PM vs M2 ellsworth bowl gouge

[jared herbert]

So my original ellsworth bowl gouge that I bought directly over the phone from the man himself has finally gotten too short to use.
I am studying the catalog and now find that I have 2 choices, the Crown Pro-PM and the Henry taylor M2 HSS. Out side of the fact that the
PM costs $12 more [which is not a factor in the decision] what is the practical difference between the two. My understanding is that the PM
should last a little longer between sharpenings but are there other factors that enter in to this? Thanks in advance Jared

[John K Jordan]

So my original ellsworth bowl gouge that I bought directly over the phone from the man himself has finally gotten too short to use.
I am studying the catalog and now find that I have 2 choices, the Crown Pro-PM and the Henry taylor M2 HSS. Out side of the fact that the
PM costs $12 more [which is not a factor in the decision] what is the practical difference between the two. My understanding is that the PM
should last a little longer between sharpenings but are there other factors that enter in to this? Thanks in advance Jared

Are you constrained to just those two, just prefer them, or want features just those have?

In 2005 someone asked the same question in another forum.

One reply:
"I have two Crown gouges. One is M2 HSS, the other is from their PM line. The PM basically is a different compound, and created differently, using more vanadium and other metals. In this particular case I didn't think the PM tool was exhorbitantly more expensive than the M2 HSS version. Both get sharpened via the same jig on the same wheel. One thing is certain. The edge on the PM tool stays sharper longer. I've turned over 300 pieces and the PM tool is my mainstay. "

And this:

"Because of their high hardness, vanadium carbides are particularly beneficial for wear resistance. When present in significant amounts, vanadium carbides tend to dominate other types in affecting wear properties. For instance, M4 high speed steel�s chemical content is nearly identical to M2 high speed steel, except M4 contains 4% vanadium instead of 2%. Despite the high levels of molybdenum and tungsten carbides (about 6% tungsten, 5% molybdenum) in each grade, the small difference in vanadium content gives M4 nearly twice the wear life of M2 in many environments." http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html (I didn't check to see if the link was still active)

Based on that you might consider M4 steel instead of M2.

I personally prefer the CPM10V (A-11) powdered metal that Doug Thompson uses in all his tools. However, I don't think he offers a parabolic flute if you prefer that. I think the Thompson gouges hold an edge far better than the my Ellsworth and other HSS gouges. (BTW, I've even used them to turn steel on my wood lathe)

I did recently buy an M4 [edit: M42] bowl gouge but don't have enough experience with it yet to compare to the Thompson.

JKJ

[jared herbert]

Thanks for the info. I have a doug Thompson bowl gouge and for some reason I just prefer the ellsworth gouge so that is why I am going to buy another one of them. I have tried to like the Thompson gouge. It does hold an edge very well, probably better than the ellsworth, and I like that part of it however, a point of personal preference, I just prefer the way the ellsworth gouge works.

[David Bassett]

..., a point of personal preference, I just prefer the way the ellsworth gouge works.

You can change the external profile when you sharpen, so I assume it is the flute that is significant to you.

Doug Thompson makes a signature gouge for Lyle Jamieson with a Parabolic Flute (https://lylejamieson.com/product/signature-jamieson-grind-bowl-gouge-thompson-handled/). (Also Unhandled (https://lylejamieson.com/product/signature-jamieson-grind-bowl-gouge-unhandled/) and w/Wood Handle (https://lylejamieson.com/product/signature-jamieson-grind-bowl-gouge-wood-handled/) cheaper.)

I found an older thread here about parabolic flute gouges: TRUE parabolic bowl gouges (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?238174-TRUE-parabolic-bowl-gouges), that has other options too.

[Gary Baler]

I have used the Crown cryogenic gouges for some time and reduced at least 8 of them to the point they can no longer be sharpened on the grinder. I have recently obtained a 3/8 and 1/2 version of their new powdered steel gouges. They are hard, hold an edge and feel good in the hand. There is no one better to deal with.

[Pat Scott]

Thanks for the info. I have a doug Thompson bowl gouge and for some reason I just prefer the ellsworth gouge so that is why I am going to buy another one of them. I have tried to like the Thompson gouge. It does hold an edge very well, probably better than the ellsworth, and I like that part of it however, a point of personal preference, I just prefer the way the ellsworth gouge works.

Exactly. I have tried to like the Thompson gouge also but have found that I much prefer a parabolic flute. The flute profile is most likely why you prefer the Ellsworth over the Thompson too. I owned 6 Thompson bowl gouges in different sizes before I sold 4 of them. I still have the 5th gouge which is a big 3/4" gouge that is almost worn out (and has already been replaced with a Glaser HiTec 3/4" gouge that has a parabolic flute), and the 6th Thompson gouge is a small 1/4" that I use occasionally but for what I use it for it's fine.

Does anyone actually own a Lyle Jamieson parabolic flute gouge? I'd sure like to see a good picture of the flute. To make a parabolic flute gouge requires a different and much more expensive cutter than a V flute cutter. What I don't understand is why would Thompson spend the money to buy an expensive cutter and not add parabolic flutes to his lineup? I'd be surprised if Jamieson sells that many gouges to make it worthwhile to Thompson. I was told that Jamieson's gouges are not parabolic even though he says they are, that just the depth of the flute (or something like that) is different from a regular Thompson and that Jamieson's are still V flute. That's why I'd like to see pictures from someone that actually owns a Jamieson gouge instead of going by what I read or hear.

Jared, back to your original question on which tool to buy, I would get the Henry Taylor over the Crown. The Crown is not a parabolic flute and the flute is more closed than other brands (meaning shavings will jam up in the flute more than other brands). Yes I own two Crown Pro-PM gouges. But I'd also give a hard look at the Glaser HiTec or an M4 gouge such as the Stay Sharp line than Craft Supplies sells. I just bought two Glaser HiTec gouges to replace one that I've had for years. Glaser uses a gel in the handle now instead of shot, and the weight of the handle has been significantly reduced. I liked and got used to the shot filled handle, but the new handle feels about the same weight as a wood handle gouge.

[Brian Deakin]

Crown now has a new range of M42 razor edge tools with copper ferrules

http://www.marksanger.co.uk/crownturningtools.html ( price does not include value added tax 20%)

https://www.axminster.co.uk/crown

also see

http://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/page29.html (http://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/page29.html)

Please note the M42 tools have RAZW in the product code and the bowl gouge is available in 2 different grinds

I do not know if the M42 tools are available in the USA

regards Brian

[Reed Gray]

I haven't used M2 in years. Main reason is the V10 from Doug, and the M42 from Dave Schweitzer of D Way tools who was the first I know of to market the M42, 10 or more years ago. The reason for using these tool metals is the edge holds a lot better, so less trips to the grinder by a huge margin. Other than that, it is flute shape. Glenn Lucas now has his parabolic fluted gouges made with M42. I can't remember what metal Oneway was using for their gouges, but they were also one of the 'lasts 5 times longer' type of metal. I do use a freshly sharpened tool for finish cuts. I don' use swept back gouges at all any more. I use scrapers for all of my heavy roughing and for shear scraping. I do a pass or two with a gouge, but prefer the 45/45 grind on the outside and down the inside wall, then a 70 degree bevel for the transition and across the bottom.

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

IF I had to pick only one gouge to use, it would be my 5/8 Crown PM Ellsworth. No question. Second would be my oneways, then my Sorbys. I guess I prefer the parabolic flute, although I have NO idea exactly why...... I do own others, the Thompson V gouges have their times when I grab them. Sometimes I grab the Superflutes. I have several Pro PMs. They last a while. I like them. Just my $0.02.

[Thom Sturgill]

The last time I saw Lyle (almost 2 yrs ago) he had Doug's gouges, but they were straight sided. D-way has a true parabolic and a better finish to his tools, IMHO. In usage I find little difference in wear between Doug's V11 and Dave's M42. I own a Crown PM with the Ellsworth name on it, and Dave's handle very similarly.

BTW, I also prefer the elliptical (or parabolic - there's very little difference) flute. Better control and less issues with the grind. The wing can be straight, and because of the outward curve still be controlable. The same grind with a straight sided V will try to take too large a bite. You have to grind the wing with a slight arc to provide a curved cutting edge.

[Reed Gray]

Actually the D Way tools are more of a V flute. Dave does make one that is almost a half round flute. Carter and Son make a parabolic flute Mike Mahoney signature gouge. Lyle's gouge is a more open V than Dougs, but not what I would call a parabolic flute.

robo hippy

[Bill Blasic]

Reed I'm pretty sure C&S flutes are exactly like D Ways. There is a reason for that!

[John K Jordan]

Reed I'm pretty sure C&S flutes are exactly like D Ways. There is a reason for that!

Can you tell the reason or is it a rumor best left unsaid?

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

C and S were clones of the D Way tools at first. They have added to their line up shall we say... Mike does/did have a signature line up of parabolic flutes done with C and S. I never really checked out their tools beyond a glance or two. There was a thread here a while back about that, and it ended up getting closed.

robo hippy

[Thom Sturgill]

Dave advertises a parabolic flute. I have several with parabolic flutes. The Carter & Sons that I have seen all had staight sided V flutes. I checked them with a straight edge that was small enough to fit into the flute. they stated at that time that they had no intention of producing either a parabolic or elliptical gouge, though that may have changed.

From Dave's site:
Our Woodtrurning Bowl Gouge flutes are individually inspected and hand polished to remove all machine marks. This extra step assures the sharpest cutting edge possible. The flutes are a parabolic U shaped with tapered sides not a deep V. U shaped gouges are great for either finger nail or bottom feeder grinds. Made from M42 Cobalt HSS heat treated to a hardness of 66-68 HRC, tripled tempered. They are shipped sharp.​