5 panel door build (help)

[Mike OBryan]

Hello all. I’m going to be building this 5 panel door. I believe i’ve worked out most of the joinery and techniques to have a success build. I do have a question on rabbeting the stiles and rails for the step down. The problem I’m going to run into is rabbeting the stiles. They need to be stopped rabbets where the rails meet. What technique should I use to have this corner crisp? I’m using a veritas plow plane. I’m thinking a cross grain knife wall and chop the stop with a chisel. maybe go in with a router plane to clean up the bottom and corner of the rabbit. With my plow plane I can only rabbit up to within an couple inches of the stop do to the fence. So at least 2-3 inches of rabbit will have to be hand cut. Also i’m only working with hand tools. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

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[John TenEyck]

You need to rethink the construction. Normally, doors like that have dados plowed in the stiles and rails and the panels are captured in them when you glue up the door. You can use rabbets and then hold the panels with trim strips, but the rabbets would go full length and the rails would be cut with a rabbet on the ends to form a half lapped joint. Alternatively, you would use full length rabbets and Jack miters where the rails meet the stiles.

Dados and captured panels is the simplest and best looking approach.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

There are no stopped machining procedures used to make that door.

The rails and stiles can be grooved in their entirety and the panels set into the grooves.

The top rails should have deep mortice and tenon joints............Rod.

[Mike OBryan]

There are no stopped machining procedures used to make that door.

The rails and stiles can be grooved in their entirety and the panels set into the grooves.

The top rails should have deep mortice and tenon joints............Rod.

So the molding i'm seeing around each panel is nothing more than additional molding tacked into place? My plan was to build as you all suggested but then to do an additional shallow rabbet on each stile and rail rather than have to add additional moldings to the panel. I'm pretty green so if this doesn't make sense I understand

[steven c newman]

Some used a "sash" cutter....makes a molded edge inside and out, and a groove down the center.

Screen door build a few years ago...( did not need any glue)
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Grooves ploughed..
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Through mortises chopped..
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Trimmed for the rails....
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Lock rail being fitted. Joints used two pins in a drawbore sort of joint...
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test fitting a couple raised panels..
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I did put a dab of glue on the pins and wedges. tenons had a pair of saw kerfs, to house the wedges.
And this was just for a screen door...bottom half raised panels, top half was a screen.

[Jerry Miner]

Mike-- it sounds like you're trying to "re-invent the wheel". Traditional door construction would not use stopped rabbets-- or any rabbets for that matter. Stiles and rails are grooved (not rabbeted). Any "sticking"-- or molding profile-- is cut into the stiles and rails and either coped (if using power equipment) or jack-mitered (if using hand tools) (you can see this in Steven's pics above)

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Mike and welcome to the Creek.

Your project would have me off to the architectural salvage dealers looking for a door that could do the job.

Good luck.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

In general, we make rabbets for glass and grooves for wood panels. The glass panes get rabbets and applied mouldings or putty, because they are much more likely to need to be taken apart for breakage. Frames for wood panels have the mouldings cut on the frame itself, not tacked on after the panel is in.

There are no stopped rabbets or stopped grooves; we plough straight through. The gap is filled up with part of the rail next to the tenon, either having different shoulders front and back or having an appendage on the tenon to fill up the groove at the end. If you make a practice joint, you can see if there needs to be more left on the rail to fill a rabbet or groove.

[lowell holmes]

I would leave the rails wide, cut them to length, cope the ends, and then rip the rails to width.
Then I would mold the sides of the rails.

[Pat Barry]

I would leave the rails wide, cut them to length, cope the ends, and then rip the rails to width.
Then I would mold the sides of the rails.
the rails are always machined on the ends to mate perfectly with the stiles. There are numerous router bit sets just for this purpose.

[lowell holmes]

the rails are always machined on the ends to mate perfectly with the stiles. There are numerous router bit sets just for this purpose.

I own router bits that do this.:)

[Warren Mickley]

the rails are always machined on the ends to mate perfectly with the stiles. There are numerous router bit sets just for this purpose.
We were doing frame and panel construction for many centuries before router bits were invented. Rails are not "always machined on the ends"; several historic methods come to mind.

[James Pallas]

If you are working by hand heed Warren's advice. No stopped rabbets needed.
Jim

[Pat Barry]

We were doing frame and panel construction for many centuries before router bits were invented. Rails are not "always machined on the ends"; several historic methods come to mind.
Which ones Warren? Maybe just a simple shakeresque design? The rail is still machined, er planed, to match the stile. No need for router bits. Not sure what you are advocating.

[Pat Barry]

If you are working by hand heed Warren's advice. No stopped rabbets needed.
Jim
Warren's advice is not very clear. Perhaps with an illustration it would make more sense. This is a big door. It needs large mortice and tenons for strength and stability. Therabbets, grooves, profiles are not so important as purely decorative in whatever style is required.

[Mike OBryan]

In general, we make rabbets for glass and grooves for wood panels. The glass panes get rabbets and applied mouldings or putty, because they are much more likely to need to be taken apart for breakage. Frames for wood panels have the mouldings cut on the frame itself, not tacked on after the panel is in.

There are no stopped rabbets or stopped grooves; we plough straight through. The gap is filled up with part of the rail next to the tenon, either having different shoulders front and back or having an appendage on the tenon to fill up the groove at the end. If you make a practice joint, you can see if there needs to be more left on the rail to fill a rabbet or groove.

thank you the reply Warren. You get what I'm doing. Now to figure out the hand cut tenon with a shoulder that will overlap the rabbet

[Mike OBryan]

Warren's advice is not very clear. Perhaps with an illustration it would make more sense. This is a big door. It needs large mortice and tenons for strength and stability. Therabbets, grooves, profiles are not so important as purely decorative in whatever style is required.
You are correct Pat. 36" door actually. Basically 2" thick with all laminated 1" wood. I plan to mortise and tenon all rails into the stile. Not stub tenons that are groove deep. The rabbet is purely cosmetic. I just didn't understand the method of getting a tight shoulder after planing through rabbets.

[James Pallas]

I'll give this a try and Warren can correct if needed. Cut the stiles long so you'll have a horn. Cut the rails to your approx tenon length. Plough the grove. On one side if the stiles and both top and bottom of the rails and the inside of the top and bottom rails. Stick the molding on both sides of the stile grooves and the rail grooves. Lay out your mortises and cut. Cut the stuck moldings off to groove depth on the stiles to match the mortises width and pare a 45 on each side. Cut the tenons on the rails with a shoulder on the tenon to match the bottom of the stile groove. Use a paring block to cut the miters on the rail moldings. Build it up from one stile, don't forget the panels, for a dry fit. If it all works, glue it up flat. Cut the top and bottom to fit. Do your hinge butts bevel the latch side about an 1/8. You should be good to go. This is simplified but all the basics are here I think. I have done it and it's not terrible but lots of skils are used.
Jim

[lowell holmes]

I misspoke, have shaper bitts that I use for this.

[brian zawatsky]

I'll give this a try and Warren can correct if needed. Cut the stiles long so you'll have a horn. Cut the rails to your approx tenon length. Plough the grove. On one side if the stiles and both top and bottom of the rails and the inside of the top and bottom rails. Stick the molding on both sides of the stile grooves and the rail grooves. Lay out your mortises and cut. Cut the stuck moldings off to groove depth on the stiles to match the mortises width and pare a 45 on each side. Cut the tenons on the rails with a shoulder on the tenon to match the bottom of the stile groove. Use a paring block to cut the miters on the rail moldings. Build it up from one stile, don't forget the panels, for a dry fit. If it all works, glue it up flat. Cut the top and bottom to fit. Do your hinge butts bevel the latch side about an 1/8. You should be good to go. This is simplified but all the basics are here I think. I have done it and it's not terrible but lots of skils are used.
Jim

That just about covers it, Jim. The layout is the biggest thing. If you take your time and work your way through it a step at a time its not terribly difficult.

Also, don't you just love it when someone posts a how-to question in the Neander forum, specifically stating that he will be using hand tools only, and he is told to go get a router bit set. SMH.

[Pat Barry]

That just about covers it, Jim. The layout is the biggest thing. If you take your time and work your way through it a step at a time its not terribly difficult.

Also, don't you just love it when someone posts a how-to question in the Neander forum, specifically stating that he will be using hand tools only, and he is told to go get a router bit set. SMH.
what is classic is when someone comments about advice that was never given, For example ^^^

[brian zawatsky]

what is classic is when someone comments about advice that was never given, For example ^^^


the rails are always machined on the ends to mate perfectly with the stiles. There are numerous router bit sets just for this purpose.

ummmm.....

[brian zawatsky]

I misspoke, have shaper bitts that I use for this.


I own router bits that do this.:)

and furthermore.....

[Mike Holbrook]

I just made four raised pannel 55” shutters, two pannels on each shutter. I tried to do the entire job with hand tools, including: a Veritas Plow Plane, a Veritas Skew Rabbet plane, a Veritas Router Plane....I got through making the raised pannels with my standard Veritas Custom planes. I found the profile cutting tools I had, not to be very good for the job I was trying to do with the wood I was attempting to work. I ended up using a router to cut the copes and sticks in the rails & styles. Admittedly the wood I was tryng to cut the profiles in was a waterproof MDF/plastic “wood” which was crumbling instead of being cut by my hand tools. Yes they were sharp. A 2” thick door may be a different story than a 1” shutter? The little Plow Plane may be less up to the 2” thick wood? Were I to choose hand tools for the job again, I would use a Veritas Jack Rabbet and a larger plane for cutting the grooves and “ molding” cuts.

I settled for making the pannels with hand tools, and inserting them in the waterproof rails & styles. At least I learned something about what it takes to make tight fitting joinery, with hand tools. I was hoping we had gotten over the whole power vs hand tool arguments. My posts about hand tools & power tools used on the same job, on the General Forum, do not seem to even raise an eyebrow lately. I suspect it would take many years for me to get good enough with hand tools to nock out panneled shutters, cabinet doors with pannels, doors with pannels.....without taking months to do it. I may just be old & slow but I listened to other posters and used what I thought were the best tools for the job.

[brian zawatsky]

There is no argument. If anyone took the time to read the original post in this thread, the OP stated that he is using only hand tools, and was seeking help/advice/direction to do that.

I personally build with a combination of machines and hand tools the majority of the time. But I would not answer someone who is asking about how to execute joinery using only hand tools by telling them there are router bits available. I’m sure he is aware of the existence of said router bits.

Just sayin’.

[Warren Lake]

Sometimes we dont see all in a title. I read the post about best table saw blade and for whatever reason saw table saw and not blade. It happens sometimes just in a hurry and dont read well enough.

[Mike Holbrook]

Brian,

The only tool the OP mentions using to make these large doors is a Veritas Plow Plane. I did not find my “Small” Plow Plane a good tool for the smaller shutters I was making. Several posters and articles I read convinced me the tool was not designed for the work I was trying to use it for. I did not take the OP’s post to mean that he wanted to do his doors with hand tools but that hand tools were what he had available. I hope other posters were simply suggesting that the OP might be under tooled for the job he was mentioning, regardless of the hand vs power tool issues.

I am sure we would all like to have Warren or George’s skill set with hand tools, I don’t think many of us have that experience level. I started my project with nieve notions about doing the entire job with hand tools. I appreciated people letting me know that I might be under tooled for my job.

[Pat Barry]

ummmm.....
Ummm. Learn how to read. My reference to router bit sets were obviously given as examples. Never said to use the router (although it may be the best tool for the job)

[Pat Barry]

There is no argument. If anyone took the time to read the original post in this thread, the OP stated that he is using only hand tools, and was seeking help/advice/direction to do that.

I personally build with a combination of machines and hand tools the majority of the time. But I would not answer someone who is asking about how to execute joinery using only hand tools by telling them there are router bits available. I’m sure he is aware of the existence of said router bits.

Just sayin’.
Confucius say "he who reads between lines reading different book..."

[brian zawatsky]

Ummm. Learn how to read. My reference to router bit sets were obviously given as examples. Never said to use the router (although it may be the best tool for the job)

I can read and comprehend just fine, thank you. Are you a politician, by chance?

[brian zawatsky]

Brian,

The only tool the OP mentions using to make these large doors is a Veritas Plow Plane. I did not find my “Small” Plow Plane a good tool for the smaller shutters I was making. Several posters and articles I read convinced me the tool was not designed for the work I was trying to use it for. I did not take the OP’s post to mean that he wanted to do his doors with hand tools but that hand tools were what he had available. I hope other posters were simply suggesting that the OP might be under tooled for the job he was mentioning, regardless of the hand vs power tool issues.

I am sure we would all like to have Warren or George’s skill set with hand tools, I don’t think many of us have that experience level. I started my project with nieve notions about doing the entire job with hand tools. I appreciated people letting me know that I might be under tooled for my job.

A fair point.

[James Pallas]

Hello all. I’m going to be building this 5 panel door. I believe i’ve worked out most of the joinery and techniques to have a success build. I do have a question on rabbeting the stiles and rails for the step down. The problem I’m going to run into is rabbeting the stiles. They need to be stopped rabbets where the rails meet. What technique should I use to have this corner crisp? I’m using a veritas plow plane. I’m thinking a cross grain knife wall and chop the stop with a chisel. maybe go in with a router plane to clean up the bottom and corner of the rabbit. With my plow plane I can only rabbit up to within an couple inches of the stop do to the fence. So at least 2-3 inches of rabbit will have to be hand cut. Also i’m only working with hand tools. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

383544

Mike, I hope that you got an answer to your questions in this thread. When taken in each task there is not anything really difficult in the skills required. I would think that the shape of the moldings would be the biggest perceived problem. You would need some kind of plane to cut that if you require a particular shape. In the end it is just a straight thru cut. It could be just straight or a bevel that could be done with a straight plane. Let us know how it works out for you.
Jim

[steven c newman]

That screen door I build was only 3/4" thick, yet was done with just hand tools....other than drilling for the pegs.

A Stanley #55 does have the profiles to do the moldings. Can be run along both edges of the stiles and rails, then follow up with a plough blade for the groove for the panel.

When I made that screen door, it was from before my Stanley #45 had arrived in the shop.

IF you go and look at the edges of Vintage wooden doors, you will see the through mortises, and the wedges. Sand the stile's faces a bit, and see the pins. You will, however, rarely find any traces of glue in those joints, as it wasn't used. Pins are draw-bored, and the tenons were wedged. Lock rails were a bit wider than the rest, and had double tenons. IF the bottom rail was also wide, it also had a double tenon. Any cope & stick was done with a few cuts with a gouge that matched the moldings.

FWW had an article, back in the 1980s, on how to build one of these, and other styles of doors. Maybe a little "Search-fu" will uncover such a "Lost Treasure"?

Otherwise, this may devolve into a sharping thread on router bits....

[steven c newman]

He also says...if you think a thing can not be done, do not interrupt the person doing it......

[James Pallas]

I just made four raised pannel 55” shutters, two pannels on each shutter. I tried to do the entire job with hand tools, including: a Veritas Plow Plane, a Veritas Skew Rabbet plane, a Veritas Router Plane....I got through making the raised pannels with my standard Veritas Custom planes. I found the profile cutting tools I had, not to be very good for the job I was trying to do with the wood I was attempting to work. I ended up using a router to cut the copes and sticks in the rails & styles. Admittedly the wood I was tryng to cut the profiles in was a waterproof MDF/plastic “wood” which was crumbling instead of being cut by my hand tools. Yes they were sharp. A 2” thick door may be a different story than a 1” shutter? The little Plow Plane may be less up to the 2” thick wood? Were I to choose hand tools for the job again, I would use a Veritas Jack Rabbet and a larger plane for cutting the grooves and “ molding” cuts.

I settled for making the pannels with hand tools, and inserting them in the waterproof rails & styles. At least I learned something about what it takes to make tight fitting joinery, with hand tools. I was hoping we had gotten over the whole power vs hand tool arguments. My posts about hand tools & power tools used on the same job, on the General Forum, do not seem to even raise an eyebrow lately. I suspect it would take many years for me to get good enough with hand tools to nock out panneled shutters, cabinet doors with pannels, doors with pannels.....without taking months to do it. I may just be old & slow but I listened to other posters and used what I thought were the best tools for the job.

you would have been much more successful using white oak instead of MDF. IMO you could have substituted aluminum for the MDF and had the same difficulties. 🙂
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

James, if you would like to follow my long process of making the shutters, there are several threads....The rails & stiles on the shutters I am replacing were made of “real wood”. The profiles in the “real wood” were what rotted away. The “MDF” in the pannels did not rot. As I have explained in previous threads the material I used to make the rails and styles is a product builders use for outside trim work, as it is totally waterproof. It is not common MDF, closer to a wood plastic blend, often used for outside decks. A poster in one of my previous threads provided the name of a similar product he has used. I found the name of what I used if you care to look it up in one of my previous threads. I can’t remember the name now.

I am well aware that it would have been easier to make the shutters with hard wood and appropriate tools. My tools are currently divided between the home I am moving to and the “old” house. I have had to work with materials and tools that were at hand, between moving and working.

I was attempting to match the remaining shutters on the old house. The issue with the old shutters was the rails & stiles rotted. I chose the “wood” for the rails and stiles to match the thickness, 1” thick, and appearance of the existing shutters, with emphasis on the new ones not rotting, as they are in more exposed to weather locations.

I would not build shutters, or anything with raised pannels, the same way again.

[Marshall Harrison]

Welcome to the Creek Mike.

This has been a good thread as my wife wants me to build some exterior shutters for our house. She wants a raised panel or at least a panel style to match the front door. I'm thinking about using red cedar and staining it to match the mahogany front door which has a raised panel at the bottom then stained glass above that. Ive gotten some good joinery advice from this thread. After all a shutter is just as small door isn't it?

[brian zawatsky]

Something else I noticed but neglected to mention because I was too busy being argumentative: Mike mentions using 1” thick wood and face laminating to make the required thickness for the door. I would not do this for a couple reasons. First, it is a big PITA to face laminate that much stock. Second, there would be a glue line right down the center of the stock where the groove needs to be plowed. This would be tough on your plow plane’s cutter, and could also result in excessive tear out if you’re not careful to read the grain direction when laminating your stock. I also question how stable that method of construction would be for a door (although I confess I do not know for a fact that a face lamination would be less stable than solid stock).
FWIW, I’d start with 8/4 stock and finish at 1 and 3/4” thick, which is a standard door thickness.

One the other hand, if you go with the laminated 1” stock, you could cheat on your panel groove by cutting a shallow rabbet on each piece before glue up. The width of the rabbet would represent the depth of the finished groove after lamination. You would need to be very careful with the glue-up process though.

[Mike OBryan]

Mike, I hope that you got an answer to your questions in this thread. When taken in each task there is not anything really difficult in the skills required. I would think that the shape of the moldings would be the biggest perceived problem. You would need some kind of plane to cut that if you require a particular shape. In the end it is just a straight thru cut. It could be just straight or a bevel that could be done with a straight plane. Let us know how it works out for you.
Jim

Thanks for the helpful info guys. I've got some great ideas on how to move forward. Outdoor shutters is also on the project list this summer. Should be fun! I will bring this thread to the top when I get cracking on this.

[James Pallas]

James, if you would like to follow my long process of making the shutters, there are several threads....The rails & stiles on the shutters I am replacing were made of “real wood”. The profiles in the “real wood” were what rotted away. The “MDF” in the pannels did not rot. As I have explained in previous threads the material I used to make the rails and styles is a product builders use for outside trim work, as it is totally waterproof. It is not common MDF, closer to a wood plastic blend, often used for outside decks. A poster in one of my previous threads provided the name of a similar product he has used. I found the name of what I used if you care to look it up in one of my previous threads. I can’t remember the name now.

I am well aware that it would have been easier to make the shutters with hard wood and appropriate tools. My tools are currently divided between the home I am moving to and the “old” house. I have had to work with materials and tools that were at hand, between moving and working.

I was attempting to match the remaining shutters on the old house. The issue with the old shutters was the rails & stiles rotted. I chose the “wood” for the rails and stiles to match the thickness, 1” thick, and appearance of the existing shutters, with emphasis on the new ones not rotting, as they are in more exposed to weather locations.

I would not build shutters, or anything with raised pannels, the same way again.

Mike, I wasn't trying to be critical of your work or your choice of materials. I was critical of the tool choice for the proscribed work. Sometimes we all have to make do with the tools we have. When manufactured wood products came to the market it took some time for tooling to catch up to the product. I can well remember cutting particle board with steel saw blades. I had a huge stack of steel blades and they spent equal time at the sharpening shop and on the saw. The same with HSS router bits. Appropriate tools for the work is all I was saying.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

First off, I lost track of which Mike we were talking about a few times ;-)

There are sooo many types of “MDF” available now. I have been trying to locate a product that is available in fireproof & waterproof versions that is suppose to work like real wood. Somewhere I found a tread about someone making Festool table tops with it. I made a chicken coup with hardyboard back a few years. You need a diamond saw for that material and it can still wreck a saw.

When I started my project I had a supply of 1” thick x3 1/2” SYP lumber I found at Lowe’s at some point. It must have been a special order as I have not seen it again. I started making my shutters out of that material. Apparently I miscalculated how much I needed as I realized after making the pannels that I did not have quite enough for the stiles and rails.