New to woodworking, hand tools and sawmill creek- some advice on planes?

[Alex Liebert]

Hey Neaders! I've been poking around on this forum for some time and clearly there's some very knowledgeable people here. I'd love to get your input on some things I'm stuck on.

As a hobby I restore and refinish vintage furniture (Some recent work here (https://imgur.com/a/BOpR6) and here (https://imgur.com/a/5YIc9).) I'm pretty good with finishing, veneer replacements, cosmetic repairs but I've always want to build my own designs so for the past month I've been taking a try at it.

I'm learning from the internet, and there's an endless amount of information but it's daunting to learn- trial and error gets very expensive, and I find myself wasting a lot of money on things that don't work for me. I wish I knew a woodworker who could show me a few things in person, but classes are in the thousands of dollars around here and the guys I asked about private lessons are all booked up.

My project is primarily an abstract organic shape. It seemed the spokeshave was the tool for job but I was intimidated by the notion that vintage hand tools need expert tuning and fettling, and new ones are so poorly made they need just as much to correct machining errors. I started out working with rasps, but I got very lucky and picked up a Stanley 151 from an experienced woodworker's estate sale. It was a revelation- it was tuned and sharp, and sculpting with it is the most enjoyable woodworking thing I've done so far. This is where the joy is for me and I very much want to get experienced with primarily hand work. I also bought a $10 Record 151 at a flea market that will not cut- I'm using it to learn to sharpen because when the Stanley gets dull I'm going to be out of luck.

The basis of my project is a flat panel "blank" that I then need to sculpt. I purchased poplar from my local hardwood dealer, and I paid for their milling service, thinking I could get flat, square and true lumber this way- and learn to true it myself on a future project. The guys there think I'm a little dumb because I ask so many questions, and though they assured me the milling would leave me with flat boards where all corners were at 90 degrees, I learned that they do not joint the faces under any circumstance so you end up with a consistent thickness of boards with all the bow, twist, and cup from the raw lumber intact. (Maybe I should've known this, I'm still figuring out how things work over there- including some confusing pricing policies [I understand how board feet work, but they also have separate charges by the linear foot, the pricing changes based on who I talk to and I never got an explanation I can understand].)

Without a way to joint edges, I relied on very carefully shifting the boards around to find a place where their rip saw made a square enough cut to edge glue. Because the lumber was warped to begin with, I still have misalignment which I corrected by eye with a card scraper.

Since I can't purchase lumber milled true (and I called around, local cabinet shops will charge me minimum $300 to run a few feet of board over a power jointer), and I don't have the space, dust and noise collection, or interest in big power tools- I'd really like to be able to joint boards with hand planes.

I bought a flea market stanley no 8 (early 1900s) and a stanley 4 (thought it was well-cared for vintage but turned out to be a recently made one.) The #8 sole is quite concave- 1/100th of an inch high in the center. While I figure out lapping that I've been trying to get the #4 working to joint my boards, but it's in bad shape. I can go into detail if need be but the frog bed is misshapen beyond just not being flat and the adjustment mechanisms fit together quite poorly (I compared to the vintage stanley and it has none of these problems.)

Maybe I could get it working, but without having ever used a good working hand plane except the spokeshave, I'm really shooting in the dark here. I'm thinking of biting the bullet and getting a Veritas, at least I'll know for sure it works as designed. Then I can have a basis for trying to fix up vintage planes later. But I have some questions about that before I buy, would value any feedback from you guys!

I'm looking at the low angle jointer. I've read many threads here about the nuances and pros and cons of bevel up, but truth be told they are less expensive with fewer moving parts which makes it a little easier for me to buy as a first plane. All my needs are jointing for now (I'm sure smoothing with a plane would be a thousand times more fun than sandpaper, but that's for another day.) Poplar is the only wood I'll be working until I'm much more experienced. What I'm not sure of is whether the 37 degree cutting angle is going to be a problem cutting that (most of the marketing focuses on how great it is for end grain and how great the higher angles are for interlocking grain.) I don't know if 37 degrees will be a problem for straight grained fairly soft poplar, and if it is whether rehoning the blade at 33 degrees would be okay.

I also am struggling to sharpen- I've attempted to sharpen the Record 151 spokeshave blade, and the contemporary stanley 4 plane blade. I'm doing "scary sharp", with the General 809 jig, the highest grit I have is 3000. I can get the blades sharper than they were, sharp enough to shave my arm hairs a little but not easily. Sharp enough to plane pine but not poplar. I've practiced quite a few hours but at this point I think I'm just getting really good at producing mediocre results and I'm not sure what to change. Maybe the glass is flexing, maybe the jig's questionable ability to keep the iron straight, maybe I just need higher grits- I can't figure it out. I'm ready to give up and buy more expensive jigs or sharpening media, but it's another investment and I don't know where exactly my problem lies. Maybe this is another area where if I could see an experienced person do it just once it would be a simple fix, but it's hard to get that from Youtube. I don't want to give up and I'm ready to work more or spend more, I just don't know what direction to go in.

Sorry for being long winded! Any advice much appreciated. If I could just get to a point where I have a plane I know works correctly so I can start learning to joint edges with it I'll be so happy.

[Ken Parris]

If you could share your location with us, maybe someone is close enough to pass along advice. Woodworkers love to share their experiences.

Ken

[Alex Liebert]

If you could share your location with us, maybe someone is close enough to pass along advice. Woodworkers love to share their experiences.

Ken

That would be great. I'd love to buy someone a beer or lunch and talk about if they're near by. I'm in San Francisco.

[Ken Parris]

Guess I am not your answer, your a long way from East Tennessee. But a lot of guys near you, let see who shows up.

Ken

[Dave Parkis]

There some members here in your area, but I would also check to see if there are any woodworking clubs near enough to join.

[Alex Liebert]

There some members here in your area, but I would also check to see if there are any woodworking clubs near enough to join.

Good point. The local one seems to meet about 2 and a half hours from here but maybe I should go and see if I meet any people who live closer.

My post was probably way too long too, let me see if I can make some shorter questions that are easier to answer online.

[David Bassett]

... I'm in San Francisco.

You should update your profile, so your location will show with your posts.

I know of (& a little about) a couple resources in your area.

First the folks at The Crucible (https://thecrucible.org/) are great. I don't have experience with their Woodshop, but they offer Woodworking Classes (https://thecrucible.org/shop/?filter_class-department-course=woodworking). One of their weekend intro's would get you plugged into the local resources and some basic skills and exposure to tools. (Plus they host the annual local Lie-Nielsen Tool event each year.)

Another, very new, resource in your area is TheShop.build (https://theshop.build/). They are brand new and I have no experience with them, but they're growing out of the ashes of the TechShop site which had a strong woodworking community and provided good access to both large tools and networking opportunities.

[Alex Liebert]

Here's detail of what I'm doing for sharpening, in case I'm doing something obviously wrong:

I use a 14" glass cabinet door. Underneathe it is a length of anti-slip mat meant for rugs. Under that is my sturdy smooth kitchen counter. I have spray glued 220 paper to the glass to hold other papers steady and I place the paper I use on top of it.

The plane blade back was far from flat when I started and had no sign of ever being sharpened. I started at 100 grit and did quite a bit of work to get to the point where lapping it scratched the whole surface (the center was low to begin with.) Worked progressively up through 3000 grit until the bottom inch was reflective like a mirror. (Here's a picture: https://i.redd.it/dhvey0ml4yp01.jpg)

I put the blade in the "General 809" jig. I do my best with a combination square to square the blade. I drew a 25 degree angle with a protractor for reference to set it using my eye, and the existing bevel, for confirmation.

The first time I had to start low on the bevel to eliminate some nicks. Then I progressed again through 3000.

End result is a shiny reflective blade that doesn't seem to cut very well in poplar but it is fine on pine.

So not sure what to change: The jig is imprecise and may not hold the blade as flat as a better one. So could be that though others can use it I need a fancier jig.

Maybe it's bad to use the base 220 paper instead of gluing each new piece, but I have seen videos of guys doing this and they end up sharp.

Maybe the glass is flexing in some way. It could be thicker and I don't know for sure if it is "float glass".

Maybe 3000 grit isn't high enough?

Those are all my best guesses.

[Alex Liebert]

You should update your profile, so your location will show with your posts.

I know of (& a little about) a couple resources in your area.

First the folks at The Crucible (https://thecrucible.org/) are great. I don't have experience with their Woodshop, but they offer Woodworking Classes (https://thecrucible.org/shop/?filter_class-department-course=woodworking). One of their weekend intro's would get you plugged into the local resources and some basic skills and exposure to tools. (Plus they host the annual local Lie-Nielsen Tool event each year.)

Another, very new, resource in your area is TheShop.build (https://theshop.build/). They are brand new and I have no experience with them, but they're growing out of the ashes of the TechShop site which had a strong woodworking community and provided good access to both large tools and networking opportunities.

Thanks David! I've been to the crucible, it's a cool place (didn't know about the woodworking classes though!) I guess for the price of a new veritas plane I could take one of their classes and buy the plane in the future.

New tech shop looks cool but not at all hand tools focused, maybe monthly membership is worth opportunity to meet people.

[David Bassett]

Thanks David! ...

You're welcome & welcome here!



... New tech shop looks cool but not at all hand tools focused, maybe monthly membership is worth opportunity to meet people.

As I said no experience, but assuming they're carrying on like TechShop, "not at all hand tools focused" is a massive understatement. :) OTOH- sometimes power tools are useful and an active community can be good for pointers. I was only in the TechShop SF woodshop once, for a class, but the instructor was a regular and did have his own hand tools (he lugged in a backpack on BART!!?!) and seemed very knowledgeable.

ETA: also Woodcraft, in San Carlos, down the peninsula, offers classes. Last I checked their website they'd teamed up with one of the local community colleges. They have (some) tools in stock, most of their staff seems pretty knowledgeable, and they have some nice wood (at a price, think last minute extra piece mostly.) If you catch the right guy you can get really good advice.

[Andrew Seemann]

Here would be my advice. Slow down. Don't buy any more planes or jigs. Figure out how to get that #4 sharpened. Find a local woodworker who can show you how to sharpen the blade and tune it up (if possible or confirm that it is junk). There have to be thousands of woodworkers in the Bay Area. A waterstone might be easier than sandpaper, but the sandpaper should work fine. After you get the #4 to work sharpen the #8. Don't worry about the 1/100; it probably came from the factory that way. It should work good enough for now. If you get it figured out and tuned up, and it still planes concave, worry about that then. Keep your eyes open for a better #4, as well as an old #5, and a block plane. You can get a brand new expensive plane, but it won't do you any good until you learn to sharpen it. Might as well figure that out on the planes you have first.

[Alex Liebert]

Here would be my advice. Slow down. Don't buy any more planes or jigs. Figure out how to get that #4 sharpened. Find a local woodworker who can show you how to sharpen the blade and tune it up (if possible or confirm that it is junk). There have to be thousands of woodworkers in the Bay Area. A waterstone might be easier than sandpaper, but the sandpaper should work fine. After you get the #4 to work sharpen the #8. Don't worry about the 1/100; it probably came from the factory that way. It should work good enough for now. If you get it figured out and tuned up, and it still planes concave, worry about that then. Keep your eyes open for a better #4, as well as an old #5, and a block plane. You can get a brand new expensive plane, but it won't do you any good until you learn to sharpen it. Might as well figure that out on the planes you have first.

Thanks Andrew. I agree with that sentiment. Whether I end up with a new plane or an old plane I need to be able to sharpen it.

Waterstones seem like another thing that needs to be checked for flatness, adding more variables, so sandpaper for now.

Let me ask you this while I have you then - currently I'm doing the back of the blade to completion, then the low grit on the bevel til I feel a complete burr. Polish through high grits after that and I remove the burr from the back at the very end. Anything wrong with this? I've seen people take out the burr after each grit on the bevel.

[Andrew Seemann]

For a plane blade you need the back polished flat first. But just the end, that is the only part that cuts, you really don't need to have it polished super well past about a half inch. A half inch of polished back should last you years.

For the bevel you do the coarse grit to get the main bevel set, then you raise the angle a little bit so you are only sharpening the very edge. For this part you start at a kind of fine grit because you are only removing a little material. When you get an even sheen with all the scratches from the coarse grit taken out (just at the edge; you don't have to worry further up the bevel) most of the burr will be gone or close to falling off. At that point, move to a finer grit (same angle) and so on till you reach the finest one you are going to use. At that point the burr should be completely gone.

When you resharpen, you start at the pretty fine grit again at the same angle as before, you don't need to do the main bevel again for a while. That is why you only want to remove just the edge of the angle, each resharpening it gets a little bigger until finally it starts taking too long, and then you regrind the main bevel again.

This is much easier to demonstrate than explain:) It isn't complicated or any magic secret, it's just learning to do the right things in the right order and practicing them over and over until you get the hang of it.

[Alex Liebert]

For a plane blade you need the back polished flat first. But just the end, that is the only part that cuts, you really don't need to have it polished super well past about a half inch. A half inch of polished back should last you years.

For the bevel you do the coarse grit to get the main bevel set, then you raise the angle a little bit so you are only sharpening the very edge. For this part you start at a kind of fine grit because you are only removing a little material. When you get an even sheen with all the scratches from the coarse grit taken out (just at the edge; you don't have to worry further up the bevel) most of the burr will be gone or close to falling off. At that point, move to a finer grit (same angle) and so on till you reach the finest one you are going to use. At that point the burr should be completely gone.

When you resharpen, you start at the pretty fine grit again at the same angle as before, you don't need to do the main bevel again for a while. That is why you only want to remove just the edge of the angle, each resharpening it gets a little bigger until finally it starts taking too long, and then you regrind the main bevel again.

This is much easier to demonstrate than explain:) It isn't complicated or any magic secret, it's just learning to do the right things in the right order and practicing them over and over until you get the hang of it.

Thanks, I have not attempted the microbevel. Other than that it's obviously taking me much longer to polish the entire bevel, is there any reason polishing the entire bevel would be more prone to error?

[Andrew Seemann]

It's hard to polish the entire bevel without rounding it, even with a guide. Too much rounding can end up not giving you enough of a clearance angle at the cutting edge, which causes the blade to ride on the wood rather than cut.

That said there really isn't a reason to polish the entire bevel. On a normal #4, the bevel is down, so it is basically a clearance angle. The top (back) of the blade does the actual cutting, which is why you want the end of it polished. The underside doesn't touch the wood, only the edge. The only reason to go up a grit on the main bevel is if you used such a coarse grit on the main bevel that it is causing problems with the micro bevel.

You do the "microbevel" to make that cutting edge as sharp as can be. The reason to make it small is that you need to resharpen it fairly often and you want it to be fast. For example, when I need to touch up my plane blade, I hit the microlevel on the 4000 grit waterstone free hand for maybe 10-30 seconds depending on how big the microlevel has gotten, hit it on the honing wheel quick, put it back into the plane and adjust it, and go back to work. The whole process takes maybe 5 minutes.

[Alex Liebert]

It's hard to polish the entire bevel without rounding it, even with a guide. Too much rounding can end up not giving you enough of a clearance angle at the cutting edge, which causes the blade to ride on the wood rather than cut..

That's extremely helpful info and makes sense! I'll try the microbevel tomorrow. Jig has nothing in the way of fine adjustment so I'll try putting a business card under the back roller and see what happens.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Alex and welcome to the Creek.

One of the problems with scary sharp is the sandpaper can wrinkle ahead of the blade if it isn't well fastened. If the surface on which it rests is flexible that is more trouble.

My residence was in the SF Bay area about 10 years ago. My knowledge of the current situation is likely not up to par. There is a Rockler store in Concord if that isn't too far of a trip for you. You might call them to see what help they may have.

http://www.rockler.com/concord-store

Your #8 sounds like it needs a little lapping. My solution was to purchase a 4' piece of scrap granite from a monument maker (tombstone carver). You may have to go to Colma to find someone in that business.

Here is some links to articles/posts with essential basics on hand planes:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/handplane-basics

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/CoarseMediumFine.pdf

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076-Getting-Started-With-Hand-Planes

In the Neanderthal Haven archives are some articles on rehabilitating and using hand planes:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

If you lose this link look in the Neanderthal sticky threads at the top of the listing for Neanderthal Haven.

For rehabbing old planes an old post of mine:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114373-Fettling-A-Plane-from-Junker-to-Jointer

Another by Bob Smalser:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?5867-Rehabilitating-Old-Planes-(Big-File)

There are many other useful links on planes to read on the page.

The sandpaper grit you mentioned, 3000, should be sufficient to get a usable edge. If the bevel isn't flat or hollow ground you may have a clearance problem. It only takes a little bit of rounding on the bevel to keep it from cutting.

Sharpening is one of the biggest challenges to woodworking.

jtk

[Andrew Seemann]

Admittedly I don't know what kind of jig you are using, but i suspect that it will need more than a business card for the micro bevel, probably closer to an eighth of an inch or more. I actually don't know what I set my micro bevels at either because I hone freehand, but I suspect it is around a degree or two.

[Jim Koepke]

Something came to my attention after rereading this thread:


I also am struggling to sharpen- I've attempted to sharpen the Record 151 spokeshave blade, and the contemporary stanley 4 plane blade. I'm doing "scary sharp", with the General 809 jig, the highest grit I have is 3000. I can get the blades sharper than they were, sharp enough to shave my arm hairs a little but not easily. Sharp enough to plane pine but not poplar. I've practiced quite a few hours but at this point I think I'm just getting really good at producing mediocre results and I'm not sure what to change. Maybe the glass is flexing, maybe the jig's questionable ability to keep the iron straight, maybe I just need higher grits- I can't figure it out. I'm ready to give up and buy more expensive jigs or sharpening media, but it's another investment and I don't know where exactly my problem lies. Maybe this is another area where if I could see an experienced person do it just once it would be a simple fix, but it's hard to get that from Youtube. I don't want to give up and I'm ready to work more or spend more, I just don't know what direction to go in.

383314 The General 809

Randomly throwing money at this situation is not likely to improve your result. Your best investment may be to purchase a stone like a Norton 4000/8000 combination water stone. This should get the edge sharp enough beyond the 3000 grit sandpaper.

From a later post:


I use a 14" glass cabinet door. Underneathe it is a length of anti-slip mat meant for rugs. Under that is my sturdy smooth kitchen counter. I have spray glued 220 paper to the glass to hold other papers steady and I place the paper I use on top of it.


This is likely part of your problem. The papers need to be supported and adhered flat on the glass or other surface being used. If the paper can bubble or wrinkle even the slightest ahead of the edge it will round the edge, also known as dubbing. Some people use only a pull stroke with scary sharp. The paper can still buckle and dub the edge. A similar problem can occur with excessive stropping.

Another one of my long held beliefs is to first learn to get to a good edge before trying to fix what isn't working with micro bevels, back bevels, cambers and other tricks. Keep it simple until you better able to produce a good edge consistently.

One possibility is that you may be able to find a hardware store like Cole on 4th Street near Mission that has a bulletin board where you could post your desire to meet other woodworkers who could teach you to sharpen. They may even have someone there that has experience. It has been more than a decade since my having set foot in that store, but back then there seemed to be a few very knowledgable people working there.

Sometimes you have to ask around to obtain what you are looking to find.

jtk

[Alex Liebert]

Something came to my attention after rereading this thread:


This is likely part of your problem. The papers need to be supported and adhered flat on the glass or other surface being used. If the paper can bubble or wrinkle even the slightest ahead of the edge it will round the edge, also known as dubbing. Some people use only a pull stroke with scary sharp. The paper can still buckle and dub the edge. A similar problem can occur with excessive stropping.

Another one of my long held beliefs is to first learn to get to a good edge before trying to fix what isn't working with micro bevels, back bevels, cambers and other tricks. Keep it simple until you better able to produce a good edge consistently.

One possibility is that you may be able to find a hardware store like Cole on 4th Street near Mission that has a bulletin board where you could post your desire to meet other woodworkers who could teach you to sharpen. They may even have someone there that has experience. It has been more than a decade since my having set foot in that store, but back then there seemed to be a few very knowledgable people working there.

Sometimes you have to ask around to obtain what you are looking to find.

jtk

Thanks Jim! Actually I believe it was finding your plane rehab threads here as a Google result that brought me to discover sawmill creek in the first place!

Will consider the waterstones mentioned next, but it sounds like I should focus on getting sharper with just the 3000 max grit I have for now. Once I go with waterstones I need another stone to flatten my waterstones right? (I'd also like to be able to work without a bucket of water or sink if possible.)

Your point about the paper setup seems very plausible to me. My bevel and back look like mirrors so they are polished, but an inadvertant and hard to see with the eye rounding would explain them not being sharp despite of this.

Will check out the Cole Valley bulletin board. I usually go to Roberts so didn't think of Cole Valley (Roberts is pricey but the staff are all knowledgeable and have gave me great help in general projects in the past before so that's where I usually bring my local business.)

Also thanks for the tip on gravestone places. I actually have a quite thick and long piece of glass I acquired for lapping, but because it's so long it can still flex if the table under it isn't flat and I don't have many 4 foot long tables. None of my work tables are flat, and my harbor freight "woodworking" bench is the biggest but least flat I have- a visually observable sag and twist in it. In fact improving that is on my list of uses for a jointer plane once I get one working.

(Incidentally Lowes SF website says they stock smooth granite tiles, but when you go there they don't. There are 4 tile / stone places across the street, but they all said no to having granite tiles, granite samples, or granite offcuts.)

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Jim! Actually I believe it was finding your plane rehab threads here as a Google result that brought me to discover sawmill creek in the first place!

You are welcome, glad to hear it may have helped.


Once I go with waterstones I need another stone to flatten my waterstones right? (I'd also like to be able to work without a bucket of water or sink if possible.)

Waterstones can be flattened with sandpaper on a flat tile.

In my shop there isn't running water. Water is stored in an old milk jug and a spray bottle. When the stones need soaking a plastic shoe storage container works fine for me. Some water stones only need a spritz of water to do their job.


I actually have a quite thick and long piece of glass I acquired for lapping, but because it's so long it can still flex if the table under it isn't flat and I don't have many 4 foot long tables.

For a bench to hold your piece of glass a saw horse design works fine:

383326

Here is a post of mine on building such a thing:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?146777

My recollection is the horse for the granite slab used a 2X6.

A few points to remember is to inset the legs far enough so they do not extend past the end of the top.

jtk

[Alex Liebert]

I've got a naive question, is there a specific property of granite- hardness or flatness- that makes it superior to quartzite or man made stones for this purpose? I was in Portrero by the warehouses the other day and stopped by a few guys selling their remnants, lots of unpolished granite (too textured), all polished stones were of some other composition...

[sean contenti]

I've got a naive question, is there a specific property of granite- hardness or flatness- that makes it superior to quartzite or man made stones for this purpose? I was in Portrero by the warehouses the other day and stopped by a few guys selling their remnants, lots of unpolished granite (too textured), all polished stones were of some other composition...

I am not a machinist nor a toolmaker. So there might be something I'm missing.

But as a geologist - I can't see anything other than, possibly, colour. A black granite might be easier to sight against bright metal than the lighter color of most quartzites I've seen.

The two rocks have very similar hardness and density. The granite is an instrusive igneous deposit vs. the quartzite as metamorphosed sandstone - so your granite will have a large fraction of orthoclase and plagioclase feldspars that the quartzite will not. I'd actually expect the quartzite to be *more* resistant to chemical action, due to the lack of those feldspars.

There might be some difference in the tensile modulus, but I can't imagine it would come into play during use.

My guess? Whoever started manufacturing such slabs for sale had a nearby supply of granite, and it simply became the standard that way.

I'd be very interested to hear if I'm off base with all my musing...

EDIT - I said colour, but then again Starrett's trademark is the pink granite. So maybe not.

[Alex Liebert]

I am not a machinist nor a toolmaker. So there might be something I'm missing.

But as a geologist - I can't see anything other than, possibly, colour. A black granite might be easier to sight against bright metal than the lighter color of most quartzites I've seen.

The two rocks have very similar hardness and density. The granite is an instrusive igneous deposit vs. the quartzite as metamorphosed sandstone - so your granite will have a large fraction of orthoclase and plagioclase feldspars that the quartzite will not. I'd actually expect the quartzite to be *more* resistant to chemical action, due to the lack of those feldspars.

There might be some difference in the tensile modulus, but I can't imagine it would come into play during use.

My guess? Whoever started manufacturing such slabs for sale had a nearby supply of granite, and it simply became the standard that way.

I'd be very interested to hear if I'm off base with all my musing...

EDIT - I said colour, but then again Starrett's trademark is the pink granite. So maybe not.

Interesting! It seems that what we're supposed to be going for here is flatness- every bit of the polished surface being on the same geometric plane (When people discuss using glass for this, they talk about "float glass" being manufactured in some way that causes it to level)- so I wondered if something about the processes that polish / flatten granite stones are somehow superior to those used on manmade stones or other compositions.

[Andrew Seemann]

Nothing magic about float glass or granite. They just happen to be relatively accessible means of obtaining flat, strong, and hard. Cast iron table saw wings get used also, for the same reason.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting! It seems that what we're supposed to be going for here is flatness- every bit of the polished surface being on the same geometric plane (When people discuss using glass for this, they talk about "float glass" being manufactured in some way that causes it to level)- so I wondered if something about the processes that polish / flatten granite stones are somehow superior to those used on manmade stones or other compositions.

As it was explained to me, float glass is made by the liquid glass floating on liquid metal (tin?) whereas plate glass is made by being formed between rollers.

With granite, the process used to prepare the surface will determine if it is flat or wavy. Granite surface plates are sometimes a good buy from sources like Harbor Freight, Grizzly or other sellers, especially whey they have free shipping.

For many sharpening purposes as long as the surface looks decent when checked with a straight edge it is likely flat enough for most sharpening needs. If one is the type to get nit picky about 0.0001", then buy a certified granite inspection stone.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The basis of my project is a flat panel "blank" that I then need to sculpt. I purchased poplar from my local hardwood dealer, and I paid for their milling service, thinking I could get flat, square and true lumber this way- and learn to true it myself on a future project. The guys there think I'm a little dumb because I ask so many questions, and though they assured me the milling would leave me with flat boards where all corners were at 90 degrees, I learned that they do not joint the faces under any circumstance so you end up with a consistent thickness of boards with all the bow, twist, and cup from the raw lumber intact.

That's about right: Lumber dealers will typically cut and thickness-plane for you, but they won't joint. That means that any non-flatness on a face will simply be "copied" to the opposite face when the lumber is thickness-planed.

Out of curiosity, who's your hardwood dealer? In SF I would probably go with MacBeath on Oakdale. I mostly shop at their Berkeley location (I'm in Dublin).

If you want to try out tools and are willing to drive a bit you're welcome to drop by. I don't teach as I'm still very much a learner, but I have a decent selection of tools (7 spokeshaves in various configurations, for example, and easily >20 bench planes of various sorts including most of Lee Valley's line) and they're all at least sharp :-). I have a few different planes set up for roughing if you want to play with that: A 5 and a scrub both with very deep camber, and a 5-1/4W and a 6 with more moderate camber.

With respect to sharpening there are many many ways to do it. Probably the lowest-upfront-cost way to augment the solution you're using right now is to add some PSA-backed Aluminum-Oxide lapping films for polishing, as well as a leather strop if you don't have one already. The available 3000# sandpaper is largely Silicon Carbide ("wet-or-dry") and IMO Al-Oxide film works better and lasts longer (to the point where you will easily amortize the higher cost) for metalwork. High-grit SiC paper is better used for rubbing out finishes IMO.

[Steve Kaminska]

This is my first post here, but I believe I can finally contribute. I have been woodworking with hand tools for a bit under three years now, so I'm not much farther ahead of you in the learning curve.

One of my biggest struggles with sharpening was learning to feel for the wire edge that is formed during the process. I started out looking for it with a 10x magnifying glass, and eventually learned to feel it, first by catching the edge with my fingernail, and later by just rubbing my thumb over the edge. Once I could feel this edge, my sharpening ability got much better in a hurry, and consequently so did my woodworking.

Without this wire edge being formed, you aren't sharp, no matter what method you use.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Steve and a belated welcome to the Creek.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I use a 14" glass cabinet door. Underneathe it is a length of anti-slip mat meant for rugs. Under that is my sturdy smooth kitchen counter. I have spray glued 220 paper to the glass to hold other papers steady and I place the paper I use on top of it.

One potential issue with that is that if you do push strokes the loose paper may bunch up ahead of the edge and round it off. If you only pull it'll work OK.



The plane blade back was far from flat when I started and had no sign of ever being sharpened. I started at 100 grit and did quite a bit of work to get to the point where lapping it scratched the whole surface (the center was low to begin with.) Worked progressively up through 3000 grit until the bottom inch was reflective like a mirror. (Here's a picture: https://i.redd.it/dhvey0ml4yp01.jpg)

Nice job overall! You missed a corner, though, and that may cause shavings to catch in between the iron and cap iron. Given how small the dubbed corner is you might want to fix that by just grinding the edge back instead of continuing to flatten.



Maybe the glass is flexing in some way. It could be thicker and I don't know for sure if it is "float glass".

Almost all glass these days is float glass. What's more important is that it not be tempered, as tempered float glass can be very non-flat. Just check it with a straightedge, and don't worry about it if it's within a couple thousandths of an inch.



Maybe 3000 grit isn't high enough?
There will come a point in your development where #3000 isn't high enough, but that's not what's hurting you now. 3000 is plenty for the sort of "bulk shaping" work you describe, particularly in poplar.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks, I have not attempted the microbevel. Other than that it's obviously taking me much longer to polish the entire bevel, is there any reason polishing the entire bevel would be more prone to error?

It's not so much "prone to error" as a "waste of time". Each grit should remove all of the scratches from the previous grit[s], and doing that with an entire bevel to #3000 is an epic chore.

[Patrick Chase]

Will consider the waterstones mentioned next, but it sounds like I should focus on getting sharper with just the 3000 max grit I have for now. Once I go with waterstones I need another stone to flatten my waterstones right? (I'd also like to be able to work without a bucket of water or sink if possible.)

I mostly use waterstones, and I think they're a very sensible solution when you consider long-term economics, but if I were you I'd do exactly what you propose: Focus on getting what you have to work instead of lurching from system to system. As I said in another post I'd consider adding lapping films within your scary sharp setup. I also second others' suggestions to microbevel at the higher grits to focus the abrasives' work where it matters, at the edge and to use some 3M 709 or similar to stick your paper down to the glass.

[Patrick Chase]

I've got a naive question, is there a specific property of granite- hardness or flatness- that makes it superior to quartzite or man made stones for this purpose? I was in Portrero by the warehouses the other day and stopped by a few guys selling their remnants, lots of unpolished granite (too textured), all polished stones were of some other composition...

IMO the Wikipedia page for surface plates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_plate) covers this well.

[sean contenti]

IMO the Wikipedia page for surface plates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_plate) covers this well.

Huh. That's neat.

This:
Black granite is dominantly used in machine bases, granite accessories, and custom applications for its superior stiffness, excellent vibration dampening, and improved machinability. Quartz-bearing granite (usually pink, white, or grey) is often made thicker than black granite to provide equal load-bearing capabilities of the types of material used for surface plates as it is not as stiff as black granite.

Would suggest that this is wrong:


There might be some difference in the tensile modulus, but I can't imagine it would come into play during use.

Learned something today. There apparently *is* a meaningful difference in the Young's modulus, even at the scale we're talking about. That'll teach me to try and venture out of the soft rock world :D

[Alex Liebert]

This forum is great as all are you guys. I love this kind of discussion!

Let me step back and respond in no particular order to some of the information here.

Firstly, I'm not the type to obsess over any details that are imperceptible to the human eye. So even going out and buying a giant certified machinist's plate of some kind would not give me any pleasure in and of itself. But I have learned that I don't have a single accurate reference surface. I couldn't tell you how truly straight my straight edges are, but they aren't expensive. I bought two heavy duty 12" swanson speedsquares at one point, and removed from the plastic packaging they both are so bent in the middle section that they rock on a table. I have a collection of t-squares varying sizes for non-furniture projects, some of them pricey for art supplies, and none of them agree at what 90 degrees is and in fact the 48" wanders more than 1/16" inch from square over its length.

I did pick up some feeler guages at the flea market for $1, so I have them to play around with.

I restore furniture (but just started trying to build it from scratch obviously) so I have quite a few pieces of glass, mostly cabinet doors and dresser tops. I have the 14" square, approx 1/4" thick cabinet doors I was doing the scary sharp on. And I also have a 48" x 18" x 3/8" thick glass top I thought would be useful for sharpening but especially lapping the plane sole.

As an experiment, I cleaned the 48" glass thoroughly, cleaned the bottom of #8 plane thoroughly, and placed it on the glass. The .009 feel guage slips under the sole for most of its length, it stops a couple inches from both the toe and heel. This is consistent with the shape of the light I see peak through when I put a straightedge on the plane and hold it up to the light. It's convex (toe and heel are lower than center.)

I marked the side of the jointer plane with a sharpie at the points where the .009 feel guage stopped being able to go under. Then I moved it around at different angles and locations on the 48" glass top. Depending on orientation and position, the point where the guage stops penetrating changes. If the glass top was flat, this would not be possible.

Obviously I have to get the sharpening down before the flatness of that plane even matters. And I've never used it or one like it, but it seems to me- if the toe and heel are approx 1/100" lower than the mouth- if I were to run this plane across a perfectly flat and straight board edge, it would start cutting 1/100" deeper than when the toe end of the sole stats to engage the wood. And I would only care about that because edge gluing two boards in my goal here, and that's probably enough of a defect to make a difference in this case.

[Alex Liebert]

This is my first post here, but I believe I can finally contribute. I have been woodworking with hand tools for a bit under three years now, so I'm not much farther ahead of you in the learning curve.

One of my biggest struggles with sharpening was learning to feel for the wire edge that is formed during the process. I started out looking for it with a 10x magnifying glass, and eventually learned to feel it, first by catching the edge with my fingernail, and later by just rubbing my thumb over the edge. Once I could feel this edge, my sharpening ability got much better in a hurry, and consequently so did my woodworking.

Without this wire edge being formed, you aren't sharp, no matter what method you use.

Thanks! To make sure I'm not missing any terminology- a wire edge and a burr are one and the same?

[Alex Liebert]

That's about right: Lumber dealers will typically cut and thickness-plane for you, but they won't joint. That means that any non-flatness on a face will simply be "copied" to the opposite face when the lumber is thickness-planed.

Out of curiosity, who's your hardwood dealer? In SF I would probably go with MacBeath on Oakdale. I mostly shop at their Berkeley location (I'm in Dublin).

If you want to try out tools and are willing to drive a bit you're welcome to drop by. I don't teach as I'm still very much a learner, but I have a decent selection of tools (7 spokeshaves in various configurations, for example, and easily >20 bench planes of various sorts including most of Lee Valley's line) and they're all at least sharp :-). I have a few different planes set up for roughing if you want to play with that: A 5 and a scrub both with very deep camber, and a 5-1/4W and a 6 with more moderate camber.

With respect to sharpening there are many many ways to do it. Probably the lowest-upfront-cost way to augment the solution you're using right now is to add some PSA-backed Aluminum-Oxide lapping films for polishing, as well as a leather strop if you don't have one already. The available 3000# sandpaper is largely Silicon Carbide ("wet-or-dry") and IMO Al-Oxide film works better and lasts longer (to the point where you will easily amortize the higher cost) for metalwork. High-grit SiC paper is better used for rubbing out finishes IMO.

Hi Patrick! I've been going to MacBeath San Francisco.

Really appreciate your offer and would love to take you up on it sometime, especially if you're not too far from Bart. I'll send you a PM.

Good tip on the paper, I actually hadn't seen any Aluminum Oxide paper in the super high grits. I'm going to be doing more troubleshooting and sharpening attempts today and will post here how it all goes, I do now think something with my technique or my handling of the glass and paper is likely keeping me from reaching the sharpness I can/need to reach with the grits I've got already.

[Steve Kaminska]

Thanks! To make sure I'm not missing any terminology- a wire edge and a burr are one and the same?

Yes, wire edge and burr are the same. I couldn’t think of “burr” when I posted my response earlier, not enough coffee yet!

For high-grit sandpaper, find an auto body supply store, they will have a good selection of quality paper up to 2500 grit

[Alex Liebert]

383431

Put aside the #4 and did some work on the #8. I had been manually removing the rust over the past few days but since some spots were not coming out I decided to drop everything in EvapoRust overnight. This disintegrated 90% of the bluing from the back of the chipbreaker, perhaps it wasn't the best idea.

I set to work flattening the #8 blade as well. Like the #4, the back was quite concave. Doesn't show in this picture but I still have not completely eliminated the machining marks near the center and the slight burr forming on the bevel end doesn't reach to the middle... so the concavity hasn't been completely flattened.

80 grit sandpaper becomes 150 grit sandpaper in just a minute or two, so it's a choice between lots of paper or lots of time.

But I did reveal these pits right in the center. To remove them by further grinding the back would make the blade much thinner, so I think that must mean I need to grind them away from the bevel side. But they cover the entire depth of the beveled area so the steel making up the current bevel will need to be entirely ground away?

[Matt Lau]

Hey Alex,

I'm in Alameda. Let me know if you'd like a Mujingfang spokeshave...it's a Record clone that's actually pretty decent...my first spokeshave.
I got mine from Japan woodworker when it was in Alameda.
You're welcome to set up a time to come over and try my planes.

A few questions--how big are your pieces that you want to build? Do you have a workbench? What timbers? How big/strong are you?

I'll caveat:
1. I'm no expert
2. I don't have a nice workbench and my workshop is a huge mess.
3. I'm busy most of the time.
In terms of good resources-- Jay van Arsdale teaches Japanese woodworking out of Laney JR college in Oakland.
The crucible also has woodworking classes, as does Woodcraft in South Bay.

In terms of your other questions--- do what you feel is needed on your #8 and #4. It's a good learning experience.
Personally, I think a good jointer plane is good to buy new from Lie Nielson, Lee Valley, or even Woodriver.
The older ones aren't super stable, take a long time to get flat, and don't always stay that way.

Personally, I've been moving more towards Japanese and Chinese style planes due to the ergonomics.

[Matt Lau]

If I got your post a year ago, I would have given you some of my waterstones to get started.
As it is, they went to a friend.

As for learning to sharpen, you may want to call Hida tool for when their sharpening guy comes in.
He's a wealth of knowledge, and good with both western and japanese tools...and a friendly retired gaijin.

[Alex Liebert]

Hey Alex,

I'm in Alameda. Let me know if you'd like a Mujingfang spokeshave...it's a Record clone that's actually pretty decent...my first spokeshave.
I got mine from Japan woodworker when it was in Alameda.
You're welcome to set up a time to come over and try my planes.



Matt nice to meet you and thanks for the generous offer!

I actually have a stanley 151 that I've been using, I got lucky because I bought it from a woodworker's estate and it was in ready to go condition. Can't explain how much fun I've had using it and it's what got me interested in hand planes (an area where I'm having more trouble with the setting up, sharpening, and fettling, hence this thread but I think when I get it figured out I will get a lot of joy from them.) In either case would love to try your planes out if you don't mind showing me!



A few questions--how big are your pieces that you want to build? Do you have a workbench? What timbers? How big/strong are you?


The piece I'm making now I designed around (1) being the max size I want to work with and (2) incorporating some of the concepts / skills I'll need for stuff I want to make so it's kind of a test bed to figure out what I'm capable of / need to acquire etc. It's 20" x 38". I'm working with poplar- I don't see myself doing anything with more expensive or difficult wood any time soon. I'm not a huge guy but I don't mind exerting myself it's part of the fun. If I ever wanted to make something bigger than that it would be casegoods (dressers, cabinets etc), and also I would want to use veneered manmade materials for anything that resembles a box- at which point I'd be committing to big power tools which doesn't interest me.

I have a harbor freight 'woodworking' bench that was a very thoughtful gift, but it's definitely part of my problems. The return period had ended before I cleared out enough space for my work area. All of the particle board parts were damaged, except the bottom shelf which provides some of the structure. All the cross beam (particle board) parts were 1/8" wider than they should've been, so I had to shave them down with a surform rasp to make the thing come together. (I checked out the assembled demo model at a harbor freight store after, and see they solved this problem by leaving 1/8" gaps of exposed screws between the legs and braces.) It is sagging a little in the center and not flat on the top. The apron on the top is starting to bow away from the face (probably from force I exert using the vice.)

After a little experimenting I actually think the blades I am struggling to sharpen well enough might be serviceable if the bench was bolted to the floor or 100 pounds heavier.



In terms of your other questions--- do what you feel is needed on your #8 and #4. It's a good learning experience.
Personally, I think a good jointer plane is good to buy new from Lie Nielson, Lee Valley, or even Woodriver.
The older ones aren't super stable, take a long time to get flat, and don't always stay that way.

Personally, I've been moving more towards Japanese and Chinese style planes due to the ergonomics.

I'm pushing through it. On the #4 I've gone ahead and done some filing and sanding. At this point the frog can be made to sit close to straight and parallel if it's butted up against one side of the body. The contact areas of the bed are far from straight or correctly angled so the trick is also to move the frog more forward than where it seems it should be, which introduces problems for clearing the blade as far as I can tell. I also see evidence of agressive filing I did not do, perhaps by a previous owner.

The #8 is comparatively very sturdy and everything fits together as I expect it to based on my limited knowledge. It's mostly de-rusted and cleaned and when I get the blade sharpening figured out I'll give it a try. Really I think I will end up buying the veritas jointer for some of the reasons you mention, but I'm also trying to get one of these clunkers into somewhat working order so I can learn something from them at least.

Response to your second reply - Hida tools looks interesting, and the japanese approach and tooling in general would be cool to learn more about. And I would certainly like to meet their friendly sharpening guru.

Do you ever go to the Alameda antiques market on 1st sundays? Great if you have a general interest in antique and vintage furniture, and there's usually many hand tools in various conditions there. Not sure about Japanese tools specifically but I saw some nice router planes and other oddities last week in addition to the typical abundance of Stanley/Baileys.

If you do go would love to meet up there and just say hello would be great to meet another guy interested in woodworking!