Saw Skills

[ken hatch]

Shannon Rogers over at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/ made a statement that I've long felt was true but had never heard articulated. That saw skills were the foundational skill set of woodworking.


If you can saw to a line everything else is easy. We go on and on about sharpening, natural stones vs. man made, what steel is best HC vs. A2. Wood stock planes vs. metal and so on. Bottom line if you can saw, and any saw that is sharp will work from the cheapest to a fully blinged out Bad Axe, making joints is quick and easy. If you can not, well you are in for a lot of work that often does not turn out well.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

Shannon Rogers over at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/ made a statement that I've long felt was true but had never heard articulated. That saw skills were the foundational skill set of woodworking.


If you can saw to a line everything else is easy. We go on and on about sharpening, natural stones vs. man made, what steel is best HC vs. A2. Wood stock planes vs. metal and so on. Bottom line if you can saw, and any saw that is sharp will work from the cheapest to a fully blinged out Bad Axe, making joints is quick and easy. If you can not, well you are in for a lot of work that often does not turn out well.

ken

Based on my recent dovetail experience, I absolutely agree with you Ken. I'll go watch that link, too.
Thanks,
Fred

[James Pallas]

Sawing is likely the most essential skill in woodworking. More time can be saved with accurate saw skills than most other operations. I hear and see things like " leave a sixteenth or even an eight and clean up with a plane". When I was schooled in sawing my mentor would say things like "take the line" or "leave the line". He also said things like, "I can hear that saw flapping like bvd's on a clothesline in a hurricane". I still do okay. Age and eyesight has taken some away but the masters voice is still heard. I think about it each time I pick up a saw hand or powered.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

When I was schooled in sawing my mentor would say things like "take the line" or "leave the line".

My tendency is to barely leave the line:

383402

The knifed line can be seen all around without waste to trim.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

This is something I have been saying on this forum for years, although not always well received. Indeed, I just had an offline conversation with a Creeker on this point.

“Cut then Pare” with a chisel or “ Cut then Plane” with a shoulder plane or router plane may be necessary fixes for poor saw technique or errors ( everyone makes them), but they should not be standard practice.

These teachings cripple development.

We should all aim for professional- level skills. This means we cut tenons and other joints so they fit right off the saw blade without paring or planing. Anyone can do it. It doesn’t take an expensive saw. Set goals. Analyze mistakes. Correct. Examine. Repeat.

[Patrick Chase]

Shannon Rogers over at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/ made a statement that I've long felt was true but had never heard articulated. That saw skills were the foundational skill set of woodworking.


If you can saw to a line everything else is easy. We go on and on about sharpening, natural stones vs. man made, what steel is best HC vs. A2. Wood stock planes vs. metal and so on. Bottom line if you can saw, and any saw that is sharp will work from the cheapest to a fully blinged out Bad Axe, making joints is quick and easy. If you can not, well you are in for a lot of work that often does not turn out well.

ken

Hmm, how can we spice up this thread.... I've got it, saw sharpening.

Seriously, I basically agree with this thesis. It's called *cutting* joinery for a reason. That's why I cited (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263391-NOW-I-get-it!-A-moment-of-neander-nirvana&p=2793904#post2793904) the realization that I could saw sort of straight as my own moment of neander nirvana in that thread a little while back.

[Warren Mickley]

I could not agree more, Stanley. When people are so afraid of messing things up, craftsmanship suffers.

Forty years ago Dan O'Hagan, who was a pioneer in hand work, said to me "Don't be ashamed of your mistakes." I wasn't sure what he meant by that, but I took it to mean that I should go for the line and just take the consequences. The result was that rather than getting sloppier as one might have expected, everything became both neater and faster.

There is a thought that one should do professional looking work right at the outset. Learn to make professional joints in a weekend workshop. The result is that the teachers develop alternative techniques to ensure success. These techniques actually delay the development of skills.

[sean contenti]

Maybe the pushback Stan mentions comes from relative newbies (such as myself) for whom the idea is, frankly, a little intimidating. I totally agree with the premise - but up at the salt face, it's really easy for a less-than-confident sawyer to rationalize "oh, well I really don't want to dive into the joint, so I'll leave a good margin and trim it down".

EDIT - and the rationalization likely gets easier for those of us who aren't relying on woodworking to pay the bills. It largely takes away a time crunch, so the idea of taking the extra time to trim waste gets that little extra mental nudge

[Derek Cohen]

This is something I have been saying on this forum for years, although not always well received. Indeed, I just had an offline conversation with a Creeker on this point.

“Cut then Pare” with a chisel or “ Cut then Plane” with a shoulder plane or router plane may be necessary fixes for poor saw technique or errors ( everyone makes them), but they should not be standard practice.

These teachings cripple development.

We should all aim for professional- level skills. This means we cut tenons and other joints so they fit right off the saw blade without paring or planing. Anyone can do it. It doesn’t take an expensive saw. Set goals. Analyze mistakes. Correct. Examine. Repeat.

Stan, I've said the same on numerous occasions. Aim to fit dovetails off the saw. The number of articles I've read that argue that one should pare away the last mm .... sigh. Ditto, saw tenon cheeks to the line. It requires a go-for-it attitude. Without this progressing is going to be very slow.

Regards from Auckland

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Hear hear!

Excellent points, Warren.

[Stanley Covington]

Don’t be afraid to glue some wood slips to a FU’d joint and resaw. But always strive to figure out why the error happened, and think of ways to correct it. The skills will come quicker as Warren and Derek pointed out.

[Brian Holcombe]

Couldn't agree more! The best thing I did for my own woodworking was to cut half-laps for art frames by hand. It's such a tedious bit of work if you miss the line and so I trained myself to saw the side of the line and have a good joint in a few moments rather than sawing away from the line and paring.

Paring is higher risk than accurately sawing. I have to pare things here and there but on the whole I feel it is something to avoid.

[Jim Koepke]

Hmm, how can we spice up this thread.... I've got it, saw sharpening.

Learning to sharpen has improved my sawing through better understanding of a saw's mechanics.

My sawing still needs a bit of paring as often as not. My saw skill is improving. Hopefully the need to pare a joint into fitting will diminish more in the future.

A swipe or two on the shooting board to smooth the end grain is good for me.

jtk

[Matt Lau]

It would be nice to get some basic saw practice drills.

[Jim Koepke]

It would be nice to get some basic saw practice drills.

Not sure what you mean by this. Most of the time my practice is either dovetails or sawing to a line. On rip cuts it is kind of fun and challenge to mark off a bunch of lines about 1/8" appart and then after cutting them all saw half way in between without a line.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

It would be nice to get some basic saw practice drills.

Matt, to learn sawing straight and PLACEMENT, one needs to make a complete joint. Dovetails and M&T can be time consuming because they require chopping of the waste. If you want to learn to saw, practice a "saw-only" joint, like a bridle.

I also am not sure 'sawing' is the most important skill in hand work.

If I had to vote for the most critical hand skill, it would be marking (and knowing what that mark means).

I do agree with the general sentiment here that crutches that discourage skill building and efficiency are not good, and are probably more prevalent in culture now more than ever.

I'm making a Windsor chair now, and there's not much critical sawing here, yet it's about the most handwork intensive project I've embarked on. Even on the over-emphasized dovetail, the hard part for me has always been transferring the mating marks reliably - not the actual sawing.

[steven c newman]

Have seen older pictures of students in a "Manual Training Class" holding a try square against the saw's plate....not the line, the plate. Try that a few times......

[John Stankus]

It would be nice to get some basic saw practice drills.


Exercises in Wood-Working: With a Short Treatise on Wood by Ivin Sickels Christopher Schwarz put out a reissue of this which has exercises for most of the basic handtools

[Jim Koepke]

Have seen older pictures of students in a "Manual Training Class" holding a try square against the saw's plate....not the line, the plate. Try that a few times......

Worked for me:

383466

The only difference is it was a shop made triangle.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

This is something I have been saying on this forum for years, although not always well received. Indeed, I just had an offline conversation with a Creeker on this point.

“Cut then Pare” with a chisel or “ Cut then Plane” with a shoulder plane or router plane may be necessary fixes for poor saw technique or errors ( everyone makes them), but they should not be standard practice.

These teachings cripple development.

We should all aim for professional- level skills. This means we cut tenons and other joints so they fit right off the saw blade without paring or planing. Anyone can do it. It doesn’t take an expensive saw. Set goals. Analyze mistakes. Correct. Examine. Repeat.


+1 to what Stan said. One of the biggest improvements I've ever seen my work in both speed and accuracy came from changing from sawing just outside the layout line to "splitting" the knife line. Much less need for final "clean up" fitting/pairing with plane or chisel and for me at least, generally a better result.


Just my opinion,YMMV.


Best, Mike

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Shannon Rogers over at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/ made a statement that I've long felt was true but had never heard articulated. That saw skills were the foundational skill set of woodworking.


If you can saw to a line everything else is easy. We go on and on about sharpening, natural stones vs. man made, what steel is best HC vs. A2. Wood stock planes vs. metal and so on. Bottom line if you can saw, and any saw that is sharp will work from the cheapest to a fully blinged out Bad Axe, making joints is quick and easy. If you can not, well you are in for a lot of work that often does not turn out well.

ken

Thanks for share, although I couldn't read the article, except for a small initial portion... :rolleyes:

I always got surprised why Neanders look to praise planes and one mile after, also chisels... but saws... they look as a second grade tool for a number of people (although not all, certainly).

IMO, also, saw and sawing would be the number one activity for anyone involved in woodworking, included Neanders... interesting for most "machined" woodworkers, the table saw actually is the central tool for their workshop...

Once again, thanks to bring the subject and to make me feel not alone! :D

[Matt Lau]

Not sure what you mean by this. Most of the time my practice is either dovetails or sawing to a line. On rip cuts it is kind of fun and challenge to mark off a bunch of lines about 1/8" appart and then after cutting them all saw half way in between without a line.

jtk

Thanks for the clarification. I tend to overcomplicate things to a silly extent.

[Matt Lau]

Exercises in Wood-Working: With a Short Treatise on Wood by Ivin Sickels Christopher Schwarz put out a reissue of this which has exercises for most of the basic handtools

Thanks! I ordered the book.

I think that my first project will be an underhill workbench. However, I'll likely cheat by using some predimensioned stock and rip with a tablesaw.
I'm starting to really think that a sawbench would also be a worthy addition.

[ken hatch]

Thanks for share, although I couldn't read the article, except for a small initial portion... :rolleyes:

I always got surprised why Neanders look to praise planes and one mile after, also chisels... but saws... they look as a second grade tool for a number of people (although not all, certainly).

IMO, also, saw and sawing would be the number one activity for anyone involved in woodworking, included Neanders... interesting for most "machined" woodworkers, the table saw actually is the central tool for their workshop...

Once again, thanks to bring the subject and to make me feel not alone! :D

Qsvaldo,

As you can see you are not alone :).

I had a guy on my blog make the counter argument that chisels were the foundation tool and if you break it down to how wood is removed (which he did) I can squint really hard and kinda see his point, if you were an engineer, and never learned to saw to the line and have all the time in the world to finish a project. Otherwise he was full of it, I declined to engage:D.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

I had a guy on my blog make the counter argument that chisels were the foundation tool and if you break it down to how wood is removed (which he did) I can squint really hard and kinda see his point, if you were an engineer, and never learned to saw to the line and have all the time in the world to finish a project. Otherwise he was full of it, I declined to engage:D

Well, if you think deeply about it the teeth of a saw are just a bunch of little chisels. And a plane is simply a fixture to hold a chisel at a specific angle and depth :-).

[ken hatch]

Well, if you think deeply about it the teeth of a saw are just a bunch of little chisels. And a plane is simply a fixture to hold a chisel at a specific angle and depth :-).

Damn Patrick I didn't know it was you :D

ken

[James Pallas]

Mentor said. "Planes are finishing tools, chisels are to fix up what you screwed up sawing except for carving chisels that are finishing tools"
Jim

[James Waldron]

Perfecting my dovetails does nothing for the quality of my mortices; perfect mortices contribute nothing to my rebates; flat, square, hand planed rebates can't help my miters; none of the above keep my marking out in line. To suggest that one skill is the precious that rules them all is, in my thinking, a bit of a reach. To be a competent maker (of whatever it is that you make), you need them all.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

As an exercise I've started doing some tenons by hand. Because I have a deadline, I did the mortises with my dedicated unit, but decided I needed to saw and fit by hand.
I'm embarrassed by having to fix wandering so, undercuts, miscues - it's like getting to Carnagie Hall.
I agree with everyone who says cut the line, fit the joint.
Let me get closer, ever closer, and some day I'll say the same.

[Flamone LaChaud]

Regarding exercises for sawing to the line - I forget who I heard say this, but they said that every time they go into the shop to do any sawing - they always do 'warm-ups' - grabbing a scrap piece of wood, clamping it up as if they were doing dovetails . . . and drawing a dozen lines on the end at various angles right to left, left to right, and straight across. They would then saw each down about an inch trying to remain snuggled up to the line the entire way. Said by the time they finished the 12th one - they felt ready to put their saw to use on the 'important pieces.' At the end of their day, they'd saw off their practice end and get it ready for the next day.

[Mike King]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Which goes to the question of technique. There's a lot of advice to practice, but there's been no discussion here of the technique that results in success; that is, what are the biomechanics necessary (useful?) to address a saw to the workpiece and cut to the line?

I learned sawing in junior high school and promptly turned to machines for 40 years. Now I use a handsaw periodically when cutting certain joints. A guy showed me how to cut dovetails, but I'm not sure I truly understand how to address a saw.

Mike

[ken hatch]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Which goes to the question of technique. There's a lot of advice to practice, but there's been no discussion here of the technique that results in success; that is, what are the biomechanics necessary (useful?) to address a saw to the workpiece and cut to the line?

I learned sawing in junior high school and promptly turned to machines for 40 years. Now I use a handsaw periodically when cutting certain joints. A guy showed me how to cut dovetails, but I'm not sure I truly understand how to address a saw.

Mike

Mike,

A link to Joel's blog over at TFWW: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/270/How+To+Saw+Straight

I'm not sure it is answering your question but maybe.

ken

[Simon MacGowen]

Well, the adage "Practice makes Perfect" isn't really true. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Mike

BULLSEYE.

The practice makes practice saying has misled so many people learning to do a task that many learners give up after a few practices with bad results whether it is sawing, planing or chiseling.

The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes.

Simon

[James Pallas]

I try to remember that learning to do something is a process of stages. Make it as easy as possible and learn the stages before moving on. I would approach sawing this way. Start by having a reasonable tool, not expensive necessarily. Make sure it is tuned well for learning. Fit to you hand sharp and straight. Easy starting for sure. Use easy but clean cutting wood, like poplar or alder. Pines can be sloppy cutting. Don't put any lines just start the saw and cut until it's easy. Now introduce a line across the edge and do that until you get it. You own body will make you adjust position until you get it. Now introduce a verticle line until you adjust yourself to do that. Make sure you master before you move on. Remember you did learn to eat with a spoon. Your parent most likely put that spoon in your hand, knuckles up, closed fist. You may still do that today but most likely not. Above all make it easy on yourself and go at your own pace. This is my take and I have taught a few others.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

BULLSEYE.

The practice makes practice saying has misled so many people learning to do a task that many learners give up after a few practices with bad results whether it is sawing, planing or chiseling.

The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes.

Simon

The theory behind practice is to make an attempt, review the attempt for errors, then determine how to correct the errors and try again.

True practice includes analysis and corrections.

Making the same practice cut over and over without any change could be considered insanity, i.e. doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

"Perfect practice makes perfect."

"The oversimplified wisdom (not just this one) has done a lot of harm and people offering such advice with good intentions often do not realize it. A good woodworker (Gary?) recommends people doing one dovetail a day but repeating something in the way that didn't work in the first place wouldn't result in better outcomes."

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?

The "practice makes perfect" suggestions - including mine - are to dispell the myth that are magic words and suggestions that will get you to perfect dovetails immediately. People here are quick to present their techniques as the key to their success and I firmly believe it's not the technique, it's the fact that you practiced (ok, practiced "perfectly").

[Patrick Chase]

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?


As of the last time I checked "pedantry" wasn't against SMC terms of service :-).

I agree with you that when reasonable people say "practice makes perfect" they assume that the person doing the practicing will adjust what they're doing based on results.

[Frederick Skelly]

Mike,

A link to Joel's blog over at TFWW: https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/270/How+To+Saw+Straight

I'm not sure it is answering your question but maybe.

ken

Ken, thank your for posting that. It also links to his blog post on "sawing uphill". Both of these will help me out. So again, thank you.
Fred

[ken hatch]

Ken, thank your for posting that. It also links to his blog post on "sawing uphill". Both of these will help me out. So again, thank you.
Fred

Thanks Fred,

I never know how far into the weeds to go, but bottom line sawing is mostly body position and seeing. Both are hard to write about.

ken

[James Pallas]

Thanks Fred,

I never know how far into the weeds to go, but bottom line sawing is mostly body position and seeing. Both are hard to write about.

ken

True, true, constant adjustments are necessary over the years. Bad back, bifocals, trifocals, etc, etc.��
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

Come on. Does it really need mentioning that one shouldn't beat their head against a wall, but should critically analyze and try to fix errors, and seek outside coaching/critique when you can't figure out how to stop the same mistakes?

[/QUOTE]
As a giver of advice, this kind of response of yours with assumptions on the intended receiver is exactly the point I wad driving at. You still don't get it, do you?

If I am very good at dovetails, why the heck do I need to practice them each day, to borrow an earlier quote? I only need to practice a cut or two before I work on my dovetail project. In reality, I don't even do that kind of warm up.

Practice makes perfect only makes sense when the way of practicing is right and that is not necessarily the case for many beginners.

Simon

[Prashun Patel]

Fair enough, Simon. I made an assumption about the receiver.

[Mike Holbrook]

Ken’s link to Joel’s post on TFWW (Tools For Working Wood) and James’ comments above, may get us closer to methods for learning to saw better. I read the article at TFWW back when I bought a saw from them. I did the exercise and I think it helps. James’ suggestion seems to be close to Joel’s, maybe easing into marking a cut line or two.

I like James’ idea of developing a feel for the saw and body position before marking lines. Staying with the small steps James mentions I have more recently started marking lines more & more accurately. Which relates to a point Prashun made about the importance of marking. I spend more time marking exactly, on three sides, which gives me a better guide. It is a pain to find that a line being followed is not perpendicular to another line.....The other thing I have started doing is working both corners and the top line early, attempting to get a slot that my saw slides effortlessly in. If I get both corners and the top line straight the cut seems to be accurate, if not...well. I am trying to use a knife for marking. The issue I have is I may or may not be able to actually see the knife line. Lately I have been using a direct movable light source shinning directly on the subject to help with that issue. I have also started hand sharpening pencils with a pocket knife or chisel to get the actual point of the pencil more durable and sharp.

Other suggestions? Talking more about practise. I understand the ultimate goal is to saw perfect lines without “crutches”.

[steven c newman]

I found that the thumb on my left hand helps quite a bit, in keeping the saw going staight in the cut. Thumbnail against both the line, AND the side of the saw's plate. Bend the thumb until the knuckle also contacts the plate....and keep both of them there. Older sources also show a square held against the saw's plate...so the sawyer can eye how the saw is cutting.

I use the thumb a lot, when I am sawing dovetails, BTW.