Making a lacquer finish more water proof?

[John Hollander]

I replaced some doors/ drawer faces on a bathroom vanity for a client. The door/drawer faces are made out of cherry and I finished them with lacquer for a durable smooth finish. All pieces were then wiped down with a coat of Johnson's paste wax. The doors have been on for a month and the customer is starting to notice some spots on the doors. Im assuming these are water spots. Is there anything that can be done to make these doors more waterproof?

[Wayne Lomman]

Bathroom timber is better finished with 2 pack polyurethane. It makes the best commercial sense. There is never any call back. I have a wide range of alternatives to choose from, all of which spray well. I would guess you have even more products available. OK, California -- look at waterborne auto refinishing clears and also industrial aliphatic polyurethanes. Cheers

[Patrick Chase]

There are now a fair number of 2K polyurethanes that meet current California VOC requirements.

[John Hollander]

Thanks for the suggestions. Can any of these be applied over the lacquer or would the lacquer need to be completely stripped? I can find a bit of information on the 2k polyurethanes but I’m having difficulty finding a retailer. Where would I find this stuff?

[Wayne Lomman]

You need to strip the lacquer off. You should be able to get a 2 pack polyurethane from any distributor of industrial coatings. I can easily get Valspar, Ameron, International, Jotun, Resene, PPG and Dulux. All are from distributors warehouses. I have casual cash accounts. They know I am a tradesman so I get 10% off as well. You should be able to find similar places to purchase. Avoid straight retail shops if you like what's in your wallet. Cheers

[John TenEyck]

You may find it easier to buy one of Target Coatings or General Finishes products. They both make some very good waterborne coatings suitable for a bathroom vanity. Both make a conversion varnish. TC's EM2000 alkyd varnish is another I would consider.

John

[John Kee]

Best to read about the health issues associated with 2K polyurethanes and take the appropriate precautions when spraying. Sounds like a great finish but is expensive compared to other finishes. The article below covers the pro and cons.

https://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blogs/2k-polyurethane-could-catch-on-soon-in-the-u-s

[Patrick Chase]

You may find it easier to buy one of Target Coatings or General Finishes products. They both make some very good waterborne coatings suitable for a bathroom vanity. Both make a conversion varnish. TC's EM2000 alkyd varnish is another I would consider.

None of those are in the same category as a 2K poly in terms of wear/water resistance, though they're obviously going to be a lot easier to handle and work with. Given that the client started to see damage within a month with lacquer, I'd question whether a WB CV or EM2000 would be enough of a step up to ensure adequate performance. The client in this instance would appear to not be very protective of their bathroom furniture.

[Patrick Chase]

I replaced some doors/ drawer faces on a bathroom vanity for a client. The door/drawer faces are made out of cherry and I finished them with lacquer for a durable smooth finish. All pieces were then wiped down with a coat of Johnson's paste wax. The doors have been on for a month and the customer is starting to notice some spots on the doors. Im assuming these are water spots. Is there anything that can be done to make these doors more waterproof?

Looking more closely and thinking about this some more, those spots are on a vertical drawer face where water shouldn't be able to stand for long enough to compromise lacquer. It also looks to me like whatever got on there penetrated the lacquer and damaged the underlying stain. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it was splashed with acetone (nail polish remover). I think you should be focussing on a bathroom-chemical-proof finish in addition to just waterproofness.

That being the case the WB conversion varnishes that John suggested might do the trick. Target's em8000 withstands standing acetone in KCMA testing with "softening but full recovery" IIRC. Given how quickly acetone evaporates in the wild that's overkill.

[John C Cox]

Any chance that some soap or chemical touched the paste wax and left a hazy spot in the wax... And a fresh rub with Johnsons would take care of it?

But.... That is a very good point about chemicals in the bathroom.... Many bathroom cleaners (like Lysol) can do a job on lacquer finishes... Hair spray, hair dye, nail polish and their removers - including their propellants - are nasty stuff and will do a job on lacquer...

I think I would lean towards one of the new indestructible urethane finishes for this application....

[John Kee]

John H. can you share what product you used. Having used a lot of EM2000 in the past I can attest to it resistance and durability for what it's worth. Any water dries without spotting, don't know how it would hold up to a direct acetone spill or constant cleaning with Lysol or Mr.Clean. The use of harsh cleaners should be addressed when the product is installed.

I would be interested to hear what WB 2K Poly are available that are California compliant. Web search does not show a lot. The only reasonably safe product I've heard about comes from ICA and I've been told its an all around pain to spray.

[Patrick Chase]

John H. can you share what product you used. Having used a lot of EM2000 in the past I can attest to it resistance and durability for what it's worth. Any water dries without spotting, don't know how it would hold up to a direct acetone spill or constant cleaning with Lysol or Mr.Clean. The use of harsh cleaners should be addressed when the product is installed.

Err, it's for a bathroom. If the finish can't take harsh cleaners and nail-polish remover then it probably doesn't belong in the bathroom to begin with. I think that was the point Wayne was attempting to make when he recommended 2K Poly.

w.r.t. EM2000 and Acetone, the data sheet (https://www.targetcoatings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/TC_TechDataSheet_EM2000_R3.pdf) says that the film softens but fully recovers after 4 hours of exposure to Acetone and then 4 hours of recovery time. See the KCMA results on the second page.

[Wayne Lomman]

Let's dispel some myths here -- 2 pack polyurethanes are NOT difficult to use. They are designed to spray and suffer NONE of the constant stream of complaints about the sprayability of common retail products. Their formulation renders them suitable for use nearly everywhere up to and including petrochemical plants, pulp mills etc. Bathroom chemicals do not bother them. They are not difficult to wash up if you use the correct solvent. The only annoying bit is if you find you mixed up a teaspoon not enough. They have a good pot life. They have been on the market for about 60 or 70 years, The health hazards are well understood and the controls are simple - ventilation and an organic vapour respirator. They cost a bit more per litre than an alkyd but the performance is light years in front of the alkyd. They are quite high solids so the cost per litre is not as bad as it looks. You get what you pay for. Cheers

[John Hollander]

John H. can you share what product you used. Having used a lot of EM2000 in the past I can attest to it resistance and durability for what it's worth. Any water dries without spotting, don't know how it would hold up to a direct acetone spill or constant cleaning with Lysol or Mr.Clean. The use of harsh cleaners should be addressed when the product is installed.

I would be interested to hear what WB 2K Poly are available that are California compliant. Web search does not show a lot. The only reasonably safe product I've heard about comes from ICA and I've been told its an all around pain to spray.

I used 3 medium coats of Miniwax gloss lacquer, followed by one medium coat of Miniwax satin lacquer. Once the final coat was dry I did a very fine rub down with some 000 steel wool to knock down any nubs and then applied a coat of Johnsons paste wax to the finish.

I inquired with the customer about the use of any / possible contact with harsh chemicals like bleach or acetone, but they assured me that nothing like this ever touched the cabinet.

I like the idea of the 2k Poly, but I don't have a commercial finishing setup and I'm a bit concerned about the health risks. I also haven't found any California complaint products.

Do you have any experience with how EM2000 sprays with an HVLP sprayer?

[Wayne Lomman]

The hazards with polyurethane are breathing the aerosols. Protect yourself from that and you are good to go. As I said above the hazards of polyurethane are well understood. By contrast, your contemporary waterborne products do not have a long enough history of use to come anywhere near the quality of the science behind polyurethane safety. Polyurethane in its solid form is very safe and universally used for food and potable water contact. You only require protection while is is airborne. I did a quick google search for '2K polyurethane California compliant' and there are truckloads of alternatives. Cheers

[John Kee]

Wayne what brand of 2K are you using in Taz and typically what projects do you use it on. The price/gallon would also be good for comparison. When talking to my Sherwin Williams tech rep he says the product for wood is going to operations producing tabletops. One of the issues is from them its only available in 5 gallon pails.

[Wayne Lomman]

John, I am using Valspar Poly-U-750 Clear. It is from their heavy duty industrial range. I am surprised that you can only purchase in 20 litres. I can buy all my urethanes in 5 litres or 20 litres. I'm currently paying $AU25 per litre for product that is around 60% solids. I don't know if that is a common brand where you are. Ameron do a comparable product in similar packaging. I mostly use it for wet area finishing and bench tops. For coloured work I am using International's Interthane 990. It is similarly priced. I am going to change to a new urethane from International when it is released shortly. It is Interthane something, I justcant remember the code. Cheers

[Patrick Chase]

I inquired with the customer about the use of any / possible contact with harsh chemicals like bleach or acetone, but they assured me that nothing like this ever touched the cabinet.

Hmm, given that this is a bathroom drawer I wouldn't want to put myself in the position of telling a customer that they shouldn't use chemicals like that (or admitting that a bathroom finish that I had applied might fail if they did). A bathroom cabinet that can't withstand that stuff simply isn't functionally suitable to its task. People do apply and remove nail polish in their bathrooms, and bathrooms sometimes require cleaning with bleach as a matter of sanitation.

[John Kee]

Unfortunately Patrick customers have to be educated on how to take care of any high quality wood product in their home and the consequence of improper cleaning methods. This education begins when you are contacted to make a piece and continues when the type finish is discussed and after its delivered/installed. 2K poly can't cover all the scenario's customers can come up with. Just like customers have to told about proper humidity levels in the home to prevent warping and buckling of solid hardwood floors and how to clean/maintain the many diverse finishes used today. People are generally dumb as shite when it comes to this.