Wadkin PK. One of the best table saws gets to live another life

[Matt Mattingley]

A Wadkin PK is like a fine wine. It’s got great body, 18” restriction, 5 hp respect, she’s a slider... weighing in at just over 1700 pounds. This is how I found her (a few years ago).
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She has been used and abused a little bit over the years but still in good condition. Missing a few things… As things happen with age. She is only a short stroke slider, but she is a patternmakers saw...

I guess it’s time to put her together after the long doctor visit.

[Ben Zara]

Looking forward to seeing your rebuild.

[Frederick Skelly]

Looking forward to seeing your rebuild.

Me too!!!!!!!!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That's awesome, I'd love to have one too!

[John Sincerbeaux]

Jack, your PK is hands down the most beautiful wood working machine i have ever seen.
Care to show some pics again for those who have never seen it?

[Patrick Kane]

I havent used either saw, and most likely never will. With that said, i think the PK is aesthetically one of the best vintage machines out there. Frankly, I think aesthetics and nostalgia are the only reasons to own any machine from that era.

[David Kumm]

I have 8-10 table saws of various age and vintage and other than the benefits of a 10' new slider, I find myself always walking to the old saws for use. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my Rockwell 12-14 and it is tuned up to deliver a great cut. Still, there is an enjoyment to the old saws and the convenience of a short stroke sliding table that is hard to explain but if you use one, you know what I mean. I do not subscribe to nostalgia as being the only reason to own one. I have a harder time finding reasons for new ( SS technology excepted ) given the deals on old. I have a PK, Whitney 77, and Robinson ET/E. There are slight differences that account for individual preference but they are virtually equal and cause my Rockwell to sit unloved. Dave

[brent stanley]

You don’t have the saw buddy


https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh6zdmnADIh/


Whoa.....that's nice!

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[David Kumm]

Thanks for the pictures jack. A Robinson with the 52" table is my ideal. I wouldn't want the crosscut stuff but I'd take the machine in a heartbeat. Dave384710

[Matt Mattingley]

I am not going to show my saw in this thread

Come on Jack! Pull on your big pants. Give me something to aspire to! A PK is a PK. Show you’re little baby. You deserve it!!!

For a conversation piece, I don’t even care that this is my build thread...

I was thinking how I did it would be a fun read. I don’t mind side escapades. I’m even good with just carrying on my journey.


I’m just wondering, am I the only person on this journey???

I just do what I do for fun. Maybe not everybody has received fun OMM yet???

[Steve Rozmiarek]

How hard is it to find a PK like Matt's or Jack's, or any Wadkin slider for that matter? I've never seen one, but that could be because of where I live.

[brent stanley]

Come on Jack! Pull on your big pants. Give me something to aspire to! A PK is a PK. Show you’re little baby. You deserve it!!!

For a conversation piece, I don’t even care that this is my build thread...

I was thinking how I did it would be a fun read. I don’t mind side escapades. I’m even good with just carrying on my journey.


I’m just wondering, am I the only person on this journey???

I just do what I do for fun. Maybe not everybody has received fun OMM yet???

Every day I'm getting closer to rebuilding mine. I can't wait! Since mine came from a school I'm hoping it's not too knackered, but I do have a parts machine if I need it. Can't wait to see yours Matt.

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[brent stanley]

I havent used either saw, and most likely never will. With that said, i think the PK is aesthetically one of the best vintage machines out there. Frankly, I think aesthetics and nostalgia are the only reasons to own any machine from that era.

Another reason though is cost in the context of capability. Jack's saw cost him $100 and a few days of sweat equity, and those deals are still available out there for people not afraid of having to rebuild. This is a dead nuts accurate, short stroke slider with riving knife and overhead guard, fully featured fence that's a dream to work with. Now don't tell us that the newer equivalent (if one exists) of this saw has modern features that this one doesn't......we all know that. But if you compare the costs of a new saw to something like this, you'd have to agree it's a pretty darn practical way of getting this capacity into a small, one person shop that doesn't have a huge budget.

[David Kumm]

Although cost is one issue. even at high prices, these old saws are worth it IMO. I have less than 1K in my Whitney and probably close to 5K in the Robinson with the PK falling in the middle. All are worth it. PK and Robinson are hard to find in US and slightly easier in Canada. the cost of transporting to US, buying a transformer ( most Canadian machines are 600v ) and rehabbing can take the price up to the level of a new PM but the result is still a slider that will run long after the PM is dead. Here in US, Tanny, Oliver, Whitney and Northfield are easier to find. PK are out there. Zayd here had a great 220v PK in pieces in the 2K range. It included the rare overhead and at least half the quadrant so it was a deal. You have to watch. Dave

[Matt Mattingley]

Of course when I bought the machine it had a front tag that said it was 208 V. When I inspected the motor it said 220/440.
It had a motor shop electrical sticker saying it was converted to 550. Inside the electrical box there was a 575 V coil contactor. When I took the motor to the motor shop and they tested it (it only had three leads coming out of the windings,) and came up with an ideal voltage of 468 V. I asked them to see if it was dual wound and got them to take off the back tape to bring out the second set of winding leads. It is now a dual voltage. 234/468 V. I gave the motor a little spit polish and a treat of a new set of double row self aligning bronze cage bearings. I gave the bearings a treat with LGLT 2 SKF.

I had to source the bearings all the way from Australia.

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[Patrick Kane]

That is kind of what I was getting at, these are not readily available saws, and I was under the impression they were 5k in a restored state. I look at the used market daily and I’ve NEVER seen a wadkin PK in any condition over the last 3 years. I do see restored Oliver’s for sale and they are in the 3-4K range from what I’ve seen. Tannewitz and northfield’s saws aren’t particularly cheap either. Now, your point is made against new Asian import retail prices, but on the used market, I’m less convinced. A fair amount of euro equipment from the last decade that is the same price or less with a lot more functionality. Hence, leading back to my original comment about aesthetics and nostalgia.

I’m assuming you are connected to these machines in some ownership or fashion, which is leading to your passioned argument, but in a bang for buck comparison, I think I am on the other side of the fence. Still, I appreciate the other side keeping a few around.

Jack, your machine is the only one I’ve seen, and didn’t realize that belonged to you. Haha that was the exact machine I had in mind when I mentioned aesthetics.

[David Kumm]

Not to derail Matt's thread completely, my point is that there really aren't many newer comparables to the old short stroke slider for furniture work. SCMI made an SI12 and SI16 with a 4' table and Felder made one years ago, but most sliders now have sub tables that stick out in front of the saw. That makes traditional ripping harder since the sliding table doesn't lock down flush with the fixed. There is no doubt that a 10' slider can do it all, but when you can only use a small saw, the short 36" stroke comes in handy enough that I don't know why manufacturers don't offer one. Hammer does make one but it costs more than most old saws with less build. It is a handy size though. It should be compared to a traditional fixed saw rather than a long stroke slider. Most sliders made today are sized to crosscut 4' for sheet goods which make it less handy for furniture work. Dave

PS: If you have studied bearings you will appreciate both the build quality and Matt's anal ability to source them. Brass cage self aligning bearings of that size are extremely hard to find at a price less than many old machines sell for.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't want to derail Matt's thread, so maybe I'll start a new one asking for some pics of the various neat old saws we're talking about. I need a hobby right now, might be time to restore one. I really want to see a bearing like that one Matt sourced, in person. Wow!

[Matt Mattingley]

https://youtu.be/8TOpBduKkek

[brent stanley]

Hey man, I'm first in line!

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[John Sincerbeaux]

I don't want to derail Matt's thread, so maybe I'll start a new one asking for some pics of the various neat old saws we're talking about. I need a hobby right now, might be time to restore one. I really want to see a bearing like that one Matt sourced, in person. Wow!

I respect Jack for graciously avoiding derailing this thread. Imo, pretty classy.
If you want to see his and other PK’s, simply google Wadkin PK.

The guy i bought my Northfield HD16 jointer from restores various machines. He found his PK through a contact in the UK. Bought it sight unseen and had it shipped to the US. Restored it beautifully.

[Matt Mattingley]

Hey man, I'm first in line!

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One day at a time. I’ll i’ll bring the holy grail to its feet. Nobody will be able to dispute my findings with out indicator! I’ll even challenge Jack Forsberg just for fun!

[Matt Mattingley]

Just for fun why do I like my switchgear looking like this, to this??? I simply gave away my old switchgear to a fellow Wadkin junkie. Mark in England was generous enough to pass along this, and I was generous enough to pass along my old gear. Maybe just for fun and wondering where my old switchgear ended up, what it looks like today. Pictures?

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[brent stanley]

Just for fun why do I like my switchgear looking like this, to this??? I simply gave away my old switchgear to a fellow Wadkin junkie. Mark in England was generous enough to pass along this, and I was generous enough to pass along my old gear. Maybe just for fun and wondering where my old switchgear ended up, what it looks like today. Pictures?

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When the slotted screws line up, you know it's someone who pays attention to detail! :)

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[David Kumm]

both Jack and Matt are wood guys with metal working precision and their machines show it. Both have sent me parts without charge and are great guys. If they are passionate about their machines, so be it. They are also fair. I've had lots of discussions about my preferences and no one gets personal.

Jack, I'm not sure I totally agree about the preload capabilities of SA bearings. Given that the balls run in an arc on both inner and outer, any loading tends to negate the purpose of the bearing. SA bearings were used when the machining tolerences over a distance might not be perfect enough to allow a tight or normal clearance on a radial bearing without heating it up due to a VERY slight alignment issue relative to the two bearings. Wadkin's short, newer motor used only one SA bearing with a radial near the blade, as did most US manufacturers. While Wadkin used the best of the best in SA bearings, I don't believe them to be superior to a precision radial assuming the machining would support that use. I may be totally wrong ( happens a lot ) but I believe Wadkin used the SA bearings to avoid incorrect loading or even incorrect installation of bearings in the field. Dave

[David Kumm]

I get what you are saying, Jack and will do some reading. On the motor diagram you posted, is it the endbell outboard RM9 that is designed for the preload? I can't see how it is done on the RM16.

The ability to run at higher speeds also allows for the use of larger bearings as the load ratings of SA are lower than Conrad type of the same size. Dave

[David Kumm]

Jack, maybe we are saying the same thing. What you termed as load might be what I call clearance. SA bearings have clearance choices similar to radial deep groove while AC bearings need the assembly to provide the load. On a spindle bearing, I would not think any clearance higher than CN or maybe even C2 would be necesaary given the speed limits those bearings run at. There is no way in a spindle runout situation that a large standard radial bearing could survive with a clearance as tight as a SA could have. A precision would handle a tight clearance unless there was either shaft flex or misalignment. The use of SA bearings does allow for less runout and probably why those old bearings are often still good after 50 years. This is probably not what Matt had in mind for a discussion but at least two of us are having fun. Dave

[David Kumm]

I agree. The tiny bit of understanding I have about bearings makes me appreciate how brilliantly these old machines were designed and how compromises are made to cut costs. Some of that will become apparent if I allow Matt to continue with his info. Dave

[Phillip Gregory]

Of course when I bought the machine it had a front tag that said it was 208 V. When I inspected the motor it said 220/440.
It had a motor shop electrical sticker saying it was converted to 550. Inside the electrical box there was a 575 V coil contactor. When I took the motor to the motor shop and they tested it (it only had three leads coming out of the windings,) and came up with an ideal voltage of 468 V. I asked them to see if it was dual wound and got them to take off the back tape to bring out the second set of winding leads. It is now a dual voltage. 234/468 V. I gave the motor a little spit polish and a treat of a new set of double row self aligning bronze cage bearings. I gave the bearings a treat with LGLT 2 SKF.

Electricals on old machines are often screwy and have conflicting information. Yours is foreign which adds additional cans of worms as England where the saw was made uses 400 volt wye 3 phase, most of Canada (which imports a lot of English equipment) uses 208 wye or 600 volt wye 3 phase with a little American 480 wye thrown in there in places, and essentially all of the US uses 208 volt wye, 240 volt delta, and 480 volt wye 3-phase. Certain areas in the US that were big industrial sites in the late 1800s and very early 1900s before standards got established used a bunch of odd power supplies, including DC, 25 Hz AC, and 600 volt AC.

Your motor appears to have either been original and not rewound, or rewound as "US modern spec" delta 230/460 to run on either 240 delta or 480 wye, like most US 3 phase motors under about 100-150 HP. It is certainly not 575/600 volt as properly done the ideal voltage would have been around 575 volts and it would have been wound single-voltage-only with only 3 leads instead of dual-voltage delta as your motor is.




here you see one in the PK and here is one in action

That looks like the molding heads we can still buy here in the US, such as the Magic Molder or the old Craftsman tri-whacker molding heads my Dad still has and still uses. I don't know if I would be brave enough to use one on my RAS, although I run an also illegal in the EU stack dado without any issues.

[Matt Mattingley]

Electricals on old machines are often screwy and have conflicting information. Yours is foreign which adds additional cans of worms as England where the saw was made uses 400 volt wye 3 phase, most of Canada (which imports a lot of English equipment) uses 208 wye or 600 volt wye 3 phase with a little American 480 wye thrown in there in places, and essentially all of the US uses 208 volt wye, 240 volt delta, and 480 volt wye 3-phase. Certain areas in the US that were big industrial sites in the late 1800s and very early 1900s before standards got established used a bunch of odd power supplies, including DC, 25 Hz AC, and 600 volt AC.

Your motor appears to have either been original and not rewound, or rewound as "US modern spec" delta 230/460 to run on either 240 delta or 480 wye, like most US 3 phase motors under about 100-150 HP. It is certainly not 575/600 volt as properly done the ideal voltage would have been around 575 volts and it would have been wound single-voltage-only with only 3 leads instead of dual-voltage delta as your motor is.



That looks like the molding heads we can still buy here in the US, such as the Magic Molder or the old Craftsman tri-whacker molding heads my Dad still has and still uses. I don't know if I would be brave enough to use one on my RAS, although I run an also illegal in the EU stack dado without any issues.
Philip, this is a star/delta motor six leads. It’s not a nine lead as most Americans are used to. Originally three of the six leads were buried in the back shellac tape. Now all six leads come out as star/delta. I’ll see if I can dig up the original wiring schematic.

Had both machines apart, back together, set up and running. I prefer the PP. I actually prefer a t-17 or an si12 over them all, well except for my ET Fairbanks, but that is a right hand rolling table which I find easier and more normal to use.

[Matt Mattingley]

Jack, I totally appreciate your love for the PK. And you have been a gentleman over the years with support measuring knobs and quadrants and everything that will make mine complete! ! You give and constantly give without monetary stipulations to the PK and Wadkin community . This makes you a super gentlemen! Don’t ever stop loving your passion. I have your same passion. And there will be haters or disliker‘s of the Wadkin PK, they may even try to derail a thread with passion involved. Let’s just be bigger gentleman and overcome.

[Matt Mattingley]

Sometime taping off decal is not the easiest job.
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Now taking this machine to my basement woodworking shop that fully 1700 pounds. One piece at a time.

Here is the mouse trap. About 500 pound bace casting.
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[Matt Mattingley]

Let’s get to the fun part. Over 300 parts. Let’s put it back together. This is where the real Wadkin Enthusiast separate themselves. New Motor bearings,
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There just bearings. They spin. They spin with a lot less amperage and heat. Did I mention that they spin better than the old ones.
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[Phillip Gregory]

There are also wye-delta motors in the US, six leads for single voltage and 12 leads for series-parallel dual-voltage. These are typically used for reduced voltage starting (wye start, delta run) or are two speed single-winding consequent pole motors. I have one of the latter on my drill press, a six lead single voltage parallel wye/series delta motor. A drum switch was used to switch which motor connection scheme was provided power to set the motor speed.

[Matt Mattingley]

When I’m teaching my kids woodworking and metalworking, I teach them the value of safety glasses first! Then other PPE. I hope I’m not the only person that thinks this. I like my kids being able to see.

I teach many kids every year. I have to kick them out of the shop if they are not properly prepared. I hope their parents appreciate that I care for their kids eyes, ears, lungs and their toes.

[David Kumm]

I learn a lot more when we are discussing machines than people. I don't care who likes what and I'm interested in every saw so let's talk saws. Dave

[Ron Brese]

I love this. Love the color combo as well.

Ron

[Steve Rozmiarek]

After a brief intermission, more pics of the build now please!

[Larry Edgerton]

I learn a lot more when we are discussing machines than people. I don't care who likes what and I'm interested in every saw so let's talk saws. Dave

Right on. I'm not in a position to indulge, but I sure like reading about the old iron.

[Keith Outten]

I'm finished editing and deleting posts in this thread. I don't have the time or patience so please respect the person who started this thread by staying on topic and be friendly. It should be very clear to everyone here that I believe in enforcing the rules here without concern for any individuals status, real or imaginary. We are not going to remove this thread, however I will silence those who cannot abide by the rules of this Community swiftly, particularly those who cannot communicate without being disrespectful toward others.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thanks Keith.

[Matt Mattingley]

Everything about this saw was a little bit of a journey. The fence was broken and then braised back together and left in a bent fashion. I had to take that apart. Out with the blow torches. Then nickel welded them back together.

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I also surface ground the fence to make it perfectly flat and straight again.

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It is a slider and it was missing the quadrant. So I made up patterns. I did copy Jack’s quadrant with dimensions.

[Matt Mattingley]

Here are some odds and ends as I’ve been putting it back together this spring.

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Motor in...and the rusty table top.

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The table top did clean up pretty nicely.

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[David Kumm]

Matt, you should show the Ampco T nuts you made to tighten the rip fence slot and take out the play. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Matt, you should show the Ampco T nuts you made to tighten the rip fence slot and take out the play. Dave
Yeah those are pretty good I had the good fortune to have a set made by Matt Matt For my saw as well.

[Mark Bolton]

The work you guys put in these projects is amazingly impressive. I only wish I had the time and perseverance. Really awesome to see.

[Matt Mattingley]

I’m in a set up right now using the fence to indicate blade run out and arbour alignment.

But here is a little entertaining video for you. 17 3/4” versus 7 1/4“



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP8yngsnHhI

[peter gagliardi]

Matt, glad to see the thread restored. I enjoy seeing any brand of old arn rebuilds.
Nice progress.

[James Biddle]

Any idea why the start-stop labels were reversed after being cleaned up (post #23)?

[Matt Mattingley]

Any idea why the start-stop labels were reversed after being cleaned up (post #23)?
LOL. I’m glad somebody saw that. That was my goof. It has since been swapped.

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice job Matt! I can appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. My shaper restoration took a huge chunk of time but not to the level you are taking this. Enjoy!
joe

[brent stanley]

Enjoying this thread, thanks for bringing it back.

[Matt Mattingley]

I finally finished with the blade and tooth indication. Neutral which is on the surface table (not clamped or influenced by inner and outer flange) The blade has 0.002 deviation or a + or -0.001 to each carbide tooth. The flange run out is 0.0005” in a 4.875 diameter. I’m shooting to fix this. The flange clamping the arbour run out to fence (in all factory Doweled positions) are out .002. The fence has a plus minus tolerance using the Key way dovetail of +-0.00125.

In my opinion the flange motor mount need to be reworked as I’m thinking it’s out 0.0001”. The motor needs to be shifted 0.003 over a 6 inch span, and the blade being +-0.001 I will just have to deal with. Wadkin used soft dowels for alignment. I replaced them all with tooling pull dowels. Soft dowels allow sheer nudge and retighten in positioning. Tooling ground dowels weren’t available at that time... they are now. So the motor is out 0.003 to fence over a 16 inch span. The fence has a +-0.00125.

I will adjust (or pull) one of the motor dowels and adjust with a 0.005” shim to get my 0.003 Arbour alignment (A²+B²=C²) . I will stone the arbour mounting flange and lap or try to lap 0.0001. The blade to wobble I will consider exceptable at +-0.001.

I will leave the fence that has a +- 0.00125 teeter totter. (At 30° and 45°, the numbers are repeatable). I’m not going to fix, the blade has a +-0.001. When were talking these numbers it’s just blah blah blah blah blah. Most people don’t really care.

Sure there are videos out there showing how to fix your Arbour or Arbour flange. Just step back and think about it like a machinist would.


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[jack forsberg]

An interesting feature of the engineering of the fence on the PK is it’s ability to handle run out. You will notice that the fence locks down exactly at the apex of the cutting of the blade. In other words the dovetail slot in the table is right at the front cutting edge of the blade.Therefore Any toe In the fence is split between the clearance of the kerf and plate. In essence this will eliminates the necessity for it to be set dead nuts. In the last six years I have adjusted my fence once and that was after I had installed your Ampco bronze keys

[Michael Larson]

Matt,

Looking great!

Michael

[Frank Pratt]

I’m in a set up right now using the fence to indicate blade run out and arbour alignment.

But here is a little entertaining video for you. 17 3/4” versus 7 1/4“

Will you use a VFD with braking to slow that thing down a little sooner. I imagine it keeps going for quite a while after shutdown. Beautiful work you're doing there.

[Martin Wasner]

While probably smarter to have a motor brake, there's something satisfying about a saw still spinning a couple minutes after cutting the power.

[Bill Dufour]

Why the open bearings and not sealed for the motor? Nice job and good to see this thread restored.
Bill D

[jack forsberg]

Why the open bearings and not sealed for the motor? Nice job and good to see this thread restored.
Bill DI don’t believe you could even order those bearings sealed. Although some self aligning bearings can be ordered sealed it is not necessarily better. Generally sealed bearings last about 20 years used or not. It is not uncommon for these bearings to last three times that. It should be noted that the bearings that you are witnessing in Matt Matt‘s motor are approximately $450 apiece and were made by Hoffman the same bearing manufacture for the rolls Royce engines. It’s also important if you look at the motor Diagram how the Grease never enters the winding as there is a purg Cavity as new Grease is pushed through and renewed it displaces the old grease

[David Kumm]

While a some sealed SA bearings can be had sealed, the high end brass cage generally aren't- at least for a price less than the whole machine. The seal limits the ability of the bearing to handle alignment issues and they will run hotter. Old industrial machines designed cavities for either oil or grease so the excess could be expelled and replaced with new, or metered out at an appropriate rate. Precision bearings are almost always open as well. Sealed are usually stamped steel cage standard precision. Contact seals reduce the speed rating which is all ready pretty low for the large size- high load- bearings run in industrial machines. Using smaller diameter sealed bearings is often claimed as an improvement for marketing purposes but there is substantial cost savings when not needing to design for large open bearings. Few understand the load or speed differences or the need to replace more often. This is a bigger issue when dealing with shapers than with saws but the old companies didn't compromise much on their high end stuff. Dave

[Matt Mattingley]

Jack and Dave know more about double row self aligning bronze cage bearings, then I’ll ever plead to.

I replaced SKF with Hoffman. I replaced the front and back motor bearings. This ran me almost C$300 with shipping and taxes... The replacements were both Hoffman bronze cage self aligning bearings. My quote on SKF Old stock was running US$300 for the front bearing and US$200 for the back in North America.

So just refurbish as you see fit. Let your journey enjoy your pocket book. Time is not of an essence if you have desire and patients!

[jack forsberg]

Jack and Dave know more about double row self aligning bronze cage bearings, then I’ll ever plead to.

I replaced SKF with Hoffman. I replaced the front and back motor bearings. This ran me almost C$300 with shipping and taxes... The replacements were both Hoffman bronze cage self aligning bearings. My quote on SKF Old stock was running US$300 for the front bearing and US$200 for the back in North America.

So just refurbish as you see fit. Let your journey enjoy your pocket book. Time is not of an essence if you have desire and patients!
I’ll just add these bearings are all Obsolete and the RLS bearings are inch bearing Not metric. R stands for inch . These ones are the rarest and take a while to hunt down old stock . There is one last recourse to have continental bearing make them. Hold onto your hat though.

[David Kumm]

The bearings on the other motor type for the PK are much easier to source as they are common metric sizes. Sourcing bearings is one of the few areas where the internet has vastly improved life. Dave

[Mike Delyster]

Looking great Matt.

I look forward to seeing you cross the finish line with your PK refurb.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Dave, Matt and Jack,

I am really enjoying the learning curve here. You guys are way over my head and pay grade, but reading the discussion helps me become aware of things I didn't even know existed. Thank you all. Patrick

[jack forsberg]

Dave, Matt and Jack,

I am really enjoying the learning curve here. You guys are way over my head and pay grade, but reading the discussion helps me become aware of things I didn't even know existed. Thank you all. Patrick

what compounds a rebuild of old English Wadkin kit (English word for machine ) is the way they were made . For one BSW (British standard whithworth ) threads were used well into the 70s ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth ) and the bolts were made in the factory as well so each one can be a different length and special head size . Machines were built in batches of 10 to 20 and each hand fitted and scraped in . Parts from one machine may not be dead nuts on another if fitted . this was the British way and still the practiced building the Rolls and the Bentley this way today .
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the fitting bay at Green Lane factory Wadkin

all machine went through the test department at wadkin and machine were run through and calibration made before leaving the factory . all Wadkin machine have a test number and this is how they are dated .

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the PK is a very old model that went through many changes over its 40 years of production . this is the very early line belt P family of saw to start it off. the first letter is the family the second is the model a 3rd letter was for drive type as Wadkin would supply AC or DC as well as line belts in and frequency or voltage . this 3rd letter was drop in the 50s when line belt was no long in the catalogs. eg PKA was an AC electric drive . Matt Matt,s is a generation 4 and the zenith of the PK model saws .

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[Matt Mattingley]

Jack, I do believe my saw to your saw was a small transition stage. You and I both got the better motor. I think you got the new and improved adjustable angle deg° pointer. I believe our machines were made 15ish apart.
Edit; this is a copy paste of John’s list...

PK 1702 of 1954 (test 49379) - Matt Matt (Canada);
PK 1718 of 1954 (test 49784) - J Forsberg (Canada);

[jack forsberg]

Jack, I do believe my saw to your saw was a small transition stage. You and I both got the better motor. I think you got the new and improved adjustable angle deg° pointer. I believe our machines were made 15ish apart.
Edit; this is a copy paste of John’s list...

PK 1702 of 1954 (test 49379) - Matt Matt (Canada);
PK 1718 of 1954 (test 49784) - J Forsberg (Canada);

Yes our saws appear to be 16 machines a part. In fact it is conceivable they were on the factory floor together in the same batch . Although the test numbers reveal 405 machines went through the test department between our two saws . Approximately 2000 machines were produced yearly out of green lane works. So it appears my saw only sat in the store for three months when that change was developed.

[Matt Mattingley]

Yes our saws appear to be 16 machines a part. In fact it is conceivable they were on the factory floor together in the same batch . Although the test numbers reveal 405 machines went through the test department between our two saws . Approximately 2000 machines were produced yearly out of green lane works. So it appears my saw only sat in the store for three months when that change was developed. Jack, even though I believe in some of your theories. I do believe some of your theories could be wrong. I call this the chicken or egg.

For example, the etching on the table was it done to quadrant specifications... or was the quadrant machined to the table etching? Surely there is tolerance take up and realignment in any machine. After carefully analyzing all my numbers, my motor was out of alignment mine motor is out 0.003 to the natural state of the fence. I would consider this not that bad as my reference area is 14 inches( and machine 70+ years old). I did take all fence grub screws for alignment out. Fence grub screws are used for micro adjustment.

[jack forsberg]

Jack, even though I believe in some of your theories. I do believe some of your theories could be wrong. I call this the chicken or egg.

For example, the etching on the table was it done to quadrant specifications... or was the quadrant machined to the table etching? Surely there is tolerance take up and realignment in any machine. After carefully analyzing all my numbers, my motor was out of alignment mine motor is out 0.003 to the natural state of the fence. I would consider this not that bad as my reference area is 14 inches( and machine 70+ years old). I did take all fence grub screws for alignment out. Fence grub screws are used for micro adjustment.

lets start with this catalog cut of the fitting room at Wadkin LTD (AKA Green Lane Works ) dated from the 50s of the PK tables being set in the batch production method .

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I am going to say that the tables were already prepared as a unit with etchings and calibrated double miter offsite by Chesterman of Bow works.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/James_Chesterman_and_Co

This is of course after the entire table was surface ground as a unit. PRECISION HERE IS SUPPORTED by the infill strip letter stamped screws.That's about as anal as it gets in precision to make sure the screws that were ground with the table top go back in the same spot. lastly and this is just my opinion is that the in bedded hardened steel strip that support the roller bearing of the slider cartage are ground parallel after the top is done . Catalog documents of the facilities for grinding as State of the art in what was called a cube fixture set up.There would be far too much risk for error in a complete machine to discover Alignment issues in the test department.
The motor would be installed prior to the table and be set up on the axis of the trunnions. The entire machining of the tilting blade flask would have used the trunnion as it’s datum zero. The motor would therefore be set up off of this bench mark . To support this theory The body design supports this by having trunnion support separate and Dowel pins and dialed to the base top .Of course this makes the most sense as the blade has to traverse the rise and fall parallel to the rise and fall machined Ways .

You can clearly see the sliding table sitting atop the main tables As the machinist fits the tops of the PK. This photo suggests batches are kept together and pre-fitted. You will also notice that the tables on all of the pk Have a single C clamp in the bolt pin location by the crown guard support. These suggest the table is locked and rotated in the plane with the trunnion axis. Therefore it is fallacious To use the fence plate to set up the motor. Clearly the table has been set up to take account for run out. Lastly it would not make sense in production standards for Wadkin to do a set up to where They would have to remove the top to correct an motor alignment issue. The main table is built with the T-slot as a 90° registration and perpendicular to the milled edge to which the sliding table abutts.

[David Kumm]

As you both know, my PK was a very late model and we have speculated it may have been built by assembling left over parts in inventory. I do not believe it was hand fitted by the factory like the others. There was no way the motor and arbor lined up to the table using the dowel pins on the top or on the motor. Setting the fixed table correctly would allow for most of the sliding table to be etched and drilled independently but I have no clue whether it was. I just know my machine did not go through the final fitting like others and someone used it for 50+ years set up poorly. I ran into a similar issue with my Porter 300. The owner never understood how to set the tables with the spring joint mechanism and used a million shims but complained he never got a great cut from it. I removed the shims and set the tables with two dial indicators and an 8' straight edge and it has been perfect since.

My point to anyone rehabbing machines is : Don't assume the machine was set up or repaired correctly. Don't assume anything. I've even seen improper bearings installed due to the different nomanclature used on some old bearings. That is why these threads become so important when researching. A huge benefit of a PK over a Robinson or Whitney is the amount of info available detailing the build. I have none of that detail for my other saws. Dave

[jack forsberg]

As you both know, my PK was a very late model and we have speculated it may have been built by assembling left over parts in inventory. I do not believe it was hand fitted by the factory like the others. There was no way the motor and arbor lined up to the table using the dowel pins on the top or on the motor. Setting the fixed table correctly would allow for most of the sliding table to be etched and drilled independently but I have no clue whether it was. I just know my machine did not go through the final fitting like others and someone used it for 50+ years set up poorly. I ran into a similar issue with my Porter 300. The owner never understood how to set the tables with the spring joint mechanism and used a million shims but complained he never got a great cut from it. I removed the shims and set the tables with two dial indicators and an 8' straight edge and it has been perfect since.

My point to anyone rehabbing machines is : Don't assume the machine was set up or repaired correctly. Don't assume anything. I've even seen improper bearings installed due to the different nomanclature used on some old bearings. That is why these threads become so important when researching. A huge benefit of a PK over a Robinson or Whitney is the amount of info available detailing the build. I have none of that detail for my other saws. Dave

in part Dave it was yours and others latter machines that lead me to how much these machines were fitted at one time . Now when i say fitted i mean to a standard of metal machine tools . This was the claim of Wadkin LTD and its Woodworking machines that they were built to this standard . Wadkin also made Metal working machines as well and this is lesser know .

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Photo taken c.1977 in the Gun Shop at Hunslet Engine Co, Jack Lane Leeds.

If the machine looks low it is because it is set into a pit 30 inches below the ground, as the height was constricted due to the overhead crane.

The machine was new in 1976 and the first of its type from Wadkin costing £750,000.

The photo shows the right-angle head with a milling cutter taking the edge off the frame of a Rack and Pinion Mines loco

one of these mills just sold

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eDbtOav5Cw

[Rod Sheridan]

I’m in a set up right now using the fence to indicate blade run out and arbour alignment.

But here is a little entertaining video for you. 17 3/4” versus 7 1/4“



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP8yngsnHhI

I see the problem Matt, your Nicholson blade is a left hand one. You need a right hand blade unless you want to stand at the back of the saw,;)

Nice restoration..............Rod.

[Matt Mattingley]

I see the problem Matt, your Nicholson blade is a left hand one. You need a right hand blade unless you want to stand at the back of the saw,;)

Nice restoration..............Rod. have you thought for a second it might be the scoring blade??? LOL. Just having fun, PK’s don’t have a scoring blade. LOL. Maybe this is a new employment LOL?

[David Kumm]

Here is the arbor nut Matt made for me in Brass. Like jewelry. It is the original size. 385636385637 I had one made that was larger as my original was larger and i matched it. I don't have the double quadrant but use a digital crosscut fence. I used two existing holes but made an eccentric bushing for one. The crosscut fence slips into the T bolts. 385638385639 Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just dug up this thread hoping I'd missed some pics or something, looking forward seeing more of the build!

[Matt Mattingley]

Just dug up this thread hoping I'd missed some pics or something, looking forward seeing more of the build!
I just put in the VFD. I thought it would be fun to show how to align the table bearings, but I simply just jumped over that. I have no problem doing rewind. Right now I’ve jumped onto the electrical VFD powering system.