Opinions...used Powermatic 66 (1998) or brand new grizzly G0690x

[brian cammarata]

I was about the to pull the trigger on a new (and my first cabinet saw) - grizzly G0690x.

A friend of a friend who has had a home workshop since the 80's is slowing down and offering up for his POWERMATIC 66 2 hp saw.

Saw is in great cosmetic shape, but nothing has ever been replaced.

Both are same spend / costs around ~$1800.

Powermatic a bit more involved due to location / pick up / transportation vs grizz being delivered to my door

Is the allure of shiny gold clouding my judgement?


Would anyone go used over new in this situation and price? 383735

[glenn bradley]

I am a Grizzly fan but, the PM is probably a superior machine but that price is high. I am not a PM expert and don't know if the late 90's was a good or bad spell for them. If it was a good spell, the PM will be better made, more solid but, lack a riving knife. There are plenty of PM 'mustard in the blood' types here who can probably tell you better about production periods. Your thoughts on a riving knife would factor in to your decision.

[Martin Wasner]

That's a really high price in my opinion for a 66. Some of that could be demographics.

Do some digging, powermatic had some good and bad years. It's probably a solid saw. I've got 99' that's been a decent saw. Smooth-ish movement of the trunnion, well cut threads on the arbor, reasonable vibration for a belt drive saw, and the motor has only been out once in the time I've owned it.

I had a 2004 that was a piece of garbage.

[Marshall Harrison]

Its really your decision and if that year was not a bad one for PM then you would do well either way but I would lean towards a riving knife.

But a lot more bragging rights come with the PM66. You too could become a mustard slob. :D

[David Utterback]

I have had a '96 version for about 15 years without any regrets. It also is 2 hp which is rarely challenged for sufficient power. It has a Shark Guard on it.

The asking price may be more reasonable if all the extensions are included. Even so, that seems pretty high. You might ask if the original motor cover is available.

[Dave Cav]

The Grizzly is on sale for $1695 right now. Like the other responses up thread, I think the price is about 50% high for a 90s vintage PM 66. However, if the price includes the outfeed table, mobile base, side extension, CI router table and the router, that makes it a little better, but still high, IMO. If you can live without a riving knife I feel the PM is a better saw. I have a 2 HP PM65 and it has plenty of power, and I've used lots of PM66s at school. They are simple and easy to work on.

I did have a right tilt Grizzly clone of the Unisaw a number of years ago. There was nothing wrong with it, fine saw, but I sold it when I got my Delta 12/14.

[Jeff Heath]

$1800 is a pretty high asking price, in my opinion, for a PM 66. I'm a big fan of the 66's, as I've restored several of them, and have one currently as my small shop saw. The made in the USA 66's, which a late 90's saw will be, were the beefiest, best made 10" cabinet saws available. Condition, of course, of each individual saw can vary based on whether or not it was abused. An in person inspection can tell you what you need to know in that regard. Check to make sure the arbor is running true, and listen for noisy bearings. At nearing 20 years old, it will need bearings soon, in both the arbor and the motor. No big deal, as they are easy to change on both, and buy you another 20 years of worry free service.

What makes 66's better than all others, are a few factors. Cast iron, made in the USA, is a different creature than the recycled cast iron used in asian machinery. It's not as soft, doesn't have as much recycled "junk" melted into it, and thus, behaves better. The number one reason, in my opinion, is just the size of the castings inside the saw (under the hood, so to speak). The trunnions, and casting mountings are just bigger and heavier. This makes them stronger, better, and more vibration dampening.

To put a value on a 66......mine is a 1985 (Gold era)....I completely disassembled it, cleaned it, re-machined the arbor face true (zero runout), new bearings for motor and arbor, new belts, new paint, brand new Biesemeyer "Made in the USA" 52" commercial fence (not the crap sold now) and shop made extension table. I think my saw is as well tuned as a 66 can be, and I would guess a value at around $1500.00. I paid $350 for it "raw", and restored it from there. I would not pay $1800 for one, no matter what, because I see them for sale all the time at auctions and clist for under $1000 in varying conditions.

Patience is a virtue. If you're in a hurry, you will pay more for that.....

[David Kumm]

i agree with jeff. The price is closer to what a PM 72 or Delta 12-14 would go for BUT, I would still prefer a good shape PM 66 to a new saw of the same price. Jeff explains it well and probably understates the quality differences. Dave

[Mike Hollingsworth]

No Riving Knife = No Deal

[brian cammarata]

$1800 is a pretty high asking price, in my opinion, for a PM 66. I'm a big fan of the 66's, as I've restored several of them, and have one currently as my small shop saw. The made in the USA 66's, which a late 90's saw will be, were the beefiest, best made 10" cabinet saws available. Condition, of course, of each individual saw can vary based on whether or not it was abused. An in person inspection can tell you what you need to know in that regard. Check to make sure the arbor is running true, and listen for noisy bearings. At nearing 20 years old, it will need bearings soon, in both the arbor and the motor. No big deal, as they are easy to change on both, and buy you another 20 years of worry free service.

What makes 66's better than all others, are a few factors. Cast iron, made in the USA, is a different creature than the recycled cast iron used in asian machinery. It's not as soft, doesn't have as much recycled "junk" melted into it, and thus, behaves better. The number one reason, in my opinion, is just the size of the castings inside the saw (under the hood, so to speak). The trunnions, and casting mountings are just bigger and heavier. This makes them stronger, better, and more vibration dampening.

To put a value on a 66......mine is a 1985 (Gold era)....I completely disassembled it, cleaned it, re-machined the arbor face true (zero runout), new bearings for motor and arbor, new belts, new paint, brand new Biesemeyer "Made in the USA" 52" commercial fence (not the crap sold now) and shop made extension table. I think my saw is as well tuned as a 66 can be, and I would guess a value at around $1500.00. I paid $350 for it "raw", and restored it from there. I would not pay $1800 for one, no matter what, because I see them for sale all the time at auctions and clist for under $1000 in varying conditions.

Patience is a virtue. If you're in a hurry, you will pay more for that.....


Thanks...I will bring the up the points and this is a 30 year saw - 1988 vintage , not 20 like you mention so that might even exaggerate the conditions further. Great advice all around!!!

[brian cammarata]

the seller has some after market riving knife. included. no idea on who made it 383753

[Marshall Harrison]

the seller has some after market riving knife. included. no idea on who made it 383753

All I see is a splitter. A riving knife rides very close to the blade and doesn't protrude above the blade. It also rides up an down with the blade so it works even for cuts that don't go all the way through the wood .

[David Kumm]

That looks like the original splitter and guard. A splitter is just as safe as a riving knife, it just doesn't retract. Not a deal breaker for a good condition saw. Dave

[Bradley Gray]

I agree that is an original guard/splitter.

I use my 66 every day. Mine is from the 60's and is an awesome saw. Super fast set-ups (6 turns from blade retracted to full height)

[Alex Zeller]

Not sure of your location or if you would want to do any work to a saw but in the last few weeks I have seen two PM66 (one green and the other gold) and a PM72 (what a beast) sell at auction near me for well under $1000 (including the buyer's premium). There's two more close by (both gold) that are very tempting and if the price stays under $500 on the 3hp single phase one I think I'll pull the trigger even though I'm limited on room. The other is a newer Houndaille (so of less interest to me) with a 5hp 3 phase motor but if it sells cheap enough I'd still be tempted. I've seen some other brands sell for cheap too. There was a nice looking General (they don't seam to have the same following as Powermatic but still a very nice saw) that sold for less than $200.

[Marshall Harrison]

Not sure of your location or if you would want to do any work to a saw but in the last few weeks I have seen two PM66 (one green and the other gold) and a PM72 (what a beast) sell at auction near me for well under $1000 (including the buyer's premium). There's two more close by (both gold) that are very tempting and if the price stays under $500 on the 3hp single phase one I think I'll pull the trigger even though I'm limited on room. The other is a newer Houndaille (so of less interest to me) with a 5hp 3 phase motor but if it sells cheap enough I'd still be tempted. I've seen some other brands sell for cheap too. There was a nice looking General (they don't seam to have the same following as Powermatic but still a very nice saw) that sold for less than $200.

I say again, my area is the Bermuda Triangle for Craigs list woodworking. Just old rusty garbage and sometimes companies going out of business. From the looks of the equipment they are trying to sell I know why they are going out of business. Old beat up tools that would need major rehab in order to turn out good product.

I wish I could see some of the stuff you guys mention. This is one reason I wanted to buy new.

[roger wiegand]

I wouldn't trade my ~1985 PM66 for a new Grizzley on a bet. Think about it-- it was a $3K saw in 1985. That's $7000 in 2018 bucks. Even if you have to spend $100 on bearings you've got a much better saw-- unless you think cast iron is like electronics and follows a Moores Law like curve to higher quality at lower prices over time. I don't.

I never see good saws cheap on the used market around here-- if they are cheap there is usually a pretty good reason.

[andy bessette]

The PM66 is a WAY better saw. Make him an offer he can't refuse.

[brian cammarata]

The Grizzly is on sale for $1695 right now. Like the other responses up thread, I think the price is about 50% high for a 90s vintage PM 66. However, if the price includes the outfeed table, mobile base, side extension, CI router table and the router, that makes it a little better, but still high, IMO. If you can live without a riving knife I feel the PM is a better saw. I have a 2 HP PM65 and it has plenty of power, and I've used lots of PM66s at school. They are simple and easy to work on.

I did have a right tilt Grizzly clone of the Unisaw a number of years ago. There was nothing wrong with it, fine saw, but I sold it when I got my Delta 12/14.

it does include all those things in the pictures, base outfeed,side, router as well as the original splitter. Thu texting the price dropped down to $1500 for all mentioned above. Still think its a touch over inflated, but getting closer.

[Don Jarvie]

The 66 is the better choice. See if you can get it closer to 1500. Keep in mind it has the mobile base, out feed table and cast router extension. I don’t think the base and outfeed table are original so their worth some money.

[andy bessette]

...the price dropped down to $1500 for all mentioned above...

That is a fair price for everything in excellent condition. Jump on this.

[Matt Day]

I agree that the 66 is a better saw and made in USA is a bonus. But, if you want a saw that’s minty fresh and with a warranty and customer support, the grizzly is a better choice for you.
If you appreciate American made and are mechanically inclined (you might want to replace bearings/belts), talk the 66 guy down to more like $1000-1200. That’s still rich to me for an older TS, when most people want shiny new or flesh sensing tech.

[Alex Zeller]

I say again, my area is the Bermuda Triangle for Craigs list woodworking. Just old rusty garbage and sometimes companies going out of business. From the looks of the equipment they are trying to sell I know why they are going out of business. Old beat up tools that would need major rehab in order to turn out good product.

I wish I could see some of the stuff you guys mention. This is one reason I wanted to buy new.

I've only bought 1 thing off Craig's list, a sand/ seed spreader for my tractor and the only reason I got a good deal on it is the seller didn't give the correct email address so it took a little work to get a hold of him. The only other thing I've done with C-List is get rid of two old riding mowers for free. When looking for used woodworking equipment I've found that doing a search for woodworking equipment auctions brings up several companies that deal with selling off equipment from businesses that are either closing or liquidating equipment they no longer use. Plenty of stuff will have extra safety attachments, like a riving knife and/ or a blade guard on an arm to satisfy their insurer. The one company I've bought from before doesn't seam to have any auctions south of North Carolina, at least at the moment. You must make sure that you understand their terms. Some places will load the equipment others you must load it.

I have a Harbor Freight 14" band saw that I got after giving up on Craig's list. There's an older Delta 14" that nobody has bid on yet that I'm keeping an eye on. If it looks like it'll sell for $50 or less I'll bid on it.

[Marshall Harrison]

I've only bought 1 thing off Craig's list, a sand/ seed spreader for my tractor and the only reason I got a good deal on it is the seller didn't give the correct email address so it took a little work to get a hold of him. The only other thing I've done with C-List is get rid of two old riding mowers for free. When looking for used woodworking equipment I've found that doing a search for woodworking equipment auctions brings up several companies that deal with selling off equipment from businesses that are either closing or liquidating equipment they no longer use. Plenty of stuff will have extra safety attachments, like a riving knife and/ or a blade guard on an arm to satisfy their insurer. The one company I've bought from before doesn't seam to have any auctions south of North Carolina, at least at the moment. You must make sure that you understand their terms. Some places will load the equipment others you must load it.

I have a Harbor Freight 14" band saw that I got after giving up on Craig's list. There's an older Delta 14" that nobody has bid on yet that I'm keeping an eye on. If it looks like it'll sell for $50 or less I'll bid on it.

Thanks Alex.

I'll do a google search fo the auctions. My son does okay buying and selling auto parts etc CL but woodworking tools just don't seem to be a CL thing in my area.

[Derek Cohen]

Out of curiosity, have you looked at other table saw alternatives to the Grizzly? For example, the Laguna Fusion (which is the same price) and the model made by Harvey?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[scott spencer]

Out of curiosity, have you looked at other table saw alternatives to the Grizzly? For example, the Laguna Fusion (which is the same price) and the model made by Harvey?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The Fusion is a hybrid, and a significant step down from either the PM66 of G0690. Less power, less robust underpinnings, and a much lesser fence.

I think the PM66 is a more robust machine than the G0690, but not necessarily the better choice. The G0690 isn't exactly flimsy...its still a pretty stout saw and has the benefit of a warranty, riving knife, and that new car smell. It really boils down your preferences and how you'll use it.

[Marshall Harrison]

The Fusion is a hybrid, and a significant step down from either the PM66 of G0690. Less power, less robust underpinnings, and a much lesser fence.

I think the PM66 is a more robust machine than the G0690, but not necessarily the better choice. The G0690 isn't exactly flimsy...its still a pretty stout saw and has the benefit of a warranty, riving knife, and that new car smell. It really boils down your preferences and how you'll use it.

OK folks, "Hybrid" is not a bad word. They may not be as robust or quite as heavy as some saw but they are still a great option for the weekend or hobbyist. The trunnions may not be as heavy but they are still mounted to the cabinet not the table and most like the fusion have fully inclosed motors so dust collection is improved. Also 1 3/4 or 2 horsepower will get you through most tasks.

Not everyone wants or needs a 5hp 230V 500 pound monster of a table saw.

Scott - this isn't aimed at you. I just quoted your post as an example. I'm with you on your other points. I too prefer new and a warranty. Plus with used you never know how bad the saw was mistreated and what problems you are inheriting..

[Jeff Heath]

I agree that the 66 is a better saw and made in USA is a bonus. But, if you want a saw that’s minty fresh and with a warranty and customer support, the grizzly is a better choice for you.
If you appreciate American made and are mechanically inclined (you might want to replace bearings/belts), talk the 66 guy down to more like $1000-1200. That’s still rich to me for an older TS, when most people want shiny new or flesh sensing tech.

If you have enough mechanical inclination to work wood, you have also have plenty of it, in droves, to restore a quality made table saw. I have done 2 complete disassembly/restorations on PM 66's, and 3 PM 72's, and I can tell you they are one of the simplest and easiest machines to restore and setup. Only jointers are simpler and easier.

Anything can be turned into "minty fresh" with a little elbow grease. As far as being "new with a warranty" goes, a quality saw like a PM 66 doesn't need a warranty. A big part of the problem I personally have against the new asian machines is how many times I actually see it reported that the warranty is actually needed, because of poor build quality to begin with.

Food for thought....here are just a couple pictures of Powermatic train wrecks, totally abused machines, that I restored, back to "minty fresh" that will still be working perfectly, no warranty needed, 50 years from now, with just a little bit of annual maintenance. These are still machines....so, yeah.....you've got to tune them up and clean them up a little once or twice a year. Less frequent than an oil change on your car, and far less work.

First, my current PM 66. All done for under $1000, including new fence, bearings, paint, and Forrest WW2.

383798

383799

Here's an even worse Powermatic 72 from 1964. Had the tables reground. This one came with the full cast iron extension. Phenomenal saw when finished. Never should have sold it. All in, under $1000 also, including the regrind.

383800

383801

All finished

383802

I don't think you'll ever regret erring on the side of overall quality. When I was first starting out 30 years ago, I didn't know any better, and there wasn't an internet forum to get good, sound advice from. I made a lot of machine purchasing errors, all of them quite costly. In the end, I upgraded all my asian made machines to quality vintage iron, and lost thousands of dollars selling those turds. Whatever you end up spending on the used Powermatic 66, you'll be able to keep it for a decade or two, and if you decide to move up to a bigger, better saw down the road, you'll be able to easily sell it and get your investment back, too. There has always been a good market for quality, Made in the USA, woodworking and metalworking machinery. Quality doesn't go out of fashion, even when green paint does.

[Marshall Harrison]

Those are some fine looking restorations Jeff. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of your flips. But I don't have the time or tools myself.

[johnny means]

1800 for a 20 year old 66 sounds insane. I've purchased similar vintage Martin's and SCMIs for that price.

[Martin Wasner]

1800 for a 20 year old 66 sounds insane. I've purchased similar vintage Martin's and SCMIs for that price.

For whatever reason, powermatic has a fanatical following. I've got a pair of model 27 shapers I'm looking forward to dumping on Craigslist. I bet they'll be gone in less than a week, and will pull $1500 each.

[lee cox]

I would rather have an old PM66 than a new Grizzly saw. You look like you are starting with a PM66 in better shape then most. Maybe offer a little less.

[brian cammarata]

1800 for a 20 year old 66 sounds insane. I've purchased similar vintage Martin's and SCMIs for that price.

that's what I thought and it was 30 years old, not 20. I talked the guy down to $1500. Wouldn't budge off that. I passed, so I guess it wasn't meant to be for me

[Bryan Lisowski]

Even at $1500 I would prefer the PM to the grizzly, especially with the other stuff included. I mean figure out the price to outfIt the grizzly to comparable. Don't forget to factor in the cost of plywood and time. I know we like woodworking, but making shop furniture is kinda boring.

[Ken Grant]

I have two grizzly 1023s in my shop currently. I think I have less then $1k in both of them combined. I also have quite a bit of time on a PM66 at my old boss's shop. I think the 66 is a better quality saw, but I have literally run miles of wood across my Grizzly saws and they have not given me any issues.

On fixing up old woodworking machines-I have restored a few, and here is my experience. It is fun (for me anyway), you will learn how the machine works in a way you never would otherwise, which I think is beneficial. It is also a mess-dirty rusty greasy, etc., and it takes up space in your shop. It also takes a lot of time, especially if you have never done it before. So, if you could be billing $xx/per hour, you would likely be better off doing that and just buying something that is plug and play.

[David Kumm]

When buying used machines, age is an inverse issue. Older is almost always better from a build quality standpoint. A 30 year old PM is as well built or better than a 20 year old one, which would be better than a 10 year old one ( if still made ). I've got machines from every decade and some of the same models made years apart. I've yet to find a machine made after 1960 where the newer model is built as heavy as an older version. Doesn't make the older better or newer worse, but usually the older cast iron is ground more flat, the steel gauge is heavier, the extrusions are thicker, and the ease and ability to adjust is greater. I'm not advocating that used is for everyone, but if going that route, assuming newer is better is generally a mistake. Dave

[Dave Cav]

Jeff, that PM72 looks great. Did you run out of the hammertone brown? I'd love to have a 72, but my 12/14 will still pass the penny test almost ten years after the rebuild.

[Matt Day]

Jeff, I’ve restored a couple table saws (PM65 and a Uni) and other machines, so I have some experience with restorations.

There are plenty of woodworkers who have no idea what’s going on inside the machine or want to know, or who want to spend their time woodworking instead of fixing machines. So my point was, a new saw is a good call for some people.

[Don Jarvie]

I have a 74 66 I wouldn’t get rid of for any saw other than a PM 72.

I’d call him back and take it. As it was said age has nothing to do with it. You want quality and the old American tools had that.

[tom lucas]

it's a table saw. It cuts wood. Buy the one that saves you time and money. I doubt you'll see a difference in your projects, no matter which you choose.

[lee cox]

I bought a old 1950s Unisaw I bought a few years ago. All I have had to do is replace the belts. It runs great. It tunes better than any other saw I have had. The top is dead flat.

[andy bessette]

Unsubscribed.

[Matt Day]

Unsubscribed.

Aww Shucks.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

If you have enough mechanical inclination to work wood, you have also have plenty of it, in droves, to restore a quality made table saw. I have done 2 complete disassembly/restorations on PM 66's, and 3 PM 72's, and I can tell you they are one of the simplest and easiest machines to restore and setup. Only jointers are simpler and easier.



Jeff, you did some beautiful work, I'd be proud to have one of those in my shop. Can't say that about most new saws, ie that Griz in question. Nothing against Griz, but new tools just lack something, some subtle sense of style that the vintage designers understood. I think vintage tools are inspiring, new stuff is usually not.

I agree with your quote too. Some don't have any experience and are unnecessarily worried they will mess something up though.

[Wayne Jolly]

I paid $800 for my 3 HP 1996 PM66 and that included 52" tables, The splitter, Powermatic mobile base, two blades (one of which was a fairly new Forrest WW2 that was still sharp as heck), an SD508 Dado set that barely had any dust on it, About 20 bd ft of cherry lumber and some odds and ends pieces that included some birds eye maple. As I was getting ready leave to the seller said I could also have his water stones which were a 6000 grit and a 10000 grit. AND I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA fer cryin' out loud. :-)

Wayne

[Jeff Heath]

Jeff, I’ve restored a couple table saws (PM65 and a Uni) and other machines, so I have some experience with restorations.

There are plenty of woodworkers who have no idea what’s going on inside the machine or want to know, or who want to spend their time woodworking instead of fixing machines. So my point was, a new saw is a good call for some people.

Matt,

I agree with almost everything you say. Not everybody wants to spend what little spare time they have wrenching on a machine in order to use it. My point was only that, for me, making a living with my workshop, that it always makes sense to buy quality and invest the necessary time, which is a one-time expense for all time. I will heartily disagree that buying a new asian machine makes sense to anybody. There are enough fully restored 66's, Unisaw's, and the like, available for $1500 or less around the country to be able to avoid buying anything made out of asia. There are plenty of guys that like restoring OWWM's, and when finished, flip them to finance the next restoration. They aren't really woodworkers, but thoroughly enjoy restoration projects. I see Unisaw's and 66's, fully restored, available for under $1500, all the time. So, I'm just reiterating that I wholeheartedly agree with you, but you don't have to do the wrenching yourself if you're looking for a quality saw.

I have restored all the machines in my shop, and have enjoyed the process. Like previously stated upstream, it is truly the very best way to know and understand how to get the most out of a machine, when you completely understand how it was engineered to work correctly. The same can be said about a 3 hour restoration project on a vintage hand plane. Best way to learn how they work, and when I taught hand tool use in my shop for 15 or so years, I always told the eager and able minds to start out with an old Stanley, and restore it yourself. You will learn so much about how they work, and what makes them work well in the process.

For those who really, really don't want to spend a lot of money on a table saw, but want something really decent to work with, I'd suggest one of the older Delta Homecraft 8" saws, or one of the Craftsman 8" or 10" saws. They are old, American made, and those of you who have never tried using one would be absolutely shocked how really good they are for small saws. I bought this little Delta Homecraft 8" saw, model 34-500, for taking with me to jobsites for onsite builds. I paid $20 for it at a garage sale, and restored it in a weekend. I found a 1 hp Delta replacement motor for it for $10 (they come with 1/2 hp motors, and I wanted more umph), replaced the bearings on it, and married them together. What a great small saw. With an 8" Freud blade ($29), it has a 2" DOC, and the 1 hp motor handles hardwood, plywood, or 2X12's (construction lumber) with great ease. I still have this saw and have less than $100 invested. It took me a weekend to take it apart, derust, replace bearings, and put it back together. Probably about 8 hours.

383865

motor
383866

The original fence works surprisingly well, and is the type that locks at both the front and rear of the table. Any hobbyist or occasional woodworker would be hard pressed to beat the value of one of these saws, and have plenty of money left over for other tools, as well as a stack of lumber to work.

Made in America in 1949. Still a workhorse for me today.