Talk to me about saws

[Steve Kaminska]

So this week's project was a rack to hold various spools of wire taking up space all over my garage. It was pretty simple, 4 boards to form an open box, slots cut into the sides to receive dowels which hold the spools, and a french cleat across the back. Inspired by James Pallas' hand tool speed thread, I kept an eye on the clock to see how long this project took. It took 7 hours and 15 minutes total, which I thought was pretty good, especially considering: A) much of the design was done on the fly, by physically placing the spools on the boards and marking from there, and B) I'm not in a hurry when woodworking, I do it for relaxation.

In my post-game analysis, I identified two areas that I felt were unnecessarily slow; planing end-grain, and making rip cuts.

About my saws: When I started this hobby, I knew that I couldn't cut in a straight line if my life depended on it, so I wasn't about to run out and waste money on nice saws. Instead I bought a Stanley Sharp Tooth 20 inch saw for dimensioning, and a little Marples Japanese-style saw for joinery. One day something clicked and I could suddenly saw straight and square. I felt finally that the Marples saw was holding me back, not my ability, and treated myself to a Veritas dovetail saw. My joinery improved immensely with the Veritas saw.

On to the Stanley... It is a crosscut pattern, and I can crosscut through an 8-inch wide 4/4 Poplar board in about 30 seconds. Again, I'm in no hurry, so for another point of reference, the saw moves through about 1/2 (or a bit more) of material with each push stroke. However, when ripping, I'm lucky to get 1/4 inch per stroke. I estimate I spent an hour or more making the 5 rip cuts that this project required; If I could rip at the same rate that I crosscut, that time would have been reduced to 15 minutes or less. I've decided its time for a dedicated rip saw.

Sorry for the ramble, now for the questions!

Can I expect the same sort of performance from a similarly toothed rip saw? In other words, the Stanley is 8 tpi, will an 8 tpi rip saw move through 1/2 or so per stroke? Or is ripping just a slower method of sawing, and I need a coarser toothed saw to move at the same speed?

Rather than buy another new saw, I have several old warranted superior saws given to me by my father-in-law. All are in need of a good clean-up and sharpening. My plan is to learn how to sharpen using these saws (I'll have to learn eventually anyway,) and give myself a rip saw in the process. I've read several threads about saw sharpening, and watched a few Youtube videos... but I'm still a bit confused about rake angles, fleam, etc... Are there any idiot-proof tutorials out there? Or, dare I ask, any good advice for a novice sharpener?

[Brandon Speaks]

Its not bad to have rip saws in a few different tooth sizes, my rougher one is 5.5 and cuts faster than my x-cut saw x-cut. Smaller tooth are slower but cut cleaner.

Filing a saw rip is pretty easy, close to zero rake and zero fleam. X-cut is much harder to do. An x-cut can be made rip in a few file strokes.

[Jim Koepke]

A crosscut saw is usually pretty poor at ripping. Crosscut teeth are filed to cut across the wood fibers. When they cut in the same direction as the fibers they sort of just slide along with them.

Rip filed teeth are like little chisels severing the wood fibers and ripping them away. A rip saw can cut well when used to cross cut. It usually leaves a bit rougher surface depending on the tooth count and the set.

One of the members here also has a fine site with information on saw sharpening:

www.vintagesaws.com

On the left side of the screen is a menu of saws. Click on the Library for the good stuff. Currently there is a server error, that should be back up soon.

Here is another site with such information:

http://norsewoodsmith.com/?q=content/sharpening-hand-saws

With several saws to choose from you have an opportunity to try different filings. Especially if a few of the saws have the same tooth count. Try different rake angles to see which works better for you.

jtk

[Mike Baker 2]

Do it. There are several videos online that will teach you how. Wood by Wright has a good one, but there are several. I sharpened a rip cut saw on my first try. It cuts like a scalded cat. I know I probably got a few of the teeth "wrong" technically, but it cuts straight, true and like butter. Mine is 8ppi, and leaves a pretty nice edge.
It is well worth your time to clean up one of those Warranted Superiors and give it new life. For rip, IMO pick the longest blade you've got.

[Stew Denton]

Steve,

A couple of thoughts. First, your Stanley saw is designed to cut extremely fast, compared to a standard cross cut saw. However, there is of course no free lunch. They are not designed to make smooth finish cuts. Even a very sharp 8 point cross cut saw with a standard tooth sharpening will cut quickly, but not that quickly. A very sharp 12 point finish cross cut will cut even more slowly. Back when I was carpentering we used an 8 pt CC for framing and a 10 or 12 point CC for finish work. I had a 4&1/2 point rip, and a 7 point rip, the 7 point for finish work.

So, you are looking at a comparison that really isn't a very apples to apples comparison. If you were ripping a 4/4 poplar piece of lumber with 2 or 3 point rip saw it would cut fairly quickly, which would be a little closer to an apples to apples comparison to your Stanley, but I would not want to use such a saw for fine woodworking as the cut would be pretty rough. On the other hand if you make a comparison of say an 8 point standard crosscut saw vs a 5&1/2 point rip saw, or a 12 point crosscut saw with a 7 point rip, you have a more equivalent comparison.

My experience with those comparisons is that the crosscuts cut more quickly than he rip saws, that is in doing the cuts that they were designed to do. In other words, the crosscut saw cutting across the grain compared to the rip saw employed in a rip cut. Jim explained the "why" that this is the case in his post up above.

Neither of these will cut a quickly as the saw you describe.

However, I can tell you that trying to do ripping with a cross cut saw is a slow and painful task. A rip saw will cross cut far better than a crosscut saw will rip. When ripping with a cross cut saw, the saw easily wanders away from the line you are trying to cut to, and cuts very slowly.

In short, yes, convert at least one of those cross cut saws you have into a rip saw. For me a 4&1/2 or 5 point rip is for rough work or for thick stock. A 7 point rip is good for finish work. I think it is good to have one of each. Will it cut as quickly as your Stanley cross cuts.....no, but I think it will be a big improvement over what you experienced.

One other thought, you do woodworking for enjoyment. I can tell you it is a LOT more pleasant to rip with an actual rip saw than to use a cross cut saw to rip with.

Stew

[Stewie Simpson]

One of the important factors that can influence speed of cut is volume within the gullets. Where the ppi and forward rake angle is already determined, the volume within the gullets can be further inhanced by the addition of crosscut fleam. As an example, the following is a 7 ppi handsaw freshly sharpened to a rip tooth profile. (nil fleam)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0030_zpsnuz51cp2.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0030_zpsnuz51cp2.jpg.html)

After completing 3 x20 full strokes of the saw on a test board of Aust. Jarrah, the rip teeth were then refiled with crosscut fleam.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0027_zpsnu4xodxc.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0027_zpsnu4xodxc.jpg.html)

The same 3x20 full strokes of the saw were again repeated, and the following shows the difference gained in speed of cut by increasing gullet volume.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0028_zpsdoxzjqen.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0028_zpsdoxzjqen.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0029_zpszzpha68n.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0029_zpszzpha68n.jpg.html)

[James Pallas]

Steve my take is like this. 3 to 6 for rip, 5 to 8 for cross cuts. 6 to 10 gets into the controversial panel saws. Above 10 are finish saws. I have used very few of the newer do everything saws and probably haven't touched one newer than the 1990s. I was not impressed. Of late I have taken to using Japanese saws. Because of back issues I can't saw on a saw bench any longer. I much prefer western saws, most likely because I used them more.
Jim

[Jeff L Jump]

Perhaps this is not applicable, but nobody has mentioned this so I will. On your Stanley saw, are the teeth induction hardened? Many saws today the teeth are induction hardened and not suitable for resharpening. The teeth are too hard for the file to cut. Induction hardened teeth appear blackened or blued. I did a quick web search of these saws, some have hardened teeth, some don't. YMMV.

JJ

[Jim Koepke]

After completing 3 x20 full strokes of the saw on a test board of Aust. Jarrah, the rip teeth were then refiled with crosscut fleam.

How many degrees of fleam?

My experience is a little bit of fleam can help a rip saw. Enough fleam for a smooth cutting crosscut saw diminishes the ability to rip. One of my small saws has 5º fleam with the same rake. It cuts fairly well rip or crosscut.

jtk

[Mike Baker 2]

How many degrees of fleam?

My experience is a little bit of fleam can help a rip saw. Enough fleam for a smooth cutting crosscut saw diminishes the ability to rip. One of my small saws has 5º fleam with the same rake. It cuts fairly well rip of crosscut.

jtk

I have a small cross cut panel saw. Think I will file it rip, and then give 'er about 5 degree of fleam. What could it hurt?
Thanks for the idea.

[lowell holmes]

How many degrees of fleam?

My experience is a little bit of fleam can help a rip saw. Enough fleam for a smooth cutting crosscut saw diminishes the ability to rip. One of my small saws has 5º fleam with the same rake. It cuts fairly well rip or crosscut.

jtk

Showoff!:)

[Stewie Simpson]

How many degrees of fleam?

My experience is a little bit of fleam can help a rip saw. Enough fleam for a smooth cutting crosscut saw diminishes the ability to rip. One of my small saws has 5º fleam with the same rake. It cuts fairly well rip or crosscut.

jtk

Jim; I applied a 15 degrees fleam angle.

[Stewie Simpson]

A replacement handle for this saw is underway.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0032_zpsk1vyaxbn.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0032_zpsk1vyaxbn.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0033_zpswisvazap.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/unidentified%20saw%20maker/DSC_0033_zpswisvazap.jpg.html)

[steven c newman]

Maybe try this stye, instead?
385062
26" long, 10 ppi, skew back..iron/steel bolts
385063
I haven't been able to work on them tiny teeth...but..
385064
The saw as is leave a glass-like cut. Just wish I know who MADE the saw...

[Stewie Simpson]

Steven; have a look at pages 52 - 54 in the following 1922 Hibbard,Spenser,Bartlett & Co Catalogue.

https://archive.org/details/HibbardSpencerBartlettCatalogNo69

[Patrick Chase]

Jim; I applied a 15 degrees fleam angle.

Are you talking about fleam or slope here?

The reason I ask is because the gullet volume increase you cited in post 6 is most easily attained by increasing slope. Isaac covers this a bit in the articles on his site (which I know you've read).

A rip saw with 15 degrees of slope can be a very nice thing IMO.

There is no such thing as a rip saw with 15 degrees of fleam, because that's a crosscut saw by definition.

[Jim Koepke]

Are you talking about fleam or slope here?

The reason I ask is because the gullet volume increase you cited in post 6 is most easily attained by increasing slope. Isaac covers this a bit in the articles on his site (which I know you've read).

A rip saw with 15 degrees of slope can be a very nice thing IMO.

There is no such thing as a rip saw with 15 degrees of fleam, because that's a crosscut saw by definition.

That was kind of my thought on this but thought it maybe better to just let it go.

jtk

[Steve Kaminska]

I spent this week digging most of my saws out of the abyss that is my garage...

385350


From right to left (since SMC flipped my picture for some reason) we have:

An obvious recent Nicholson, 9 tpi, with an absolutely terrible handle. This saw is still reasonably sharp, I'm going to try it as is.

A warranted superior with 8 tpi, this handle has wheat grain carving, and comes the closest to fitting my hand.

An actual Disston! (Yay!) Except according to the Disstonian Institute, this one was made after the company was sold. 5 1/2 tpi, the wheat motif on the handle is carved.

A Craftsman warranted superior. Plywood handle, with painted on wheat. Also 8 tpi.

Last is the most interesting, it has a skewed back, and 11 tpi. I thought the handle might have been homemade, until I found a similar saw on the Disstonian Institute which was labelled as a pruning saw.

I think what I have is a timeline of my wife's grandfather's home improvement purchases. Every ten years or so, his saw would "get dull" and he would go get a new one. Being a child of the Depression, he never threw anything away. I'm going to de-rust all of them, and start learning to sharpen on the Disston. I figure with the biggest teeth, it will be the easiest.

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Steve,


You've asked a great question that is super relevant to many people interested in hand tool woodworking: "how much does it really matter to have a handsaw that is specifically designed/sharpened/tuned for specific task, and will such a saw make a significant difference in speed, accuracy and the quality of the sawn surface?"


Short answer is unequivocally yes! Using a saw, that has been specifically designed/sharpened/tuned/set up for a specific task makes a huge difference in speed/accuracy/finish quality. Improvement in performance for us all like this is likely significantly more than one would expect, especially if you've never had the opportunity to try one.


I've been a hand tool woodworker for 20 years (no tablesaw, bandsaw for ripping/resawing), but I wouldn't ask you to take my word for it. The more persuasive evidence I would offer is the broad range of different, specifically designed/configured saws used by preindustrial woodworker's. Before we get to the specifics/
configurations of saws in the typical saw nest of the preindustrial woodworker, I would suggest that at the risk of sounding like a complete blowhard/know it all, perhaps a bit of woodworking history is helpful:


Preindustrial woodworker's made their living building the homes, ships, commercial buildings and furniture of the preindustrial era. Their livelihood depended upon their ability to quickly/accurately/cost-effectively produce desired results, and not surprisingly they were extremely discerning purchasers/users of hand saws.


These hand tool woodworker's represented virtually 100% of the market from 1840 and 1945, and their demand for the best possible tools needed to feed their families drove the development and manufacture of arguably the best hand saws ever produced. I know that probably sounds like some kind of "nostalgic over appreciation of the past", but I would submit is absolutely evidence-based.


The technologies/techniques used to produce saws during the Golden era of 1840 – 1945, are largely, if not completely, absent from full-size hand saws manufactured since 1950. These include: double taper ground plates that are thinner at the top line and the toe versus along the tooth line, hand tensioning with hammer and anvil of saw plates to produce straight, stiff plates, the use of high-quality spring steel specifically manufactured for the purpose and expert sharpening/setting/tuning by experienced professionals.


Of course the specifics for preindustrial workers varied by profession, but in general they included: 4 – 5 PPI, 26 – 28" rip saw, 26", 7 – 8 PPI crosscut saw for dimensioning raw lumber and 24-26" ,10 – 12 PPI for finished crosscuts. Beyond these 3 basic saws, individual trades added additional saws specific to their specific needs; like 5 PPI crosscuts for timber framers, 7 – 8 PPI rip saws for cabinet maker/finish carpenter's etc.


Sorry for the soapbox – all of this is to say I'm confident you'll be surprisingly pleased how much using an appropriate handsaw improves the fun and productivity of your hand tool woodworking. I strongly encourage you to learn to sharpen vintage saws for dedicated tasks. A helpful first step might be to purchase an "best in class" example from someone that like Pete Taran (vintage saws.com) or Darrell Weir (old saws restored.com), to give your reference for what you're shooting for.


Important disclaimer: IMHO, my argument about the distinct, unique advantages of vintage saws doesn't apply to backed, joinery saws currently manufactured by many of the excellent toolmakers working today, because these attributes (like taper grinding and hand tensioning, etc.) aren't necessary/relevant.


Sorry if my comment sound like a rant. I'm particularly passionate about this subject because discovering the benefits of premium, vintage saws specifically sharpened/tuned/configured for specific tasks is the major reason I realized that woodworking was possible without a shop full of expensive, stationary power tools.


There are many others here on SMC that are far more knowledgeable on the subject that I am and I hope they'll comment, likely in a far more cogent way than me.


All the best, Mike