New Table Saw Input/Advice

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

I really hope I'm not being "that guy" and posting a thread that already exists somewhere, but I tried searching the site and didn't find what I was looking for..

Brief background:
I'm still just a small notch or two above novice woodworker. I'm a financial advisor by day, so woodworking and fixing up my "fixer-upper" home is what i do after the closing bell for a little stress relief. I've only been at it for a few years, and I'm still working on growing my "toy collection"... currently moving my shop from a 10' x 12' room to a 18' x 22' room to make room for said toys. So, my reason for this post: It's time for a new table saw. It was one of my first few purchases from back when I didn't know enough about my new hobby to make an informed decision. In fact, it pains me to admit, my first saw was hot off the floor of the local Lowe's on a black friday "deal"... and that little Kobalt (you know the one) has done its best to be functional up till now, but I think its time for it to be "gifted" to a friend of mine who's in about the same stage of woodworking now that I was back then.

So I'm looking to spend $1,000- $1,500 (twist my arm if its not much more than that), and I've looked into several models and read more reviews than I can remember. I'm liking the idea of more of a hybrid saw. I'd like for it to be somewhat "movable" if needed but I'm far more concerned with reliability and a nice fence (which I suppose could be aftermarket). I'd like to avoid doing extra electrical work but that's not a deal breaker- I'll be doing that eventually anyways. Basically, I'm open to suggestions. I've looked at Grizzly/Powermatic/Jet/Delta/etc... I read good things, and then a "troll" goes on a rampage about how their saw is the scourge of their shop and the worst decision they ever made... I'm done with reviews. I wanna know what the SC community has to say and what y'all would buy/ what you've had positive experiences with. Like I said I'm pretty open to suggestion and I'm flexible on the price to an extent.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give me some insight.

[Nick Decker]

I'll start by asking you to narrow it down. Do you want something new or are you inclined toward used, which might require varying degrees of restoration?

[glenn bradley]

Although I had one of the better hybrids (Craftsman/Orion 22124) and it did most everything I asked of it, my 3HP cabinet saw does all those things and more. The confidence and comfort one feels when making a cut with authority versus just "being able to" make the same cut is a quantifiable factor. The ability to power through tough material as opposed to finessing one's way through it feels safer. Kind of like the difference between paring something off with a sharp chisel as opposed to muscling it off with one that is sorta sharp.

You are not in the PM3000 or Saw Stop tier price-wise but, this is where Grizzly can really prove to be the more bang for your buck choice. The G1023 and the G0690 series come in a variety of flavors in your price range and have many, many, many happy owners. The new versions incorporate riving knives and better designed guards. New and old owners can talk to specifics like fence choices and all that. Hopefully they will chime in.

[Marshall Harrison]

I've recently gone through this same exercise. You will find guys that think you are crazy if you don't buy a SawStop and other guys that swear by used Unisaws.

Well I can't afford the SawStop and a lot of the older Unisaw are right tilt which I didn't want. They also didn't come with a riving knife and some didn't even have a splitter. I guess the old woodworkers found it too much trouble to take off or put on a blade guard or splitter so they just ran with a naked blade.

So on March 31st I ordered a Laguna Fusion F2 table saw. I liked the looks of it as well as its safety features. It is a hybrid and it has a riving knife, along with a 36" Beisemeyer clone fence. I caught it at 10% off, $75 shipping to my driveway via a lit gate truck and no sales tax. Due to the sale the Laguna dealer was out of stock so it hasn't shipped yet though they claim it will ship on or before 04/21.

I looked seriously at the Jet hybrids in the same $1300 price range but they don't have a full cabinet (but they are good saws) and I could only get the 30" and I really wanted something a little longer rip capacity.

I have seen and handled the F2 at my local Woodcraft store but all they have at the moment are two SawStops. I'm sure that the F2 will be great for my needs. Youtube has a series of 18 videos on assembly of the previous version of the F2 which is very similar to the newer version I ordered.

Good luck in your search.

[Tom Bender]

A few years ago I converted my saw to variable speed, starting with an 1800 rpm motor. So now it runs half the tip speed, or less. I really like it that way. See if any new saws can be provided that way. (100 miles an hour is noisy, dusty and more dangerous)

[Cary Falk]

I sold my 1970 Unisaw( which I restored )for a G1023RL to get a riving knife and couldn't be happier. I LOVE the riving knife.

[Mike Cutler]

Ryan

You have to take some of the reviews with a grain of salt, so to speak. I think people have to high an expectation sometimes for a machine, like a table saw, in that price range. It's a lot of money, so don't get me wrong there, but there are table saws easily in the $5000.00+ range.
Expect to do a little tinkering, and adjusting, out of the box, and invest in good blades and you should be fine.
I have General International "Hybrid". It's a 2hp motor that is powered on a 120vac circuit, normal duplex receptacle. I have had it for a decade and it's works just fine. I also have a 25 year old Jet contractor saw that I bought new, and it also not bad. Being a contractor saw, the dust collection sucks! and not in a good way. Avoid a contractor style table saw if you can. A hybrid, or "true" cabinet saw is better for dust collection, out of the box.
You mention that you'd like to avoid any electrical work. I don't know exactly what that means? If the space you're moving into doesn't already have 240vac wired to it, you're going to have to install it, or limit yourself to a 2HP, max, motor on a table saw. 3HP and beyond are 240 vac power.

Most folks will tell you that" it's the fence that makes the saw". It's actually pretty true advice. A good fence on a lesser quality saw is better than a crappy fence on a better quality saw. It's the fence and blade that are doing the work. Err on the side of the fence when you make your selection.

[andy bessette]

Watch for a deal on a clean Unisaw or Powermatic 66 with good fence.

[Matt Day]

I’m “that guy” who is going to recommend getting a used saw. There are alternatives to riving knifes like a Shark Guard, so don’t let the riving knife stop you from an older saw. You should be able to find a nice Unisaw for under $700, and use the leftover cash on other machines.

[Scott Buehler]

For that price range, I would go with either grizzly or the Laguna fusion for a new saw. If you are patient enough, I would wait and find a used unisaw

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

If I was forced to pick either new or used I'd say new, but I'm really not opposed to used. I don't mind a little restoration but I would like to avoid anything too time consuming. I often find myself frustrated by how little time I get to actually spend in my shop so any overly time consuming restorations would be a little off-putting. That why I'm kinda leaving this up to the SC community. I trust you guys and value your input. If you think a certain used model would be the best way to go, so be it.

[andy bessette]

Avoid a restoration. Look for a clean, used one.

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

Thanks for the input Glenn. What you get from you cabinet sums up what I am really looking for, and is the reason the Kobalt is on the chopping block. I'm just tired of needing that perfect cut and feeling like I cant trust my saw to do it- so much so that I recently took a few slabs for a glue up to a local mill and shelled out $80 to have them do what I was just plain tired of negotiating with. Sounds like it might be better to go with one of the grizzly's if I cant find a good used 3000 or sawstop

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

Thanks Glenn. Let me know how it goes when the F2 arrives!

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

So I have a little correction to make- there was an old receptacle that had simply been covered up by the previous owner with a co-ax cover... why? I cant be sure. But upon realizing that there was no reason for this room to have two co-ax ports, I decided to take the cover off, and low and behold... 240 problem solved. What are the odds, right?
I'm with ya on a grain of salt on the reviews... its just getting to the point these days where you might need a truckload of salt!

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

Seems to be everyone is in agreement about the Grizzly and Laguna, or a used Unisaw. Maybe I should post a poll? Might be interesting to see the results if the choices are narrowed down a bit.

[Phillip Gregory]

The biggest questions you need to answer are:

1. What do you intend to do with the saw and do you have any other powered saws (bandsaw, radial arm saw, sliding compound miter saw, track saw, etc)?

2. What do you have for electrical service to your shop area? If you do not have 240 volt service and cannot run a line down to your shop, or an extension cord to the dryer outlet, you are limited to 120 volt tools with a 1 1/2 hp motor or smaller. That means older 1 to 1 1/2 hp Unisaws and newer hybrid saws. If you have 30-40 amps of 240, you can run about anything including giant old industrial saws much larger than a typical cabinet saw.

3. How comfortable are you with rehabbing an older piece of equipment?

4. How easy is it to get a saw into your shop area? This was my biggest thought when I got my saw as my shop was in a basement where tools had to be carried down a set of stairs. I couldn't get the 2000 pound giant old industrial saw I really would have liked down the stairs, so I got a typical 10" 3 hp cabinet saw that disassembled into 100-200 pound pieces and was able to get it down the stairs.


I currently have the Shop Fox equivalent of a Grizzly G0691, a 3 hp 10" left tilt Unisaw clone with a Biesemeyer clone fence and a riving knife. You can get the basic model of this for about $1500. It is a decent piece of equipment and a big step up in power and stability from a Lowe's contractor saw or benchtop tablesaw. I mostly use mine to rip finished stock to width and cut broken-down sheet good panels to final size. It excels at those tasks. I use a circular saw and a straightedge to break down sheet goods into approximately the right size, a radial arm saw for dados and crosscutting, a bandsaw to resaw stock over 3" thick, and my shaper does my tenons and rabbets. I have done all of those operations on my cabinet saw and it does not do as good of a job or work as easily as those tools do. If I couldn't have the other tools, I would get a giant old sliding tablesaw such as an Oliver or Wadkin with about a 16" blade. They weigh about a ton, aren't easy to find, and essentially all of them are 3 phase only so you'd need to deal with that (not hard, I have four 3 phase tools, but you do need to address it.)

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

This is why I love SC. Cant get input like this from reliable sources anywhere else. Thanks for the advice Gregory.
As of now, I have a band, track, and a sliding compound, so I'd be using it much in the same way you use yours.
I've apparently got the juice- something I didn't realize when i started the post.
I'm comfortable enough rehabbing if the price was right, but I'm not against spending a few hundred dollars to spare myself the few months of work it would take me considering my shop time is always getting eaten up by other "obligations" and "honey-do's"
The new shop has a big sliding glass door on one end, so I could just about park an entire mill in there if I wanted to- but I wouldn't haha
I'm starting to look at the griz 691 and the 1023

[Todd Bender]

I like old steel and more horsepower, but I've also been making a living with table saws for 25 years. I would advise a hobbyist to put a lot of thought to the added safety of a SawStop or at least a riving knife, something most of the old steel doesn't offer.

[Phillip Gregory]

This is why I love SC. Cant get input like this from reliable sources anywhere else. Thanks for the advice Gregory.
As of now, I have a band, track, and a sliding compound, so I'd be using it much in the same way you use yours.
I've apparently got the juice- something I didn't realize when i started the post.
I'm comfortable enough rehabbing if the price was right, but I'm not against spending a few hundred dollars to spare myself the few months of work it would take me considering my shop time is always getting eaten up by other "obligations" and "honey-do's"
The new shop has a big sliding glass door on one end, so I could just about park an entire mill in there if I wanted to- but I wouldn't haha
I'm starting to look at the griz 691 and the 1023

I would recommend against a saw with long rip fence rails if you have a SCMS and a track saw. My Grizzly G0691 in a different paint job has the long rip fence and I have used the extra capacity over a "short" rip fence saw exactly once to cut a sheet of plywood. I then broke out the circular saw and a straightedge and have been using that ever since. The short fence saws have more than enough capacity and take up much less space. You can also use a standard mobile base with one rather than needing the extra T extension to put the extended table's legs on the base as well.

You probably would be well served with a typical 10" cabinet saw as you have a SCMS and a bandsaw. A 3 hp motor on a 10" saw will do anything you can throw at the saw and you'd do anything that you can't handle on a 10" cabinet saw with your other equipment. Your choices are either buy a used Unisaw for $500-700 or the slightly better Powermatic 66 for about $800-1000 or buy a new Grizzly G0690 or G1023 for about $1500. (A new Jet or Powermatic PM2000 are much more expensive and give you little to nothing extra over a Grizzly, and I suspect they are essentially the same saw with a different paint color.)

A used Unisaw would be my #3 choice as they do not have riving knives, the blades tilt to the right, and they often come with smaller 1 to 1 1/2 hp motors and a switch or mechanical rather than magnetic starter. They are solid saws but a riving knife is a BIG improvement, unless you are willing to fabricate a precisely-milled and perfectly-located splitter behind the blade in your blade insert (which would be a modification you would need to do as the saws did not come with splitters.) I used a 1 hp contractor saw growing up and it was grossly underpowered, it was easy to stall that saw. I can't say if 1 1/2 hp or 2 hp is enough, but I have had a 3 hp saw for years and have never managed to bog it down, 3 hp is plenty for a 10" saw. They generally came with a switch rather than a magnetic starter and the old-style tubular fence is inferior to the Biesemeyer or its clones on newer saws. But, you can find a serviceable Unisaw for $500 or so locally in a few weeks, while PM66s are far less common and cost more, and a new Grizzly will show up at your door in a week but costs 3x as much.

The PM66 is a little heavier than a Unisaw or new Grizzly saw and has a little better fit and finish. They typically have 3 hp motors and magnetic starters, are left tilt, typically have a Biesemeyer fence, but lack a riving knife. This would be my choice of a 10" old cabinet saw but it would be a difficult decision between a good PM66 and a new Grizzly as the cost difference isn't great and the PM66 does not have a riving knife.

I strongly prefer big old heavy equipment and would recommend a Delta 12/14, Powermatic 72, or one of the real big old saws like an Oliver 270, Tannewitz U, a Northfield "variety saw," etc. Prices are close to what you'd pay for a new Grizzly and you get a larger, heavier, more capable saw. You really don't need one of these but they are very solid, are smoother because of the increased heft and solidity of the castings, and have the smoothness associated with using a small fraction of the machine's capacity and never getting close to its limits. You can buy newer, heavier saws, the Grizzly G0696X/G0697X 12" saw is a decent example at $2500, but it's a grand more than a 10" G1023.

You can put a very heavy piece of equipment on a mobile base, I have a 2200 pound Whitney shaper that I made a base for out of 2x6s and a set of 700 lb capacity wheels and I can move it around well enough for my irregularly-shaped and not that big shop.

As far as the G0690 vs. G1023, the G0690 is a left-tilt clone of the Unisaw while the G1023 is a newer design. The G0690 is a little heavier while the G1023 has better dust collection. The G0690 has its dust port on the right side of the cabinet while the G1023 has its on the rear of the saw. That primarily makes a difference if you make a hinged-off-the-back-of-the-saw outfeed table as the G1023 cannot have as long of a table else it hits the dust hose, the G0690 can have a table about 7" longer as all it needs to do is clear the floor. There are many G069* vs. G1023 threads and the general consensus is that both are decent 10" cabinet saws and if a 10" cabinet saw will work for you, you'll like either. I picked the Shop Fox G0691 clone as that was the saw the local dealer had in stock, as you can't buy a Grizzly-branded saw locally unless you live near Springfield, MO or Bellingham, WA and pick it up from their two showrooms. Picking up a saw locally and having it forklifted from a warehouse into your truck is MUCH better than having it shipped. Grizzly sells a limited selection of essentially identical equipment through a nationwide network of dealers under the Shop Fox name. My G0691 clone has been a very decent saw for what I use it for, I have a decent number of hours on it, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to somebody looking for a 10" cabinet saw.

As far as a SawStop is concerned...that's a political topic around here but suffice to say I've been woodworking for decades without using one and "still have all ten," and a SawStop PCS that would be comparable to a Grizzly cabinet saw would be *considerably* out of your budget. It's in the same price league as an inexpensive sliding tablesaw which is arguably safer as your fingers "should" be very far away from the blade on the sliding table backstop and much more versatile as those can cut full sized sheet goods easily while a traditional-style cabinet saw cannot. I'll stop there to not invoke "ThreadStop" as further discussion about SawStop invariably locks threads as it gets into the ethical issues with the lawyer that founded the company and his attempts to get the government to mandate his proprietary technology. I do wholeheartedly endorse riving knives, I grew up using a saw without one and you HAD to use a second person on the outfeed side to guide the pieces and keep them from pinching else you'd get kickback. A riving knife allows me to safely work by myself and all I need is something on the outfeed end to keep the board from falling on the floor. I've ripped thousands of feet of stock on my saw and the riving knife is something I'd really hate to be without.

[scott spencer]

The step from a hybrid to a 3hp industrial style cabinet saw is significant. It's a jump in class of saw, sort of like going from an S10 to a Silverado 3500. The G1023RL is among the best bangs for the buck in a new saw IMO. If you have 220v, there's question in my mind. I also made that jump from a good General International contractor saw to a 22124 hybrid to a Shop Fox W1677 3hp cabinet saw....both the GI and the 22124 were very good saws, but the Shop Fox is so much more saw. No regrets.

[Josh Kocher]

I have a 2HP General International contractor saw. It has a Beismeyer fence with short rails. It holds its accuracy reasonably well, it has a good blade, I like it fine enough. I use it always with the stock splitter and a guard.

Like you mentioned, I use my track saw for breaking down sheets and a lot of other work that many would typically do on a tablesaw, with a largeish shop built MFT type worktable it's just easy.
I also have a scms and bandsaw so the tablesaw isn't the focus of work in my shop.

Since DC is a problem on this type of saw, I closed in the base with plywood and attached a piece of cardboard - which was originally going to be a template to make one out of hardboard but worked well on its own - to the back of the saw with rare earth magnets to close it in. 5" duct ventilates this area well. I also replaced the stock guard with a Felder guard with dust extraction hookup.

Now the DC is quite good. I'm not at all in a hurry to upgrade this saw...

If I did though...

1st choice would be a Euro slider.

2nd choice would be a late model, used General 350, left tilt, with a riving knife. Tough to find though.

3rd choice would be a new Laguna cabinet/hybrid saws.

As for sawstops, I'll throw in my 25¢ too... it isn't going to stop kickback... if you use a splitter/riving knife and work smart, that's your best defence... and the blade guard is the best way to keep your fingers safe if all else fails. Always use the guard.

[Mike Null]

I don't have any experience with the Laguna TS but if it's anywhere near as good as my Laguna bandsaw it'll serve you well. I'm also a fan of Unisaw.

[Rick Moyer]

I have a Grizzly G0691. Very happy with it. If I had a lot more discretionary income I'd probably own a SawStop. Although if discretionary income wasn't an issue I'd really probably own a Euro slider... I went from a Craftsman contractor saw to the G0691 because I wanted bigger motor, better fence, riving knife, etc. The riving knife eliminated older saws at the time.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I sold my 1970 Unisaw( which I restored )for a G1023RL to get a riving knife and couldn't be happier. I LOVE the riving knife.

Riving Knife is the most important safety feature since electricity.

[Ryan Higgins-Winter Haven]

I'm looking very seriously at the 1023 now myself. Ever find yourself wishing you'd added the "w" and had the router table addition? Its currently only a $100 difference between the RL and RLW which makes me feel like it might just be a "why the heck not" purchase

[andy bessette]

Unsubscribed.

[Rod Sheridan]

I would either buy a small Euro slider or a Sawstop.

The Euro slider is far ahead of a cabinet saw, however if you really want a cabinet saw the SS is the only one I would consider as they're a good quality saw with an outstanding safety system.......Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

A few years ago I converted my saw to variable speed, starting with an 1800 rpm motor. So now it runs half the tip speed, or less. I really like it that way. See if any new saws can be provided that way. (100 miles an hour is noisy, dusty and more dangerous)

Hi Tom, reducing your blade speed too much can increase the risk of accident with the saw.

Tip speed lower than 40m/s (approximately 8,000 ft/min) results in an increased risk of kickback.

For a 10" diameter blade that's approximately 3,000 RPM.............Regards, Rod.