MDF, Baltic Birch, and neader tools for them?

[Matt Lau]

Hey Neanderdudes (and non dudes),

I'm a self taught noob, and I've never felt comfortable doing dovetails with a router or table saw.
I'd like to do some carcass work in baltic birch...but the thought of fracturing a beautifully hand forged Japanese blade on that stuff makes me want to cry. Ditto for MDF. Some things are way easier to do with chisel and handplane than a router or tablesaw.

Can you guys recommend some chisels and other tools for that type of material?

On my shortlist are: Narex, Stanley Sweetheart, maybe a fancy powdered steel Japanese chisel from Stan?
As for planes, I think mujingfang and LV PMV11 should work.
Saws, I just use disposable japanese saws.

I'm pretty sure that I'm overcomplicating things.
Part of me doesn't want to abuse tools....but another part of me doesn't want to buy BORG crap.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[David Bassett]

I guess I have the same question floating in the back of my mind. So far my take is manufactured wood works best when machined. OTOH- some tasks just aren't worth setting up (or worse, traveling to a machine) and some suitable hand tools are good.

I've been happy with the way a Vaughan Bear Saw pseudo-Japanese saw's induction hardened teeth work in plywood & MDF.

Haven't really tried planing and haven't found a chisel solution.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Honestly anything will work as long as its sharp though if you're looking for purely beater tools some of the high alloyed Toolsteels might work better for that purpose or better yet HSS.

Stubai Spezial with the Plastic handles is what I'm used to they work great and can take a beating, Narex or any other Name brands should work just fine too.

[Patrick Chase]

I'd like to do some carcass work in baltic birch...but the thought of fracturing a beautifully hand forged Japanese blade on that stuff makes me want to cry. Ditto for MDF. Some things are way easier to do with chisel and handplane than a router or tablesaw.

Can you guys recommend some chisels and other tools for that type of material?

On my shortlist are: Narex, Stanley Sweetheart, maybe a fancy powdered steel Japanese chisel from Stan?
As for planes, I think mujingfang and LV PMV11 should work.
Saws, I just use disposable japanese saws.

I'm pretty sure that I'm overcomplicating things.

IMO the simplest answer here is that MDF and Baltic Birch ply aren't neander materials, so perhaps neander tools aren't the best choice for them.

MDF in particular is very abrasive, to the point where I mostly cut it using carbide power tools. I have a relatively indexpensive heavy-duty TCG table saw blade basically dedicated to the task (TCG because the points of ATB blades wear down in MDF). Even an impulse hardened dispose-a-saw will wear more quickly than normal with that stuff. MDF doesn't chisel very well as it tends to crack unpredictably when you drive wedges into it, so I'd also avoid doing that as well. I have the HAP40 (PM M4 HSS) chisels that Stan sells, and they'll hold up better than almost any other steel in MDF, but that's a pretty expensive route to take. The edge-taking that the PM steel gives those is wasted in MDF IMO, so I'd look for a more mundane HSS chisel instead.

Baltic Birch ply is more reasonable. It chisels fairly predictably (though differently than solid wood obviously) and isn't as abrasive as MDF. The glue layers will still cause accelerated wear of course. I smooth-plane the show faces of BB panels all the time, since the plane never touches glue that way and the wood basically behaves like any other birch. For hand-sawing I use impulse-hardened dispose-a-saws (Western or Japanese).

[Brian Holcombe]

If you're ok with resharpening every few passes, it gets old wearing out your equipment on plywood. The chisels will chop it fine, I wouldn't buy new chisels for one plywood job.

Modern plywood has a lot of embedded sanding grit from processing, so it's very hard on plane irons.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for the tips, guys!

I have a "beater" set of chisels that I got off ebay. They are very well made white steel chisels that were butchered by some guy in oregon (looks like there were sharpened on a bench grinder with an 80 grit 6 in wheel). They're abused enough where I don't feel guilty doing stuff with them, but I sorta feel for the smith. I think that I got them for about $180 after shipping.

http://www.hidatool.com/masashige-bench-chisel-set-of-10-single-hollow-red-oak-handle

ps. FWIW, I'm thinking mainly about doing dovetails on baltic birch or appleply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTVfHwzc7kY

[David Bassett]

... ps. FWIW, I'm thinking mainly about doing dovetails on baltic birch or appleply. ...

Your project, your joints, but.... I really think about box joints or lock miter joints when I think about plywood. (Except for most cases where my thoughts go to pocket holes & screws.)

[John C Cox]

I don't always work MDF and plywood..... But when I do, I use power tools and nails or screws...

Dovetails in MDF with fine white steel chisels.. You are a better man than I my friend.... I commend you for trying....

[Patrick Chase]

Your project, your joints, but.... I really think about box joints or lock miter joints when I think about plywood. (Except for most cases where my thoughts go to pocket holes & screws.)

Even a lock miter is problematic for ply IMO. The tongue has really poor support from the joints between plies and breaks off easily, sometimes during milling. I mostly use lapped miter joints instead.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for the tips, guys!

I have a "beater" set of chisels that I got off ebay. They are very well made white steel chisels that were butchered by some guy in oregon (looks like there were sharpened on a bench grinder with an 80 grit 6 in wheel). They're abused enough where I don't feel guilty doing stuff with them, but I sorta feel for the smith. I think that I got them for about $180 after shipping.

http://www.hidatool.com/masashige-bench-chisel-set-of-10-single-hollow-red-oak-handle

ps. FWIW, I'm thinking mainly about doing dovetails on baltic birch or appleply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTVfHwzc7kY

Those look quite worthy of fixing. Are just the bevels messed with?

[Frederick Skelly]

Like others said, both are hard on good tools. I keep a couple beaters to use on MDF and ply.

[Matt Lau]

Those look quite worthy of fixing. Are just the bevels messed with?

I'll see if I can take pictures.

The tools are still very usable, but were flayed like a borrowed mare.

[Matt Lau]

383490383491

Personally, I feel the chisels work fine...but definitely feels like riding a borrowed horse that was mistreated badly.
I just sharpened it up, tried to ignore the grinder marks, and use as needed.

They're good chisels.

[Patrick Chase]

Modern plywood has a lot of embedded sanding grit from processing, so it's very hard on plane irons.

True, that.

In my experience the higher-end solid Baltic birch stuff with 1/32" or 1/16" face plies isn't as bad as more mundane veneer core, but even so you wouldn't want to have at it with your Cesar Chelor :-).

[Matt Lau]

FWIW, I really hate working with MDF. The fine dust and the formaldehyde scares the crap out of me.

I see baltic birch as a little better (although maybe it's ignorance).
In the future, I may only work with Applyply or purebond stuff.....or stop working with plywood altogether.

However, plywood is pretty nice for drawer bottoms and jigs...grrr.

[Patrick Chase]

FWIW, I really hate working with MDF. The fine dust and the formaldehyde scares the crap out of me.

Nothing that you buy in the Bay Area is going to be all that bad in terms of formaldehyde (unless your supplier does what Lumber Liquidators did and simply lies about whether their materials are CARB-compliant).

[John C Cox]

Matt my friend - the glues used in plywood and mdf are the least of your worries unless you are burning the stuff... There is far more carcinogenic stuff in redwood and WRC.... And Cocobolo rosewood is infamous as a horrible allergy sensitizer and is well known for causing some really nasty problems. How do you suppose these woods stay so bug and fungus free? Natural poison in the wood...

And while these new urethane varnishes are supposedly better for VOC compliance - people have reported some really nasty side effects (splitting headaches and such) they never experienced with old fashioned short oil varnishes.

Sorry to be a debbie downer... But even natural things can be pretty nasty...

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for the tips guys.

FWIW, I don't work in Cocobolo (despite it's beauty). I didn't know that stuff about redwood and WRC, too bad half of my tops are WRC and one is a lucky strike redwood top!

I think that I'm not as worried about solid woods because I thought it was "natural"--I was thinking of pine, ash, birch, maple anyways.
My resolution is to try and get away from Ikea, and to make my own stuff as needed...mostly by hand...mostly in solid wood.
However, I'm a bit of a klutz and stumbling about at this stuff...have yet to do my first dovetail.

I think my first project will be sort of a take on Roy Underhill's folding workbench.
Except that it'll be used mostly as a desk, and for light woodworking as needed.

And in the future, maybe a Roubo? Part of me wants to make do. Part of me wants to be exuberant.

[Matt Lau]

In the meantime, would someone recommend an okay chisel under $50 that wouldn't completely fracture under the demands of plywood/MDF?

On my short list is Narex, Stanley Sweetheart, and the Mujingfang HSS chisels.
I'll probably save up for some of Stan's HSS (Hap40?) chisels if I ever get to building guitars with Carbon fiber bracing.

[John C Cox]

Stanley Fat Max or Marples blue handle (non-steel cap). I would just buy individual chisels rather than a set... But it's hard to pass up the Marples set around 6/$55 or the Blue BORG Stanley 4 for $30. Dewalt is the same as Stanley - available at Orange BORG for around 4/$30. All these are quality chisels that will do well enough and can be sharpened on your existing setup. A night in your deep freezer does miracles for the Marples....

If you don't want rubberized plastic handles with internal steel shanks - the Bailey chisels are the same steel as the Stanley.. They have wood handles and the longer Standard length blades vs the shorter butt length blades....

I would start with no less than a 30 degree microbevel.... Perhaps move up to 35 if you need to....

I think the Stanley might edge the Marples for use in MDF and plywood...

I was chopping hardwoods like mahogany and oak with the Stanley Fat Max using a 4# deadblow mallet (30 degree microbevel) and was not seeing edge rolling or chipping.. It would just whomp right through... That's one heck of a beating that destroyed the edges of lesser chisels...

[Patrick Chase]

In the meantime, would someone recommend an okay chisel under $50 that wouldn't completely fracture under the demands of plywood/MDF?

On my short list is Narex, Stanley Sweetheart, and the Mujingfang HSS chisels.
I'll probably save up for some of Stan's HSS (Hap40?) chisels if I ever get to building guitars with Carbon fiber bracing.

So to be clear, HAP40 is Hitachi's powdered-metal M4 HSS variant. It's basically the same composition as standard M4, but with finer grain structure due to PM processing.

I think that HSS is the right way to go for this use. The carbides in M4 range up to almost Rc90 in hardness, and confer better abrasion resistance than any HCS or Chromium-based alloy. I wouldn't want to risk anything as expensive as those HAP40 chisels on this sort of work, though, so of the tools you listed I'd go with the Muji HSS. While I ordinarily dislike non-PM HSS tools, this is an exception.

With that said, you should try chiseling a bit of MDF with an existing chisel (a little bit won't do too much damage :-) just to see if it's something you want to be doing. The stuff fractures in unpredictable ways when you drive wedges into it, to the point where I've long since given up on trying.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks. I might do that.

[Brian Holcombe]

I cut plywood with white steel chisels, they do fine but usually need to be sharpened after.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks!

Fwiw, I think that I'll try to move to working with solid wood instead of mdf or plywood (except jigs or speaker boxes).