Veritas Dovetail, Carcass, or Tenon saw

[Brad Keen]

I'm thinking about purchasing a new saw. Right now, I have a Japanese Small Rip Dozuki saw from Lee Valley. But I've been eyeing the set of three Joinery Saws. The Rip cut dovetail saw makes sense. But I'm not sold on the size of the tenon saw. I would imagine that it's larger than what I would typically need, so I wondered if a rip cut carcass saw would be easier to use.

Am I correct that I can use the carcass saw just as well as the tenon saw for cutting most tenons? And if that's the case, is it advisable to purchase both versions of the carcass saw?

Thanks!

[David Bassett]

I think LV has all the permutations of rip or cross-cut versus size now, but as I understand the traditional usage (and LV's three saw set) it covers three basic operations:

- Small (rip) dovetail cuts.
- Medium (cross-cut) tenon shoulder cuts.
- Larger (rip) tenon cheek cuts.

Of course, what you need depends on the size and type of work you're doing.

[Brett Luna]

I have that dovetail saw and the two carcass saws. I haven't felt a need for the tenon saws so far but then I don't do a great deal of tenon work by hand and then, not so large that I think they'd be needed.

[Phil Mueller]

I have the dovetail and both the rip and crosscut carcass saws. Unless you plan to do large joinery (work bench build), these will work very well for 99.9% of most furniture builds. Keep in mind though, if you plan to use dovetail guides or tenon cutting guides, you’ll lose 3/4”-1” depth of cut. Of course you can always start the cut with a guide and then finish without it.

[Brandon Speaks]

I have all three in rip. I believe depth is 1 5/8, 2 3/8, and 4. The tennon saw is bigger than I want for most tennons that I cut, but the carcass would not be big enough for a few that I have cut. If you dont see the need to cut bigger tennons you dont need the bigger tennon saw. Myself though the plan is to file the rip carcass with a tiny bit of fleam (like the bad axe hybrid filing) eliminating the need for a x-cut carcass. Honestly it x-cuts well enough that I probably will not bother for a bit. Saving the money on the extra carcass saw partially funded the tennon saw which can fill a need that the carcass cannot (although whether or not you have that need depends on what you build).

Take all this though with a grain of salt, I am fairly new to this.

[Chet R Parks]

I have all the LV dovetail saws and the tenon saws. Had the tenon saws for about 3 years now, there still in the box. They are big saws. The dovetail saws are superb. Might want to check LV inventory before ordering it seems they will be out of stock for awhile.

[Rob Luter]

LV makes fine saws. Think about what you really need. Where are your current tools coming up short? Invest in what you need to improve your game, not what you might use someday. You have plenty of time to supplement your tool set.

[Stewie Simpson]

If its not filed crosscut its not a dedicated Carcass Saw.

[steven c newman]

Afraid all of my "Joinery" saws were made by Disston.....sooo, I am good for now.

[Patrick Chase]

If its not filed crosscut its not a dedicated Carcass Saw.

Yep, that's technically correct though obviously inconsistent with how some makers brand their wares. IMO a rip-filed saw of that size is functionally a small tenon or large DT saw.

[lowell holmes]

Doesn't every one have four or five joinery saws? You should have one of each. :)

You will in time.

[Ron Bontz]

Aside from definitions.....And take it with a grain of salt, as I know nothing. If you wish to stay on the lower side of cost and still get quality you have two choices. A) buy both the Lee Valley "carcass saws". The Rip version will essentially be a small tenon saw with 2.625" under spine. You will rarely need more than that depth. The cross cut version with a finer pitch will, of course be used mostly on cross cuts, but yes, you really can cut dovetails with a cross cut saw. Lee Valley saws are an excellent bang for the buck. Option B): Look at Lie Nielsen's carcass saw. Not the tapered one. The 0.020" plate will afford a more rigid plate and hence better control, if you are not experienced with joinery saws. The finer pitch of 14ppi can do both jobs as well. If you ask nice, they may even file one 15 or 16ppi rip for you. This still allows you to cut tenons and dovetails, yet is fine enough to cross cut a bit. A couple of my saws are filed 18 and 19ppi, but that's another story. Naturally, as mentioned, if you wind up using joinery saws a lot you will at some point desire saws with different filings. A privilege most of our fore fathers could not afford. Best wishes.

[Patrick Chase]

Afraid all of my "Joinery" saws were made by Disston.....sooo, I am good for now.

On a positive note (and of course IMO) modern joinery saws are at least not significantly worse than old Disstons, as opposed to the situation with larger saws.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Have four Veritas saws, both carcass saws and dovetail and small cross cut saw. Interestingly, they all have the same kerf width and blade thickness. Sometimes I start with small saw and finish with medium. Tenon saws have thicker blades and wider kerf compared to medium and small ones. Instead, when I cut big tenons or bridle joints I start with Veritas medium and finish with Japanese Ryoba - again, because they have nearly the same kerf width. But I should also add that I still have to master sawing and maybe it is a not a very good habit to switch saws for building up sawing skill set.

Having many saws with different filing has also another benifit - each saw gets less usage and needs sharpening less often. I haven't need to sharpen any of my saws yet. :)

I think you got it right regarding priorities of which to buy first. Both versions of carcass saws is a very good set to start. And later you might want to add small ones. Tenon saws maybe last to follow, if some project would demand them.

[Warren Mickley]

I'm thinking about purchasing a new saw. Right now, I have a Japanese Small Rip Dozuki saw from Lee Valley. But I've been eyeing the set of three Joinery Saws. The Rip cut dovetail saw makes sense. But I'm not sold on the size of the tenon saw. I would imagine that it's larger than what I would typically need, so I wondered if a rip cut carcass saw would be easier to use.

Am I correct that I can use the carcass saw just as well as the tenon saw for cutting most tenons? And if that's the case, is it advisable to purchase both versions of the carcass saw?

Thanks!

The Veritas tenon saw has three small things that differ from a traditional saw; 1) larger depth of cut, 2) no taper from end to end, and 3) a spine that does not go the whole length. These all contribute to a wobbly toe on the saw; it is just awfully far from the spine. I think you would be happier with something a little smaller or at least a little less depth. The carcass saw is small for making tenons so an intermediate size would be nice.

Carcass saws are used for making dovetails on carcasses. I have used rip cut for decades. The carcass saw in the Seaton chest was filed rip.

I used just three back saws for most of my career. In 2011 I won a large Bad Axe tenon saw in a sawing contest, but I still don't use it often. The idea that one needs a half dozen of these saws is questionable.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm thinking about purchasing a new saw. Right now, I have a Japanese Small Rip Dozuki saw from Lee Valley. But I've been eyeing the set of three Joinery Saws. The Rip cut dovetail saw makes sense. But I'm not sold on the size of the tenon saw. I would imagine that it's larger than what I would typically need, so I wondered if a rip cut carcass saw would be easier to use.

Am I correct that I can use the carcass saw just as well as the tenon saw for cutting most tenons? And if that's the case, is it advisable to purchase both versions of the carcass saw?

Thanks!

Hi Brad

Of that group of saws, the one I recommend is the Veritas dovetail saw. It is a no-brainer for a new Western dovetail saw at its price. Nothing else comes close. Having said that, my favourite dovetail saw for hardwoods is the LN 15 tpi. I have used this for over a decade, have several dovetail saws, but this has remained the one I return to.

My favourite tenon saw is the Gramercy rip sash saw. This is 14" and 13 tpi with 5 degrees of rake. It has a thin plate for a saw this size, and cuts quickly. It is light and balanced. I have a 16" tenon saw, a Wenzloff, and it feels (and is) large. It is an excellent saw, but the smaller 14" is just a better user for most tenons. Now the Gramercy costs more than the three Veritas saws in your post. The point I want to make is that a 14" tenon saw would be nicer to use than a 16" with a deep plate. I have a Disston that I restored and refiled. It does an excellent job as well. I am not sure what other new saws are available in this size.

The third saw I would add to this list is a Z-saw fine tooth rip dozuki (9" plate). This is a wonderful saw for detail work and short crosscuts. It leaves a fine surface. Note that this saw and the Veritas dovetail saw will do all your crosscutting as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

The Veritas tenon saw has three small things that differ from a traditional saw; 1) larger depth of cut, 2) no taper from end to end, and 3) a spine that does not go the whole length. These all contribute to a wobbly toe on the saw; it is just awfully far from the spine. I think you would be happier with something a little smaller or at least a little less depth. The carcass saw is small for making tenons so an intermediate size would be nice.

Putting numbers on this: The Veritas tenon saw has 4" of clearance under the spine, and the spine ends 2" short of the toe. For those who weren't paying attention in trig (or didn't teach it like Warren, IIRC), that means that the very tip of the toe is about 4.5" from the spine.

In other words, it doesn't handle much differently from any other backsaw with 4" clearance.

Stiffness of the plate is proportional to its thickness cubed and to the inverse of clearance ~squared. The tenon saw's plate is .024", so it starts out with a ~1.7x stiffness advantage over the 0.02" plates in typical carcase saws. The difference in depth between it and the carcase saw reduces stiffness by about 3x. In the net it's therefore about 1 - 1.7/3 = 40% less stiff than the carcase. I don't think it's objectionable, others may.

Warren's broader point is spot on: You shouldn't choose a "deeper" saw than you need, because you're going to pay for that extra clearance in either plate thickness (more work), stiffness, or both.

[Brad Keen]

Thanks all for your comments and thoughts. Phew. There is a lot of information here. The project that I'm currently working on, which has made me wish I had a different saw is a set of 6 cabinet doors. I have a Japanese dozuki rip saw (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=50663&cat=1,42884,42898&ap=1). It works fine, but I'm not enjoying the handle and the angle that I have to work at. I hoped a different saw might help me rip the faces of the tenons easier. For this project, where the tenons are only 1.25" even the dovetail saw would work.