FAS vs #1 Common Grade Lumber Question

[Tony Roun]

I'm getting set to take on a bedroom furniture project using rift white oak lumber. I had a question as I have been pricing out some lumber options. Most places stock FAS that is planed and edged. There is one option for me to buy #1 common grade lumber that is planed and edged jointed on one side. The common grade lumber is 1/3 the cost of the FAS stuff. I've always used select lumber that is pretty close to ready for use, so I'm not sure how much effort I'd be looking at to cut around defects and if it is worth it. I'm curious others' experiences and if you'd deal with some defects for such a large discount in price. A good chunk of my needs are pieces in the 2-4' length. Thanks!

[Jim Becker]

If you can select your lumber and your component sizes are small like you state, picking through the common lumber could save you a bundle as long as the "clear" areas meet your grain and color expectations. Just remember that when you pick your lumber, you're already starting the finishing process for your project, so taking care here is important. While I will not say that "money isn't important", the end result clearly matters the most.

[Ron Citerone]

Jim just spoke volumes that took me too long to learn but here we are! :) One nice thing about common lumber is that you can take a lot of pieces that may not be what you want for a top, drawer front or cabinet side, and use them for sides of drawers, shelves and web frames............and of course cutting boards!

[Dave Zellers]

Yes #1 common will have knots but hardwood trees tend to have fewer branches than pine trees. So it certainly can save a lot of money. Just be aware that the grain will be all over the place. The beauty of FAS is the (usually) clean straight grain.

[Patrick Kane]

Hey Tony, for the majority of your project, I think 1com would serve you well. I think a lot of hobbyists automatically go for FAS, because that’s what magazines and YouTube personalities show. However, for the most part it is easy to work around defects in 1com oak, cherry, maple etc. 1com walnut can really be hit or miss. I’ve purchased packs of 1com walnut that were incredible. I’ve also purchased 1com walnut that had a lot more bow, twist, and cupping to contend with. For me, the price of select or face/better cherry, oak, maple, isn’t that much more expensive than 1com and it offers a far superior product.

What is the price difference? If it’s a buck or two, I’d go for FAS. If its $4 difference and you are buying 300-400’, then I know what I would be doing.

[Mark Bolton]

The main question is whether your supplier will allow you to cull their #1 common pile for the best boards. We don't have that luxury. We buy #1 common, there is no picking, you call in your order, when you get there 150' or 1500' of material is banded and in a stack ready to be forked onto your truck or trailer.

In my mind it would make no sense for a supplier to grade #1 common and then let people come in and pick through a unit cherry picking the best boards and ultimately leaving them with a unit of #2 common.

We buy a LOT of FAS. We recently brought in 4k feet of FAS cherry for a job. We buy the higher grade because we are a small shop and can't afford, nor do we have the room, to grade out select material from packs of #1 common in house. We need, and want, to walk to the pack, and take any board straight into production.

We do buy #1 common for drawers and secondary wood and cull a lot of select and figured material out that we then sell on the hobby market or use for juicy work.

I'd plan on buying 50 to 100 percent more if you go #1 common and can't pick through because defect will always land where you don't want it or can't use it.

If you can pick id say your lucky or are paying a higher price for #1common for the option to pick.

When we sell lumber out of our inventory it's a small markup for x# of board feet. If the person wants to pick it will be 4x that price.

[Mark Bolton]

1com walnut can really be hit or miss. I’ve purchased packs of 1com walnut that were incredible. I’ve also purchased 1com walnut that had a lot more bow, twist, and cupping to contend with.

Something to remember is that walnut is graded on a completely different basis than other hardwoods. If someone is comparing FAS or #1 common walnut to any other hardwood they are going to be let down.

[Tony Roun]

These are great points so far, thank you. In General round figures, the pricing is $5-6 per bd ft for FAS vs $2 per bd ft for common #1. For my immediate project needs, the volume of 4/4 lumber really depends on whether I want to use solid wood panels or utilize plywood for some of the casework. Ideally I was going to use veneered plywood but was shocked at the cost! I was thinking of buying 200-300 bd ft most likely. I think the point about using some boards with minor imperfections in less visible points of the projects certainly lends itself toward buying #1 common stock. The grain and color seemed OK to me from the 5 or so boards I looked at. I just know that I tend to be a bargain shopper and didn't want to jump head first into dealing with lower grade wood without asking folks who've been there and done that. I hadn't thought about having more bow/twist in #1 common, do you think I'd still encounter that given this is quarter/rift sawn lumber? That would be a big deal to me if I had to fight the wood a lot more in that respect.

[Brad Shipton]

Here are the grading rules: http://www.ucfp.com/resources/NHLA_Grading_Rules_for_North_American_Hardwoods.pd f

[Tony Roun]

Mark, good point on the cherry picking through the #1 common boards. I did not specifically ask about picking through the pile. They stated that my price would be $.50/ft cheaper if I took the whole pile, and I took that to mean that I could select boards that would work for me if I paid the slightly higher price but perhaps that isn't a good assumption.

[Mark Bolton]

Here are the grading rules: http://www.ucfp.com/resources/NHLA_Grading_Rules_for_North_American_Hardwoods.pd f

I know the OP wasn't talking about walnut but just for clarity that PdF is not across the board for all north American hardwoods so it can be deceiving. For instance https://www.mcilvain.com/walnut-grades-explained/

It can be a real eye opener when you break into a pack.

[Andrew Seemann]

When I was redoing my kitchen 10 odd years ago, I went to my hardwood supplier, to get wood, and more importantly, decide what species of wood to use. When I got there, I saw that they had just gotten a new shipment of #1 cherry in, so that pretty much made my decision for me. I sorted through the whole pile and bought roughly 2/3 of it. Fortunately this place allows you to sort through the pile. 4/4 FAS 90/90 cherry was going for about $5 a board foot rough then, and the #1 was about $1.50 although it did have more sapwood. I got about 50% more than I thought i would need and still came out ahead cost wise. I did end up having to get more still. When I went to pay, I mentioned that they had gotten a new shipment in and I hit it pretty hard. They asked if there was anything good in the pile, and I said "well, not any more." They thought that was quite funny.

One thing I have noticed is that #1 tends to have more cup and twist in it; I think due to the knots causing the grain to wave more. Sometimes they can be pretty big and distort the grain quite a bit. If you can cut around the knots and deal with the warp and still have enough to use after planer snipe, it can be a good deal.

In general, I try to use the lowest grade I can that is still serviceable for the use, partially for cost and partially because it is a little more eco friendly. If we are going to cut a tree down for lumber, let's use it as responsibly as practical.

[Patrick Kane]

Yes, walnut is graded differently. Walnut is the species I have more experience with as far as 1com versus FAS. I’ve used thousands of bdft of both grades. I thought it was worthwhile to note the difference I’ve observed in tension, twist, and cupping. It isn’t just a difference in knots, voids, or sapwood.

I appreciate the sustainable sensibility from earlier. I agree with this. We shouldnt all use FAS for every drawer side and case back—even if we can afford to do so.

[Mark Bolton]

We shouldnt all use FAS for every drawer side and case back—even if we can afford to do so.

Oh my, hopefully no one is doing that. Maybe the guy with the tiny girrafe or the 370 million dollar sail boat lol.

[Scott T Smith]

I hadn't thought about having more bow/twist in #1 common, do you think I'd still encounter that given this is quarter/rift sawn lumber? That would be a big deal to me if I had to fight the wood a lot more in that respect.

Re the potential for twist/bow in QS and RSO, it depends upon the original miller. QS/RS lumber is typically obtained one of two ways. The first way is from a specialty miller that quarter/rift mills on a regular basis. Typically these millers will center the pith in the log in both planes (half taper milling) when milling, and there is minimal slope of grain from one end of the board to the other. Boards milled this way tend to stay flat, unless the tree was a leaner.

The other way that QS/RS is sourced is from a high volume mill that does flat grade sawing on the full taper method. Full taper milling mills parallel to the bark, so rift and quartered boards may have a slope of grain running along one edge which can contribute to twist/bow in the board.

Your greater risk in QS/RS lumber is for it to crook from one end to the other. This is the most prevalent in boards that have either a sapwood band along one edge, or a pith wood band along the opposite edge.

[Charlie Hinton]

Where the heck are y'all that you can get hardwood so cheap?
I am in the Dallas area and this is about as good as it gets.
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[Andrew Seemann]

Ouch! I'm a thousand miles north, and most of those are about 1/4 to 1/2 less, although that is wholesale.

[Jim Becker]

Where the heck are y'all that you can get hardwood so cheap?
I am in the Dallas area and this is about as good as it gets.


Charlie, geography and transportation costs come into play. Species like Cherry and Walnut by example are not something growing in your area in harvestable quantities, so all of that nice lumber has to be shipped in from a distance. For folks who live in places where these species are commonly harvested, prices "in general" may be lower. I've paid as low as $3.00 a board foot for air dried cherry (really nice stuff), although not recently but it grows here in the northeast. In fact, I have several cherry trees on my own property, although they are not suitable for harvest. I also have black walnut and poplar, both of which I've harvested and had milled for my shop over the years.

[Mark Bolton]

Where the heck are y'all that you can get hardwood so cheap?
I am in the Dallas area and this is about as good as it gets.
383309


Yeah, Those numbers are sky high for us around here but as Jim said, most of the species on your list grow here locally. We buy in bigger pack quantities unless we have no other choice but one supplier we use only in a pinch will sell a board or a tractor and trailer load and while there is a break for full packs its not a very hefty break (hence we dont use them often). But as an example we needed a small fill in load of cherry a bit back and picked up 4/4 sel & btr Cherry, KD of course, their rough number was like 3.03/bd ft. which is way high compared to what we normally pay for FAS not select and better. The Maple and Walnut numbers in your list are equally as high.

I know trucking has something to do with it but oddly, we dont pay triple for species like Ponderosa Pine or Western Red Cedar as comared to someone in Oregon or Washington (same shipping scenario). I realize a lot of that material is coming to the east in bulk for construction and window fabrication but I think there is a heck of a huge markup in the hardwood market on-mass. There are most definitely suppliers around here charging astronomical prices to small shops and those in the hobby.

I would be looking into setting up some sort of a buying group where you could pull material in directly from places where that material is processed on a daily basis.

[Charlie Hinton]

Thanks.
Still jealous though.
Probably the same feeling our Canadian cousins have about the difference in equipment prices.
There used to be real one off lumber yards all around the area but over the years they have died off.
The price list was the current pricing pulled from a local small business website.
The prices in the area vary some between the retailers and change +/- every month or so depending on species so it is worth checking before buying but the prices are still high.

[Mark Bolton]

There used to be real one off lumber yards all around the area but over the years they have died off.

Same thing here. The last local yard that sold everything from hardware to construction lumber all the way through to having a monstrous dream millwork shop full of old, heavy tooling, an amazing place known for super quality material (but expensive), vaporized a few years ago. Now if you want anything locally, other than whats available at the big box lumber yards, your pretty much dead. Our nearest source is a bit less than an our a way from the shop but you'll be picking up 600-800' half packs minimum, the others, including the single board yard, are nearly two hours one way. Crazy.

[Steve Jenkins]

I’m just north of Dallas and it’s not just the price but the quality. Narrow to medium width and in the case of walnut it’s not unusual to have one face 50-80 percent sap. I’ve been buying lumber for over 35 years so have seen a lot of changes in availability. Walnut especially since they changed the grade so sapwood is not a defect. Occasionally I will order from up north if I want wide sap free walnut.

[Curt Harms]

Where the heck are y'all that you can get hardwood so cheap?
I am in the Dallas area and this is about as good as it gets.
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There aren't many pluses to living in the Northeast but hardwood availability is one.