On sharpening threads

[Derek Cohen]

There is something about a sharpening thread to which everyone feels compelled to contribute. Young and old, amateur and professional, newbie and experienced. And no one seems to read what others have written - they are in too much of a rush to put their thoughts down for others to read and applaud.

When it appears that The Post (the profound reply) fails to gain a response (because no one has read it since they are instead too busy writing their reply), we finally take time out to read what others have written. At this stage it is All or Nothing … either others re-write what I have written (in other words, agree with me), or they are clearly too inexperienced and have missed the profundity of my insights. WHAT is so hard about understanding that my way will save you YEARS of unnecessary experimentation and expense?!

Thank God that we are all different. It is not that we would end up bored senseless or have little to discuss (constant agreement is not a conversation), but learning requires bouncing ideas off one another. Ah, but this seems more often forgotten in a sharpening thread.

The endless sharpening threads are doomed to perpetual repetition and revolving, repeated statements since there cannot be universal agreement. It is impossible since sharpening has as many methods as Patrick has sharpening stones. That fundamental factor escapes all in the passion of the moment.

The thread finally loses energy after everyone has repeated themselves several times, or a moderator decides that what little debate there was has been replaced by too many slanderous remarks … and the thread is closed.

Of course, since this cannot bring closure, it is doomed to be repeated the next time someone asks, “Should I use waterstones or ….?”

Regards from Auckland (leaving tomorrow)

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

So, to your point; do I need a microbevel or not?

[Dave Zellers]

There is something about a sharpening thread to which everyone feels compelled to contribute. And no one seems to read what others have written - they are in too much of a rush to put their thoughts down for others to read and applaud.Derek
I'm sorry. What did you say?

[Tony Wilkins]

So, to your point; do I need a microbevel or not?

Yes. And be sure to use only Hunts ketchup on you water stones.

[Dave Zellers]

But seriously, I LOVE, and I mean LOVE sharpening threads. Because I'm getting pretty darn good at sharpening and it's because good people here have been willing to share their knowledge gained over decades of trial and error as well as their knowledge gained from elders who have shared what they learned before them..

I am now sharpening my kitchen knives on my water stones with amazing results. The last time I cut myself slicing vegetables, I didn't feel a thing.

[Dave Zellers]

The thread finally loses energy after everyone has repeated themselves several times, or a moderator decides that what little debate there was has been replaced by too many slanderous remarks … and the thread is closed.

In my perfect world, the perfect sharpening thread would never end. It would become the longest thread in the history of threads. The most common phrase would be "I'll have to try that".

The second would include a picture and say "Look at this shaving! Thank You!".

Inevitably there would be a third from me with a pic saying "Check out these stitches!".

[Doug Hepler]

Oh, Lord, won’tcha buy me a Shapton Glass Stone?
I sharpen with sandpaper, and feel so alone.
The cool kids all mock me whenever I tell
That paper is cheaper and does just as well.
And it never will shatter if it happens to fall
And I don’t need to soak it, a few drops, that’s all.
I never did buy Naniwa nor Nagura
It’s already flat, of that I am shura
But still, gracious Lord, I must make amends
I must find a way to conform to the trends
And also impress all my sharpening friends.

[steven c newman]

Too late to make the Popcorn? I could run up to the local Movie House, and buy a few tubs.....buttered?

[Patrick Chase]

Oh, Lord, won’tcha buy me a Shapton Glass Stone?

Brilliant. As I read that I heard it in Janis Joplin's voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tGuJ34062s).

[Patrick Chase]

The endless sharpening threads are doomed to perpetual repetition and revolving, repeated statements since there cannot be universal agreement. It is impossible since sharpening has as many methods as Patrick has sharpening stones.

Let nobody say that I lack stones.

The one serious remark I would make is that in my experience sharpening threads seem to go awry mostly because of ego, and specifically people who can't accept that others might have found their way to different but nonetheless valid solutions (at least for their own needs). If we could all just get that through our heads it would be a lot easier.

[Andrew Hughes]

Asking a group of anonymous woodworkers for the best way to sharpen is like asking contestants in a beauty pageant who the prettiest girl is in the room. :)

[Stanley Covington]

Asking a group of anonymous woodworkers for the best way to sharpen is like asking contestants in a beauty pageant who the prettiest girl is in the room. :)

So true, so true. Add to this analogy that everyone has a girlfriend on the pageant stage.

[Tom Stenzel]

Too late to make the Popcorn? I could run up to the local Movie House, and buy a few tubs.....buttered?

I've never tried butter on my oil stones. Might not work good but it sure would smell nice.

I've sharpened knives, scissors, planes chisels but never threads*. It'll provide yet another way for me to spill blood while tightening nuts.

-Tom

*This morning my daughter sent a message that her iphone whatever had fallen in the bathroom and the screen shattered. I promptly sent a message back that she needed a phone that was toilet trained. I guess today is bad pun day. Sorry Derek!

[Jim Koepke]

Brilliant. As I read that I heard it in Janis Joplin's voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tGuJ34062s).

Same here, Brilliant Doug.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

The endless sharpening threads are doomed to perpetual repetition and revolving, repeated statements since there cannot be universal agreement. It is impossible since sharpening has as many methods as Patrick has sharpening stones. That fundamental factor escapes all in the passion of the moment.

My answer to many sharpening questions is often a "perpetual repetition" being what ever works best for the person asking.

Often a poster will ask about the best way to sharpen without mentioning what they already have. There are two dozen replies before we discover the OP has a set of chisels, a half dozen planes and has been using a particular set of stones for 10 years.

What is even more difficult is how to help a beginner having problems with sharpening. Without being able to see many of the details of what can become big problems it is nigh impossible to triage the situation.

One of the best bits of advise about sharpening ever given to me was, "do it like you mean it."

Getting the right touch and pressure on any particular sharpening media is the 'trick' to the skill.

Another important part of learning sharpening is to accept that there is always something more that can be discovered in the art of sharpening.

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

So, to your point; do I need a microbevel or not?
Yes.

P.S. Filling up my 10 char quota.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

This thread made me smile.
Although new here, I'm a regular dezin of a Harley Davidson forum, where the subject of oils, and tires, their characteristics frequency of change/mileage are hotly debated - normally for the X2 (x squared) time, often in a given month. Indeed why not sharpening threads? We all aspire to have the best system.
Besides, if we're writing here (posting there) we don't have to display our work or go for a long satisfying ride.
I opt for the garage shop and the ride.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

This has now become a long sharpening thread thread complaining about long sharpening threads.

[James Waldron]

Geez, Derek! You shrinks and psychs are all alike! Taking wholesome, good, clean fun and redefining it into deviant behavior that threatens civilization.

Why can't we have our debates ad infinitum; it's a welcome outlet for the frustrations of all our challenges in life in a forum where no one is threatened by the tyranny of the majority, since in sharpening threads there is no majority. And with endless opportunities to spin our favorite tales each week (and sometimes twice a week), we remain unfettered by mob rule and life by consensus. Think how boring - and frustrating - life would be it we all had to conform. Sharpening threads are healthy! Sharpening threads are liberty!

And that includes the liberty to refrain from clicking on the link to visit sharpening threads. Like the rest of us, you already know what's going on in there. If you have other outlets for your frustrations, you, unlike so many woodworkers, may not need the liberating joy of another sharpening thread.

Full disclosure: while I've let go my passions for Mercedes and Porsche and moved into pick-em ups, I did call up Janice Joplin on YouTube in another tab while writing my present post. Laughed out loud. Good memories of the old days. I think that's healthy too.

:rolleyes:

[William Fretwell]

You only need two stones and a strop but some people just have to get that third stone so their first three strokes of the plane are 'better'.
Just sharpened our main chefs knife with water stones to have my wife declare it needed sharpening as it would not cut a tomato!
Clearly I told her "you are buying the wrong tomatoes!".

[Jim Koepke]

This has now become a long sharpening thread thread complaining about long sharpening threads.

Hate to disagree, but doesn't it have to run at least two pages before it is a long sharpening thread?

It seems some get a little edgy over sharpening threads...

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Oh, Lord, won’tcha buy me a Shapton Glass Stone?
I sharpen with sandpaper, and feel so alone.
The cool kids all mock me whenever I tell
That paper is cheaper and does just as well.
And it never will shatter if it happens to fall
And I don’t need to soak it, a few drops, that’s all.
I never did buy Naniwa nor Nagura
It’s already flat, of that I am shura
But still, gracious Lord, I must make amends
I must find a way to conform to the trends
And also impress all my sharpening friends.

This was great Doug! Thanks for the grins! (I too heard Joplin's voice as I read it.)

[Jeff Heath]

Oh, Lord, won’tcha buy me a Shapton Glass Stone?
I sharpen with sandpaper, and feel so alone.
The cool kids all mock me whenever I tell
That paper is cheaper and does just as well.
And it never will shatter if it happens to fall
And I don’t need to soak it, a few drops, that’s all.
I never did buy Naniwa nor Nagura
It’s already flat, of that I am shura
But still, gracious Lord, I must make amends
I must find a way to conform to the trends
And also impress all my sharpening friends.

Extremely creative! Well done, sir.

[steven c newman]

Sharpening threads beat watching Saturday Night Live.....and....threads even have commercials....

[Dave Anderson NH]

Well done Doug!!!!! I'm old enough that I, like others, heard Janis after the first line.

My only interest in sharpening threads is that they stay civil. As a moderator having to read or at least skim them has become painful after all these years. My philosophy is that there is sharp enough, and then there is sharpening as fetish.

[John Stankus]

Yes. And be sure to use only Hunts ketchup on you water stones.

But wait I thought Hunts was catsup not ketchup, or is that you need to search for that rare sharpening elixir :)

[Jim Koepke]

But wait I thought Hunts was catsup not ketchup, or is that you need to search for that rare sharpening elixir :)

For me it is just hoping to get a little catchup on all my projects.

That probably means not sitting here reading another sharpening thread.

jtk

[Andrew Seemann]

It's funny how different hobbies all have their flash points.

Neanders their sharpening and steels, and maybe one notch less, the "correct" order to buy new (or used) planes.

Normites have their sawstops.

Saying "glue" to a bunch of instrument makers is more dangerous than yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Model train people argue between "Rivet Counters" and "Operators"

HIP (Historically inclined performance) musicians will argue for pages whether a Bach meant a note to be flatted or not. And don't get them started on temperament. And then the arguments on how "accurate" the instrument needs to be constructed, good grief, sometimes I wonder if those people think that a proper instrument can only be made in a small cramped workshop in a city with no sewers using only 16th century tools while suffering the effects of plague. And then there are the "magic, lost-to-time" finishes. And then the fact that in a blindfold test, the reality is almost no one can tell a centuries old Stradivarius from a new violin from a competent maker.

Guitar players and their poly vs nitro arguments, and then that bit about tonewood.

Craft brewers trying to make a beer made out of nothing but hops.

Gardeners and the color red.

Wine aficionados. . . enough said

I guess we all need our little parts of the world to carve out our passions. It makes the routineness of day-by-day a little more bearable:)

[Patrick Chase]

My philosophy is that there is sharp enough, and then there is sharpening as fetish.

You do realize that you're basically running a "fetish forum" here right? I mean the whole concept of "Neanderthal" isn't so far from "trekkie" or "furry" to begin with, and then you throw in sharpening...

Thanks for doing a tireless and excellent job of keeping it all tamped down.

[Doug Hepler]

Dave -- to quote a forgotten sage, the arguments are vicious because the stakes are so low

Andrew -- a great perspective. Goes well with the motorcycle post above.

Doug

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would have to say that this has so far been the most enjoyable sharpening thread I've read in 15 years here.

[Joe Mioux]

The more I learn, the less I realize I know.

that pretty much sums up all my woodworking endeavors, including sharpening.

[Tom Stenzel]

You do realize that you're basically running a "fetish forum" here right? I mean the whole concept of "Neanderthal" isn't so far from "trekkie" or "furry" to begin with, and then you throw in sharpening...

Thanks for doing a tireless and excellent job of keeping it all tamped down.

Now you're just starting tribble.

Frankly I find the tone of this discussion rather abrasive. And grinding.

Anybody else with some cutting remarks?

-Tom

[Patrick Chase]

Dave -- to quote a forgotten sage, the arguments are vicious because the stakes are so low

Huh, I'd always thought that was Henry Kissinger (in the context of academic politics), but it appears to have been around for a very long time (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/08/18/acad-politics/).

[steven c newman]

And..just what is the Trouble with Tribbles...anyway..

[Mel Fulks]

And..just what is the Trouble with Tribbles...anyway..

one of the less realistic TV STAR TREK episodes. I would have called it "germs in space cotton candy"

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Now you're just starting tribble.

Frankly I find the tone of this discussion rather abrasive. And grinding.

Anybody else with some cutting remarks?

-Tom

It doesn't matter how you slice it, it's still a topic for the sharpest of us. I prefer this to dull conversation. I mainly come here to hone my skills so I can be a cut above the rest. Anyway, I should get to the point here- I love to discuss sharpening. It can be an edgy subject, but it gives us sharper minds. I will stop now before I compound things any further.

[Derek Cohen]

I would have to say that this has so far been the most enjoyable sharpening thread I've read in 15 years here.

Dave, I echo this. I've been away from the Internet for a while (on Waiheke Island, off the coast of Auckland) and unable to reply.Lots of fun responses.

Doug, that was absolutely brilliant! Did you write it?

And James, never .. never let go your passion for Porsche!

Regards from Auckland (soon on the way to the airport and back to Perth)

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

And James, never .. never let go your passion for Porsche!

Nah, transfer your loyalties to a maker that knows where the engine is supposed to go.

PS - Yes Derek, I remember that your Porsche has its engine in the right place. Now if only they would put their best powerplants in the Boxster/Cayman platform...

[Todd Stock]

Kinda waiting for someone to start the thread about the thread commenting on sharpening threads...

[John C Cox]

There is something about a sharpening thread to which everyone feels compelled to contribute. Young and old, amateur and professional, newbie and experienced. And no one seems to read what others have written - they are in too much of a rush to put their thoughts down for others to read and applaud.

That's why I like chisel alloy and hardness posts instead... They are so much more productive. ;) ;)

Honestly, sharpening threads are part of the fun... Rather than shutting down discussion of sharpening - The challenge is reigning in folks before they cross the line from "lighthearted forum banter" to angry insults and somebody being banned.... I know our poor Mods spend their fair share of time on this...

We aren't alone here with our love of these sort of threads... You can literally bring violin luthiers to blows if you quietly whisper the word "Varnish" in a crowded room... And go talk about how Brazilian Rosewood is horribly overrated to guitar guys... ;) ;)

[James Waldron]

[snip]

And James, never .. never let go your passion for Porsche!

Regards from Auckland (soon on the way to the airport and back to Perth)

Derek

Not my passion, Derek, just the cars. Not enough room for 12 foot and sometimes 16 foot 8/4 (plantation) teak and various cedars. My pick-em up does that quite nicely when needed. Never worked with a roof rack on my Porsches through the years.

[Doug Hepler]

Doug, that was absolutely brilliant! Did you write it?

Derek

Thank you. Yes, we did -- Janis and me and Bobby MacGee-yuh

Humor(?) aside, you made some good points. The ones who needed to read them probably skipped over them . . .

Doug

[Brian Holcombe]

I propose a two drink minimum for sharpening threads.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I propose a two drink minimum for sharpening threads.

I'll drink to that. You didn't say how big of a glass I could use.
383530

[Alan Schwabacher]

This isn't a sharpening thread: it's not a thread about sharpening, but about sharpening threads. While people have quite varying opinions about sharpening, their opinions about sharpening threads align much better.

[Matt Lau]

It's funny how different hobbies all have their flash points.

Neanders their sharpening and steels, and maybe one notch less, the "correct" order to buy new (or used) planes.

Normites have their sawstops.

Saying "glue" to a bunch of instrument makers is more dangerous than yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Model train people argue between "Rivet Counters" and "Operators"

HIP (Historically inclined performance) musicians will argue for pages whether a Bach meant a note to be flatted or not. And don't get them started on temperament. And then the arguments on how "accurate" the instrument needs to be constructed, good grief, sometimes I wonder if those people think that a proper instrument can only be made in a small cramped workshop in a city with no sewers using only 16th century tools while suffering the effects of plague. And then there are the "magic, lost-to-time" finishes. And then the fact that in a blindfold test, the reality is almost no one can tell a centuries old Stradivarius from a new violin from a competent maker.

Guitar players and their poly vs nitro arguments, and then that bit about tonewood.

Craft brewers trying to make a beer made out of nothing but hops.

Gardeners and the color red.

Wine aficionados. . . enough said

I guess we all need our little parts of the world to carve out our passions. It makes the routineness of day-by-day a little more bearable:)



Hey, I sorta resemble that remark! ;P

However, change it to Nitro vs French Polish, and I'm in.
And you're totally right on the glue.

[Matt Lau]

Actually, I appreciate the sharpening threads since I don't have much in the way of guidance.
Sometimes, for me it's a matter of knowing what grit progression is right...or that trying to sharpen HSS M2 steel on a King stone is a lesson in futility (DAMKIT; wore out that stone after 2 hours of fruitless grinding).

Thanks, guys.

[Steven Mikes]

I actually appreciated all the sharpening threads too. For a newbie just getting started without an experienced teacher, all the choices and methods are pretty overwhelming. It helps to read arguments about which is better. Even though the conclusion in the end is obviously that each way is valid, one ends up learning about all the advantages and disadvantages of each.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

But seriously, I LOVE, and I mean LOVE sharpening threads. Because I'm getting pretty darn good at sharpening and it's because good people here have been willing to share their knowledge gained over decades of trial and error as well as their knowledge gained from elders who have shared what they learned before them..

I am now sharpening my kitchen knives on my water stones with amazing results. The last time I cut myself slicing vegetables, I didn't feel a thing.

Drat, I have been doing this all wrong.... I thought that I was supposed to sharpen my vegetables on the water stones..... And that explains what looks like Ketchup on my stones.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'll drink to that. You didn't say how big of a glass I could use.
383530

This thread is now headed in the right direction.

[steven c newman]

Some might prefer a heavier subject?

383578
Good for what "Ales" ya....

[Brian Holcombe]

A fine choice indeed!!

[Dave Anderson NH]

Watch it Steve Newman that stuff could turn you into a rather stout person.

[Patrick Chase]

Watch it Steve Newman that stuff could turn you into a rather stout person.

Does this forum have a policy against putrid puns? If not can we add one?

[Brian Holcombe]

It’s ok to shoot the archduke in each and every sharpening thread, so I’m sure puns are a fine.

[steven c newman]

"A civilized weapon, for a more civilized time.."
383701
Perhaps the Duke would approve?

[Justin Ludwig]

Oh, Lord, won’tcha buy me a Shapton Glass Stone?
I sharpen with sandpaper, and feel so alone.
The cool kids all mock me whenever I tell
That paper is cheaper and does just as well.
And it never will shatter if it happens to fall
And I don’t need to soak it, a few drops, that’s all.
I never did buy Naniwa nor Nagura
It’s already flat, of that I am shura
But still, gracious Lord, I must make amends
I must find a way to conform to the trends
And also impress all my sharpening friends.

So well written it makes me want to change my sharpening method.

[Patrick Chase]

It’s ok to shoot the archduke in each and every sharpening thread, so I’m sure puns are a fine.

I'll just be changing my handle to "Gavrilo Princip" now...

[Matt Lau]

Hey Derek,

Ironically, it was your sharpening posts that got me into woodworking.
When I started, there was very little good information...people recommended rubbing a carbide rod to sharpen knives for goodness sake!

Do you have any standouts? I think that you've tried more different systems than all of us:
Diamond grinder + ceramic stones
Water stones
Oil stones?
Diamond films on plexiglas (I may copy you on this)
Strop.
Etc.

Only maybe David Weaver has more stuff on sharpening...or George Wilson.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'll just be changing my handle to "Gavrilo Princip" now...

:D :D

After listening to the full series of Hardcore history and of course discussing the interesting findings, my wife will no longer engage me on the topic. She knows to avoid key lead-ins.

[Patrick Chase]

:D :D

After listening to the full series of Hardcore history and of course discussing the interesting findings, my wife will no longer engage me on the topic. She knows to avoid key lead-ins.

I tried to work in a sharpening analogy to Black Hand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Serbia)) (maybe "muddy hand", for those perpetually covered in waterstone swarf?) but just couldn't make it work in the limited time I had at work today.

[Brian Holcombe]

Young Bosnia is equally difficult, but we might be able to define a sharpening no-mans land.

[Simon MacGowen]

There is something about a sharpening thread to which everyone feels compelled to contribute. Young and old, amateur and professional, newbie and experienced. And no one seems to read what others have written - they are in too much of a rush to put their

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]Derek

Doesn't this apply to MOST forum discussions regardless of the topic?

At least a few would be more honest by starting their inputs with something like "I apologize if some has already..." signalling they did not bother to read all the resoonses in the thread.

Simon

[Terry Beadle]

Janice Joplin must be tappin' her toes in heaven! Great lyrics!