Negative rake angle (hook) handsaw

[Erik Florip]

I read one of the recent posts here about relaxing the rake of a saw to allow for a smoother start. Makes sense. I wanted to try doing the opposite...see just how aggressive I could get the saw filed. I didn't measure but I'm eyeballing about 8 degrees of hook.

It was a pain to file and just for the sake of trying it out. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but it was fun messing around with it. Videos are 5/8" pine and 4/4 birch. I made a few cuts in white oak- it performed similar as in the birch. I did have to re-tension the saw plate a few times.


Again, this was just for fun. I build a fair amount of handsaws and had a saw with a scratched plate that was donated to the project.

Pine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L85dAoJstio)

Birch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNn4Vst4nvk)

[Mike Baker 2]

Great Caesar"s Ghost, that's one mean saw!

[Richard Line]

I think I'm more impressed by how easy you seem to start the saw. About 8 deg. of rack is my limit at this point.
Wow and interesting.

[Justin Ludwig]

Again, this was just for fun. I build a fair amount of handsaws and had a saw with a scratched plate that was donated to the project.



Before seeing this post I actually came across some of your work today while perusing Instagram. What a coincidence. Keep up the good work and the sales will follow. Good luck!

[lowell holmes]

You could put the negative rake on the front inch or so of the saw and leave the remainder standard. That would allow a quick start and the smooth sawing.
Just a thought. . . ..

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Erik and welcome to the Creek.

Thanks for taking the time to record and post your experiment.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I appreciate you doing that. I had thought about trying it, but never got around to it.

[Erik Florip]

I think I'm more impressed by how easy you seem to start the saw. About 8 deg. of rack is my limit at this point.
Wow and interesting.

I build saws with a lower hang to them. It makes a big difference when starting the saw.

[Erik Florip]

Thanks! It's been a process.

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Erik,
No doubt you know this already, but much depends on technique, & the lower hang just reduces the downward resultant force. ( Hang angle + tooth rake/angle )All things work in unison to the users preference.
Best wishes

[Erik Florip]

Hi Erik,
No doubt you know this already, but much depends on technique, & the lower hang just reduces the downward resultant force. ( Hang angle + tooth rake/angle )All things work in unison to the users preference.
Best wishes

For sure. Ask any saw maker why they make their saws the way they do and you'll get all kinds of reasoning. At the end of the day, it's all about what the user prefers. I like em low so I build em low.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Now that is one aggressive saw, i have fooled around with a tooth pattern like that too though as you say its not really a practical thing.

[Steve Kaminska]

It's a good thing that saw has a back on it, otherwise you would have hit the floor at the end of the stroke on that pine!

[Warren Mickley]

I tried one of Andrew Lunn's rip saws about eight years ago. It was noticeably smoother than my own rip saw; it was also somewhat slower than my own.
Andrew's saw had more rake than mine and was probably filed more carefully than mine usually is.

I have used zero rake for forty years or more both on my rip saw and all my back saws. I don't start the cut on the back stroke and I tend to just start sawing. I think the optimum amount of rake depends on both skill set and preference. I have watched beginners learn to saw with the zero rake, however. Learning this way may actually encourage better technique because you need to emphasize saw speed rather than downward pressure to start the cut smoothly.

[Derek Cohen]

Agree Warren. Sawing with zero rake - especially starting the first stroke - is about a light touch ... letting the weight of the saw do the work. I am not sure what the current LN dovetail saws are sharpened at, but mine is zero rake. I struggled with it when I first bought it. It took a little time to get used to the bite. Now I would not have it any other way.

Eric, I am impressed with your control with so much negative rake. The saw certainly cuts fast ... perhaps too fast. A balance of speed and control is desirable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/images/rake-guidelines.gif
http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html

[Erik Florip]

I tried one of Andrew Lunn's rip saws about eight years ago. It was noticeably smoother than my own rip saw; it was also somewhat slower than my own.
Andrew's saw had more rake than mine and was probably filed more carefully than mine usually is.

I have used zero rake for forty years or more both on my rip saw and all my back saws. I don't start the cut on the back stroke and I tend to just start sawing. I think the optimum amount of rake depends on both skill set and preference. I have watched beginners learn to saw with the zero rake, however. Learning this way may actually encourage better technique because you need to emphasize saw speed rather than downward pressure to start the cut smoothly.

I agree. Like anything, you get better with practice. I understand why a beginner may want a saw with more rake, a bit more user friendly.

[Erik Florip]

Agree Warren. Sawing with zero rake - especially starting the first stroke - is about a light touch ... letting the weight of the saw do the work. I am not sure what the current LN dovetail saws are sharpened at, but mine is zero rake. I struggled with it when I first bought it. It took a little time to get used to the bite. Now I would not have it any other way.

Eric, I am impressed with your control with so much negative rake. The saw certainly cuts fast ... perhaps too fast. A balance of speed and control is desirable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I was pushing the saw pretty hard to see what the limitation would be. It will can track a line when care and proper technique are used. I build a fair amount of saws so I do a lot of test cutting throughout a day...good way to learn smooth starts.

[lowell holmes]

You can get saw tooth patterns at the link below.

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/saw-tooth-geometry/index.html