Guide System for drilling bench etc. holes LR 32/Festool

[Mike Holbrook]

I am in the process of making a work table\bench and a heavy Roubo bench for my new workshop. I will have limited space. I am using a Noden Adjust A Bench base to make the work table bench so it can be moved to multiple other: machines, benches, MFT...as an out feed or to just make a larger work surface in multiple locations.

I have a few Festool clamps and find them quick and easy to use. I would like to make 20mm holes at Festtol spacing (96mm, I think), particulalry on the adjustable height work surface. I may also use it to space 3/4” holes on the heavy bench.

Amazon offers a 55” Guide LR32 fence for $145. I have a Festool 1400 router. The big kit in a systainer, apppears to offer options for connecting multiple types of routers and other things I may not need. The $530 kit price may be more than I need. I have multiple Festool systainer/sortainers boxes, not sure I need more. Will the LR32 Guide Rail and my OF 1400 router and existing router guide rail guide handle my needs? Festools price for the LR32 guide rail base for my router is $270, which means I might as well just buy the kit....???

[Victor Robinson]

Mike,

To use the LR32 system at the least cost, you need a LR32 guide rail, the $270 LR32 "Hole Drilling Set" (583290), and of course, a compatible router. The $270 set lacks a systainer, clamps, and the 5mm and 35mm router bits which are included in 584100.

Now that all being said, I don't think the LR32 is the best way to make a 20mm dog hole grid that is accurate. I've done it that way and the results were fine for dog holes but not for getting the precise squareness of a Festool or CNC'd worktop.

The UJK Parf Guide system is actually a more accurate and less expensive option.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Victor...either the UJK Parf Guide system or a shop-built "tee square" jig to drill with a router and a 20mm bit is the way to go unless you also plan on doing a lot of 32mm cabinetry. I made my own jig like described when I was working on the MFSC project awhile back.

BTW, you're correct that the spacing is 96mm

[Mike Holbrook]

I got involved in projects and forgot about this thread until I got back to the actual issue on my work table/Adjust A Bench.

I actually thought about buying the Parf Drilling System. I forgot I had ordered the LV Dog Hole Bushings, both the 3/4” and the 20mm. Now I am thinking about taking Jim Becker’s suggestion and making a T Square, that can use the LV Bushings. Both bushings appear to be the same diameter.

I actually called LV regarding the Wood Owl drill bits they started carrying recently. I love my Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits. I have had one small issue though. The 3/4” bit I have is actually 19mm. I called LV to check to see if their 3/4” bit was actually 3/4” or 19mm. LV being LV, the guy helping me went and actually measured one. Turns out theirs is 19mm too. The guy helping me suggested that the 19mm bit fit their 3/4” bushing about perfectly. The only issue remaining is the Veritas Hold Down I have does not like 19mm holes, although to be fair the odd threading on the sides tends to have issues with most holes. Who would have thought 1mm could cause all these issues?

Further research shows the 3/4” bushing rests in a 1” hole (25.4mm) and the 20mm rests in a 25mm hole. I realize LV offers bits for drilling the holes, although they are often out of stock. The LV brad point bit appears to be specically designed for the job but is about twice as expensive as the longer and I suspect better Wood Owl bit. Maybe it is time to invest in Fostner bits that could do this job? Guess I get to research whether Fostner bit kits are actual imperial or metric equivalents...

[Mike Holbrook]

I drug out my LV 3/4” and 20mm bushings. I spent quite a while trying to compare the two. Using a Fastcap Metric/Standard measuring tape I was hard pressed to find a measurable difference between the two. I tried holding the tops of the two bushings together and looking at a lamp through them. I still see little or no difference. I checked the directions that came with the 20mm bushing against the directions that came with the 3/4”. You guessed it, the instructions are the same. Now I wonder if the Parf system is some sort of compromised measurement as well?

There is a thread running on the Neander Forum on a similar subject.

[Peter Kelly]

Been thinking of ordering one of these and a 30mm bushing: http://www.cncdesign.co.uk/pro-jig-replacement-perforated-festool-type-mft3lp-top.html

http://www.cncdesign.co.uk/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/926507dc7f93631a094422215b778fe0/r/e/replacment-festool-type-top-jig-1000-1.jpg

Looks considerably simpler than the alternatives..

[Mike Holbrook]

Looks like an attractive price if shipping for a large object is not too bad. Not sure how one drills the holes? Looks like the bushings shown are for positioning the jig, not drilling holes.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I believe you initially start the first row with two small indexing holes and then use that row to position the next by inverting it so that the 20mm short dogs are in the two end holes.

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess Peter is in the UK?

I believe I see the bushing holes Jim mentions in the link, picture, Peter provides.

It seems one has to decide on a system and then buy the parts to make it work.....

The information Jim sent me seems to suggest he uses a 30mm router bushing to position a 20mm bit to drill his holes. The system Peter links us to apparently uses a smaller indexing system. I have LV bushings that apparently require drilling 25mm for 20mm bushings or 1” holes for 3/4” bushings. I don’t think I have a 25mm or 1” bit to drill the holes to hold the bushings. My old set of Irwin drill bits is not marked and missing a few larger bits, which is why I am not sure.

I wonder if anyone cares to comment on interchanging 20mm & 3/4” bench accesories in 20mm or 3/4” holes? Sure would make things simpler. I wonder whether there is a significant enough difference to warrant drilling both? It would seem that once a hold down or two was whacked with a wooden mallet a few times any difference might melt away?

[Jim Becker]

If you want your dogs to be consistently accurate, then matching them to the hole size is important. The metric measurement of a 3/4" dog (which is likely slightly undersized to be usable in a 3/4" hole) is going to really sloppy in a 20mm hole. And dogs made for the 20mm system are going to be too big to fit in a 3/4" hole. So yes...choose your system for the holes and dogs.

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess we need to talk about specific benches and bench devices. I like the Festool clamping devices but I do not think they apply to many of my bench challenges. I have an MFT table and a sawing/glue up cabinet top with an actual MFT top in it. The cabinet is also designed to host multiple tops. I am thinking I will modify it for Festool clamp use.

The AAB I am designing to suplement the smaller benches I have and plan to build. I have grown accustomed to shorter benches. They are easier to walk/work around and I will be working in a smaller shop soon. On my main planing, chiseling.....benches, I plan to use: LV Surface Clamps, LV Hold Downs, LV Planing Stops, LV Bench Anchors... as my main work holding devices. I believe most of these devices are available with 3/4” or 20mm posts, some of the posts can actually adjust to the hole they are in. The LV Hold Down has sharp raised edges that tend to grip even in larger holes....Dogs can obviously be ordered or made in different sizes.

The question then becomes can the bench accessories I mention be adapted to work in both types of holes? Does it even matter what size holes I drill? I am attempting to standardize my shop for Wood Owl drill bits, and would prefer not to buy imperial, single purpose bits. LV offers a large selection of these bits, which turn out to actually be metric. I am also trying to convert to/think in metric.

[Mike Holbrook]

I also find that LV makes Bushings for drilling smaller holes too. These bushings apparently screw into 5/8” host bushings. Maybe I make a T jig, as Jim did, which has a small indexing Bushing, say 5mms, and a seperate 20mm bushing to drill bench dog holes. I believe the smaller bushings can all thread into the 5/8” “mother” bushing, which may justify a place for them in my kit anyway.

[Jim Becker]

If you're considering moving to metric (as I have already recently done for my woodworking projects with the exception of CNC), then it might make sense to embrace that with your new "Swiss cheese table"...especially since you already have the MFT, etc. Being able to use the accessories across multiple work surfaces is a handy and, honestly, prudent, flexible thing. That's my thought. I already wish that my "bench bench" had 20mm holes so it was consistent with my MFT, etc., in that respect...

[Mike Holbrook]

Going Metric
Nothing to do but to do it, and this is a good place to start. I believe I will be better off starting now than later, for the reasons Jim mentions. Still have to figure out which Wood Owl bit to use.

I called LV. They say the 13/16 Wood Owl bit is actually 20mm. The 1” bit is actually 25mm, in case anyone else needs that info. I Just ordered both bits. I will post again if I have a problem getting the Wood Owl 13/16-20mm bit to fit in the LV 20mm bushing, or if the 1”-25mm hole does not fit the 20mm bushing.

I am also ordering smaller drill bushings: two 5/8” inserts and bushings for 5mm,7mm,8mm. Planing to use the smaller hole to index my T jig with.

[Mike Holbrook]

Turns out the 13/16 Wood Owl bit is not 20mm. It is 21mm, written on the side of the one I just got from LV. Close to the 5% difference Rob Lee said in another thread may be a problem....Very confusing to mark them in imperial when they are actually metric.

I have no idea what my next move will be. I suspect a 21mm Wood Owl bit isn’t going to fit in a 20mm bushing.

[Jim Becker]

That's a bummer, Mike...you really do want a real 20mm cutter for the holes so that the dogs work as they are designed. They are all a few thou under so they slip in and out; some more snuggly than others. 21mm makes for major sloppy!

[Mike Holbrook]

I called LV again about the continuing issues I am having drilling accurate holes in bench tops. I talked to a very nice lady and we finally decided I needed to send an email with actual invoice and part numbers, which I have done. No responce yet.

One of the problems I am finding is router bushings and router bits are not typically designed to drill through thick bench tops. The Parf guide kit and the LV bushings explain in the directions that they can drill trough a 2” top. Unfortunately most bench tops these days are much thicker 3-5”. The top for my Noden bench will be two sheets of 3/4 ply and a sacrificial 3/4” piece of MDF, making it over 2”. Parts of the top have 1 1/2” 2x under the plywood. I plan to make my main hardwood bench at least 3 1/2” thick.

I understand the value of the Festool hole matrix and the accuracy and utility it provides. It just seems like there is no real system for drilling holes in a bench top with that same degree of accuracy. I guess one could start the holes with a Parf guide or router and bushing and then finish the holes with an appropriate sized auger drill bit, but my guess is that would introduce some inacuracy that might throw the matrix off. It seems the answer is some sort of jig designed to work with auger bits.

The main issue I seem to have identified is, Wood Owl may or may not make a 20mm drill bit, which seems very odd. LV stocks a 3/4” which is actually 19mm. The next size is 13/16, which is actually 21mm. The regular Wood Owl Ultra Smooth drill bits are 7.5” long, which can drill through 3-5” bench tops, without causing any significant tear out. The drill bits LV sells, when used in their bushings ( designed to be used in 1 1/2” stock) may not be long enough. The Parf guide is designed to work with specific bit shafts. I see no way to use regular auger bits with with the Parf guide. I have checked a few other suppliers of Wood Owl bits. The imperical equivalent chart seems to skip over a 20mm bit.

[Dave Sabo]

This system is plenty easy to use, accurate, and repeatable.

https://www.festoolproducts.com/router-jig-for-festool-mft-style-holes.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkoCRuqSL2wIVlMDICh2ebwH5EAQYBCAB EgJysvD_BwE

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I suspect if you use the Parf system or a router setup, there will be a deep enough hole for you to use a good quality spade bit to complete the hole through to the bottom. The hole will act as a guide for the bit. As long as the top couple inches are clean, you'll be good for the dogs.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for tha link Dave,
So the jig you link to appears to use a 30mm router drilling ring and 20mm router bit to make holes in Festool table tops. I suspect that it would work if employed as Jim suggests above, to start a hole that an auger, spade or Fostner bit with extender could then drill to full depth.

The jig you reference appears to be manufacturerd to the same tolerances as Festool offerings, so I assumed it would be as accurate. I may have to go that route as I am not finding such a jig, designed to work with Auger bits. The Parf system uses Fostner bits which may have the same depth limitations as router based systems, maybe a little deeper.

I have a drill press, which may lower an auger or Fostner bit accurately enough to to not bugger up the exatly 20mm hole, exactly positioned.

The Parf system looks like it winds up costing $250 for everything needed. My issue is I am having trouble shelling out the money for a bunch of pieces that only solve a single issue. Dave’s recomendation costs half as much and requires less parts, which would be nice. Still trying to figure out if both systems require the same amount of set up complication. I am thinking Dave’s sloution may require a little less complicated set up. I am also calculating on what kinds of drill bits I want to maintain sets of: Augers vs Fostners vs Brad Points.......Also calculating on whether or not I need the accuracy of a Festool table on the hole grid of a heavy workbench.

[Peter Christensen]

If in your shoes I would find a cabinet shop with a CNC router and see what they will charge to do all the holes for you. Keep in mind the hole doesn't need to be 20mm all the way through, you can back drill with a larger bit for the remaining thickness.

[Dave Sabo]

Mike, for your Noden bench I don't see why you couldn't use the dominofix to cut each 3/4 sheet individually before you glued them up. It will easily handle the 3/4" sacrificial sheet by itself, when it comes time to replace that. As long as your sheets are sized exactly the same you shouldn't have any alignment issues.

Why do you want the holes to go all the way through on the thick tops ? I don't think you'll be able to use the L-type clamps on a 2 1/4" thick top , and I'm pretty certain you won't be able to feed them through a top that's 3-4" thick either. All the dogs and surface clamps I'm familiar with only need around 20-25mm of depth to engage.

That depth is easily achievable with the dominofix or any of the other ones for that matter.

What am I missing here ?

[Karl Kaucher]

Mike, I encourage you to take a look at the Parf Guide system and consider using it to make a Stanton Bench. I know the 20mm dog hole system and spacing has been discussed nearly to death in this thread, so I'll try to avoid the re-hashing. If you're not familiar with the Stanton bench, search YouTube for Dave Stanton. He's an Australian woodworker who has designed a table-top bench that incorporates 20mm dog holes, t-track, and some strips of the "grippy" strips you'd find on a tracksaw track to hold it in place. It's really a clever system. Check it out!

[Ben Abate]

Dave is correct about the “L” shaped clamps not working with a top thicker than 1”. I know this because I’ve built more than one MFT top. 25.4 mm needs to have the edges softened in order for the “L” clamp to angle thru the top

For a Roubo style bench I have used a drill bit like a Forstner bit in a drill press. Roubo’s are two piece tops about a foot or so wide. Setup the drill press with extension tables and a fence then use a Zobo bit from FESTOOL with a backer board underneath. It works perfectly that’s the beauty of building a Roubo style bench you can take the top to the drill press for accuracy and reach to either side of the top by turning it end for end

good luck on the build

[Mike Holbrook]

Some great thoughts guys, I appreciate them.

I have an MFT table and a cabinet with a Festool insert in it that work great with all the Festool clamps. On my existing Hammer bench I use: Veritas Planing Stops, jigs I have made with Veritas Bench Anchors, Veritas Surface Clamps, dogs, and Veritas Hold Downs. I think the Veritas Hold Down is the only accessory that will need deeper holes. I plan to use the same accessories on the Roubo and the Noden ATB.

[Mike Holbrook]

Something occured to me while working on my Noden AAB bench. My plan was always to make the bench with a raised edge so I could use different tops on the same bench: MDF, Tempered Masonite, a piece of HD poly 3/8- 1/2” thick that Lowe’s sells in 4x8 sheets, cheap foam insulation (great for cutting up sheet goods with a Festool saw), rubber horse stall matts from Tractor Supply....

Currently I have two pieces of 3/4” plywood on a 6’x22” 2x4 base. What if I make 20mm holes in both of those sheets and then make both a 3/4” and 20mm top to fit over that base? I think my LV 3/4” devices would work in the 3/4” top and the Festool clamps would obviously work in the 20mm top. I think the slightly smaller shafts on the LV clamps are designed to work in 5/8” thick tops? Certainly the slightly larger 20mm, lower portion, would not hinder the 3/4” clamps. If the LV clamps do not grip well in the 3/4 x 3/4” holes I might be able to place a sheet of 1/8” or 1/4” rubber matt below the removable top, only drilling 3/4” diameter holes through it.

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[Jim Becker]

Mike, I think that would work fine for things like dogs. Hold-fasts, however, I'd avoid without the requisite thickness for them to be effective. The easiest way for that would be when 20mm is on top of 29mm, but you'd have to find hold-fasts designed for 20mm, although the 3/4" "might work, despite the extra wiggle room. Requires testing. It might be worth making a "foot square", give or take, mock-up of your proposal so you can test dogs and other things with various combinations.

Another thought...make both 3/4" and 20mm holes in the base layer(s) in an offset grid matrix and tailor the individual removable surfaces so they match the matrix for the hole size they accommodate. That should work with pretty much anything.

[Mike Holbrook]

We have the same concerns Jim. Even though I have seen people post the idea of drilling the bottoms of dog holes larger so hold fasts work.....and 20mm is close to 3/4” to start with... Odd # holes 3/4”, even 20mm works too.

I may do some experimenting with my LV Hold Down, as you suggest, as I figure it may be the hard one to fit with all the raised rings on the sides...The Surface Clamp can actually tighten in the hole so it may work better.

[Mike Holbrook]

I found the drill bits, in the picture below, on Amazon. They just arrived. I am hoping thses 6-6.5” bits may allow me to drill dog holes in benches that are 3.5-5” thick. I have been unable to find a 20mm WoodOwl bit. Even though they are labeled as imperial, much research has revealed that these bits are actually “metric imperial equivalents”. The result being that the actual bits go from 19mm to 21mm skipping 20mm, which seems very odd as the Wood Owl bit in the picture marked as 3/8” is actually 9.5mm, just under 3/8”.

The bits in the picture below were just under $30 for the 5 metric bits, (16mm, 18mm, 20mm, 22mm, 25mm, a bit extension and an allen wrench to adjust the screws in the extension with). These bits actually have four spurs and are reported to be hardened steal. The shanks are 1/4” hex. The bit protruding from a piece cut off a Festool table top (that I plan to use as a hole drilling guide) seems to fit the 20mm hole reasonably well.

Maybe these bits will finally provide a system for drilling 20mm holes through bench tops over 2” thick. I needed a 25mm bit to drill a hole for a 20mm bushing anyway.

The bit on the far left side is a Dewalt “Bullet” bit, sort of like a brad point with a dull point. These bits work fairly well but tend to leave rough edges. The hole in the edge/handle, to the left of the bits, was drilled with the 3/8” Bullet bit in the picture.

388858

[Steve Hubbard]

Last year, Woodpecker offered a Hole-Boring Jig as a OneTIME Tool. Might find one of those on the secondary market.

[Mike Holbrook]

Steve, I think I found that and did a little searching with negative results. About to do some testing with the bits (above), bushings which I bought from LV and a section of a Festool table I already have. I am hoping that some combination of 3/4” and 20mm holes will give me a way to use my Lee Valley Hold Down and Surface Clamp which I like. The challenge is finding a design that will allow me to use the Festool Clamps I also like and use frequently in the same holes. 3/4” and 20mm holes are close in diameter to start with, which is motivating me to try various combinations of holes in multiple sheets of 3/4 ply and or MDF. I am going to run some experiments, like Jim mentions a few posts up. I will post the results.

PS
The new bits do not work like Wood Owls at all. The threads in the new 20mm bit stripped out in the plywood as soon as the bit hit the wood. The threads held in the SYP (back hole) a little longer but the bit started spinning in the solid wood quickly too. Once a bit starts spinning it heats up very quickly, heat can cause cheaper bits to dull. My Noden AAB bench does not have a vise, further experimentation will have to wait until I get to a bench with a vise.

The interesting thing, in my warped mind, is I do not see a visible difference between the new bit threads and the Wood Owl bits. I know the Wood Owl threads will pull a WO bit through just about any wood though. Another possible difference is the WO bits have three sharper spurs vs four “duller” spurs on the new bits. We could be back to sharpening issues again.

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[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Have been looking at both 20mm and 3/4" and if one should combine the two. Came across a template made by "Dutchy" that has the top drilled for both 20mm on a 96mm grid and 3/4" drileld on a 4" grid. Am attaching it here.

[Jim Becker]

"Hole-y" work surface, Batman!!! That's a lot of holes...for stuff to drop through. LOL (Thanks for posting that Marius)

In all seriousness...my mind has been formulating a next-generation bench top for my primary bench that would reflect more how I want to use it. While the primary grid would be a mirror of the Festool 96mm grid of 20mm holes, I still need to build in some accommodation for .75" holes so I can continue to use my beloved hold-downs. I'm not comfortable using them in the slightly larger 20mm holes because of the potential for the extra angle to damage/enlarge the holes prematurely. I'm thinking the same for the dedicated luthery bench I'm considering adding to my shop, too.