Some saw accident numbers

[Gary Liming]

A while back in 2009, the Consumer Product Safety Commission did a study about tablesaw accidents that I thought had some interesting facts in it. Before I go any further, though, let me be clear I am not a safety nazi, you are certainly free to use your tools any way you want. These are just statistics, and only describe what happens in large numbers of incidents - they say nothing about any future single accident. Nevertheless, I just thought this was some good food for thought.

They had data available from hospital emergency rooms over 2007 and 2008. Over that period, the total number of table/bench powersaw accidents that were treated in emergency rooms was estimated to be 79,500. (The reason it is an estimate is because many accidents were just reported as "powersaw" accidents, so they the took the tablesaw/bench saw ratio and multiplied that by the number of unspecified ones and added that to the ones reported to get a total for tablesaws/bench saws.) Note these numbers do not include circular saws, bandsaws, radial arm saws, and mitre saws.

The average age of those treated was 55.4 years, (the range was 11 to 94) and 97.4 percent were male - not too surprising.

Of those accidents that reported the type of saw, 68.7 percent involved cabinet saws, 18.3 percent contractor saws, and 10.5 percent bench saws.

78.8 percent of the saws did not have a safety switch, 75.0 percent of the saws had the blade guard removed, 20.4 per cent had a riving knife in use, and 24.4 per cent had a kickback pawl in use. In 85.7 percent of the cases, the saw was doing a rip cut.

In 40.5 percent of the accidents the stock jumped or kickbacked. When stock kickback caused the injury, the operator’s hand was pulled into the saw in 65.2 percent of those cases.

The motor was running in 94.5 percent of the cases (!) and a pushstick was used in 35.6 percent.

Anyway, just thought those were some interesting numbers. You can look at the report yourself by clicking here. (https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/statsaws.pdf)

[John Redford]

I would be most concerned with the 5.5% who were injured without the saw running.

[Gary Liming]

I hear you, but I know of someone who simply tripped over an extension cord and hit his head against the corner of his table saw.
He wasn't treated in the ER, though - he went straight to the morgue. Tragic, freak accident.

[John C Cox]

The last wood working club I was in was fairly nuts about saw safety... While I was there - I know at least 1 member was kicked out of the club for chronic saw safety misconduct issues... But - it was for good reason and it's not like he was not warned and stopped over and over and over.. At some point, you gotta pull the plug on somebody - let them kill themselves at their house, not the club shop.... And I have witnessed that following good practices generally means the difference between a bruise and a horrible accident....

And I can tell you - I know crazy stupid insane stuff does happen (like a fellow OD'ing on diabetes medicine and passing out while working) - but nobody is going to the hospital due to a saw mistake on my watch if I can help it...

[Carlos Alvarez]

Things like that are why we can't take raw numbers and draw conclusions. Gary, I really like how you made that point at the beginning of your post. So few people realize that. "Alcohol was a factor in X% of traffic accidents" becomes meaningless when you realize it includes a guy being rear-ended by a sober person, but the victim had two drinks.

Similarly we can't draw any conclusions from, say, the use of a riving knife or not. We know most accidents involved a saw without them. But without knowing how many people were NOT injured while using a saw without one, it has no meaning. It could actually turn out that as a rate, more accidents happen with one (unlikely, but possible). Likewise, did you know that motorcyclists wearing helmets are MUCH more likely to end up with a long hospital stay, physical therapy, and even long term injuries as compared to non-helmeted riders?

I have a pretty firm belief that poorly-tuned saws cause most accidents. Ever since going to a very obsessive tuning process, I have had zero incidents or even near-incidents. Absolutely no drama. But nobody is able to track well-tuned saws versus maladjusted ones.

[glenn bradley]

I am in favor of removing all injuries caused by failure to use good safety practices from the statistics and running the numbers again since these are NOT ACCIDENTS ;)

[Carlos Alvarez]

I am in favor of removing all injuries caused by failure to use good safety practices from the statistics and running the numbers again since these are NOT ACCIDENTS ;)

How would you do that? Who would decide what is or is not a good safety practice? Some are obvious, some are not. There's disagreement on some details.

I hate calling traffic collisions "accidents" because it really involves negligence almost every time. And there's no such thing as an accidental discharge of a firearm causing injury; you violated multiple CLEAR safety rules. For tools, some rules are not so clear and obvious.

But you make a good point, most bad events aren't accidents, they are negligence.

[Scott Brader]

I'm not trying to turn this into another SS Lovers vs SS Haters thread, but I suspect that if the data also included the brand of saw involved; some percentage of the injured parties were using a SawStop brand saw.

It's easy to draw conclusions that are not necessarily supported by the data if we approach it with a certain bent.

I'm struggling with this decision myself right now. I am ready to pull the trigger on a new 3 HP saw for my home shop. I've "pretty much" decided on a Grizzly G0690, but I still struggle. I (personal opinion only!) have a high level of disdain for much of what I have read of Mr. Gass' attempts to force his technology on other manufacturers and I can't support his company. That said, I guess it really isn't his company any more, but my understanding is that he still owns the patents on the intellectual property of the safety system.

I used to work in EMS, so I know all about the catastrophic injuries our tools can cause. I also know that I have been using table saws since 8th grade without a single incident.

I find myself in a quandary...

Scott

[Dave Richards]

I would be most concerned with the 5.5% who were injured without the saw running.

My only tablesaw-related injury happened when the saw wasn't running. In fact it wasn't plugged in and there was no blade installed. I was cleaning the goo off the cast iron top of my new saw using paper towels soaked with mineral spirits. As I was wiping out one of the miter gauge slots I got a couple of cuts in the tip of my index finger from burs left in the slot by the machining process. Of course I didn't go to the ER or report the injury. Mineral spirits in an open wound stings. I uttered a few bad words and cleaned up the burs before continuing to clean the saw. :D

[Carlos Alvarez]

but I suspect that if the data also included the brand of saw involved; some percentage of the injured parties were using a SawStop brand saw.


The original post had this:

"78.8 percent of the saws did not have a safety switch"

I *assume* that means the others were a Saw Stop? Dunno, what else could "safety switch" mean here? At the same time, someone could have been injured while tripping over the Saw Stop's cord, and it would count as a Saw Stop related injury.

[Mikail Khan]

Safety switch may be a large paddle type switch you can bump off.

MK

[Carlos Alvarez]

Safety switch may be a large paddle type switch you can bump off.

MK

Very possible also, although that would be unlikely to help, I think. I get the impression that TS injuries happen in a split second.

[Rod Sheridan]

That was my only injury on a cabinet saw.

I was cutting tenons using the tenoning jig.

I looked down and there was a large pool of blood on the saw.

I checked and I still had all my digits and didn't feel anything, I couldn't determine where the blood was coming from until I fully extended my fingers and it began spraying from the palm of my hand.

I had cut myself on a piece of chrome plating that had partially come off the handwheel on the jig, and was razor sharp. It had cut about 3mm deep along my palm, with no resulting pain.

The saw wasn't running when I clamped the piece in the jig and sliced myself.

No, I didn't report the accident...........Regards, Rod.

[Matt Day]

I give this thread another 12 hours before it gets locked.

[Rod Sheridan]

Likewise, did you know that motorcyclists wearing helmets are MUCH more likely to end up with a long hospital stay, physical therapy, and even long term injuries as compared to non-helmeted riders?

I have a pretty firm belief that poorly-tuned saws cause most accidents. Ever since going to a very obsessive tuning process, I have had zero incidents or even near-incidents. Absolutely no drama. But nobody is able to track well-tuned saws versus maladjusted ones.

Yes, more riders with helmets have longer hospital stays, as a former riding instructor I know why, they survive the initial collision.

Similarly we know from industrial accidents that lack of guards is the major factor in entanglement incidents.

Note, not accidents as I have only seen one industrial accident in 40 years, however I have been involved in the investigation of many incidents.

Regards, Rod.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Yes, more riders with helmets have longer hospital stays, as a former riding instructor I know why, they survive the initial collision.

Similarly we know from industrial accidents that lack of guards is the major factor in entanglement incidents.

Note, not accidents as I have only seen one industrial accident in 40 years, however I have been involved in the investigation of many incidents.

Regards, Rod.

Entanglement as in getting clothing and other personally worn items sucked into a machine? That fear is why I HATE working in long sleeves. If I have to when it's cold, it's only a long-sleeve t-shirt with a tight cuff.

[Gary Liming]

Hey, I didn't mean to cause anyone grief. Just thought those numbers were interesting - if somebody doesn't think its interesting, don't they just move on, like with all other threads?

[Gary Liming]

Safety switch may be a large paddle type switch you can bump off.

MK

I think that's what they were talking about. Don't think SS was much of a category in 2007, was it?

[Carlos Alvarez]

Hey, I didn't mean to cause anyone grief. Just thought those numbers were interesting - if somebody doesn't think its interesting, don't they just move on, like with all other threads?

I'm not sure why you say that? We seem to be having a good discussion based on what you said. I not only found it very interesting and useful here, I posted on another forum regarding a different but also interesting view of stats.

[Gary Liming]

I'm not sure why you say that? We seem to be having a good discussion based on what you said. I not only found it very interesting and useful here, I posted on another forum regarding a different but also interesting view of stats.

Just responding to Matt who thought the thread would get shut down.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Just responding to Matt who thought the thread would get shut down.

Yeah, I didn't understand that post, so I ignored it... :D

[Nick Decker]

Gary, I thought the breakdown of the stats was interesting, too. Thanks for posting.

Apparently, when safety comes up here there are always those who tie it to SawStop, then all hell breaks loose and the thread gets shut down. Matt was just predicting the lifespan of this one.

[Jed Hefley]

I appreciate the post. It makes good reading. Following that, I work for a company that is heavily dependent on a good safety culture. We have meetings every day, and full blown sit-downs every Friday. A big thing here is the whole "take safety home" premise. I can honestly say that I have taken it to heart. I don't like getting injured in the shop at work, or at home. As a hobby woodworker, I've learned a few things in my home shop. Most notably, make sure your outfeed from your table saw is free of clutter/debris/whatever. I made the mistake one time, and got a 2' wide piece of plywood straight to the ole twig and berries. Not fun at all. Contributing factors are that my old saw does not have any guards (kickback/riving knife), and crap on the outfeed table. I've since made sure the table is clear before making any rip cuts.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Nothing like getting to 3/4 of your cut and deciding:

Do you push hard, knock everything off the table, and possibly precipitate a kick?

Stop, hit the off button, and leave awful marks on the wood?

Try to back out without getting a kick?

Yell "mommy" and hope she's listening?

[Brian Holcombe]

Injuries with the motor off are likely those that happen while the blade is spinning down. I understood that the mechanical brake on my jointer/planer is for that safety reason.

[John C Cox]

Right. This "Safety switch" has nothing specific to do with Saw Stop - it's simply referring to an E-stop push-button or paddle switch of some sort....

How many old tools and machines have I seen which were widow makers... An itty bitty off switch that was made to stay turned on if bumped....

[Roy Turbett]

I have a pretty firm belief that poorly-tuned saws cause most accidents. Ever since going to a very obsessive tuning process, I have had zero incidents or even near-incidents. Absolutely no drama. But nobody is able to track well-tuned saws versus maladjusted ones.

I don't necessarily agree that poorly tuned saws cause most accidents, but it is certainly a contributing factor. This is especially true with radial arm saws where the overall quality of the saw also comes into play. Fine tuning a saw doesn't do much good if it won't stay in alignment.

[Phillip Gregory]

I read the report. Since it is written in the style of an academic paper (although it is not as it is not peer reviewed), let me review it as such.

Strengths
- They called the individuals who were noted by the ED physician to have suffered an injury from a saw and asked them a detailed battery of questions rather than relying on a chart review. This is a strength because the level of detail they asked would never be put in a chart note by an ED physician as you would have to have an ED physician who is an expert woodworker (to even know to ask these questions) and most of they information they sought would have been not required to properly treat the injured patient and thus a waste of time, money, and "chart bloat" if the ED physician did try to collect it and document it.
- They noted that different types of saws exist and different injury mechanisms exist rather than just counting "number of saw injuries."
- The report indicated those that wrote it had at least modest knowledge of the operations undertaken on saws and the different types of tablesaws that exist.

Weaknessess
- The survey relied upon the ED physician to add in an optional diagnosis code to specify mechanism of injury in addition to the injury diagnosis code itself. Adding in a mechanism code is often not required and going through the extra effort to add in extra codes when not required is often not done as it wastes time and does not affect patient care or reimbursement. Thus they likely missed a large number of saw-related injuries because they were simply coded as the injury type. There's no way the CPSC actually read millions of charts with injuries that could possibly be caused by saws to see if there was any mention of a saw as the cause of the injury.
- Even if the ED physician did go through the trouble of adding in the mechanism code, they are not specific. The best they could do in 2007-2008 with ICD-9 was to differentiate between powered hand tools (E920.1), "other" hand tools (E920.4), and "other specified cutting and piercing instruments and objects" (E920.8). All of the stationary saws would have been coded E920.8, which would have included a bunch of other equipment from an ear piercing gun to a die cutter to a drill press. ICD-10 is slightly better as it can differentiate between powered vs. nonpowered woodworking and forming machines (and nonwoodworking machines) but in many places mechanism codes are still not required.
- The response rate was extremely low at about 5% of the total number of injuries identified. Such a low response rate significantly risks the surveyed sample not being a representative sample of those injured.

My personal experiences in working in healthcare are pretty similar to the CPSC study. Circular bladed saw injuries are typically a man right around Medicare age ripping on a tablesaw with no guard in his own shop, and he touches the blade with the leading (index) or trailing (pinky) finger feeding stock by hand. Kickback is uncommon but often results in blunt-force injuries to the chest wall. Chainsaws cut a lot of people's thighs or lower legs, and a surprising number of people "joint" the end of their right ring finger and pinky in a jointer, but I saw a lot of the latter primarily as I worked in an area with a large employer in the area whose wood products factory used a large number of jointers. Women rarely come in with saw injuries and younger men with saw injuries are nearly always construction workers injured on the job. Tox screens are positive frequently, but surprisingly few are drunk, and the higher the scumbag ratio (number of tattoos / number of natural teeth), the higher the likelihood of a dirty tox screen, with an infinite ratio nearly always being dirty for something (usually weed plus the nationwide "epidemic" drug du jour.) Many construction workers injured by saws are also not on worker's comp as they were working illegally under the table. Again the higher the scumbag ratio or if they are on Medicaid, the higher the probability of working under the table.

[Mike Kees]

The observation that I see from the original post is how many poor practices were combined in each injury. No riving knife,no push stick,no guard and 85% of incidents happen while ripping. It appears to me that most users would be far safer with a proper push stick,guard installed and riving knife.I was very fortunate to have an extremely good shop teacher that ingrained good technique and form and absolutely insisted on safe practices. These things were drilled into us, a practice I now pass on to my employees and son.Mike.

[Martin Wasner]

I would be most concerned with the 5.5% who were injured without the saw running.

You laugh, I cut the crap outta my finger a few months ago waxing a saw top. I caught the dado head just right and ripped my stupid finger wide open.

[Darcy Warner]

You laugh, I cut the crap outta my finger a few months ago waxing a saw top. I caught the dado head just right and ripped my stupid finger wide open.

I ripped a gash in my back climbing out from under a gomad saw. That hurt.

[Martin Wasner]

I ripped a gash in my back climbing out from under a gomad saw. That hurt.

Luckily we work hard, cause we ain't too bright

[Steve Demuth]

I am in favor of removing all injuries caused by failure to use good safety practices from the statistics and running the numbers again since these are NOT ACCIDENTS ;)

Glenn and Carlos: "Accidental" doesn't mean that an event was not preventable, it means that it was unintended and unexpected. Careless and heedless people have more accidents as a result, but those events are still accidents.

Right now I have a massive bruise on my thigh resulting from a fall from a collapsing ladder onto a very hard surface. It was not intended, nor did I expect the ladder to collapse. It was entirely preventable, however. I merely needed to check that the third leg of the ladder was firmly embedded in receptive soil that would prevent it moving. I didn't, and thus through my own inattention to a safety detail I fully understand, climbed the ladder thinking it was stable when that leg was in fact on ice covered by a very thin layer of soil. The result was an unintended and definitely unexpected - accidental, by the definition of the word - fall (which, and I am quite grateful to fate for this, probably should have, but didn't break this older gentleman's leg).

[Rod Sheridan]

Entanglement as in getting clothing and other personally worn items sucked into a machine? That fear is why I HATE working in long sleeves. If I have to when it's cold, it's only a long-sleeve t-shirt with a tight cuff.

Yes, or sticking your finger in a saw blade.

I should perhaps have worded it differently..............Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Scott, as a previous EMS person, you would well familiar with the range of saw injuries.

That said, your personal view of Mr. Gass should be irrelevant, the only relevant issue with the SS consideration is "does it significantly reduce the risk of saw contact injuries"?

As you're well aware, previous lack of an incident has no effect on the probability of a future incident, being lucky and safe in the past is not a predictor of the future.

As you're well aware, the SS does reduce the significance of an injury, so the decision isn't really a decision at all, as there are no other commonly available solutions except the SS.

Give yourself the added protection and hope that you're safe enough to never try it out..........Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

The observation that I see from the original post is how many poor practices were combined in each injury. No riving knife,no push stick,no guard and 85% of incidents happen while ripping. It appears to me that most users would be far safer with a proper push stick,guard installed and riving knife.I was very fortunate to have an extremely good shop teacher that ingrained good technique and form and absolutely insisted on safe practices. These things were drilled into us, a practice I now pass on to my employees and son.Mike.

Bingo!!

That's why industrial accidents are infrequent.

Proper training, supervision, work practices and the use of proper guards and safety devices.....Regards, Rod.

P.S. In an industrial setting, the supervisor will continuously perform informal spot checks on employees for proper work actions. This is as simple as walking around occasionally and watching someone for a moment.

There are also formal work inspections that are performed less frequently.

The other extremely important item is the documenting of, and learning from "near miss" incidents. These are extremely valuable items as they prevent future injuries through the elimination of hazards you were simply lucky to avoid once.

[glenn bradley]

My only tablesaw-related injury happened when the saw wasn't running. In fact it wasn't plugged in and there was no blade installed. I was cleaning the goo off the cast iron top of my new saw using paper towels soaked with mineral spirits. As I was wiping out one of the miter gauge slots I got a couple of cuts in the tip of my index finger from burs left in the slot by the machining process. Of course I didn't go to the ER or report the injury. Mineral spirits in an open wound stings. I uttered a few bad words and cleaned up the burs before continuing to clean the saw. :D

I also experienced an injury while the saw wasn't running. I failed to lower the blade when I started using the saw top as a work area. I reached for something and poked my finger right into a waiting carbide tooth. Made a nice, clean puncture in the top of my middle finer. After singing the necessary "I'm a dork" anthem and doing the "ow-wee" dance, I lowered the blade and moved on.

I wasn't trying to get on a soapbox folks. Like Carlos observes, many of the numbers that contribute to making a particular tool look bad are tainted statistics. The tablesaw didn't jump up and bite you. The blade is right where it always is. The human is the unpredictable moving part in many tool operations :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Glenn, I shouldn't laugh however your description of the "I'm a dork" and the "ow-wee dance" made me laugh.

I could see myself doing exactly the same thing...............Regards, Rod.

[Carlos Alvarez]

The tablesaw didn't jump up and bite you. The blade is right where it always is. The human is the unpredictable moving part in many tool operations :)

LOL, it's like being hit by a train. Come on, there are LINES telling you where it will be, and you should not be.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Anyone else skeptical about the numbers of injuries from saws? Just as a comparison, gun injuries were reportedly 31,000 for around 300,000,000 guns in the states (according to a Google) 80,000 injuries for 9,500,000 tablesaws (also from a Google) seems fishy to me.

Note, only using guns as a relatable comparison, nothing political intended.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I don't think it's relatable at all. Nobody is using guns for hours at a time every day. Wearing, sure, but not actively using. Also the injury numbers for guns, last time I looked, included stupid things like suicides which are no accident. They even included shooting a criminal. So a useless number.

[Scott Brader]

I don't think their methodology for determining the number of injuries attributable to table saws was very scientific. They surmised that the ratio of known saw injuries must hold true across the board. That introduces the potential for a very significant margin of error. That said, I think it is still valuable as a reminder that we are working with tools that have the potential to be very dangerous.

[Kevin Beitz]

I use a table saw at least once a week. The only time I almost got hurt was once I plugged in a small bench saw that blew up... KBOOM... I did not know a bad capacitor could do so much damage. Saw smashed up on the roof of my shop... The other time I was sawing 4'x8'x1" Styrofoam and it blew up. I picked my self up off the floor not knowing what happened. Still don't know. The Styrofoam was in hundreds of pieces. My now table saw is to old for a riving knife.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't think it's relatable at all. Nobody is using guns for hours at a time every day. Wearing, sure, but not actively using. Also the injury numbers for guns, last time I looked, included stupid things like suicides which are no accident. They even included shooting a criminal. So a useless number.

My point was that compared to the highly scrutinized gun statistics, which I agree are probably bogus, the saw statistics seem even more unbelievable.

I use both tools very often, and have never had an injury accident from either, but both sure can if used stupidly

[Ben Rivel]

Thanks for posting this OP, very interesting to see numbers like these.

[Terry Therneau]

I got hurt on a tablesaw after it was turned off and spinning down. An older unisaw where the switch is on the cabinet and you have to reach down under the table. After finishing a cut, with push stick, condentration, and care, I leaned down and turned it off, and the left hand drifted too close when standing back up. The blade was almost stopped, but it only takes a touch.

I still use the saw, but the shutoff is now a pair of paddles that require neither a lean nor a look.

Terry T.

[johnny means]

My point was that compared to the highly scrutinized gun statistics, which I agree are probably bogus, the saw statistics seem even more unbelievable.

I use both tools very often, and have never had an injury accident from either, but both sure can if used stupidly
I don't think the numbers seem all that incredible. After 20 years as a shop professional, I wouldn't doubt it at all. Older guys in the shop without a missing or shortened digit or two are about as rare as Philadelphia Super Bowls.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I still use the saw, but the shutoff is now a pair of paddles that require neither a lean nor a look.

Terry T.

I put the overhead kit on my Unisaw and feel SO much better having the switch high and available. I couple times I've had something get sketchy and I can quickly hit it while not moving the wood that's already in the cut.

[Phillip Gregory]

Anyone else skeptical about the numbers of injuries from saws? Just as a comparison, gun injuries were reportedly 31,000 for around 300,000,000 guns in the states (according to a Google) 80,000 injuries for 9,500,000 tablesaws (also from a Google) seems fishy to me.

Note, only using guns as a relatable comparison, nothing political intended.

Studies of causes of injuries are low quality from an academic sense as they deal with surveillance data of injuries after they occur. Essentially all are retrospective observational trials- "we looked back and saw if something happened." That is one step above the bottom rung of quality, case reports (anecdotal data.) Retrospective studies depend on injuries being reported to the surveillance system used accurately 100% of the time. That absolutely does not happen due to some individuals never seeking medical attention for non-fatal injuries so they never get counted. Deaths absolutely require reporting to a centralized state database as to a detailed cause of death, so as long as the medical examiner doesn't biff the documentation (unlikely in cases of saw injuries due to their obviousness) those should be accurately reported and available. But non-fatal injuries that do present to medical attention do not all get counted. Nearly all studies use payer claims data looking for injury mechanism codes as it is trivial to data mine that information from a payer database but practically impossible to read every medical chart from every physician in an area to see if any potentially saw-related injuries were missed. And even then, some physicians and midlevels have poor quality documentation and will just state the patient has such and such injury and make no note or mechanism diagnosis code as to the cause so even reading every single chart note won't pick things up.

Firearms are in a special category as at least some states (and probably most if not all of them) have laws that all firearms-related injuries that present to medical attention legally require notification of law enforcement even if the injuries did not result from criminal activity. Criminal activity with any weapon resulting in injury must always be reported and thus is tabulated.

The take-away is that there are more tablesaw injuries occurring than the studies show as they can be minor and do not present to medical attention, and even those that do present do not have to be reported to the authorities making the statistics. Firearms injuries are likely more accurate as they are mandatory to report in at least some (and likely most if not all) areas and injuries from firearms are usually severe and must present to medical attention. I suppose somebody could pinch their finger inserting a magazine or get their finger pinched in a firearm action, but that is not going to be a "near miss" kind of injury that could possibly portend a future serious injury, such as a person who just grazes their finger on a tablesaw blade and uses a Band-Aid.


I don't think it's relatable at all. Nobody is using guns for hours at a time every day. Wearing, sure, but not actively using. Also the injury numbers for guns, last time I looked, included stupid things like suicides which are no accident. They even included shooting a criminal. So a useless number.

Firearms injury and death statistics absolutely include all injuries and deaths regardless of intent, that is per regulations. The feds do publish a breakdown of the numbers though. The majority are in fact suicides, followed by homicides, most of which are criminals shooting other known criminals regarding criminal activity. Most "accidents" reported involve a child that encounters an illegally stored unlocked, loaded firearm and shoots themselves or another child. There are relatively few firearms injuries involving the lawful use of a firearm and most of those are an innocent person shooting a criminal. "Accidents" involving people involved in lawful use of a firearm resulting in the injury of themselves or others are exceedingly rare and in my state of 6 million with millions of firearms, happens about 5-10 times per year. I know this because the government prints each case of these in the hunting regulations booklet every year as a reminder for hunters and shooters. Essentially all of these cases involve somebody being careless as catastrophic rupture of a firearm when using proper ammunition would be about the only true "accidental" cause of injury or death from using a firearm. That's incredibly rare as firearms are built with a significant margin of safety against that happening (proof testing.)

The amount of time spent around a potential cause of injury absolutely impacts the likelihood of injury as injury risks are rates, injuries per unit time. People spend a relatively small amount of time actually shooting firearms. A typical deer hunter may shoot their rifle an hour per year, if that. An avid recreational shooter may shoot for a few hours per month. A competitive shooter may shoot for a few hours per week. A guy working in a furniture plant as the tablesaw operator will spend a few hours at the saw between starting work and his first bathroom break on Monday morning.

[Martin Wasner]

I suppose somebody could pinch their finger inserting a magazine or get their finger pinched in a firearm action, but that is not going to be a "near miss" kind of injury that could possibly portend a future serious injury, such as a person who just grazes their finger on a tablesaw blade and uses a Band-Aid.



Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb. :D

[Mike Henderson]

Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb. :D

I used one a fair amount. You get good at it eventually. It's a quick poke with your thumb and then get your thumb out of the receiver as the bolt comes forward. That was a lot of years ago.:)

Mike

[That's to close the bolt with the rifle empty. You'd have to do that at the end of a rifle inspection (when in ranks). To load it, you push a clip down from the top. It would have been better to have been designed to use a magazine, like the M14, instead of a clip.]

[Ronald Blue]

I think the statistics have limited value. While a few ER Dr's might go into great detail most aren't going to. A saw is a saw is a saw. So whether it's a hand held saw, a sawzall, jigsaw, band saw, or saw mill they likely get grouped together. Some people and power tools shouldn't be mixed. But they are and that's why we have these statistics. Some injuries may be kickback related but they are still lumped together. One of these days when I get in the new shop I will probably end up with a SS even though I despise what they tried to accomplish. But I will have grandchildren popping in and out and I am not going to chance having one of them injured when the technology is available to prevent it. Yes proper PPE is needed to prevent other injuries. Safety glasses, goggles, or face shields and hearing protection. Proper clothing and shoes and gloves. The statistics are good for discussion but they create many questions.

[Phillip Gregory]

Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb. :D

The one and only time I ever was injured from a firearm was getting bitten by a scope on a 12 gauge rifled barrel without iron sights slug gun. This was back in the days when rifled slug guns were still pretty new. The early "rifled slug gun" rounds were either 1 ounce .50 caliber sabots or even heavier attached-wad slugs, nearly all 3" magnums as they had to outperform the standard 2 3/4 oz 1 oz rifled slugs shot out of smoothbores. Long eye relief scopes were rare as the only rifles that kicked hard enough to really need them were African dangerous game rifles but those as a rule wore open sights. Teenaged me learned that shooting a 1 3/8 oz Brenneke attached wad slug out of a 7 pound slug gun has a recoil between a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .460 Weatherby Magnum the hard way by getting 16 stitches. I did end up shooting several deer with that gun using Ballistic Research .50 caliber saboted police ammunition designed to shoot through doors, walls, cars, and rumor has it disable vehicles by penetrating engine blocks. Those "only" had a recoil only a little worse than a .375 H&H but it was enough of a decrease to not drive the scope into my face.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Try out a garand.... I thought I was going to lose my thumb. :D

LOL, no kidding! Having tried it, I just can't find the desire to continue to use that technique. A drill sergeant would have a blast with my two handed approach.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I think the statistics have limited value. While a few ER Dr's might go into great detail most aren't going to. A saw is a saw is a saw. So whether it's a hand held saw, a sawzall, jigsaw, band saw, or saw mill they likely get grouped together. Some people and power tools shouldn't be mixed. But they are and that's why we have these statistics. Some injuries may be kickback related but they are still lumped together. One of these days when I get in the new shop I will probably end up with a SS even though I despise what they tried to accomplish. But I will have grandchildren popping in and out and I am not going to chance having one of them injured when the technology is available to prevent it. Yes proper PPE is needed to prevent other injuries. Safety glasses, goggles, or face shields and hearing protection. Proper clothing and shoes and gloves. The statistics are good for discussion but they create many questions.

Being "blessed" with a suspicious mind, you just pretty much said what I'm wondering about. A couple questions about the accident study. Nothing is done that doesn't financially benefit someone, so when a study like this comes out, who benefits? As Phillip also pointed out, the data mining might be pretty low quality, which in my mind might allow for more bias. What if that bias was to inflate the numbers to motivate sales of a particular product?

From a purely anecdotal sense, my little town/area has around 6000 people, and 30 to 40 full time tradesmen (who I'm familiar with) and probably another 10 or 15 that temp or pass through in a construction trades. It's a pretty close community, meaning that whenever something happens to one of us, we all know it. The lumber yard crews are a very efficient clearing house of info. In the last year, there have been no reports of saw injuries amongst us. Further, because it's a small town, and odd accidents actually make the local news still, the lack of reports of saw accidents is somewhat meaningful, and there were none last year that I noted. Knowing a couple people who work at the local hospital, I have heard reports of several construction accidents, a fall and a nail gun, but no saw accidents. All that together is completely anecdotal, but it isn't consistent with the study.

Because I'm hoping math will cause sleepiness as I sit here at 3 am, here are some badly calculated numbers. The study indicates that there should be 233 tablesaws in my community. I highly doubt that's accurate, but run with it. Extrapolating the data out, and there should have been over 2 reported saw accidents last year. Maybe there were, but of the people most likely to get injured because we use them the most, there were thankfully none. Maybe we are more careful here. I realize that my math is statistically incorrect, and meaningless, but my point is that I'm skeptical about the the study, and I wonder if it's being used to sell a product.

[Bill Kelleher]

The original post had this:

"78.8 percent of the saws did not have a safety switch"

I *assume* that means the others were a Saw Stop? Dunno, what else could "safety switch" mean here? At the same time, someone could have been injured while tripping over the Saw Stop's cord, and it would count as a Saw Stop related injury.


Regarding the safety switch,, my previous contractor saw and the benchtop before that had a removable yellow tab to prevent kids etc from starting the saw (if you took the tab out and hid it) Page 23 of the report asks if the switch was removable, so I am inclined to think this removable yellow tab would be the safety switch they speak of.
Bill

[Marshall Harrison]

The only saw injury I have ever had was from a hand saw. I don't remember the details as it happened 50+ years ago but I had a scar on the rear knuckle of my left thumb for years. Seems to have gone now. I guess age can do that to you.

i carried a gun on duty for years and still carry one daily. Only injury from that was slide bite from a 1911 during basic training. My current carry 1911 has an ample beaver tail to prevent that.

[John Gulick]

Very informative thread, and interesting responses. May I add this: when you work with your hands the probability exists your hands may get injured. Add some disregard for the equipment, the accident rate will increase, add being rushed, ........

Working in the field for 50+ years with a fair share of accidents, I can thank the Lord above for allowing me to continue.

[Carlos Alvarez]

My only woodworking injury of note (aside from splinters and small cuts) was from the planer shooting a piece of wood out. I had my thumb right on a corner of it, and the force took a little divot of skin and nail off. Not enough for me to go to a doctor, but enough to warrant a bandage. Now I am more careful with the planer, and how I guide the wood in.

[Charlie Hinton]

I am very glad for everyone that has not experienced a power saw accident (or known someone directly that has) and I truly hope you good fortune continues.

[Martin Wasner]

The thing about these threads that kinda cracks me up is the approach carried by some. Are saws potentially dangerous? Of course. But the hand wringing, gadgets, and proposal of missing a chromosome if you don't buy anything other than a particular black saw is pretty humorous. If you step up to that spinning wheel of death knowing full well that it is going to jack you up if you let it, it's a pretty simple relationship to maintain. I'm fortunate, I have a critical mind, a knack for woodworking, and a desire to pick boogers with my index finger so I try pretty hard to hang onto that hombre. I also am incapable of looking at it from the occasional user's perspective, where the senses aren't as crisp, where you don't speak the language and can't anticipate what's about to go wrong.


I've mauled myself six ways from Sunday. No missing digits despite a couple of attempts, but a handful of stitches, and uncountable number of wounds that should've gotten a stitch or two. The little blood sacrifices to the gods of woodworking are a good thing. They're reminders from the tools that say "Pull your head out of your posterior, or I'm going to maul you in ways you won't like." They keep your aim sharp and use diligent.


I've got a couple of pneumatic clamps in the shop for coping door rails. If you stick your finger in the clamp, it's going to hurt. A lot. I know this from experience. I tell everyone that. Nobody listens. Now once your finger is clamped down with 125psi of air pressure between an aluminum plate and whatever specie of hardwood, you have a decision to make. Do I A: Rip my finger out right now, and leave part of it in the clamp. Or. B: Release the clamp then remove my whole, but very much in pain, finger. Most people choose A. I don't really know why. I also explain that part. There has been many finger tips and finger nails ripped off because people don't like to listen.


Anything designed to cut wood will zip through you much more efficiently than a hot knife through butter. It won't notice, it won't care, it won't even draw any more power than were it sitting at an idle rpm. Just like you don't point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy, you don't stick anything in a saw you don't want to cut.


Whether the statistics on tablesaws are inflated or not, I don't care. I know from exposure to the industry that it pales in comparison to the misused chisel. Every shop I've ever worked at, that tool sent far more people to the doctor than tablesaws.

Tablesaw 101: Material tight to the deck. Material tight to the fence. Proceed with moving material through the blade after confirming the first two, and not much can go wrong.

[Carlos Alvarez]

The exact same things happens on forums for all sorts of potentially dangerous activities. The top four I participate in that generate extremist safety views are motorcycles, boats, SCUBA, and Jeeps. On the one hand you have the nuts who think you're an idiot if you don't wear a life jacket 100% of the time. On the other, the idiots who while I was helping rescue them said they didn't know where they were (and the water in the boat was knee-high). Same with various types of motorcycle gear.

"If you crash in jeans you WILL get road rash and end up in the hospital!!!"

Me: I've crashed in jeans twice, one with no injury at all and one (at 80) that resulted in a dime-size rash spot.

"YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!"

Almost nobody does EVERYTHING possible to be safe. But so many people claim that they do, instead of realizing that they chose a different compromise