Flattening the sole of a cast steel hand plane?

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

On YT there are a lot of videos that show how to flatten the sole on hand planes. It seems fairly easy, but I wonder if there are anything that can go wrong if the tecnique is not right?
Can one accidently be "rounding" the sole instead because of more gringding at the ends than in the middle of the sole ?

Is a granite plate from a window usually flat enough for the job ?

What grit size should I end up with ?

Thanks..

[Robert Hazelwood]

You can end up with a convex sole fairly easy, and even with care it will likely still end up a hair convex (few thousandths). This is not the end of the world, and is much better than other sole conditions save for dead flat. It can even be beneficial compared to a dead flat sole, in that it counters the normal tendency to plane the ends of a board more than the center. But only if it's a small convexity- if it's large than the plane will be difficult to keep in the cut and very sensitive to which hand is applying pressure.

#3 through #5 planes lap fairly easily. I have a granite surface plate from woodcraft, 4x18", very affordable and very flat. This is perfect for the smaller planes. For larger planes you really would want a lap that is 3 or 4 feet long- a thick piece of glass on a flat backing surface is probably the way to go there. I am not sure what you mean by granite plate from a window, but it may be flat enough for the job. I'd want to check with a good straightedge before using. The straightedge is also a good idea for checking your progress as you lap.

When lapping I like to hold the plane as though I am actually planing wood, with the same grip, and push forward only, with firm but not excessive pressure. No rapid back and forth strokes - I think that would be a good way to get more convexity than is desirable. Start with 80 grit PSA paper and keep it fresh and clean. Every stroke or two I use a magnet wrapped in cloth to clear the swarf- this helps keep things flat. And the sandpaper will need to be changed every few minutes- a fresh sheet of 80 grit seems to remove more metal in the first two minutes of use than in the next 10 combined. So it's worth it to change the paper often, annoying as that is.

I would take it up to 220 grit at least, with a progression like 80-120-150-220. You will still be doing a little flattening work with the 120 and 150, and 220 is fine enough, especially as it gets worn, to give a smooth surface that will slide well.

[Mark Gibney]

At a Lie Nielsen event one time a man demonstrated flattening a plane sole by using 80 grit for a minute, then going up thru three more grits and back to 80.

He said this cycling worked faster than trying to get the sole flat initially on just the 80 grit.
I haven't had to flatten a metal plane sole since then so I can't comment on this from experience.

He also had rolls of maybe 3" wide adhesive-backed sandpaper from which he took a length and stuck it on a flat surface. Looked better to me than the single sheets in a row I have used.

[John C Cox]

On YT there are a lot of videos that show how to flatten the sole on hand planes. It seems fairly easy, but I wonder if there are anything that can go wrong if the tecnique is not right?
Can one accidently be "rounding" the sole instead because of more gringding at the ends than in the middle of the sole ?

Is a granite plate from a window usually flat enough for the job ?

What grit size should I end up with ?

Thanks..

Lasse,

there are lots of tings which can go wrong and cause your plane to end up less flat than it started... Your results are dependent on technique and equipment.

I have not found plate glass adequate for lapping larger or heavy things. It may be fine for small stuff but I feel it's just too flexible for anything outside of very small planes..

The biggest thing for me is frequently checking your progress against a real ground straight edge or a surface plate to see if you are making things better or worse.

[Pat Barry]

You will probably wear yourself out before you really mess it up. Note that getting it basically flat enough means getting the mouth area flat, as well as an area near the toe and heel. The spaces in between are not nearly as important.

[michael langman]

I had problems attaining a straight flat surface on glass with sand paper .
I ended up using a flat 12" mill file to get my soles flat and square.
Check frequently with a good straight edge.

[Jim Koepke]

Every stroke or two I use a magnet wrapped in cloth to clear the swarf- this helps keep things flat.

This is important, if the swarf builds up, the cutting action will not be where it is needed. My magnet is wrapped in paper, about the same. There is also a steel screw on the side of my granite bench to hold the magnet and paper so it is always handy.

My advice on plane soles is to only lap them if it is really needed, as many times it isn't needed.

If a plane can take a shaving without problems, the sole likely doesn't need to be lapped.

With a longer plane when edge jointing a convex sole will start a cut and then as pressure is applied to the back of the plane it will come out of the cut. A concave sole will not cut until the blade is well extended or pressure is applied, then it will dig in and won't be able to take a thin shaving. Those need to have some work done on them.

The casting does have a little flex in use. This can be a source of problems when lapping.

If the sole is concave and pressure is applied to the center of the sole, it can actually worsen the concavity.

If the sole is convex and held at the ends going back and forth this problem can also be exacerbated.

Not removing the swarf every few strokes can leave the sole with a shape more like a hollow or round plane. Here is an old post of mine working on a #4 that had such a problem:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?132457-Advanced-Fettling-404&p=1339970#post1339970

With a flat sole that plane took this shaving:

383464

If you have a need for better, then it might be best to seek out a good machine shop to do the work for you.

jtk

[Warren Lake]

been puttering with this lately. Started using stick on 3M auto body paper that is 2 3/4" wide. I have that from 150 to 500 grit. Sometimes put WD on even though its dry paper. Works well but I dont have coarse enough. I stick it on a shaper table. Other day tried a used stroke sander belt. Better as it was 100 grit, better as its burgandy and a much stronger sandpaper, its six inches wide and as long as you want (full belt 309") being long you can just clamp it at each side of the table and pull it tight.

Put lines accross with a sharpie, ive yet to find one that was flat, still all of them worked fine more or less as they were. Im wondering more about final finish and if finer and finer continues to make them glide better, that is maybe past 500 and more makes a slipperier base.

Been planing some wood to get to know it again mostly a machine guy, not warming up to the wood planes people have given me. They sound nice but find the center of gravity high and this tapping to adjust I dont know, already enough on going challanges in life. Metal plane you can advance a blade incredibly tiny amount make a shaving whatever you want, side to side adjustment not quite as fine but still way easier for me than the wood ones.

Paul Sellers has a you tube or two on plane bases and he seems to angle off all outside edges about 3/8" in or so. Not sure I want to do that but have bevelled off all outside edges

[Don Jarvie]

If you lap do not remove the blade, frog, etc. Just retract the blade.

[lowell holmes]

If it is a valued plane, I would take it to a machine shop. I've had one flattened. It did not cost that much.

[steven c newman]

"Warped Sole" is a rare thing....99% of what I see doing rehabs is from wear. It has been so well used over the decades, the sole has been worn to the "warped" some seem to think. Toe, in front of the mouth and in back of it...and the heel, all need to be coplannar As long as rest of the sole isn't sitting "proud" of these three areas....sole is fine to use. IF you are spending all day long flattening a sole...walk away, just walk away. Rethink what was going on. Chances are, you have made an "ok" sole much worse than when you started. called OCD-Sole Flatness Syndrome.....Machineshops need the business, anyway...

Ok, try this very simple test, to check the sole of a plane:
Have the plane all set up for work, and retract the iron ( don't want it sticking out)
Place said plane on a flat surface..like your workbench

Place a fingertip on each end of the plane.
Fingertip in the center on both ends....does the plane rock? No?
Fingertips at a diagonal from each other...does the plane rock? No? switch corners, try again...still no rocking?
Use the plane, sole is fine.

There now, that wasn't so hard, was it?
IF things do rock:
Black Sharpie pen, make a bunch of lines across the sole. Sand until the lines are gone. Plane is still set up with the iron retracted. Do NOT push the plane like you are planning wood. Index finger and thumb hold around the front knob and the rear tote...only use enough pressure to move the plane, do NOT bear down. 10 or so swipes, check the lines. Might be surprised at how well you are doing. Clean the belt as needed, continue until the lines are gone. Done.

Unless it IS a shooting plane, sides do NOT need to be exactly square to the sole. You are planning with the sole, not the sides.
The reason for the lighter grip, instead of "Full Power Planning"? You will cause a twist in the plane. And you have just sanded that twist into the sole. A lighter touch is easier to control, less stress on you, and, you can feel a lot better on how the sole is doing ( remember the Fingertip trick?)

Try this sometime.....you might like it..

[Warren Lake]

had at least one previously owned plane used so much it was bellied all down the center. Guide coat one sandpaper showed that, it sat flat and it wasnt.

[Andrew Seemann]

OK, I'm kind of intrigued and baffled by all this sole flattening.

I'm intrigued, because the level of accuracy people are striving for seems to be far greater than anything needed in normal woodworking. I could see maybe having one or two smoothers capable of shaving a couple thou in thickness as a final pass, but a jack plane or jointer? no way, those planes are for taking off material quick. You don't need to have a sole flat to 0.003 to do that. The whole measuring your shaving with a micrometer thing seems like it started around the time of the internet. . . . .

I'm baffled, because when I read threads and see videos and articles on sole flattening, people are typically using things to both measure and flatten (plain steel or aluminum rules, granite tile from Home Depot, glass on a workbench, table saw wings) that are not nearly as accurate as the accuracy that they are striving for. Not to mention not close to being rigid enough to maintain that flatness with someone pushing a plane across them. To accurately measure a plane sole to a couple thousands, you need an actual surface plate or machinists straight edge, and machinists tools. When you look at lists of woodworkers tools of yore, you don't see surface plates, feeler gauges, 1-2-3 blocks, micrometers, or lapping compound. Why is it that they are suddenly needed now?

So I am truly curious, how flat do folks think their planes need to be (and why)?


And now I am ducking before people start hurling their LA jack planes, high frog smoothers, bronze bodied planes, and thick irons at me:)

[Warren Lake]

I dont know about tolerances just that each one ive checked is different and the one 6 I made flat tons of years ago was nicer to use. This is the five I last checked.


383505

[steven c newman]

Looks like that has seen a few miles of edge grain...someone used it as a jointer, for a LONG time...

[John C Cox]

Please do the wobble test that Stephen mentions and check it with a flat 0.002" feeler gage on a surface plate (or a clean fresh sheet of notebook paper) before you ever lap it.... I just checked a brand new Stanley block plane on my surface plate - it's better than 0.002" everywhere I could check... There is no need to lap it - and you are likely to cause more problems than you will solve.... (The iron is a different story - but that's not what this thread is about. ;) )

It is useful to lightly "stone" the bottom of a plane with a good flat fine sharpening stone in a figure 8 pattern to knock down burrs that arise before they track up your work...

Be careful about sanding before checking. I have run into quite a few issues with PSA backed sandpaper where it rides up proud a bit on the edges... And can leave you a bit convex... You are better off using wider sheets glued down - and stay away from the edges... Check your progress often against a ground straight edge or surface plate with feeler gages.... Just because an area is not ground by sandpaper doesn't mean it's not flat.. And just because an area is ground by sandpaper doesn't mean it is....

[Jim Koepke]

OK, I'm kind of intrigued and baffled by all this sole flattening.

I'm intrigued, because the level of accuracy people are striving for seems to be far greater than anything needed in normal woodworking. I could see maybe having one or two smoothers capable of shaving a couple thou in thickness as a final pass, but a jack plane or jointer? no way, those planes are for taking off material quick. You don't need to have a sole flat to 0.003 to do that. The whole measuring your shaving with a micrometer thing seems like it started around the time of the internet. . . . .

I'm baffled, because when I read threads and see videos and articles on sole flattening, people are typically using things to both measure and flatten (plain steel or aluminum rules, granite tile from Home Depot, glass on a workbench, table saw wings) that are not nearly as accurate as the accuracy that they are striving for. Not to mention not close to being rigid enough to maintain that flatness with someone pushing a plane across them. To accurately measure a plane sole to a couple thousands, you need an actual surface plate or machinists straight edge, and machinists tools. When you look at lists of woodworkers tools of yore, you don't see surface plates, feeler gauges, 1-2-3 blocks, micrometers, or lapping compound. Why is it that they are suddenly needed now?

So I am truly curious, how flat do folks think their planes need to be (and why)?


And now I am ducking before people start hurling their LA jack planes, high frog smoothers, bronze bodied planes, and thick irons at me:)

You are correct Andrew. In most normal woodworking taking a shaving less than a thousandth of an inch has little or no advantage. In many cases taking a light shaving can help mitigate tear out.

It is always nice to have one good smoother in the kit. For anything else, it really only needs to work without problems. That is why my suggestion is to always use the plane first before lapping the sole. Don't do the work just because someone, like me, did it on Youtube.

If one is careful and pays attention to what they are doing, one can get to a very flat sole without special equipment. It wouldn't surprise me to learn woodworkers of yore had their ways of ensuring their tools worked as well as their hands. If they could smooth the top of a piece of cabinetry, they surely could smooth the bottom of a plane.

jtk

[Andrew Seemann]

Sometimes I wonder if the improvement from "sole flattening" is actually just from polishing the sole, taking off the rust from an old plane or gunk & oxidation that may have accumulated on a regularly used plane. That would definitely improve performance.

Don't get me wrong, when I tune up a new-to-me plane, I check to see how flat it is by setting it on a reference surface flat enough for woodworking, usually my cast iron table saw and make sure it doesn't rock or have a bow. If it passes that test, I then rub it on my stationary belt sander (not running) to see if it has a relatively even scratch pattern and if it does, that's it for flatness. If it doesn't, I'll flatten it until it is good enough (which has been rarely needed for most planes). I clean off the rust on the sole, wax it up, and I'm done with the bottom.

If I did run into a plane not flat enough for normal use with minor work, chances are I would put it on the shelf for parts, or just use it as a beater.

[Warren Lake]

wanting to look at this a bit more did another test with three number five planes. First on 3M 220 grit. Im on a shaper table and its flat. I did a number of swipes on the planes then checked the outside edge of the paper and its flat. no issues with the paper edges being up. I think this is more accurate than some sort of adhesive spray application could be inconsistent. The paper itself measures accurate bang on where ever I measured it.

Put my lines on again and put 150 grit on and did one forward pass one on each then turned them end for end and continued on so as the paper wore this would be the most even way to do it rather than one plane at a time. The three planes are number one two and three from the bottom up.

1 is the one with heavy wear long life, 2 had very little use on it, 3 is another one that was used a lot but not as much as 1. They were all different and 2 which was hardly used is clearly not flat as it came which shows at least with that brand you cannot count on the bottom being flat. Its a record the other two are Stanley bailey ones.

I dont know what flatness is needed and they all work well enough. Lots of stuff in a shop is different levels of accurate and it all still works well enough. Originally when I did this I had two sheets side by side so could do an x pattern like body work, that worked well as you could use scratches as a guide coat as well.

383602

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I have a friend who has a milling machine. Would that work ?

[Peter Christensen]

I have a friend who has a milling machine. Would that work ?

If the machine is big enough to hold the plane and your friend knows what he is doing, it will do nicely. You may still need to sand the sole a little to smooth it. A surface grinder is the best choice with the mill a close second.

[Mark Rainey]

Bought a used Stanley jack plane 18 years ago for $30. Just getting started I used it for everything. Decided to flatten the sole & brought it to a machinist. His estimate $20. He called me when it was done & said he put a lot more work into it than he thought it would take & said he had to charge me $50 and still he lost time on the job. And that was 18 years ago.

[Warren Lake]

Plane 2 the middle one is out .0015 on the heel on all those magic marker lines that is how much its out of true. Thats the one that is hardly used so how it came. the bottom and top one seem to be pretty consistent down the middle likely lapped from years of just being used. will have to continue down to see. I wasnt on this to flatten them but to explore some of the info here and get a reading off them.

[John C Cox]

Bought a used Stanley jack plane 18 years ago for $30. Just getting started I used it for everything. Decided to flatten the sole & brought it to a machinist. His estimate $20. He called me when it was done & said he put a lot more work into it than he thought it would take & said he had to charge me $50 and still he lost time on the job. And that was 18 years ago.

That's likely because it took a lot of time for him to figure out how to make jigs/fixtures to hold it flat on his surface grinder... Not because the grinding presented any difficulties... The inside of a plane sole is not really a friendly shape for a surface grinder bed... The manufacturers have specially designed nests that precisely fixture the sole for grinding... These cost many thousands of dollars to make - but it's price is paid back over tens of thousands of units...

[Mark Rainey]

Good information John

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

OK, I'm kind of intrigued and baffled by all this sole flattening.

I'm intrigued, because the level of accuracy people are striving for seems to be far greater than anything needed in normal woodworking. I could see maybe having one or two smoothers capable of shaving a couple thou in thickness as a final pass, but a jack plane or jointer? no way, those planes are for taking off material quick. You don't need to have a sole flat to 0.003 to do that. The whole measuring your shaving with a micrometer thing seems like it started around the time of the internet. . . . .

I'm baffled, because when I read threads and see videos and articles on sole flattening, people are typically using things to both measure and flatten (plain steel or aluminum rules, granite tile from Home Depot, glass on a workbench, table saw wings) that are not nearly as accurate as the accuracy that they are striving for. Not to mention not close to being rigid enough to maintain that flatness with someone pushing a plane across them. To accurately measure a plane sole to a couple thousands, you need an actual surface plate or machinists straight edge, and machinists tools. When you look at lists of woodworkers tools of yore, you don't see surface plates, feeler gauges, 1-2-3 blocks, micrometers, or lapping compound. Why is it that they are suddenly needed now?

So I am truly curious, how flat do folks think their planes need to be (and why)?


And now I am ducking before people start hurling their LA jack planes, high frog smoothers, bronze bodied planes, and thick irons at me:)

Just compiled a long reply and it disappeared so I'll try again.

I am with Andrew on this for a real need of flattening the sole. The plane itself will twist and change shape when we put pressure on it, not to mention that wood itself is rather flexible and will compress locally when we go over it. Just a long strip of wood will flex in all directions and on a microlevel at the length of a plane it will also change shape.

If I was to flatten a sole I would get a flat steel plate (or a cast iron one) and use the grinding paste that is used in the automotive industry for seating valves. Failing that I would clamp the plane upside down and use a coarse waterstone. I would not use sandpaper as the backing is soft and it will compress and do other things that you do not want. (I ground telescope mirrors over 40 years ago - that is a whole science on its own). The waterstone is a good solution when you have hit a nail and there are some nicks that are protruding.

I suspect that the interest in flattening of soles, bevel up planes , thicker irons, other steels etc all can find their origin in that the knowledge of the old timers no longer is being passed along and that the younger generation is experiencing problems with tearing out, chatter etc. The manufacturers will quickly tell them that they are in need of something better than their "old" bevel down planes and sell them thicker blades, different steel and if that does not work well then you need a bevel up plane and untold different blades all with a bevel ground to a different angle. And your sharpening has not been good enough, you'll need all these diamond and waterstones to the 30000 grit and a translucent Arkansas stone is mandatory too, your workbench is not solid enough, get maple workbench that weighs 2 tonnes and the list goes on.

It was only recently that I found out how to set the chip breaker correctly and I wish I had known this over 40 years ago when I had problems with tear out in mahogany while building boats. No old timer around at that time to teach me properly. For smoothing the chipbreaker needs to be set very closely to the end of the plane iron - any closer and the chip breaker would be acting as the plane iron. Head over to 'wood central' and check out the article on 'setting a cap iron'.

I tried this on some maple that 6 years ago I had problems with. I bought a bevel up jack plane for solving this problem and it did not, grr..... Tightened the mouth, added some blades, ground those blades to the recommendations (15000 grit) and it was still happpening. After reading the recommendation I pulled out my #3, set the chipbreaker as close as I could and.... problem solved! Not to mentioned that the iron on the #3 had been sharpened to #2000, not even a mirror finish. Who knew.

[Jim Koepke]

[edited for brevity]
I am with Andrew on this for a real need of flattening the sole. The plane itself will twist and change shape when we put pressure on it, not to mention that wood itself is rather flexible and will compress locally when we go over it. Just a long strip of wood will flex in all directions and on a microlevel at the length of a plane it will also change shape.

If I was to flatten a sole I would get a flat steel plate (or a cast iron one) and use the grinding paste that is used in the automotive industry for seating valves. Failing that I would clamp the plane upside down and use a coarse waterstone. I would not use sandpaper as the backing is soft and it will compress and do other things that you do not want. (I ground telescope mirrors over 40 years ago - that is a whole science on its own). The waterstone is a good solution when you have hit a nail and there are some nicks that are protruding.


Marinus, you and Andrew are in agreement with a point of mine also presented earlier in this thread. There is no reason to abrade the sole of a plane without evidence of a problem.

My set up does not have any way for me to truly test the flatness of a plane sole other than by eye and result. My tendency is to ignore the eye if the result is sufficient for a particular plane's function.

A jointer doesn't need to make a 0.001" shaving. A jointer does need to be able to take a shaving consistently without pulling in to or out of a cut.

One goal of tuning up any plane is to give a user's hands control of their work instead of its shortcomings controlling how one performs their craft.

jtk

[Allen Read]

....My advice on plane soles is to only lap them if it is really needed, as many times it isn't needed.

If a plane can take a shaving without problems, the sole likely doesn't need to be lapped.



This is the most important consideration.

Second is the thickness of the granite. If it's 2 cm or less, it may be too flexible for flattening. I'm in the stone trade and it's hard for most to understand that thin granite is a bit flexible. Not much, of course, but enough to cause problems with plane sole flattening. You can support it or use a thicker piece of granite. I've found that 3 cm is usually stiff enough, but even this has to be supported.

When flattening, change your grip on the plane every so often. We all have tendencies to apply pressure unevenly so that you can easily sand too much in some spots and not enough in others.

Good luck,
Allen

[Tom Trees]

If lapping a plane, stay away from the edges so the marker ink remains.
If you don't, and lap on a dead flat plate with taut sandpaper, it will create a convex surface.
This will happen no matter how meticulous you are with cleaning the abrasive and repositioning of the plane.
You only use a full width and length abrasive on the final few strokes eliminating your inked edges.
I use a strip of self stick sandpaper and lay my cut strips on top.
I get a pair of abrasive strips from a regular roll of sandpaper, and cut it less than the planes length I'm working on.
It will stay put because 100% of the abrasive is in contact with the plane

Don't trust anyone who doesn't get the feelers out and demonstrate that the sole is flat!
No-one on youtube has demonstrated how to lap a plane to get an acceptable result of a flat surface.

Just remember what I said about creating convex surface, so you realise it before its way out, if you don't believe me.

Tom

[Stewie Simpson]

OK, I'm kind of intrigued and baffled by all this sole flattening.

I'm intrigued, because the level of accuracy people are striving for seems to be far greater than anything needed in normal woodworking. I could see maybe having one or two smoothers capable of shaving a couple thou in thickness as a final pass, but a jack plane or jointer? no way, those planes are for taking off material quick. You don't need to have a sole flat to 0.003 to do that. The whole measuring your shaving with a micrometer thing seems like it started around the time of the internet. . . . .

I'm baffled, because when I read threads and see videos and articles on sole flattening, people are typically using things to both measure and flatten (plain steel or aluminum rules, granite tile from Home Depot, glass on a workbench, table saw wings) that are not nearly as accurate as the accuracy that they are striving for. Not to mention not close to being rigid enough to maintain that flatness with someone pushing a plane across them. To accurately measure a plane sole to a couple thousands, you need an actual surface plate or machinists straight edge, and machinists tools. When you look at lists of woodworkers tools of yore, you don't see surface plates, feeler gauges, 1-2-3 blocks, micrometers, or lapping compound. Why is it that they are suddenly needed now?

So I am truly curious, how flat do folks think their planes need to be (and why)?


And now I am ducking before people start hurling their LA jack planes, high frog smoothers, bronze bodied planes, and thick irons at me:)

Andrew; you may find the following article of interest; https://www.kinexmeasuring.com/downloads/napsali/2016-04-woodworkers.pdf

regards Stewie;

[Tom Trees]

Andrew; you may find the following article of interest; https://www.kinexmeasuring.com/downloads/napsali/2016-04-woodworkers.pdf

regards Stewie;

I must have a read of that later.
I have been able to get thinner consistent shavings with the close set cap iron, so would argue that a plane what's truly flat will have a more noticable effect in use compared to using other techniques like back bevels, or higher pitch.
I don't think its worth its salt on the scribble test, if this is not the case.
Don't know if hes still using BU planes, or if he's wrote the article since then, but I see shavings indicative of this being the case.

Tom

[steven c newman]

Or...just watch Paul Sellers....He just MIGHT know a thing or two.....

[Tom Trees]

Or...just watch Paul Sellers....He just MIGHT know a thing or two.....

About the worst person on youtube in regards to planing IMO
Planes timber unsupported and states its spot on, no surprise he won;t show you, advises folks to throw out the accuracy of their planes by lapping the edges.
Dismisses use of the close set cap iron, hacks up his bench and more. :eek:

Beware of these things if you strive to do fine work.
Not keen on shooting folks down, but that plane restoration video is truly awful advice, and will fool newcomers to the craft that are intending to restore their newly acquired tools.


Tom

[Charles Guest]

On YT there are a lot of videos that show how to flatten the sole on hand planes. It seems fairly easy, but I wonder if there are anything that can go wrong if the tecnique is not right?
Can one accidently be "rounding" the sole instead because of more gringding at the ends than in the middle of the sole ?

Is a granite plate from a window usually flat enough for the job ?

What grit size should I end up with ?

Thanks..

It is essential to evaluate the sole for twist. Merely rubbing the sole on a flat surface stands as much chance of making twist worse as it does fixing it. Most planes that cut poorly for no other discernible reason do so because the sole it twisted, and it doesn't take much to wreck a plane's performance. If you identify twist, you should spot stand the high corners with emery paper wrapped around a cork block constantly checking progress. Once you've removed twist, then you can attack convexity and concavity in length and width being careful not to reintroduce twist. It's just like planing a board flat, the order of work is for all intents and purposes the same.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have a friend who has a milling machine. Would that work ?

Definitely yes, if the machinist knows how to fixture the plane and use the proper cutter. I'm fortunate to have a complete machine shop in my manufacturing plant, as well as employing a few tool makers. I gave a Millers Falls smoother to one of my guys about a half dozen years ago, to gring the sole flat. He gave it back to me the next day, but not ground, but milled. It is one of my sweetest planes. Another guy was great on a surface grinder.

If your friend is a full time machinist and has fixturing to hold the plane, as well as the proper cutter, then yes. If a hobbyist, you might be sacrificing your plane to the scrap pile. Length of time to do, if you pay a machinist? At least several hours and typical shop rates here in PA, start around $50/hour.

[steven c newman]

So sayeth yet another Sellers hater.....maybe do a youtube vid to show how YOU do this? Didn't think so...

3 points on a plane's sole NEED to be co-planar..toe, heel, and around the mouth opening....as long as the rest of the sole is not higher than those 3 points..plane is ready for use...trying to get the entire sole within a feeler gauge of perfectly flat is a fool's errand, and a waste of time. Area along the outside edges of the sole can be "relieved" a bit, to keep from marking the surface of the wood...about like the iron needing a slight camber at the corners...to avoid leaving "tracks". Just have to learn when it is "flat enough" to do it's job....K.I.S.S.

[Tom Trees]

So sayeth yet another Sellers hater.....maybe do a youtube vid to show how YOU do this? Didn't think so....

Might do some day, been thinkin bout making youtube videos.
It's very difficult to make videos incognito, i.e not showing your face, nor your shed off to the world.
No fifth amendment where I'm at, plenty of cartel folks round here do tool transportation for a living and are above the law.

It won't look good without a known precision brand surface plate though.
Don't think my machine beds suffices, nor my surface plate for youtube.
The incognito is my single biggest concern.

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Paul Sellers has its place, he is a teacher and teachers have their quirks. I read reccently an article from Paul that pointed me in the direction of some affordable chisels: I had some Luban (same stuff as Woodriver) in the past and they were convex on the back. After examining all other options I ended up ordering a 12mm and a 22mm Ashley Iles Mk2 bevelled chisel. Cannot see me having a need for more, besides that I rather have (and use) two decent ones than have half a dozen pieces of junk that are dangerous because they cannot keep an edge and are blunt all the time.

There is also David Weaver who does good research but lacks practical experience - He has a video of planing a thin piece of timber held at one end in a vice and then puts his plane down on the blade. He also adjusts his plane while planing and not looking past the sole and/or using the side lever. But he has published some worthwhile research and then we can take it from there. His research showed me the importance of having the chip breaker in the right spots (depending on what you want to achieve).

I also have some other endavours and if I read a book on the subject and I get one good idea out of the book then it is time and money well spend.

[Tom Trees]

What would you call practical experience Marinus...
Does refined planes in both wood and metal not count?
Been doing that for a while, made his kitchen from some cherry, and a guitar or two recently.

The man knows a whole lot about stones and tools from all over the world.
It should be no surprise that good research often stems from experience, strong opinions comes afterwards, otherwise you wouldn't be reading his blogs if he had nothing or little to say on the matter.

Might be seen as impractical having a bit of a stone habit, I suppose.
He ain't no spring chicken, and has a wealth of information in certain areas should you stumble across him researching something else.
David posts his stuff on the UKworkshop forum these days.
More on his videos than there is on a lot of folks channels, some quite important tips mentioned in passing that is very subtle, and you won't find the same content over and over again, which is a breath of fresh air.

If you use a close set cap iron, you will end up doing the same in regards to advancing and adjusting the cutter without looking down the sole.

I suspect that many folks omit the use of the close set cap iron, because they can't get that huge camber off their irons, to enable the cap to get close enough.
I hardly, if ever hear advice on hollowing the middle out to eliminate nearly all of the camber, this i do on the corner of the oilstone, or a high spot elsewhere on the stone.
The cap iron makes a good tell tale sign of someone worth watching, there's only about five folks on youtube who use it.
None of which would describe or present themselves as teachers, they just do it to demonstrate.
Yet still there is many many videos on how to disable this all important feature on your plane.

To make a metal surface flat, the same principles apply as with wood.
Stop shavings like David Charlesworth demonstrates, i.e... hollowing out the work, so a quick pass over the entire area will produce a flat end result.

I keep up watching every skillful woodworker on YT I can find to attain more knowledge.
Its a bit silly that folks are still getting tearout on finished boards although they have a press full of planes.
No excuse for that, unless you like torn out grain.

Nothing is a match for the cap iron.

Tom

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

What would you call practical experience Marinus...

......

Tom

Tom

My grandfather was the ships master carpenter on the last clipper to go around the Cape. His grandfather was in charge of the military dockyards in Amsterdam. My parents had a wharf and I've built a couple of clinker boats besides a couple of times a whole houselot of furniture. I do not view myself as having practical experience: in the days of my forebearers it would take at least 15 years before being regarded as a tradesman. In that respect I view myself as only a hobbyist, a tyro.

[Tom Trees]

Don't know how much precision metalworking that calls for, but nothing would surprise me, what work might have been needed on a ship, might have been a skilled gunsmith also.
I will say that I think your definition of practical experience must be quite comprehensive, if you do not view yourself as having much of it.
I doubt you will find the likes of that much information on one channel, so you might have to delve into metalworking ones aswell, and so on.

Pity there's not much machine restoration or metalworking relating to woodworkers on YT yet.
A few like Jack Forsberg, but I don't recall him doing much with hand planes for example, he mainly demonstrates his beautifully restored Wadkins and such.

I have lapped enough metal enough times to know what happens when you don't leave the edges proud.
Wouldn't have learned if I wasn't into restoring machines, making tools and other components.
I still call myself a woodworker though, although I have spent as much or more time on metalwork.
the other could be called bodger but that words allready taken by the woodworking folks, bad mechanics or builders :rolleyes:

I'm not really that concerned whether someone has crediantals or not, the less talk about anything unrelated the better,
Not interested in their life story or what papers say about their expertise.
You gotta find who's the best at what they do, doesn't matter if they haven't done much else
I just wish to learn the skill that someone is demonstrating.
Plenty of folks making videos on their own, so those skills would nearly have to be encompassed
as being savvy with computers also would be applicable, if you were to try and find someone willing to show you real world work,
i.e, Not cut scenes and the likes,
unless the presenter has a very broad spectrum of viewers to be able to afford a cameraman.
That route always revolves around money in the end of the day, and less about demonstrating the best work that they can do.
He who dares to teach and learn in real time video, is who I'd rather watch.

Tom

[Tony Zaffuto]

Don't know how much precision metalworking that calls for, but nothing would surprise me, what work might have been needed on a ship, might have been a skilled gunsmith also.
I will say that I think your definition of practical experience must be quite comprehensive, if you do not view yourself as having much of it.
I doubt you will find the likes of that much information on one channel, so you might have to delve into metalworking ones aswell, and so on.

Pity there's not much machine restoration or metalworking relating to woodworkers on YT yet.
A few like Jack Forsberg, but I don't recall him doing much with hand planes for example, he mainly demonstrates his beautifully restored Wadkins and such.

I have lapped enough metal enough times to know what happens when you don't leave the edges proud.
Wouldn't have learned if I wasn't into restoring machines, making tools and other components.
I still call myself a woodworker though, although I have spent as much or more time on metalwork.
the other could be called bodger but that words allready taken by the woodworking folks, bad mechanics or builders :rolleyes:

I'm not really that concerned whether someone has crediantals or not, the less talk about anything unrelated the better,
Not interested in their life story or what papers say about their expertise.
You gotta find who's the best at what they do, doesn't matter if they haven't done much else
I just wish to learn the skill that someone is demonstrating.
Plenty of folks making videos on their own, so those skills would nearly have to be encompassed
as being savvy with computers also would be applicable, if you were to try and find someone willing to show you real world work,
i.e, Not cut scenes and the likes,
unless the presenter has a very broad spectrum of viewers to be able to afford a cameraman.
That route always revolves around money in the end of the day, and less about demonstrating the best work that they can do.
He who dares to teach and learn in real time video, is who I'd rather watch.

Tom

Tom,

I own a powder metal manufacturing plant, and in it, I have a complete machine shop. A few years back, I had a metal lathe and a mill in my basement, (besides my woodworking shop). Despite using metal working equipment, I would not mess with my woodworking tools, except for the simplest of things.

With power equipment, there is just so much that can go wrong, in the blink of an eye. I have been around skilled machinists for the past thirty years, and fully half, I would not entrust to flattening the sole of a plane. In the greater scheme of things, these forums have many reading, with little skill, and their enthusiasm may lead some to correct problems that really aren't problems! Learn to use the tools first before deciding something needs flattened. Checking a plane sole? Hope you gave a granite plate long enough, along with feeler gages.

There is an order of steps that all must take to progress in skills. I've lived a varied life: college, though I quit partially through completion of my masters, a four year carpenter's apprenticeship, then work as a journeymen, than as a field superintendent and finally, in 1989, starting my manufacturing plant. There is a specific order that must be followed in acquiring skills and the shortcuts are few.

[steven c newman]

Perhaps Mr. Trees has never sat through one of Roy Underhills shows? He does each show in a single take....in "real time", too. Or..just visit Roy's school he runs....

About the only "cut scenes" Roy has...is when he cuts a finger...

[Tom Trees]

I manage to get by using the internet Tony, learning from being poor and buying machines needing work or other components.
Done some quite accurate work like reboring pulleys and such with no lathe.
The basic stuff that you could expect to find on industrial woodworking machinery for cheap.
Have to flatten a tablesaw come winter that has a huge bow in the table, It would have been the last thing I would have checked, but making up a missing a rail
and working on the sliding fence made these errors more apparent, and it would be dangerous if left as is.
I must post some pictures of my machine resto in the appropriate forum when its finished, I have little time for gluing up left in the workshop.

Watched probably all of Roy Underhills shows Steven,
Hes puts on a good show, buts thats what it is.
What would you regard as his finest work done on that show?
I like the folding ladder design :cool:

You won't get much done in half an hour if your after refinement, unless you have a whole workshop of top notch machinery.
Refined cabinetry by hand takes time.


Tom

[steven c newman]

In bringing back this hi-jacked thread....going back to what I have learned..in rehabbing several hundred hand planes.

Soles precision ground to 0.00001? marketing hype, is about all.....unless the way the maker is casting the plane's body means they HAVE to grind the sole that "flat"..

save the feeler gauges for when you set the points on a vintage car's engine....

Bad part about "marketing hype" is the only thing that "Feels the Quality" will be your wallet.....

Sheesh...maybe tomorrow, I'll rehab another block plane, or two....should have the done in maybe an hour, per plane? YMMV

[Jim Koepke]

Soles precision ground to 0.00001? marketing hype, is about all...

Is anyone actually claiming such a tolerance or is this just for emphasis?

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

Is anyone actually claiming such a tolerance or is this just for emphasis?

jtk

The only one I’ve ever seen working to those tolerances is Dan Gelbart. Look up his name and “air bearing.” He beats it by another decimal point. Of course, he’s not a woodworker.:D

[Tony Zaffuto]

The only one I’ve ever seen working to those tolerances is Dan Gelbart. Look up his name and “air bearing.” He beats it by another decimal point. Of course, he’s not a woodworker.:D

My QC lab has a Z-mic that will measure to those tolerances. Not practical.

[Bruce Haugen]

My QC lab has a Z-mic that will measure to those tolerances. Not practical.

Not at all practical, especially for woodworking purposes. It’s achievable, though, when conditions warrant, e.g., if you’re grinding a Hubble telescope lens, but not if you’re flattening a plane. I never did find out the tolerances claimed by Karl Holtey.

[steven c newman]

This one was done this evening...
415007
And, given a test drive, once the iron was sharpened up...
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Saving another one for tomorrow
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Might take a while..5 block planes needed rehabbed...one done 4 to go...
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With #4 taking the longest.
YMMV...

[steven c newman]

Prefer his Rachels Standing Desk
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But, mainly in Curly Maple, with a few bits of Cherry...

In High School, back in the 60s....Not only did we learn metal working ( I sucked at welding) Drafting, but also all sorts of woodworking tasks. We had to not draw the various wood joints...we have to make each joint with hand tools...and be graded on each. And..that was how long ago?

[Mark Hennebury]

All you need is the right setup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niop1HkuzdY


Not at all practical, especially for woodworking purposes. It’s achievable, though, when conditions warrant, e.g., if you’re grinding a Hubble telescope lens, but not if you’re flattening a plane. I never did find out the tolerances claimed by Karl Holtey.

[Tom Bussey]

Do yourself a favor and save yourself some money at the same time. Don't bother trying to flatten it.

[Tom Trees]

Do you reckon he does finer work though, its that kind of style you would expect to see on that show.
I've heard James Hamilton mention he does, obviously not talking about the Woodwrights shop, but he's not exactly at the David Charlesworth end of the spectrum either.

I can post some folks videos if you like, of what a planing looks like with the close set cap iron, there's not many folks using it.
You might realise what I'm talking about, for the plane set up like above to work correctly, compared to just having a large camber that will work regardless of what state the sole is in like what that daft video demonstrates.
The errors might be more apparent if you were to compare two long planes together, or learn to set the cap iron and use the plane then.

Tom

[Mark Hennebury]

Why wouldn't you just hand scrape them use a surface plate and ink?

[lowell holmes]

If the plane is valued, take it to a machine shop and have the sole ground. I did that one time and it is a permanent fix.

[steven c newman]

Fool's errand...

[Jim Koepke]

Why wouldn't you just hand scrape them use a surface plate and ink?

For many folks, not having a surface plate, a hand scraper or ink might be a reason for hesitation in undertaking such an endeavor.

Alas we have strayed far afield of the original posting:


On YT there are a lot of videos that show how to flatten the sole on hand planes. It seems fairly easy, but I wonder if there are anything that can go wrong if the tecnique is not right?
Can one accidently be "rounding" the sole instead because of more gringding at the ends than in the middle of the sole ?

Is a granite plate from a window usually flat enough for the job ?

What grit size should I end up with ?

Thanks..

So far there have been responses to the 'what can possibly go wrong' questions:

Yes, things can go wrong with poor planning or "technique."

Yes, "one can accidentally be "rounding" the sole," both side to side and toe to heel if not careful in understanding the problem with the sole and having a plan on correcting it.

Lapping a sole isn't an automatic back and forth movement over an abrasive surface.

There are also two questions in the original post that have been left unanswered:


Is a granite plate from a window usually flat enough for the job ?

My guess is most folks are not sure about "granite plates from windows." This may be due to Lasse being in Denmark and building components are made with different material than what others are familiar.

If one is going to work on the sole of a plane having a known flat surface is important.

For removal of light rust, a sanding block has done well for me. One time my sanding block was a long piece of wood salvaged from a table:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373

The third post is where the sole lapping begins. This was about a year before buying a hunk of granite from a monument maker:

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This doesn't get as much use as it did in the past. It still comes in handy for abrasive needs.

As far as grit size goes, my planes are worked to a 320 grit. 80 grit would work, but it looks ugly until the sole is worn in a bit.

One important thing to consider before doing any work on the sole of a plane is know what it is that is to be accomplished. If you do not know, do not start.

jtk

[Tom M King]

They must be no good at all unless measured to a 1/4 wavelength of light by interference bands between the sole, and an optical flat.
https://www.lapmaster-wolters.com/optical-flats.html

My best friend, and I hand ground telescope optics when we were teenagers. It was much harder to grind an optical flat than a parabolic telescope mirror. Someone mentioned the Hubble. When they were looking for a fix of the first design, my friend carried the 12-1/2" f/6 we'd made when we were teenagers into the optics lab-blanks ordered from Edmund scientific. It was better than anything they had in house, and my friend was put on the team that designed, and built the fix.

I never had much trouble flattening plane soles.

[Tom Bussey]

I thought I replied this morning and said to save yourself some time and money and don't try. The world is not flat like 99 percent seem to think, Most scratch up the bottom and think they flattened it. And I deleted the pictures of how I held the plane so I could grind the bottom by accident so I couldn't post it. The plane in the pictures took a couple of hours to do and the machine's sole purpose is to remove metal. Save your money, make sure it is sharp enough to shave with and use it as is.

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