Combination plane versus hollows and rounds

[Tony Wilkins]

I was actually watching a video of someone using a round plane when I thought of Derek talking about the LV combination plane. A pair (or if I win the lottery a half set of) hollows and rounds is on my wish list but now I’m wondering how a combination plane with fluting and beading blades compares.

this may be a silly question but: how do they these compare?

[Patrick Chase]

I was actually watching a video of someone using a round plane when I thought of Derek talking about the LV combination plane. A pair (or if I win the lottery a half set of) hollows and rounds is on my wish list but now I’m wondering how a combination plane with fluting and beading blades compares.

this may be a silly question but: how do they these compare?

If all you want to do is cut flutes and beads the combo will do the job perfectly well, though not the equal of a dedicated plane with a proper sole and mouth.

The only combo planes that I know of that can actually cut hollows and rounds are the 45 when used with a set of dedicated "auxiliary soles" and the 55. I have the 55, and it's a lot more hassle to use than a real hollow or round, but it can get the job done. The 45 is supposed to be easier to use for H&Rs, but the auxiliary soles and cutters aren't widely available (to the point where a set of "well-used" H&R planes might be cheaper).

The thing to realize about hollows and rounds is that they (in combination with snipe bills, side rounds, and a rabbet plane) can stick basically any moulding profile. See Matt Bickford's book for details. I wouldn't want to use a combo plane to execute the sorts of precision cuts required to do that, though.

[Jim Koepke]

They are as different as apples and oranges.

Though like apples and oranges they are similar in some ways.

On a combination plane such as the Stanley #45 the beading blades and the fluting blades make a half circle. With a hollow and round plane the arc is only a sixth of a circle.

Each type of plane can be coaxed to some what mimic the other, it will be difficult to make a true ogee profile with a combination plane just as it will be difficult to make reeding or fluting with hollows and rounds.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

They are very different tools. You cannot cut grooves or beads with a set of hollows and rounds.

They do a nice job hollowing and rounding though.

A half set might not set you back as much as you think. It has been a couple of years, but I got a set from Jim Bode for way less than what the LV combination plane goes for.

[Patrick Chase]

They are very different tools. You cannot cut grooves or beads with a set of hollows and rounds.

You can bead with hollows and snipe-bills, but it's nobody's idea of a good time.

[Jim Koepke]

It has been a couple of years, but I got a set from Jim Bode for way less than what the LV combination plane goes for.

It surprised me to see a few mixed sets on his site for ~$300.

His sets from a single maker look to start out at ~$400.

For those that do not know a set with all the planes, of the same age, made by the same maker is preferred by many.

The mixed sets on the Jim Bode site look to be what are known as "double harlequin" sets. This means a pair of planes from a particular size are made by different makers.

A "harlequin" set has the H&R pairs made by the same maker but the different sizes are from different makers.

Having a set matched to one maker is nice, but not necessary for good work.

jtk

[David Bassett]

... The 45 is supposed to be easier to use for H&Rs, but the auxiliary soles and cutters aren't widely available (to the point where a set of "well-used" H&R planes might be cheaper). ...

I'd never heard of these. I just searched Jim Bode's site and they have a complete set of (four pair) hollow & round blades & soles. They are interesting. It seems they'd work well with a full sole for each size. But they're twice what a mixed half set (nine pair) of wooden hollow & round planes cost. There must not have been that many 45 sets sold back in the day....

[lowell holmes]

I have both skew rabbet planes and the plow rabbet plane.

I wish I had bought the combination plane and been done with it.

[Tom M King]

One big advantage of hollows and rounds is that you can go in either direction on a board, whereas a combination plane can only go one way. You can deal with reversing grain with hollows and rounds, but you have to pick the piece of wood very carefully for a combination plane.

For beads, other than edge beads, I prefer a scratch beader anyway, if I don't have a center beading molding plane in the right size. I don't remember ever running beads with a combination plane.

I do a fair amount of matching old moldings, and the combination planes only get the call when needed, since it's hard enough to find a fairly good grain match to adjoining, old parts as it is, without having to worry about grain direction too.

[Jim Koepke]

One big advantage of hollows and rounds is that you can go in either direction on a board, whereas a combination plane can only go one way.

A combination plane may be more versatile than one might think:

382805

Some combination planes, including the Stanley #45 before type 7 (1895) can only be used right handed. The later Stanley #45s, all the #55s and to the best of my knowledge the Veritas Combination plane can be set up for use left handed.

jtk

[Tom M King]

That's most often of no practical benefit though. If one is in the middle of making a piece of molding with a board you like, and the grain changes direction, you simply just switch hands with a hollow or round. That is why snipe bills, and half rounds come in pairs though.

I have two 55's, but I wouldn't even have the patience to set up the second one to mirror the first one, much less switch back and forth in the middle of making one piece of molding with one combination plane.

[Patrick Chase]

I'd never heard of these. I just searched Jim Bode's site and they have a complete set of (four pair) hollow & round blades & soles. They are interesting. It seems they'd work well with a full sole for each size. But they're twice what a mixed half set (nine pair) of wooden hollow & round planes cost. There must not have been that many 45 sets sold back in the day....

Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said that a set of used H&R planes might be cheaper :-)

IMO the realities of the used market are such that those H&R aux soles only make sense if you have very limited space or a metal plane fetish. Otherwise wooden H&Rs are the way to go.

[Patrick Chase]

I have two 55's, but I wouldn't even have the patience to set up the second one to mirror the first one, much less switch back and forth in the middle of making one piece of molding with one combination plane.

I don't have enough patience to set up *one* 55. That's why I also have a 45-ish plane (the Veritas). I suspect I'm not alone in that regard.

[Alan Schwabacher]

If you want to see a comparison of Stanley combination planes with wooden single-purpose ones, episode 16 of season 33 of the Woodwright's shop is on that topic, and available here: http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-combination-planes/

[David Bassett]

If you want to see a comparison of Stanley combination planes with wooden single-purpose ones, episode 16 of season 33 of the Woodwright's shop is on that topic, and available here: http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-combination-planes/

Roy compares the Combo / Universal planes (45 / 55) with dedicated wooden planes for several standard functions up to a complex molding. He doesn't get to using either as hollow or rounds though.

[steven c newman]

Can only do so much in a half hour show.

I'd rather have ONE plane in the shop that can do many types of jobs, rather than sort through a shelf full of planes that were made for just one type of job. Some people prefer to just change the entire plane...I just change a cutter. Then put the plane back in it's box when done.

The Stanley 55 usually has 52-55 different cutters.....taking the place of that many single purpose planes. IF one takes the time to LEARN how to use the combo planes, they find out there is really no trouble to quickly set up for a cut. The 45 is even quicker to set up and use, and then change to another cutter, and use again.

One can also buy a few extra straight cutters, and regrind the edges into whatever special shapes needed. Including hollow and rounds. I did to get a 5/8" round....or was it a hollow....needed a round bottomed groove to house a few drill bits.

[Tom M King]

For the same simple jobs, like running grooves, a 55 is really not more trouble than other combination planes.

In doing this for a living, I need to produce work, and time spent fiddling with tools is not enjoyed by me, with sometimes and audience watching, because I know it's not that enjoyable for them either. People get drawn in when work is being produced though.

Making moldings is just a small part of what I do for a living, but it can be the most intriguing for people watching though. Since the people watching are often the same people doing the paying, it ends up being an important part of the whole job. It also puts the final finishing touches on what might have been a very long, slow overall job.

I often may only need to make one three to five foot piece, to replace something that's missing, but needs to match the adjacent parts. If I can make it in fifteen minutes, it's okay. If it took an hour, it would be painful. It's totally different than doing something as a hobby, where time spent doesn't matter.

Picture shows one of my 55's running a groove in a Heart Pine replacement rail for wainscoting in an 1828 house. This is an old picture, but I'm sure the combination plane got the call because I didn't have an exact match in a dedicated grooving plane. Shavings in the air are short because the grain is rising sharply ahead of the plane. I just copied and pasted the picture off of my website, so apologies if it's too large.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/images/novdec2012_012.JPG

[steven c newman]

It generally takes me longer to set up a jig to hold the work, than to set up the 45. usually 3-5 MINUTES for both. Due to health issues ( including a bad back) I can only work in the shop for a few hours...2-4 being about all I can take. Not really enough room in the shop to have people standing around, looking over my shoulder, anyway.

Maybe we should time a set up? To see just how long it ACTUALLY takes to set up? fairly easy, IF all you do is one cut.....I usually am set up to do an entire drawer's cuts...with a change-over to do the back's dado thrown in.

[Patrick Chase]

For the same simple jobs, like running grooves, a 55 is really not more trouble than other combination planes.

It is if the main fence (the one you use for simple work) is ever-so-slightly tilted out of vertical and you don't take the time to check it before you start working. Or if the secondary skate is raised/lowered relative to the primary, though that's easier to spot during setup.

[Jim Koepke]

Combination planes are definitely not for the impatient or those who feel they must perform quickly.

When one learns the little nuances and foibles it becomes quick and easy to set one up.

For slotting box and drawer bottom stock a #50 is sitting on a shelf ready to go.

jtk