Domino through tenon ?

[Mike Holbrook]

I was making a worktable recently. I was attaching plywood 22” wide to 2x4s. I used Dominos so I did not have to worry about screws when I started drilling dog holes in the top. I went all the way through the plywood with a 6mm/40mm Domino. It had occured to me that I might also want to know where the Dominos were when I started drilling.

The other obvious advantage of through Dominos is one only has to drill half as many Domino holes. Wondering if there is some disadvantage to this technique that I have not thought of?

[Prashun Patel]

The disadvantage is if the domino does not fill the corners completely it may not look finished.

[Marshall Harrison]

I'm no expert but I don't recall ever seeing floating through tenons before.

[johnny means]

l've used that technique to make quick and dirty drawer boxes and tool caddies. Always worked out well. The Dominoes always fit plenty tight. I never thought Dominoes really had corners.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I use it periodically:

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[Mike Holbrook]

I would think a through domino would be similar to a drawbore or dowel, except the domino should be better than a dowel. Hard to do a drawbore on two pieces without butted surfaces.

I was contemplating only gluing the dominos to the first piece of plywood, so I could replace the top piece if it is damaged or I find one of the better MDFs I have been reading about. I am also planing to use a 3/4” strip around the edges, which will help hold things in place.

My idea was to use dominos as screw replacements. I am about to move to a home that is made of logs, all wood shiplap panneling inside. The new entrance is “timber framed”. I thought the “through tenons” might continue the “timber framed”/drawbored theme that we will continue to use in other areas of the home. I am putting timber framed in “” because where it looks like timbers are held in place by pegs there are actually long heavy screws driven in deep holes. A peg or dowel is placed in the screw hole. Hard to find a real timber framer these days. I suspect it may be hard to get rural area inspectors to approve actual timber frame construction.

My fallback is to split out oak pegs from “green” logs I have. I guess I just do not like the apperance of exposed screw heads. I also have “Miller Dowels”. I am just not sure how sturdy they are? I have been using GKR finishing screws lately but they do leave a small hole. Yes, I am progressing from a construction to woodworking mind set.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, in that spice rack pic I posted, the through dominos work just like an exposed mortise and tenon. These did fit perfectly with no gaps, and were done this way for speed. I don't completely follow what you are planning with the sheet goods, but I think as long as you think of domino as a tenon, it'll be fine. Could also be used as a key or a plug.

[Jim Becker]

I see nothing wrong with the technique. The singular concern would be if you are accepting of the aesthetic that the end of the domino tenon presents since the profile isn't smoothly rounded on the ends and will require some filler.

[Kim Gibbens]

I don't see a picture of the spice rack.

[Marshall Harrison]

The picture is missing. Can anyone else see it or is the problem on my end?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Regarding the missing spice rack pic... try #2. I can also see #1 on my feed, so someone let me know if this one posts please.

384505

[Marshall Harrison]

Regarding the missing spice rack pic... try #2. I can also see #1 on my feed, so someone let me know if this one posts please.

384505

This one worked Steve. Thanks.

[Mike Holbrook]

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384521

I guess pictures are better than written descriptions. The lines on the bottom plywood pannel have 6mmx40mm through dominos. These Dominos & glue hold the plywood to the 2x4s bellow them. The lines that extend over both pieces of plywood are proposed Domino locations. I just fetched 5mmx30mm Dominos from the new home, thinking they might serve better to hold the top plywood piece as they are actually more for alignment. 40mm Dominos go through both pieces of plywood if the whole Domino is used. I am also thinking I may have too many Domino holes marked for alignment? I plan to put 3/4” x 3 1/2” SYP around the edges, to hold everything in place. I may use through Dominos again. I would like to be able to see where the Dominos are when I drill holes in the top. The plan is for the SYP edges to stick up about 1/4” so I can place masonite and other temporary tops over the plywood. I plan to drill 20mm holes 96mm appart in the top. Festools hole pattern.

If it is not clear in the picture. Moving the treaded casters up allows the Noden Adjust A Bench (AAB) base to rest on the ground, stabilizing the frame. There are two 3/8” threaded rods behind each stretcher too.

[Edwin Santos]

I was making a worktable recently. I was attaching plywood 22” wide to 2x4s. I used Dominos so I did not have to worry about screws when I started drilling dog holes in the top. I went all the way through the plywood with a 6mm/40mm Domino. It had occured to me that I might also want to know where the Dominos were when I started drilling.

The other obvious advantage of through Dominos is one only has to drill half as many Domino holes. Wondering if there is some disadvantage to this technique that I have not thought of?


I see nothing wrong with the technique. The singular concern would be if you are accepting of the aesthetic that the end of the domino tenon presents since the profile isn't smoothly rounded on the ends and will require some filler.

Hi,
There is no reason what you're proposing will not work.
To respond to the concerns of others that the domino will not totally fill in the mortise and leave gaps, that might require filler, there is a traditional craftsman's solution that can also be quite decorative.

What you can do is saw partial kerfs in your domino and during glue-up once seated, tap wedges into the kerfs which will spread the domino, fill in the end gaps and create a very tight joint. If there is an issue where the mortise ends are round and the edges of the domino are not, then sand or file the domino to bring it closer to the mortise end radius, and again, the wedges will do the rest for you. Here are some photos of through floating tenons wedged in this way (shop made, not the Domino brand). These photos are from some Krenov style shop stands I made, and obviously the tenon has been left proud, but in your case you will plane, rout or sand it flush.

I wish you were using something more stable than 2x4s to support the top. I'm concerned they will move over time and then your bench top will not remain flat. It could very well become twisted.




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Edwin

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I get it now Mike, that plan will work just fine. You do have way more than enough marked, which will look neat.

[Randy Heinemann]

Through Dominos should always work. The only issue is their appearance if one or both sides of the joint are exposed due to the ridges on the Domino surface. The smaller Dominos generally don't present an appearance problem as the ridges are small enough to be essentially non-existent to the naked eye. The ridges on the larger Dominos show up as "gaps" on the outside surfaces where they are exposed. For shop tables, drawers, work stands, etc., appearance isn't usually a consideration and through Dominos work well, are very strong and usually make the assembly easy and very sturdy.

[John Stevens]

Hi Mike, I used the same technique with 5mm dominos for shop cabinets—they’ve been holding up fine for five years or so, but glued on both pieces. Quite a time savings having to bore only one hole.

—John

[Mike Holbrook]

I am still thinking about a few changes to this worktable design. Festool tables are typically a single sheet of MDF drilled for Festool 20mm clamps, where “real” benches typically have heavier tops and vises. I have been vacillating on which way to lean with this bench/worktable. I am not sure how the Festool clamps I like using will work on a thicker table/bench. I don’t think the Quick Clamps or Screw Clamps will work. The Clamping Elements may work. I could also use the same: LV dogs, Hold Downs, Planing Stops, Bench Anchors and Surface Clamps I use on my Compact Hammer. The third option being making square wood dogs to fit in square dog holes.

I have a “tail vise screw” from LV that could be used to make a wide tail vise on the right end. The combination of 2x4s and 2- 3/4” pieces of plywood make a roughly 3” top, leaving only 15” in the center that would be 1 1/2” thick. Remember I plan to use a sacrificial piece of MDF or hard board on top of the plywood. The sacrificial top will be held in place by 3/4” x 3-3 1/2” SYP trim, aattached to the 2x4s and plywood on either side and end. The real question is whether or not to glue up extra pieces of 3/4” trim to make a conventional single row of dogs in?

[Jim Becker]

The native clamps do not like thicker work surfaces although there is no issue with things like 20mm dogs. If you want to be creative and only want/need one bench surface, you could do a hybrid that is more traditional bench on one end and around the apron with an MFT-type surface in the other end. Or...do a traditional, thicker surface as a base layer and a removable MFT-type top that can security sit on top of that. You do have adjustable height, so it will be easy to compensate for that extra thickness. In fact, if you build the auxiliary MFT-type top in the same manner as Timothy Wilmot's MFSC flippable top, you could have a very nice clamping arrangement on the backside of the MFT-type topper.

[johnny means]

Consider the wedged Domino stolen.:D

[Mike Holbrook]

Johnny,

I have done wedged tapered tenons in chair seats. The “through Dominos” that I am about to make in my second sheet of 3/4” plywood will not be visible if I put a sacrificial/replacable top over the two sheets of plywood.

Jim,
I have an old MFT table/bench. I bought a replacement MFT top which arrived damaged. I used the damaged top as the top for a work cabinet that I clamp a miter saw and router table to, giving me two different MFT surfaces. I also have a Compact Hammer bench I bought that has square and round dog holes. My idea is to use the AAB to extemd the other work surfaces. I also have wood and vises to make a heavier planing bench. Still I may use your idea to make a drop in or bench top extension. I will do a search for Timothy Wilmot’s MFSC.

[Jim Becker]

I have the older MFT, too. In case you didn't catch it, I posted a thread awhile ago about extending the legs to match the current 900mm height. The old-style MFT top is slightly larger, too. Timothy's project can be broken up and/or used as the basis for what I suggested to you. Having a clamping setup that holds parallel clamps level can be a really valuable addition and time saver when doing panels without a "real" panel clamp setup. 'Kinda like a third hand/arm. :)

[Bill McNiel]

I use through Dominos on drawers when aesthetically appropriate. The resulting joints are very strong and somewhat pleasing to the eye.

See post #14 https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260694-Musings-on-kitchen-drawers

[Mike Holbrook]

I see the Veritas components for making their benches only use a 2” thick top. I hope that means two pieces of plywood with a sacrificial top, equaling the same 2” thickness should be able to use all the Veritas bench: dogs, hold downs, planing stops, bench anchors, surface clamps.....?

Assuming this is the case, I will drill holes in my AAB work surface top to match the LV devices I have vs the Festool MFT clamps....

[Jim Becker]

You can drill whatever hole size best suits the dogs and other things you want to use, but still take advantage of a regular MFT-like grid. Best of both worlds!

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim,

Do you have a post or link to info. about the T drilling guide you made? I have a piece of the MFT table top I used to make my cabinet top with. It has a row of 5 holes that is almost the same width as my work table top. I have been thinking about using it to make a T drilling guide. The obvious issue is it will not last too long, being made of MDF. I am wndering if the guide you made was designed to work with drilling bushings or not? I have a 3/4”/19mm Woodowl drill bit and a drill press. I have been reluctant to buy single 1” or 25mm bits to work with the LV bushings I have. I think they would not get used except to drill bushing holes. Apparently drills for drilling these holes are frequently undersized anyway....

[Jim Becker]

Mike, sending you a message...

[Mike DeHart]

One option I've read but not tried is to make your own dominoes. These wouldn't have the gaps and can be made of contrasting wood if desired. If you search on festool owners group you can find out how they are made.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim,

Sorry apparently my SMC message box was full, clear now though.

Mike,

I have thought about making Dominos from split wood to improve the grain orientaion. Festool also makes long Domino sticks that can be cut any required length. Maybe after I get moved and have all my tools in one place.

There is another reason to leave the actual Dominos proud of the surface of the bench top. I will be able to mortise matching domino holes in the bottoms of the sacraficial tops I will use, which should help them align with the rest of the top.