using the Veritas system. Incidentally, before this thread dies a natural death, did you know that you can sharpen a tool using the MK2 manual honing guide at a chosen angle say 30 degrees and take the tool to the MK2 power sharpener and the angles from the honing guide to the Veritas power sharpener will match. Nice feature!

Gene

[Chase Coman]

The back of the plane blade had to be flattened more than any blade I own and even with the most aggressive grit it was taking too long. This is a comment I've heard from other Lapsharp users that they wish there were more rough grits for the initial refurbishing work. I guess you could get a psa disk in a rough grit and buy an extra platen, but in these cases my 12" disk sander works well.
Hi Paul,
Addressing the issue of a more aggressive grit for the initial refurbishing work using the Lap-Sharp-we have 120,80,50 and 36 mesh available through our distributors. They are called Regalite. They are intended to be used when sharpening the planer/jointer knives with the P/J JIg.Their grit consistancy isn't as high as with the Regal (standard abrasives) but for the initial refurbishing they really work well. From that point you can move on to the Regal, higher grit consistancy abrasive for a finer finished edge. I wouldn't recommend any courser that 80 mesh and in fact have used it a number of times myself for "initial refurbishing." Single colored discs are also available.
You are correct about Rockler no longer carrying the Lap-Sharp. We decided that for now it wasn't a "good fit" and pulled our units in September. Our distributors are listed on our web site www.woodartistry.com (http://www.woodartistry.com)
We are committed to what we feel is a great sharpening system and great customer support. If you have questions, comments or need help-just ask that is what we are here for. That goes for everybody!:D

Chase Coman
National Sales Manager
Wood Artistry,L.L.C.

[Paul Comi]

I had a chance to try the 80 grit regalite today and that is the ticket for flattening a chisel or plane blade that isn't flat for sure. Previously, it could take some patience with the 120 grit regal paper, but the regalite is very efficient. I wouldn't use it very often, but like you said for the initial flattening and refurbing of a tool it works great.

[Jack Clark]

I'd like to bump this thread back into play, and hopefully some of the Lap Sharp and Veritas MkII Power Sharpener owners out there can comment on their good (and bad) experiences with their respective machines. I'm considering the purchase of a Lap Sharp. May even take a day trip over to Healdsberg to visit the Lap Sharp folks for a demo.

Thanks

[Will Blick]

Jack, i was confused when I read this thread, cause the price of the lap sharp was $599.. then I noticed the date was 05.... I hate when that happens...

Now the price is $800+ lots of accessories...

Of course there is much to consider here...such as, what do you want to sharpen? To what grit? How sensitive are you to spending time sharpening? budget? As you saw in the other thread, there is no one answer and there is always many ways to skin a cat in ww.

But a few general comments.

The reason I prefer stones after say 2000 grit...is because I want a freshly exposed abrasive surface for every use, which can be done with a good lapping plate. Very fast too. Next, I want the swarf removed as its coming off the blade, so the cut marks in the edge are from the abrasive, not the swarf.... a continuous drip over the stone makes this easy and effective. This might be possible on the Lap sharp as well, but it has been my experience, its harder to get the swarf off the paper vs. the stones... it floats very nice on the stones.....

With power machines, you sometimes don't have the same feel as a stone... specially when flattening the backs... a slight loss of the proper angle can dig right into the edge....

So from my experience, I think an excellent 1-2 punch is power sharpening for low grits, than put your money in good stones... which if this is the case, you can shift a lot of the dollars from the power machine to the stones.

Also, if you use A2 blades, I can tell you the Shapton new ceramic stones melt the metal like butter.... paper is more generic...

does this help any? Did you plan to do all your sharpening on the power machine? If so, I am sure as others have pointed out, this Lap Sharp seems like the best offering out there...

oh, the final point you should consider is.... what grit does the abrasives go to? I think stones go to a higher grit..... or maybe Lap Sharp does make 15k and 30k grit equivalents in paper?

[Don Naples]

But a few general comments.

The reason I prefer stones after say 2000 grit...is because I want a freshly exposed abrasive surface for every use, which can be done with a good lapping plate. Very fast too. Next, I want the swarf removed as its coming off the blade, so the cut marks in the edge are from the abrasive, not the swarf.... a continuous drip over the stone makes this easy and effective. This might be possible on the Lap sharp as well, but it has been my experience, its harder to get the swarf off the paper vs. the stones... it floats very nice on the stones.....

With power machines, you sometimes don't have the same feel as a stone... specially when flattening the backs... a slight loss of the proper angle can dig right into the edge....

oh, the final point you should consider is.... what grit does the abrasives go to? I think stones go to a higher grit..... or maybe Lap Sharp does make 15k and 30k grit equivalents in paper?


Will: I will answer a few of the questions you raised and provide a helpful hint to those who have experienced swarf issues. The Lap-Sharp uses Trizact abrasives (to 5 micron) which are apex structured and keep providing a new cutting edge as they wear. They are used wet, so the swarf that does not float off, will fall into the valley portions of the Trizact abrasive to later be washed off. For those who use microfinishing film (Aluminum Oxide) or wet or dry (Silicon Carbide) abrasive you can use a liquid cleaner such as Formula 409 as a lubricant to reduce the sticking of the swarf to the abrasive surface. From the testing we have done, this is only needed at 9 micron (~2000 grit) and finer for the Aluminum Oxide abrasives. SiC abrasives may need this help at coarser levels as the crystals are very friable and turn to powder quickly. We do not offer Silicon Carbide abrasives for use on the Lap-Sharp.

The Lap-Sharp design allows you to place the tool (such as a plane iron) on the surface and hold it in place prior to starting the rotation of the abrasive. The machine comes with a foot switch. This enables one to use both hands to hold the tool in place, thereby reducing the likelyhood of digging into the abrasive surface.

The Lap-Sharp abrasives we offer go to 1 micron (finer than JIS 8000 grit which is 1.2 micron). I have tested and had a few customers test 0.3 micron abrasives, but have not offered them for sale. I have not seen a benefit in using them and adding another step to the sharpening process. Others might disagree, and that is why they purchase these super fine stones. They may have some very good steel in their tools that will hold this fine an edge. We do offer a honing guide option that allows one to sharpen on the Lap-Sharp and without moving the tool in the guide, switch to a waterstone to finish the bevel edge, if the extra fine edge one achieves with these stones is desired.
Don Naples
Wood Artistry, L.L.C.
Manufacturer of the Lap-Sharp

[Will Blick]

Hi Don, thanks for the informative response....

Like most things in ww, its so hard to compare products unless you have them all in front of you at the same time :-)

Since I never used a Lap Sharp, I was only speculating about the swarf vs. the stones.... in the end, I assume its possible the LS will match the blade sharpness of good stones, as you say, up to 8k, which I agree is as sharp as 95% of ww will ever need to go.

Have you compared the edge of plane blades on the LS vs. some of the best stones? What is your findings?

How well does the LS sharpen 12" jointer blades?

[Don Naples]

Since I never used a Lap Sharp, I was only speculating about the swarf vs. the stones.... in the end, I assume its possible the LS will match the blade sharpness of good stones, as you say, up to 8k, which I agree is as sharp as 95% of ww will ever need to go.

Have you compared the edge of plane blades on the LS vs. some of the best stones? What is your findings?

How well does the LS sharpen 12" jointer blades?

The Lap-Sharp will produce a 1 micron edge with one of two 1 micron abrasives we offer. The difference I have seen when demonstrating the Lap-Sharp process is often the tools sharpened on a water stone are dubbed from not keeping the stone flat.

The testing we did was with many chisels and plane irons of many types, including cast steel (very nice), laminated Japanese steel tools, and the usual suspects, as well as some collectors types. We tested the abrasives and photographed the results usually at 200 power. This showed the edges we achieved. I work with many types of woods, so the ultimate goal was to take shavings on difficult grain patterns without getting tear-out. I posted a video on my website and Youtube, of some quilted maple being planed. The magnification is less subjective than taking shavings on a piece of wood.

Our Planer/Jointer jig will hold knives up to 25" in length. I have sharpened some of them to 5 micron edge though more frequently had stopped at 35 micron. I really liked the results I achieved at 5 micron, so since the knives are in the jig, I now take the extra time to hone them to the finer level. I have not done a side by side comparison to see how much the tearout (of difficult grains) is reduced.
Don

[Will Blick]

What is diam of the lap surface? where is the link for movie on Jointer blades....

Have you ever prepared a matrix comparing the MkII and the Lap Sharp, showing what the Lap Sharp is capable of that the MKII can not do? This is no knock on the MkII, it cost half the amount....but a side by side matrix would be nice... have you done such?

When you say 1 micron edge, can you be more specific? Does this mean 1 micron paper? There is an odd translation between paper grit and stone grit.... what basis are you using?