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Ken Parris
04-16-2018, 9:07 PM
Saturday I had three poplar logs cut into seat material for Windsor chairs. I need a simple formula for using borax to prevent powder post beetles. Can anyone help me. Thanks in advance.

Ken

John K Jordan
04-16-2018, 9:23 PM
Saturday I had three poplar logs cut into seat material for Windsor chairs. I need a simple formula for using borax to prevent powder post beetles. Can anyone help me. Thanks in advance.

Bora-care or Timbor are sometimes recommended by experts: http://nisuscorp.com/architects/products/BORA-CARE

JKJ

Jamie Buxton
04-16-2018, 10:52 PM
At the top of this Sawmills and Kiln Drying forum, there is a permanent post about home-made borax recipes.

Bob Bouis
04-17-2018, 12:17 PM
A while back I tried spraying some logs and boards with bifenthrin (cheap pesticide used for mosquito control) and it seemed to work well to prevent attacks on fresh cut boards. I am going to keep experimenting with it but it's something you might try. For the most part you really only need to keep them off it for a few weeks after it's cut.

roger wiegand
04-18-2018, 9:40 AM
+1 on Bora Care

Jim Andrew
04-18-2018, 7:37 PM
You could figure out a way to heat your boards to 140 degrees, and hold that heat for about 6 hours. No bugs can survive the heat including eggs. Maybe you could rig up a tent in your shop and put a halogen work light under the tarp to supply the heat.

Bob Bouis
04-19-2018, 11:08 AM
The problem usually isn't so much the larvae (which can't survive after the board dries, anyway); it's the adults that come and bore holes in your wood right after it's cut. I like the idea of using bifenthrin because it's very cheap and easy to spray and doesn't penetrate the wood or leave residue.

Now, I'm talking about false powderpost beetles because they're the ones that usually attack fresh cut lumber; true powderpost beetles will eat dry(er) wood, but they are much less common and only eat sapwood.

Mike Cutler
04-20-2018, 8:00 AM
You could figure out a way to heat your boards to 140 degrees, and hold that heat for about 6 hours. No bugs can survive the heat including eggs. Maybe you could rig up a tent in your shop and put a halogen work light under the tarp to supply the heat.

I like this idea!
I have a bunch of air dried walnut that I would like to use and was thinking of ways to ensure it's bug free before eI start to use it. I think I'm going to try this.
Thank you.

John K Jordan
04-20-2018, 9:46 AM
You could figure out a way to heat your boards to 140 degrees, and hold that heat for about 6 hours. No bugs can survive the heat including eggs. Maybe you could rig up a tent in your shop and put a halogen work light under the tarp to supply the heat.

I like this idea!
I have a bunch of air dried walnut that I would like to use and was thinking of ways to ensure it's bug free before I start to use it. I think I'm going to try this.
Thank you.

Perhaps take caution with the construction and monitor things - halogen lights get very hot. You will somehow need to get distribute the heat around the entire stack (fans?)

BTW, acknowledged wood expert Dr. Professor Gene Wengert writes on a sawmill forum in response to the question of treating for PPB using a kiln:
133 F is required throughout the entire piece of lumber and this includes every piece. No time is required, once there. To achieve this temperature, you will need an air temperature of at least 150F and 160 F is better and faster.

Perhaps drill a hole deep into the middle of the thickest board and use a thermocouple to monitor the temperature. It might be a huge waste of effort to have a board or two not get hot enough.

JKJ

Scott T Smith
04-20-2018, 10:31 AM
I like this idea!
I have a bunch of air dried walnut that I would like to use and was thinking of ways to ensure it's bug free before eI start to use it. I think I'm going to try this.
Thank you.

If you heat freshly cut poplar in this manner you will damage the lumber.

Heat sterilization works well for lumber that is already air dried below 16% or so, but it will severely degrade lumber that is above 25% MC.

Mark Bolton
04-20-2018, 11:54 AM
true powderpost beetles will eat dry(er) wood, but they are much less common and only eat sapwood.


This has been a topic of discussion pretty often as of late for some reason in the wood community. There are of course two types of PP beetles but the general consensus in the pest control world is that almost no wood boring insect likes dry wood and of course sapwood is always risky. There have been issues with bugs in "seemingly" dry heart wood and furniture but generally when you read into them it seems they are perhaps not actually in the driest of environments.

Having a sawmill, and a custom millwork business, I always pay close attention to this sort of stuff mostly out of fear from years of reading posts about having a single board in your shop and PP beetles infesting the entire place.

I have a hard time with a bit of this in that a lot of it just doesnt seem to read accurately when you dig into it deeply. I would most definitely be concerned with bringing large quantities of green wood into my shop. I definitely see when sawing certain species (soft maple is a prime candidate) that within a single day the boards, especially if they are nice juicy spalted boards, will be littered with holes. Im not sure I would be comfortable with the personal, and global, exposure to spraying every single board that comes off the mill with any pesticide and the cost and effort of boracare or home made treatments would render sawing even less financially viable than it currently is.

Im constantly trying to read up on the entire issues. I have personally in 30 years in the construction/remodeling world, never seen PP beetles or any other bug infestation in anywhere other than a wet corner of a building with a failing gutter, a damp crawlspace in an older home with hardwood framing and floor joists. I just have never seen it. In fact I was part of a project putting a foundation under a very old home that was INFESTED with powder post beetles. This was an old home, built close to the ground (literally inches and in some places touching). After excavation you could look at the floor joists and there were billions of beetle holes. You could peck on the joists with a hammer and sawdust would rain down. You could stand there pecking for 15 minutes and the sawdust would never stop. The home had been heated for its entire life with unvented gas heaters dumping hundreds of gallons of moisture into the home day in and day out.

After the foundation, proper vapor barrier under the basement floor, unvented heaters thankfully in the trash, proper HVAC system installed, humidity levels WAY low (perhaps too low), and the house is sawdust free.

It seems a testament to me that dry wood (perhaps not sap wood) is somewhat safe.

Sorry for the length but as I mention I worry about this often. The problem it would seem to the OP's situation is not having beetle damage while the material is green and getting it to the dry stage without the entrance holes.

Ive personally never had a problem with bug damage in freshly sawn lumber other than Soft Maple. I'd love to hear Scott's experience given the volume he processes.

Danny Hamsley
04-23-2018, 7:28 AM
The beetle that you see coming out of green lumber that is drying is the ambrosia beetle. Once the lumber begins to dry, they leave permanently. The lyctid powderpost beetle infests dry hardwood, especially ring porous hardwoods like ash, oak, and hickory. They are bad news. Spraying with disodium octaborate tetrahydrate will prevent infestation.

Bob Bouis
04-23-2018, 2:52 PM
Sorry for the length but as I mention I worry about this often. The problem it would seem to the OP's situation is not having beetle damage while the material is green and getting it to the dry stage without the entrance holes.

Ive personally never had a problem with bug damage in freshly sawn lumber other than Soft Maple. I'd love to hear Scott's experience given the volume he processes.

Hey, I really appreciated the long response. I've personally never seen powderpost beetles in dry lumber either. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I really doubt they're as voracious as everyone seems to think they are.

But as far as false powderpost or ambrosia beetles, I have had them attack fresh cut lumber, especially slabs where there is still bark attached. And, once, the things went into my shop and attacked a bunch of fresh cut, waxed, all-heartwood cherry bowl roughouts. That really made me angry.

Mark Bolton
04-23-2018, 4:12 PM
Hey, I really appreciated the long response. I've personally never seen powderpost beetles in dry lumber either. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I really doubt they're as voracious as everyone seems to think they are.

But as far as false powderpost or ambrosia beetles, I have had them attack fresh cut lumber, especially slabs where there is still bark attached. And, once, the things went into my shop and attacked a bunch of fresh cut, waxed, all-heartwood cherry bowl roughouts. That really made me angry.

Right but being rough outs they were likely roughed green?

Its an interesting conversation regardless and I agree, its one of those topics that seems to get along the lines of all dirty rags will immediately burst into flames in your shop so the default is panic. Caution is great.

I simply cant buy that PP beetles are all throughout the country and infest dry hardwood. That would mean if you left your screen door open for a while your kitchen cabs, dinning room furniture, hardwood floors, and so on, would all be highly susceptible to infestation. It just doesnt add up. Likley billions of dollars of furniture each year is stored in non-climate-controlled, poorly sealed, self storage facilities, in warehouses, stored on open front porches, transported in open pick up trucks and trailers, and so on. In 50 years, 30 in the construction world, I have not once had an exchange with someone who has lost a piece of furniture to PP beetle infestation and I live in the country where a lot of people store furniture in old dirt floor barns on pallets.

I have seen the issue endlessly in the areas mentioned, damp, wet.

Its odd.

Ken Parris
04-24-2018, 9:02 PM
Here, when you ask the question, you get a lot of good answers. Thanks everyone very informative and appreciated. This wood is obviousiy very wet so cannot be heated until it loses a lot of moisture. Hopefully, I can get the moisture down before I get to much checking, already have some and the ends are sealed.

Ken Parris
04-24-2018, 9:03 PM
Meant to add, don't let me stop you guys, keep the information and opinions coming.

Ken