Slot mortiser recomendations

[Livingston Johnston]

Im leaning towards picking up a slot mortiser as we move our production to loose tenons. Id like to hear your opinions on what is out there. So far, the only machine i have info on is a Felder FD 250. I'd need a "production" quality machine. What else should i look for. Martin seems to have one but cant find much about it. Same with SCM.

Thanks

[David Kumm]

Define production as to amount of usage and size of mortises. I had an FD 250 to make passage doors with 5/8x2 1/2x3" deep mortises, 20 mortises per door. After about two doors I was ready for steroids and pain killers. Standing over the machine with that joystick was not something I could do for long. If your volume is relatively high and mortises are large, I'd look at a used ocsillating mortiser. I have a Bacci that I bought used for less than an FD and it does a better and faster job than the Felder. A hand operated mortiser can produce slightly different width mortises in end vs long grain. Don't ask me why but I found that some slight clean up with a rasp was needed on one or the other, depending on species. Not an issue with the Bacci. If you need a machine to do a quick eyeball mortise, the FD type machine is as quick and easy as any but it isn't a batch machine. DAve

[Kevin Jenness]

Accurate results with manual slot mortisers are dependent on technique to minimize bit whip, all the more so as bit length increases.Small depth advances and consistent feed rates make for equally sized mortises in end and side grain. Oscillating mortisers like Bacci, Pade and Balestrini allow for automatic control of those variables and more predictable results.

Manual units are also made by Bini and Griggio (rebadged by Martin?) among others as well as Laguna and Grizzly. The units I have used (Bini, Felder and Steton) all were a lot easier to use blocked up 4 inches or so.

[David Kumm]

Kevin, do you have a preference between the motor moving and table staionary or vice versa? I could not find a comfortable position but I still keep the Felder because it is handy and fast to set up. Also agree that technique is the issue. Big mortises in hickory take some patience and lacking that the tip of the bit can dull quickly. Dave

[Mark Hennebury]

Maka Style swing chisel mortisers are clean, fast and versatile. The can do single, double, triple, and quadruple mortises of the same of different sizes and different end profiles. They can do large mortises up to about 7" long and 5" deep and widths up to about 1 1/4" wide. They can cut in long grain and end grain, in soft and hard woods. They are better suited for square or angled-end mortises.

For round end loose mortises like David said the best machines in my opinion would be the automatic slot mortisers like the Pade, Bacci, Balestrini .

I have used the balestrini twin table mortiser and the matching tenoner extensively. Brilliant machines and they can cut hundreds of joints per hour effortlessly. You have a hard time keeping the tables loaded. The Balestrini mortisers are set up for production work, I did small scale studio work, so i didn't need 500 or 600 an hour, but i want super clean precise joints, so i re-machined the spindle to increase the spindle rpm, and put a gearbox in the machine to slow the crossfeed speed, this gave a lower output but a much higher quality of mortise, we are still talking in the hundreds per hour range.

Maka Mortises

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Balestrini mortises

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I mostly made furniture and entry doors.
but when you have nice machines you can find lots of other nice projects to make.

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[Livingston Johnston]

Thanks for the info. When i said production, i meant a solid machine that can run all day and remain accurate. Sorry, i wasnt too clear there. Something that has variation in the mortises doesnt seem too appealing.

The maka would be fantastic for producing doors but im not sure how it could use it making sash with 1.125" muntin bars. I guess thats another question though. How can i do true divided lites with this type of machine. Could one use a balestrini to make a round hole for a dowel with these fine parts and a larger mortice but with same bit, for the larger parts

I really appreciate all the advice.

[Kevin Jenness]

David, having used both I actually prefer the style with the moving table as I can control the depth of cut and the cross feed separately rather than both at once with a joystick. I have mortised 7' door stiles on that machine without difficulty using outfeed stands.

Livingston, I would guess that an oscillating slot mortiser could be set for boring just as a manual one can be. I have done some sash work with cope and stick plus dowels on the small parts and larger spline tenons at the corners with a manual machine. I believe Joe Calhoon does his door and sash work using heavy shapers and a boring machine. Perhaps he will chime in.

I think the maka type swing chisel mortisers can make any size mortise given the proper tooling. You have to decide whether you want to use true mortise and tenon or inserted tenons (or dowels). The inserted joinery is very adaptable and strong although arguably a bit less convincing especially on the scale of a 3/4" sash muntin.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thanks for the info. When i said production, i meant a solid machine that can run all day and remain accurate. Sorry, i wasnt too clear there. Something that has variation in the mortises doesnt seem too appealing.

The maka would be fantastic for producing doors but im not sure how it could use it making sash with 1.125" muntin bars. I guess thats another question though. How can i do true divided lites with this type of machine. Could one use a balestrini to make a round hole for a dowel with these fine parts and a larger mortice but with same bit, for the larger parts

I really appreciate all the advice.

Maka machines were made in several models. The small machines were great for windows.
You could make small mortises, check the block of cherry, it has three larger mortise probably 1/2" x 3" and one small mortise about 1/16" x 5/8"
The machine that i used in the photo with the windows is a model SM6PII probably from the 70's
Check the brochure page showing some of the blades.

Maka also made a much large machine.
The Balestrini mortisers are great for furniture. The mortise is infinitely variable within the range of the machine from a dowel hole up to about 4" center to center slot and would take a wide range of bit sizes. The standard mortise bits are not drills and are not designed for drilling, but sidecutting. But the mortising machines have two tables and you can set them up with a mortise bit in one side and a drill in the other. There are ways to do things, if you have a bit of imagination.


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[David Kumm]

Mark, I have a Maka like in your picture but have never used it. It was close and because they come up so seldom, i bought just to play with in the future. In the " too hard " pile right now but maybe this summer i'll fire it up. The bearing system in then Bacci is interesting. Timken bearings in an oil bath. The machine needs to be level or one bearing runs hot from too much oil and the other runs too dry. level they run cool for as long as i've tried. Dave

[Mark Hennebury]

Mark, I have a Maka like in your picture but have never used it. It was close and because they come up so seldom, i bought just to play with in the future. In the " too hard " pile right now but maybe this summer i'll fire it up. The bearing system in then Bacci is interesting. Timken bearings in an oil bath. The machine needs to be level or one bearing runs hot from too much oil and the other runs too dry. level they run cool for as long as i've tried. Dave

When you get ready to get your Maka up and running, give me a call if you have any questions.

The Italian style slot mortisers are great machines, i have a Balestrini mortiser in the shop that is in the "to be done later" pile, i would like to get a tenoner again also, i just love the both of them. Balestrini is the only make that i have used, although i had a Greda that i bought for resale once.

A couple of shots from years long gone.

Balestrini ,Mortiser, Tenoner in the background and my old w.klein over and under

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[Joe Calhoon]

For door and window work I like using the Maka for larger mortises and a HC for the small ones just because it is easy to set.
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We used slot slot mortisers and loose tenons for years. There is a nice Kolle slot mortiser for sale on Woodweb that would be a big upgrade from a FD mortiser. These are good all around machines and the Kolle is fairly accurate at doweling.

I mortised a heavy White Oak euro entry door yesterday with the HC just because I did not have the right size chisels for the Maka. Hard to beat the Maka for speed and clean cutting. All the machines have their place though.
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[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Joe,

What brand of HCM is that?

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Brian,
Its a 1960 Wadkin DM. These leave a bit of a rough mortise but this one is easy to set up for low volume work. Usually, I just put a tenoned piece in and crank the table with the small wheel to align by eye. The big wheel is nice for table movement and I prefer the overhand lever to foot operated mortisers. Not a production machine but good for the odd work. Accurate and holds adjustment.
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[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe, looks like a great machine, nice and stout.

[Brian Holcombe]

I wanted to comment that I can cut mortises parallel to the table within .001” using the Felder FD250 and a Leitz HSS birdsmouth bit. An average sized Mortise for furniture takes about 1-2 minutes, so it’s slow by comparison to a Maka
and insubstantial by comparison to a Hofmann or Kolle, but it can repeat clean mortises.

I’ve had trouble with some setups but the birdsmouth bit and LH cutting rotation make for a nice cut.

If I keep my machine I will likely out an outfeed, work stops and a pair of air clamps.

[Brian Holcombe]

Measuring from the reference face on the front

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9719-3949837148-1523220556157.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9721-3466289325-1523220576129.jpg

Measuring from the reference face on the back

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9723-546636161-1523220591448.jpg
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9724-3203503138-1523220604436.jpg

Clean from the front

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9722-1469198615-1523220632888.jpg

Minor chip out exiting the back
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_9725-3388384436-1523220621404.jpg

I realize this is poplar, but that's a pretty decent mortise.

[Mark Hennebury]

C'mon Brian, that's a full half a thou difference.

[Brian Holcombe]

C'mon Brian, that's a full half a thou difference.

:D Time to upgrade.

[Mark Hennebury]

:D Time to upgrade.
Joking aside; I think that you would find the balestrini mortise machine and the tenoner to your liking.
I had used the older style machines the model TAO Tenoner and the 2 CAP mortiser.
The mortiser has a air over oil depth feed control, so it infinitely variable within the range and extremely smooth feed.
The throw / Stroke is a variable throw crank, again infinitely variable.
But by far the most impressive is the mechanics of the throw, it being just like a crank and piston in an engine, it is the absolute smooth transition from one direction to the other just like a piston cresting top dead center; once you have seen it you would not go back to a hand operation with hard stops at the end of the stroke. You simple do not get any bit whip, no keyhole effect ever. Plus the table are tiltable. these are seriously nice machines. That can keep tight tolerances. I also played around with different cutter bits and tried a few different ideas. the birdsmouth bits are not a side cutting bit, no relief angle, yet they are use for side cutting.
The Balestrini tenoner is a brilliant machine; I cut mortise first, then cut tenons to fit, the tenoner is infinitely adjustable in tenon depth, length, width and radius. it has scribing knives and cuts a super clean shoulder, it also has chamfer knives to chamfer the tenon ends, also adjustable for the amount of chamfer. the tables are adjustable and you also has a miter fence so you can do compound tenons for chairs. You can adjust the tenon fit so that its a snug fit on the sides and a couple of thou tighter on the ends or whatever way you want it. They are great machines, and i think that you would really appreciate them. You can get the older ones for a pretty reasonable price and would have to tune them up, but they are industrial grade machines and will last you a lifetime. Once set up in your shop they will expand your horizons, lots of projects would be possible and quite practical to do.

Repeatable precision;


https://youtu.be/Jy2soP-nbZM

[Brian Holcombe]

Hi Mark,

Very much appreciate the recommendation, and detailed description, that sounds exactly what I've been looking for. I'll keep an eye out for such a machine(s) and see if something crops up.

[Joe Calhoon]

I think the Balestrini type tenoner and mortiser are the way to go for furniture and chair work. My setup is great for doors and windows but doing angled tenons for chairs or other furniture parts you can sure see the advantage of a round end tenoner.

[Brian Holcombe]

They look pretty sweet. Can these machines cut double tenons? I am making chairs and furniture, but I dont turn down more generalized work so if doors came my way I would make them as well.

[Mark Hennebury]

They look pretty sweet. Can these machines cut double tenons? I am making chairs and furniture, but I dont turn down more generalized work so if doors came my way I would make them as well.

Brian, they cannot cut double tenons, you would probable have do loose tenons.

[Mark Hennebury]

To be honest, the best setup would be to have Balestrini mortiser and tenoner, A Maka SM6, and a Maka STV, and standard tenoner,(I like the wadkin SET) and round it out with a hollow chisel mortiser, and good set of mortise chisels, Then you pretty well have it covered.

[Kevin Jenness]

I don't know, Mark. I think he is going to need a Martin shaper as well to run those big Euro door and sash cutterheads. No point in pinching pennies.

[Mark Hennebury]

I don't know, Mark. I think he is going to need a Martin shaper as well to run those big Euro door and sash cutterheads. No point in pinching pennies.

I could recommend a few more "absolute necessities" but i didn't want to hit him with everything at once.

[Brian Holcombe]

Haha, you know it’s the direction I’d like to go, so happy to know where I should end up. Very much appreciated!

My friend send me a link to a Hofmann shaper, absolutely ruined me. Like the first really wonderful Japanese plane, it broadens the horizons in a financially destructive fashion. :D

[Mark Hennebury]

Haha, you know it’s the direction I’d like to go, so happy to know where I should end up. Very much appreciated!

My friend send me a link to a Hofmann shaper, absolutely ruined me. Like the first really wonderful Japanese plane, it broadens the horizons in a financially destructive fashion. :D

I completely understand, that's how i felt when i got my first wonderful Japanese plane The Shimohira right angle power feed jointer.

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But then that led to lusting after a Fukami and ..... well lets just say that rabbit hole is real deep.

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[Brian Holcombe]

This thread needs a warning label now. :D

[Joe Calhoon]

I completely understand, that's how i felt when i got my first wonderful Japanese plane The Shimohira right angle power feed jointer.



But then that led to lusting after a Fukami and ..... well lets just say that rabbit hole is real deep.


Mark, The Shimohira jointer looks good! Interesting to see the Japanese take on the edging head for the jointer. That was common on jointers in Europe before all the shops went to S4S machines.

It looks like the side fence and infeed adjustment levers are convenient and robust. That is a weak point of many jointers.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi, Joe,

The Shimohira was a very nice machine with very smooth and solid adjustment.
I have a a bunch more photos of when i had it all apart somewhere, i will take a look this evening and see if i can find them.

I also like the Wadkin PAR with a right angle jointer on one side and a right angle planer on the other.

There were some very nice machines made over the years.