best way to attach a table top to the legs

[Adam Herd]

One thing I have not learned yet is different ways to attach a table top to the legs. Obviously i could just screw it in from the top but then you would see the screws... I built a coffee table over the summer. It is a shaker style table with pocket screws going from the rails into the table. My next project is going to be a wine rack for a friend and I don't know any other way to attach the top to the legs besides the shaker style apron and rails and thats not the look I want for the wine rack. I will upload an image from google sketchup because I can not draw. Thanks for all the advice. I added 2 pictures of the wine rack of how it looks currently in sketchup and also added a picture of the coffee table so people could visualize what I was talking about.

[Lee Schierer]

For the wine rack I would use figure 8 fasteners. For the aproned table I would use metal or wood z-clips in grooves in the aprons.

[Matt Day]

If you just screw the top to then aprons you’re not accounting for wood movement. Understanding Wood movement is a key to making furniture, without it your top will split as it moves with seasonal changes in humidity.

My go to is z-clips.

[Doug Hepler]

Adam,

Your sketch does not show aprons. Adding aprons, even fairly thin ones (rails) would strengthen the design considerably. If you merely butt the legs against the top they are likely to loosen or tear off if anybody puts lateral stress on them, as in sliding the wine rack across the floor or bumping a leg with a vacuum cleaner, etc. (The legs are not braced front to back) A compromise would be gussets or glue blocks butted against the legs and attached to the top (the same idea as aprons, but shorter. Look at the Rockler website under "corner blocks" to get the idea. Those are not decorative -- they are meant to be hidden. You can make curved ones to make them more attractive and place them vertically against the tegs and the top.

If the top is made of solid wood (not plywood or MDF) and you use aprons, you should allow for wood movement across the grain. You can safely screw the top to an apron in the center but you need to use "Z" clips, as mentioned above, or figure 8 clips along the outsides.

The classic way to build a table would use mortises cut into the legs and tenons on the aprons (rails).

Doug

[Wayne Lomman]

If you don't want rails/aprons, you need to make the frame structural independently of the top. You look like you will have 2 or 3 sets of bottle rails. This is good. You need to add some side rails as well so that the front and back are connected. Get this strong enough regardless of the top. You can then attach the top with a shallow mortise and tenon joint or even dowels and simply glue it in place. Your design will work better with a ply or mdf top. No side rails means no support across the grain if it is solid timber. Cheers

[Peter Christensen]

By going to a thicker top, say 1 1/2", you can cut a tenon or put a dowel on the top of the legs and glue it into the top. Increase the overhang a little and you can taper the edge from the legs to the edge for a lighter look. The tops of the legs should flex enough if there is some room between the top and the first front to back members to allow for movement.

[Adam Herd]

thats a good idea i never thought of dowels or a tenon.

[Matt Day]

A dowel would work if you have a sturdy well constructed base; a dowel pin is used in heavy workbench tops a lot. But the design you show in Sketchup needs work. For instance, there don’t appear to be any cross members connecting the front and back. I suggest adding them per my attached sketch. Problem is, a dowel doesn’t account for wood movement, but it may be a narrow enough top not to worry.

Have you read read the other suggestions?

[Adam Herd]

I do realize i need cross members I just didn't put them in yet. I was thinking for an easy way to hold the top on just glue 2 cross members at the top to the legs and to the top as I have now.

[Peter Christensen]

Apart from the look being ugly as drawn, if you do that the top will move but the glue line will break or the top will crack. You are not accounting for wood movement. The top has to be attached to the cross pieces with screws and elongated holes or with wood or metal buttons. Take the wood that you want to use and plug in the size and the moisture content the wood will be and can encounter seasonally and see how much it can move. As an example: White oak, 8% to 6% with a top of 18" will move over 1/8". You can expect that or more with the difference between summer and winter humidity changes. You would benefit greatly if you could get the 3 Tage Frid books Taunton press published.

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=shrinkage

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator/

https://www.tauntonstore.com/tage-frid-teaches-woodworking-set-tage-frid-070880.html?ref=1

[Andrew Seemann]

Two cross members at the top on the narrow sides would be good, but remember you can't glue the top to the cross members; you will need something to allow the top to expand and contract. Figure 8s would be easy and work well for this application, and they are inexpensive as well. Alternatively you could drive screws through the cross members but you will need to elongate the holes through the cross member for all but one of them per side, same thing, the top needs to be able to expand and contract. The below link from woodcraft covers the basic idea.

https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/tabletop-fasteners

[Andrew Seemann]

I would definitely second the 3 Frid books as well. They aren't the prettiest, but they are probably the best and most complete overview of woodworking there is in book form. I still consult my copies from time to time. They cover a very diverse range of techniques and operations, and equally important, they don't obsess over tools or dovetails. If you get them one by one, book 1 is the most useful and the one to read first, book two follows on that, book 3 is handy, but not essential. Looks like they are easily available on the used market as well and are likely at the local library.

[Adam Herd]

I'm going to side track a little. Going off of what peter said, I do not have a moisture meter and I know I need one. How much should one spend on a moisture meter and any suggestions for them?

[Andrew Seemann]

A moisture meter can be handy but really isn't essential. In winter, you usually can assume the wood will expand moving into summer, and in summer that the wood will shrink into winter. If the wood is close to equilibrium then you just assume the seasonal movement. Knowing that wood is at equilibrium isn't easy, but if it has sat in the environment for a few weeks and was bought kiln dried, it is probably close. Just design for seasonal maximum and don't assume that the summer wood is always at max expansion and that winter is at minimum.

In 30 plus years of woodworking, I haven't bothered with a moisture meter. I've tried some inexpensive ones, but they don't read low enough for my climate, so I gave up. Fact is in Minnesota, the summer and winter extremes are so far apart and the humidity changes so fast, that the wood realistically is almost never at equilibrium, it is always behind the current weather a few weeks or months depending on thickness. You just need to assume the wood will move and take it into account. Remember, woodworkers 100 years ago didn't have moisture meters and they survived.

[Matt Day]

You are getting off track. You need to realize what seasonal wood movement is and account for it in your design, not measure the MC. I've been woodworking for 15 years and don't have one. How many times can we say "account for wood movement" and you seemingly ignore it?

How about you add another cross member where you shown that ugly square stick. Make it say 2" deep so it doesn't protrude too much, cut a kerf in it and add a few z-clips. Done.

You should also consider lightening those legs a bit as they look very chunky - either simply make them smaller or taper them.

Spend some more time with the design in Sketchup and get it as close to finished as you can, then we can give you a better critique. Posting it with pieces simply missing makes it hard for us to understand what's going on.

[Adam Herd]

I'm not ignoring just thinking. I have always read that every wood worker should have a moisture meter but if you are all saying that they are not necessary then that works for me, less money. I like the idea of thickening the top and using a mortise and tenon joint to join them. I haven't really thought about tapering the legs because I have them being 1 1/2" square. I figured that would almost be the minimal size for strength and support. I was thinking 1 1/2" because I know that the guy I buy my wood from will have 8/4 and last time I was there I bought the last 4" square stock he had. I do not know if he cut more before or during the winter.

[Patrick Irish]

Used z clips for the first time today. Made slots with my porter cable joiner on #10 setting. Adjusted the fence to 9/16” I think and that snugged the top down perfect.

Still think it’s gonna move a lot. It was a console table for my sister made from Home Depot fir, her suggestion from a diy on a mommy blog hah!