Electric Cars - I'm Trying to be Open Minded

[Andrew Joiner]

A good friend was ecstatic about his new Nissan Leaf. He'd say"Lots of advantages, no oil changes! 90 mile range with no heat or air conditioning" He got around fine. That was 4 years ago. Recently I saw him walking. He said " thank goodness there's 2 chargers in town now my range dropped drastically" As of today he drives a gas car. He's waiting for a new electric car that's coming out in a year, presumably promising more than the Leaf promised.

Ok, I do research for fun on the latest electric vehicles to see what I'm missing. Searching range, "battery life", cost and depreciation.

Now a new term comes up "range anxiety". I believe it!

My neighbor has a Tesla with a trailer hitch. Interesting. Yesterday a new hi-tech looking fiberglass "Happier Camper Trailer" shows up. Another thing I shake my head at. I get "range anxiety" just looking at this!

I might be biased. I own several quality tools that I can't use because the proprietary batteries are shot. New batteries cost nearly as much as new usually better tools with new batteries. So I buy new tools. Cars that need batteries? Seems like I might have the same problem as I had with tools.

A friend who owns 2 (gas)car repair shops says " the green aspect goes way down when you consider battery disposal long term".
I know, they don't pollute as much, but what else am I missing?

[Bill Dufour]

I hear a replacement battery for a tesla is $30,000. I would think 5 years is a fair life before range drops off too much. I understand some use propane for heating in winter. AC uses a lot of power.
Bil lD.

[Jim Becker]

Electric vehicles are here to stay and there clearly are going to be a lot more of them going forward. Battery technology is also improving "daily" which should help with things like range and battery life. That said, they are not (currently) for every need and are generally best for urban commuting type driving. Like any battery powered "thing", how one treats charge/discharge will have an effect on battery life and folks need to pay attention to that.

Personally, I prefer the hybrid model for more general driving, where you benefit from electric power economy for lower speed, stop and go travel and "unlimited" range when traveling. I really like the way the Volt is designed in that respect...it's all electric with a small gasoline engine that's essentially a generator to recharge while traveling longer distances. And many hybrids have extraordinary "get up and go" because of the torque advantages that electric motors have. The Hylander Hybrid Limited I owned prior to my present vehicle took off like a race car if I had to stomp on it...such as trying to get out of my own driveway with peek traffic streaming by without getting killed. :)

[glenn bradley]

There is plenty of info on the actual impact footprint of an electric car in the current state of technology. You are not going to save the planet but, you are helping forward the idea. Since so much in oriented around the care and feeding of the internal combustion engine . . . well, here we are. You can always say that if we started earlier in putting the push we are putting today behind alternatives we would be farther along but, we didn't. Many electric cars offered today are throw-aways to folks of average means; the average annual maintenance cost is not yet in line with what we are used to over the life of a car. Do it if you can but, don't expect to retire on the savings :).

[Rick Potter]

I have to admit I am in a 'best case' scenario. I am in SoCal, and put solar on my home a few years ago. Enough panels that I didn't use all it produced. I decided to get an electric car, but the range anxiety thing stopped me for a while. No way was an all electric (BEV) going to suit me, so I investigated Plug in Hybrids, like the Chevy Volt.

The plug in hybrids can run a certain distance on all electric if you want, and when the juice runs out the motor kicks in, and you now have a normal hybrid, like an old Prius. I decided in 2013 on a Ford C-Max Energi. We got this car because it was the most SUV like available at that time. It goes 20 miles or so on electric. It will cruise just fine at 75-80 MPH on all electric, do it all the time. This 20 miles has been pretty close to what I drive on my running around, so it doesn't go to the gas motor that often. I gas up every 4 months or so.

This was fine until the wife decided she really liked it and stole it from me. I did the only thing any red blooded car guy would do, and bought another...2014. Hers is running at 195 MPG for actual gas used since new, and mine is about 95 MPG, because I do more trips over 20 miles than she does. Mine has been taken on trips to Idaho and Wyoming twice, and never plugged in at all, just run on gas.

We always plug it in when we get home, and keep it fully charged. No battery degradation on either car that we have noticed. Batteries are guaranteed to last 100K, I think, but 150K by CA state law.

In your situation, I would not consider a pure BEV. The biggest problem would be the heater. Electric heaters take a lot of juice. You could just run on the motor in cold weather, which makes the heater more efficient. Interestingly, I use the A/C a lot, and it does not seem to use that much. I would recommend looking at plug in hybrids if I lived in your area. It has the advantage of both types, and the new crop goes farther than mine, like up to 50 miles or so, then the motor comes on.

Caveat: The older Prius plug in's would not really drive on battery unless you really featherfoot it. On my car you can lock it in electric if you want. The new Prius plug in is just fine, though.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

On the subject of hybrids, we rented one last fall and drove it for about 10 days. It was amazing to average 49 mpg. The only problem I found was in some of the steep parking lots in Branson, MO, with the automatic transmission, it was gutless getting started if you were parked on a steep grade. Other than the start on a steep incline, on the highway it had plenty of power for passing and accelerating under normal driving conditions. Living in a town that is stepped up a hill of 700' in elevation and to climb 2,000' of elevation in any direction leaving town, I'm not sure I'd want to own one as my daily driver.

[roger wiegand]

Apparently there are some Model S Tesla's (the expensive one) that have been employed as fleet vehicles for a number of years from now that are hitting the 500-600,000 mile mark and still going strong. The maintenance costs on them have been so low that they are ending up considerably cheaper in terms of lifetime cost of ownership than the $30-50K cars that were bought in parallel with them. Mechanically, electric cars are dramatically simpler to build and maintain. Not so meaningful perhaps for those of us who only drive 10,000 miles a year, but suddenly very interesting for a car-sharing or fleet use scenario where cars rack up 100K+ miles a year. Any decline in the price of batteries or increase in their performance will only make this difference bigger.

A whole lot of my younger colleagues choose not to own a car at all, but rely on things like Zipcar to have a car when they need one (plus, of course Lyft and Uber). I suspect this may be yet another shake-up coming for the auto industry in the next decade or two, the economics may well drive a lot of people away from having personal automobiles and drive the owners of those vehicles towards electrics.

With a range over 300 miles now there's not much cause for range anxiety for everyday driving. Oh, and they go like a bat out of you-know-where.

[Mike Cutler]

Andrew

The pure electric don't have the range. Yet. They will some day. For now Hybrids are the way to go.
Battery technology will change, and evolve, along with that performance will increase.

I wouldn't sweat the HappieCamper trailer. The trend to lighten trailers has been going on for many years. Gas, hybrid, or electric. Lightening the trailer load improves range.
Our horse trailer is a fiberglass composite structure made by Brenderup. It weighs 2200lbs. and can haul it's own weight in horses. Because of it's low weight, it doesn't require an electric braking system. It uses an inertia braking system.

[Bill Dufour]

No reason the camper trailer can't have a propane engine generator running while the car is moving to top up the car battery on a long trip.
Bill D

[Art Mann]

Just yesterday, I did a 350 mile round trip in my SUV. That isn't unusual for me. It would have been an overnight trip in a Tesla. We also enjoy cross country trips where we drive 300+ miles a day. I don't want to plan my vacations around charging stations. I would like to enjoy the benefits of a plug in car but it isn't worth it to own two vehicles.

My big problem with electric vehicles is that the government has to pay people to buy them. I don't enjoy subsidizing car companies and car buyers with my tax dollars. Some day, the technology will be able to stand on its own but not today.

[Nathan Johnson]

I need to buy a big v6 or v8 sedan while I still can.

[Chris Parks]

Tesla is old news unfortunately but they kick started the whole electric thing and for that the world will be grateful. The Europeans are very close to launching their first all electric cars and the first ones will recharge to 80% in under 30 minutes, have a cup of coffee and it is done. Tesla are about to get buried in the avalanche when the Europeans wind up their production capacity and China is ramping up their requirements for manufacturers to have a sales target they have to meet.

https://www.ft.com/content/00b36a30-a4dd-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2

[Edwin Santos]

Tesla is old news unfortunately but they kick started the whole electric thing and for that the world will be grateful. The Europeans are very close to launching their first all electric cars and the first ones will recharge to 80% in under 30 minutes, have a cup of coffee and it is done. Tesla are about to get buried in the avalanche when the Europeans wind up their production capacity and China is ramping up their requirements for manufacturers to have a sales target they have to meet.

https://www.ft.com/content/00b36a30-a4dd-11e7-9e4f-7f5e6a7c98a2

Chris,
I know the thread is about cars, but isn't there more to Tesla than just cars? I read about their success in Jamestown, Australia deploying a grid scale system in 100 days that is supposedly the largest battery deployment of its kind, and they're planning on another in Victoria.
I don't know much about the worldwide electric car market, but I'm amazed at Tesla. They're still a young company with lots of obstacles to overcome, but the audacious things they've accomplished so far seem borderline impossible. The Gigafactory, the supercharger network, the ability to manufacture in the US, their success at bucking the dealer sales model.
Edwin

[Peter Kelly]

GM will be phasing out gas and diesel vehicles within the next 5 years. http://www.gm.com/mol/m-2017-oct-1002-electric.html
Volvo, Aston Martin & Jaguar / Land Rover have announced similar plans. I'd expect other manufacturers to follow.

Norway is moving forward with an outright ban on petroleum cars by 2025: https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/norway-to-ban-the-sale-of-all-fossil-fuel-based-cars-by-2025-and-replace-with-electric-vehicles-a7065616.html

[Chris Parks]

Chris,
I know the thread is about cars, but isn't there more to Tesla than just cars? I read about their success in Jamestown, Australia deploying a grid scale system in 100 days that is supposedly the largest battery deployment of its kind, and they're planning on another in Victoria.
I don't know much about the worldwide electric car market, but I'm amazed at Tesla. They're still a young company with lots of obstacles to overcome, but the audacious things they've accomplished so far seem borderline impossible. The Gigafactory, the supercharger network, the ability to manufacture in the US, their success at bucking the dealer sales model.
Edwin

Yes, they put in this http://theconversation.com/a-month-in-teslas-sa-battery-is-surpassing-expectations-89770 There were some noises about fitting every home in South Australia with solar and batteries but SA recently had a change of state government and that may change things. This is Victoria's battery http://www.afr.com/business/energy/wind-energy/now-victoria-is-getting-a-big-tesla-battery-powered-by-frenchbuilt-wind-farm-20180103-h0d66q

It is going to be interesting on what happens with Tesla as they struggle to deal with so many projects, cars, new models, trucks, space vehicles etc.

[Art Mann]

Peter, I followed the link and read the information there. I didn't see anything about GM phasing out internal combustion engines. They obviously want to go in that direction but the market will determine what they will build in 5 years. They have yet to manufacture even one vehicle that would be successful without government subsidies. In my estimation, it will take longer than 5 years for electric cars to evolve into machines that can compete on an even footing with internal combustion engines. You are looking at things from the perspective of someone who lives in a big city. Much of the country is radically different from what you see through your eyes.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I seriously doubt it will happen in the next 20 years or so until the battery technology or some other power source becomes available and economically feasible. Economics will drive it. In 1968 I wrote a college preparatory English paper on the upcoming oil shortage and the how shale oil production would relieve the some of the problem. Well, shale oil still isn't that profitable, they have found new oil reserves to produce and cars have acquired better MPG. The prediction in 1968 by the oil producers was that normal oil production as we know would not make it into the next century. It did. Economics will drive it.

[Chris Parks]

Peter, I followed the link and read the information there. I didn't see anything about GM phasing out internal combustion engines. They obviously want to go in that direction but the market will determine what they will build in 5 years. They have yet to manufacture even one vehicle that would be successful without government subsidies. In my estimation, it will take longer than 5 years for electric cars to evolve into machines that can compete on an even footing with internal combustion engines. You are looking at things from the perspective of someone who lives in a big city. Much of the country is radically different from what you see through your eyes.

The less developed parts of the world have not got the infrastructure to run electric vehicles so there is going to have to be some sort of parallel support for internal combustion engine. Australia, Africa and Russia would be the big problems before you begin to think about isolated parts of other countries. For metro use I would have one tomorrow if the price was realistic, range anxiety is way over blown for anyone who lives in a metro area and I think it will be a non issue in a few years time.

[Chris Parks]

I seriously doubt it will happen in the next 20 years or so until the battery technology or some other power source becomes available and economically feasible. Economics will drive it. In 1968 I wrote a college preparatory English paper on the upcoming oil shortage and the how shale oil production would relieve the some of the problem. Well, shale oil still isn't that profitable, they have found new oil reserves to produce and cars have acquired better MPG. The prediction in 1968 by the oil producers was that normal oil production as we know would not make it into the next century. It did. Economics will drive it.

it will happen well before 20 years, do some reading on what the Europeans and Chinese are doing and that will quickly translate to the US domestic market. The Europeans are now forecasting huge numbers, introducing infrastructure to support those numbers and cities are beginning to set dates for no IC motors and in some cases like Paris they have banned certain cars on certain days

Paris already has car-free days (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-car-ban-day-pollution-climate-change-a7981196.html), car-free zones and fines for drivers using cars more than 20 years old. On 1 October, the most recent car-free day, nitrogen dioxide levels dropped 25 per cent and noise levels dropped by an average of 20 per cent.

Taken from here...https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-copenhagen-oxford-ban-petrol-diesel-cars-emissions-pollution-nitrogen-dioxide-a8000596.html

What has held back the earlier introduction of electric cars after Tesla kick started the whole thing is firstly the disbelief by the manufacturers that it was a good thing and then the R&D time to and the R&D has basically gotten to the point where the Europeans are ramping up production from this year on. Every European manufacturer has to get on board because legislation has forced them too. Their traditional markets have matured in take up and are beginning to drop off in total numbers and the market they do not want to be locked out of is China. The US manufacturers have also recognised this and are pedalling furiously to meet the deadlines set by China. All this is going to spin off to the rest of the world and if you want to make some money buy Lithium shares because the demand is going to be huge.

[Jerome Stanek]

You have to remember that France is smaller than Texas

[Chris Parks]

You have to remember that France is smaller than Texas

And Texas is smaller than Australia.

[Robert Galey]

About 80% of the electricity generated in the USA comes from non-renewable energy sources.. About 65% comes from burning fossil fuels. The net environmental benefit, to the planet, of driving an electric vehicle is about a wash. Long term, in the USA, we'll move more toward the use of natural gas.

[Chris Parks]

About 80% of the electricity generated in the USA comes from non-renewable energy sources.. About 65% comes from burning fossil fuels. The net environmental benefit, to the planet, of driving an electric vehicle is about a wash. Long term, in the USA, we'll move more toward the use of natural gas.

No you won't be, the US is not driving this change and the US manufacturers are in fact going with the flow because they do not want to be left behind, witness their efforts in China. Yes, the electric car is not for everyone but the changes that are coming are to control the exhaust emissions in major metropolitan cities, rural and long distance travel will be the last to change. The day of a national insular approach to car manufacturing is all over and it has turned to a world wide approach. You can see this effect by the way that the large inefficient V8 has lost ground to smaller more efficient motors, if the US manufacturers had their way that change would not have happened and you would still be driving 400 cubic inch monsters in everything. In Australia the same change has happened but here the V8 has entirely disappeared from the showrooms altogether apart from one sole model and they most probably sell about 100 of those in a year.

http://fortune.com/2017/12/01/volkswagen-vw-manufacturing-electric-cars-united-states/

Automakers are also moving the production of parts to China for electric cars. Reliant on very large batteries from South Korea for its electric cars, G.M. is now moving to buy many of its batteries from Chinese suppliers, said Matthew Tsien, the executive vice president who oversees G.M.’s extensive China operations. That helps the company qualify for Chinese electric car subsidies that require considerable domestic content.
“We do see China being, in the near and medium term at least, by far the largest market for electric vehicles in the world,” Dan Ammann, G.M.’s president, said in an interview in New York this week. “But we believe ultimately that the whole world will go that direction.”
Taken from here https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/business/energy-environment/electric-cars-china.html

[Dan Friedrichs]

My big problem with electric vehicles is that the government has to pay people to buy them. I don't enjoy subsidizing car companies and car buyers with my tax dollars. Some day, the technology will be able to stand on its own but not today.

Art, not to get political, but there are enormous governmental subsidies for the oil and gas industry, and they total MUCH more than the relatively small amount allocated to the EV program (which begins to phase out as more vehicles are sold)

[Chris Parks]

And the US government bailed out the manufacturers for how much when things got bad?

[Pat Barry]

So far electric car racing is not catching on and until it does a significant source of development is missing. Racing drives innovation

[Chris Parks]

I think every major European manufacturer is involved in Formula E. You guys have to stop drinking the kool aid and do some reading of what is happening in the rest of the world. If the president of GM says the world is going that way then the US will go that way along with the rest of us.

[Curt Harms]

Apparently there are some Model S Tesla's (the expensive one) that have been employed as fleet vehicles for a number of years from now that are hitting the 500-600,000 mile mark and still going strong. The maintenance costs on them have been so low that they are ending up considerably cheaper in terms of lifetime cost of ownership than the $30-50K cars that were bought in parallel with them. Mechanically, electric cars are dramatically simpler to build and maintain. Not so meaningful perhaps for those of us who only drive 10,000 miles a year, but suddenly very interesting for a car-sharing or fleet use scenario where cars rack up 100K+ miles a year. Any decline in the price of batteries or increase in their performance will only make this difference bigger.

A whole lot of my younger colleagues choose not to own a car at all, but rely on things like Zipcar to have a car when they need one (plus, of course Lyft and Uber). I suspect this may be yet another shake-up coming for the auto industry in the next decade or two, the economics may well drive a lot of people away from having personal automobiles and drive the owners of those vehicles towards electrics.

With a range over 300 miles now there's not much cause for range anxiety for everyday driving. Oh, and they go like a bat out of you-know-where.

I think that depends on where you live. I suspect electrics make a ton of sense in urban areas. For someone living in a one horse town in the Great Plains less so.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

The gas engine has a limited future at the rate we are burning the limited supply here on earth. Electric has some advantages and some disadvantages and many things to be worked out. If the hype about Mr. Tesla is true, he developed an unlimited range vehicle that ran on some kind of radiation from space. There are several reports of people developing motors that were powered by the earth's magnetic field. A town in Switzerland still uses a power system developed by Mr. Tesla to "harvest" static electricity from the wind on top the mountain.

Has anyone ever searched for underground lines using two metal rods. I know it works, because I can do it and have taught others, many who were skeptical. There is a force which causes those metal rods to move. It isn't much, but it is a force that has a mechanical action. I don't find it hard to believe that someone can find a way to use that force. An acquaintance of mine goes for years without ever driving more than 10 miles a day, because of vision problems she never drives at night. For her an electric car would be perfect.

We speak of range till the battery(ies) need to be recharged. If batteries were standardized, they could simply be replaced at a station, like pulling in the fill the gas tank, but they exchange batteries. turn in your drained battery for a charged one. I keep three batteries for my Dewalt power tools. Seems like a simple idea. No more range anxiety. Some engineering guy in India developed a car that runs on compressed air. A small engine runs constantly to compress air in the tank. It takes about 2 hours to fully charge the air tank to max safe pressure and 15 minutes to run it down. Not much range. But if I only travel 5 miles to work, and stay for 8 hours, what is the problem?

Another part of the problem, is that here in the North, vehicle regulations are stacked so much against light weight commuter vehicles. Must have all wheel brakes, must have this, must have that. There is no reason why an electric scooter should not be permitted as a commuter vehicle in 25 MPH zones on city streets and bike paths. The former Coronor of Lancaster County PA, purchased an electric vehicle to commute the 2 miles to work. A Gemcar. When it came in, he could not get it licensed because it did not meet the minimum state requirements to be on the road.. yet Gem cars are legal road machines in several southern states.

30 years ago, I had an employee that was a huge bicycle travel freak. He got a kit from somewhere to put solar panels on the bicycle to have a solar electric assist to powering the bicycle. In tidewater Virginia, where things are very flat, he claimed, that once up to speed, it would do 11 mph with no peddling after attaining that cruising speed. I tried the bike on a level shopping center parking lot and it was amazing. Peddle until moving and then just stop peddling and it was like coasting along indefinitely on level ground. He ended up with traffic citations for an unlicensed unregistered motor vehicle. There is no reason for such laws inside a city or town where traffic and parking savings could be significant.

During the first big gasoline shortages of the 1970's there was a "out there" proposal to ship non perishable items across the country from west to east by a tethered blimp system. Each blimp would be tethered to an above ground mono rail and let the westerly wind blow the blimp across the country from west to east where the blimp could be un loaded and deflated for a return trip, provided by the pulling from all those blimps being blown eastward. The idea sounds both incredibly stupid and incredibly good at the same time. Imagine thousands of tons of freight moved 3,000 miles east with next to no energy. It isn't much different than the old clipper ships hauling freight across the oceans.

Between range, battery cost, etc, electric and hybrid vehicles may not be as good as touted, but with sufficient research and development and testing, I think the day is definitely coming.

[Art Mann]

Duplicate post.

[Art Mann]

True but irrelevant. That isn't the subject of conversation. I don't approve of the government subsidizing any private company except where it involves national security. One bad policy does not justify the existence of another.

The subsidies of electric cars are small because not very many people want one even if the government pays for part of it.



Art, not to get political, but there are enormous governmental subsidies for the oil and gas industry, and they total MUCH more than the relatively small amount allocated to the EV program (which begins to phase out as more vehicles are sold)

[Dan Friedrichs]

The subsidies of electric cars are small because not very many people want one even if the government pays for part of it.

I'm curious why you think that. Over 500,000 people have put down a deposit for Tesla model 3. That's one model from one manufacturer. And this is for a car that no one has even seen, yet! The day they started taking reservations, there was a line at my local mall that stretched through the entire mall and outside into the parking lot. People waited hours. People clearly want electric cars.

It seems like some people have the feeling that electric cars are somehow an affront to their way of life, and I just don't understand why...

[Art Mann]

Yes, the Model 3 hysteria reminds me of the introduction of the Chrysler PT Cruiser in ~2000. The quantities are similar. I was in Toluca Mexico for the launch. There are many similarities between the two situations. At one time, production was backlogged by 6 months. People were paying several thousand dollars above MSRP to get one.

Unlike the Tesla, the Mexicans launched at near the design line rate. They increased capacity by 50% over in less than 6 months. Tesla is just now beginning to experience what it is like to compete with the mainstream companies with cars designed for the average customer. Results so far have not been promising. Their publicists are telling us that Tesla launch problems are common to the industry but it is a lie. I have been a part of maybe 25 new model launches and none of them even approached the (Tesla admitted) chaos at the Tesla plant.

I hope Tesla becomes the first company to design and market a good electric car that appeals to the masses. The Model 3 promises to be that but impulse demand doesn't prove that any more than the PT Cruiser backlog proved that it was a better car than the Neon from which it was derived. I am just waiting to see if it will survive the test of time. The PT didn't.

As I said before, the real appeal of electric cars won't be measured until the government stops paying people to by them.

[Rick Potter]

Wonder what happened to the OP?

[Andrew Joiner]

Sorry, I was making more popcorn.

I'm a value oriented buyer as I age (also called frugal). Since 1977 I've bought mostly new vehicles except for classics.
My current car is a 2006 Scion XB. My priorities were based on low cost to buy and operate and a high interior volume/MPG ratio. It's a great car with low miles that should keep meeting my needs for awhile.

I'm attracted to time proven designs and simplicity. Especially in higher expense things like cars. My experience with tool batteries has me questioning the actual battery life of EV's. A hybrid isn't simple and costs more than a high mpg economy car. I know I'm just an old closed minded frugal woodworker:)

For fun I pretend to shop around a little for vehicles to see if I'm missing out. So I guess I'm just kicking tires with this thread. Thanks for all the comments.

[William Young]

Personally, I prefer the hybrid model for more general driving, where you benefit from electric power economy for lower speed, stop and go travel and "unlimited" range when traveling. I really like the way the Volt is designed in that respect...it's all electric with a small gasoline engine that's essentially a generator to recharge while traveling longer distances. And many hybrids have extraordinary "get up and go" because of the torque advantages that electric motors have. The Hylander Hybrid Limited I owned prior to my present vehicle took off like a race car if I had to stomp on it...such as trying to get out of my own driveway with peek traffic streaming by without getting killed. :)

Jim, It has been a few years since I read about the Volt. So, things could have changed by now. I at first understood that they would charge the batteries while traveling down the road on engine power. I then read that that was not true, but that when the battery ran down it would then have to be plugged in to re-charge it. I remember being very disappointed at the time (not that I was in the market, just that engine re-charging seemed so sensible). Maybe I misunderstood???

[Mike Henderson]

Jim, It has been a few years since I read about the Volt. So, things could have changed by now. I at first understood that they would charge the batteries while traveling down the road on engine power. I then read that that was not true, but that when the battery ran down it would then have to be plugged in to re-charge it. I remember being very disappointed at the time (not that I was in the market, just that engine re-charging seemed so sensible). Maybe I misunderstood???

It actually makes sense that the battery would not be recharged by the engine. You want to store cheap power in the battery, which you get from the electric power grid. If you used the engine to charge the battery, you would lose the "space" to put the power from the grid, and you'd use more expensive gas power to charge the battery and produce more pollution. On the Volt, if you don't have any power in the battery, the engine/generator provides motive power so you are never without motive power unless you run out of gas. When you get home, plug in and load up with cheap power.

Mike

[I'm glad that no one has advocated hydrogen powered cars. The only advantage to a hydrogen power car is maybe quicker "fill ups". But they're not very efficient when you look at the whole chain of hydrogen production, transport, and conversion to electricity to power a car.]

[Nathan Johnson]

Couldn't you outfit a car with a solar panel and replenish the battery that way?

[Chase Mueller]

Couldn't you outfit a car with a solar panel and replenish the battery that way?

I'll admit my knowledge on the subject is nowhere near advanced, but I'll assume it's one of those things that makes too much sense.

[William Adams]

Yes, but the power provided is quite low compared to the power needed to move the vehicle --- folks aren't willing to use on a day-to-day basis the sort of vehicle which can take advantage of that in a meaningful fashion:

https://phys.org/news/2011-07-solar-car-quantum-michigan-ultimate.html

[Jim Becker]

The Volt only uses the Gasoline engine as a generator when the battery gets low. It's a plug-in hybrid, but unlike many others, the gas engine doesn't provide motive power; just electricity. Scroll down on this page to read how it's setup: http://www.chevrolet.com/previous-year/volt-plug-in-hybrid

[Mike Henderson]

Couldn't you outfit a car with a solar panel and replenish the battery that way?

The amount of space on the roof of a car is too small to provide much power. There are cars that have solar panels on the roof, but they only provide enough power to (for example) power a fan to try to keep the interior cooler when sitting in the sun. Way too small to provide any amount of power to the battery that is used to drive the car.

Mike

[Greg Peterson]

Apparently residential demand for electricity is declining to such a point that some electric producers considering or are, subsidizing electric cars.

Battery technology will define our future more than any other technology I can think of.

[Mike Henderson]

Apparently residential demand for electricity is declining to such a point that some electric producers considering or are, subsidizing electric cars.

Battery technology will define our future more than any other technology I can think of.

I don't know about residential demand declining, but one important thing that electric cars could provide is a smoothing out of the demand. Electric demand peaks during the day, fortunately during the time when solar generation is also peaking. But at night, demand declines substantially. This causes problems for the grid managers who have to take generators off line, or get them to decrease production. And modulating the amount of power produced by a big generation unit is not easy.

If electric cars are recharged at night, it will tend to smooth out the power consumption on the grid. That's why many utility companies offer cheap rates during the night to charge electric cars.

Mike

[Ryan Mooney]

The amount of space on the roof of a car is too small to provide much power. There are cars that have solar panels on the roof, but they only provide enough power to (for example) power a fan to try to keep the interior cooler when sitting in the sun. Way too small to provide any amount of power to the battery that is used to drive the car.

I worked out once what it would take to power a beach buggy (basically drive to the beach, park all day then drive home). It was marginal over about 5 miles and mostly impossible over about 10 (which required spending a fair bit of effort to lighten the vehicle). Panels are somewhat more efficient now (well.. some are) so I think you could get 10 miles. That was also in HI where the sun shines brightly all day. It was an amusing idea anyway.

[William Young]

It actually makes sense that the battery would not be recharged by the engine. You want to store cheap power in the battery, which you get from the electric power grid. If you used the engine to charge the battery, you would lose the "space" to put the power from the grid, and you'd use more expensive gas power to charge the battery and produce more pollution. On the Volt, if you don't have any power in the battery, the engine/generator provides motive power so you are never without motive power unless you run out of gas. When you get home, plug in and load up with cheap power.

Mike


Point well taken. I had not thought of it in those terms. Since my post above replying to Jim, I did a little re-reading and found the following:
"The drivetrain permits the Volt to operate as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors. The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid."
Minimum level is normally 30% or 45% in mountain mode. So, Jim is between 30% and 45% correct :D.

[Jim Becker]

Minimum level is normally 30% or 45% in mountain mode. So, Jim is between 30% and 45% correct :D.

Close, but no cigar for me. But that's fine since I don't and never have smoked. LOL Seriously, I really do like the Volt's design that provides generation via gasoline when needed since that's still going to be pretty darn efficient.

[Rick Potter]

On my Plug in hybrid Ford, most recharging of the 'drive' battery while driving is from 'regeneration' captured by slowing down, and especially braking. When I park my car, the dash usually tells me that about 20% of my driving has been done on 'regeneration' power, whether I used the gas motor or not.

Going down a mountain for example, you can see the electric fuel gage go up. On the other hand, going up a mountain, it drops like a rock.

Most newer plug in hybrids, and full electrics (BEV) have a way to increase the 'regeneration' rate, which meant when you let up on the gas pedal, it will slow down as fast as moderate braking. Some call it 'one pedal' driving, since you only use the brakes to come to a full stop. Kind of like the older Autopia cars at Disneyland. This is really useful, but manufacturers will need to invent an amber 'slowing down' light, because the people behind you will not have your brake lights to warn them you are slowing.

[Chris Parks]

This is worth watching, slightly off topic because the subject is hybrid trucks but the speaker is excellent...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4H3FE0Z4QQ&t=1s

[Brian Elfert]

Most newer plug in hybrids, and full electrics (BEV) have a way to increase the 'regeneration' rate, which meant when you let up on the gas pedal, it will slow down as fast as moderate braking. Some call it 'one pedal' driving, since you only use the brakes to come to a full stop. Kind of like the older Autopia cars at Disneyland. This is really useful, but manufacturers will need to invent an amber 'slowing down' light, because the people behind you will not have your brake lights to warn them you are slowing.

This kinda sounds like using an engine brake on a diesel vehicle. The engine brake will come on automatically as soon as you let off the gas pedal. Commercial vehicles with engine brakes are required to turn on the brake lights when the engine brake is engaged. (Engine brake is commonly known as a Jake Brake.)

[Malcolm McLeod]

This is worth watching, slightly off topic because the subject is hybrid trucks but the speaker is excellent...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4H3FE0Z4QQ&t=1s

Chris, he certainly makes some interesting points. I took note of the statement he made about the economics of electric cars (20yr ROI). I don't know the speaker's bona fides, but assuming he has his crystal ball well polished, then from this at least, we can perhaps assume full implementation is a ways off?

My crystal ball says three things will impact development, acceptance, and adoption of all electric light utility vehicles:
1. Technology - electric motors have great advantage in 'off speed', start/stop operation, and certainly the hybrid drives will take advantage without much sacrifice in range. As others have said above, storage is key - if you can invent a cheap grid-scale 'battery', the world will beat a path to your door, kick it in, and beg you to take their money. ...And as I said in another thread, I think most of us will be amazed at the pace of development - FWIW.
2. Fossil Fuels - If/when they become expensive (or cheap? - 'law of supply vs demand' still works), it may skew car markets toward electrics. Certainly it looks like running out, but demand WILL shift to other sources and so extend supply. Time will tell how this finds balance.
3. Government - Hands-off or draconian restrictions? Ad campaign touting that 'responsible citizens' should buy 'X' cars? 55mph speed limits or 'reasonable and prudent'? :D'nuf said.
Or, a fourth factor -
4. Economics - To me, the first three all boil down to economics. All 3 have a direct impact on the price of owning and operating a vehicle. Can I, or you, or the average world citizen afford the latest electric car? ...To the OP's topic, there lies your answer.

(Yeah, I know I missed something:confused:, but since I'm not the sharpest tool:eek: in the, er ... chisel rack, I will beg forgiveness and go back to work on my new battery design.:cool:)

[Chris Parks]

Ian Wright was one of the original founders of Tesla so I guess he has a pretty good understanding of the economics of the whole thing.

What is forcing the change is not the shortage of fossil fuels but social necessity because the air quality in some cities has become intolerable along with noise and many other factors I haven't even thought of. It is obvious that the change will happen in dense population centres first and rural and other regions sometime later. I come out of the transport industry and I think the take up of electric power for trucks is a foregone conclusion for so many reasons it would bore you if I listed them, the big transport companies such as UPS etc must be salivating over their introduction and I think they will be forced to put money into R&D to accelerate the process. Hybrids I suspect will be a passing phase and something to be looked back on with curiosity as to why they were ever bothered with but we are talking a long way in the future, perhaps another century.

[Mike Cary]

"
GM will be phasing out gas and diesel vehicles within the next 5 years. "

Uh, never. GM is a multinational corporation that would be out of business in six years if it did this. It has a legal responsibility to maximize shareholder value. The board of director would be removed.

One thing I find fascinating about the internet age is how it shapes peoples opinions. Since you can find whatever you want on the internet, people tend to forgo reality, make their own reality and support it with internet links.

Reality, technology is a wonderful thing, but it does not solve all problems. Everything has limits. Batteries have limits. No matter how good battery technology gets, it will never replace the tremendous amount of energy packed in a gallon of gasoline. Batteries will always limit range and take a long time to charge up.

The sun has unimaginable energy, but, it is broadly spread as it hits the earth. This constrains technology. It can only concentrate so much because there is only so much energy available. To seriously provide any meaningful addition to our energy needs, we would need to blanket the entire state of Arizona with solar panels. Solar panels will never augment the energy needs of a car unless you don't mind traveling only on flat ground at 15 miles an hour or waiting an entire day to charge your car enough to go home.

There are still trillions of gallons of oil. The easy stuff may run out then we extract the hard stuff. Shale and tar sands. But we will probable use it all in the next 300 years. Leaving it in the ground will not happen. The world's economy depends on cheap available energy.

It is true that fossil fuels receive more subsidies than renewables in total. But not nearly as much per kw/hr. Renewables are incredibly expensive. They require rare earth metals that require a lot of fossil fuels to extract and refine. I am glad we are working on this technology, we may be forced to use it in the future, but today it is just a boondoggle. It simply is not a viable option. It is just a feel good attempt to satisfy guilt.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Ian Wright was one of the original founders of Tesla so I guess he has a pretty good understanding of the economics of the whole thing.
....

T. Boone Pickens is largely thought to have a pretty good understanding of the economics of natural gas markets, and presumably of energy delivery in general. He has (had?) a plan (circa 2010) to use wind generated electricity in the Texas panhandle to compress air into underground salt chambers (man-made). This to be done in the mornings when peak winds occur. Then in the afternoon, as electrical grid demand picks up in a Texas summer, this compressed air would be 'harvested', mixed with natural gas and used to power gas turbine-driven generators feeding the Texas population centers. Since the incoming air is already at high pressure, they would have no need for the parasitic compressor section of the turbine - only requiring the turbine section, and so have improved efficiency. ...Magic!;)

This plan developed with gas prices north of $6/MCF, as I recall. Unfortunately, Mr. Pickens' understanding failed to include the shale gas revolution. Gas-fired power stations produce power as needed using the <$2/MCF gas we are swimming in at the moment. (Aside: The US is slated to become a net exporter of n.gas. Our import terminals were converted or are in process to switch to export terminals.)

Not to disparage Mr. Wright, but even experts and visionaries can get it wrong, even horribly so, at times.

[Adam Herman]

We have a Volt and love it. its a great small car and our avg. over the last 50k miles is 108 mpg. its much cheaper to use electricity than it is gas. one kwh goes about 4 miles and costs 10 cents. 2.5 cents per mile gas is around 6 cents per mile. the volt with is Gas generator is perfectly at home going over a 12k ft mountian pass, on a 4k mile road trip or putzing around town.

I really don't know why anyone would buy any other car of a similar size. very few oil changes, no problems so far, documented to have very little battery capacity losses like the leaf with some examples having close to 500k miles and the less than 5% battery capacity loss.

the car, per mile is much cheaper to own than just about anything else.

[Pat Barry]

We have a Volt and love it. its a great small car and our avg. over the last 50k miles is 108 mpg. its much cheaper to use electricity than it is gas. one kwh goes about 4 miles and costs 10 cents. 2.5 cents per mile gas is around 6 cents per mile. the volt with is Gas generator is perfectly at home going over a 12k ft mountian pass, on a 4k mile road trip or putzing around town.

I really don't know why anyone would buy any other car of a similar size. very few oil changes, no problems so far, documented to have very little battery capacity losses like the leaf with some examples having close to 500k miles and the less than 5% battery capacity loss.

the car, per mile is much cheaper to own than just about anything else.
The issue for me is range. How far can you go with your battery power now? How far will you be able to go in 5 years (after the battery life is at least partly consumed)? Now, how long does it take to charge the battery again and how long will it take in 5 years? Also, how much degradation in range and battery life due to excessive heat and cold?

[Brian Henderson]

The issue for me is range. How far can you go with your battery power now? How far will you be able to go in 5 years (after the battery life is at least partly consumed)? Now, how long does it take to charge the battery again and how long will it take in 5 years? Also, how much degradation in range and battery life due to excessive heat and cold?

Exactly. For people like me who need a car to go long distances, electric vehicles simply do not work. 2 weeks ago, I drove about 500 miles over a weekend and had no place to recharge. That doesn't happen every weekend, but it's far greater than the range of even the best electric vehicle out there.

[Adam Herman]

you can expect between 30 and 50 miles range depending on speed, temperature and terrain on electric. and another 300 miles on gas. the battery can be expected to have this range for the life of the car if history can be trusted. ours is a 2013 with 70k miles and has the same range as it did when new. the battery on the volt is heated/cooled while charging and the temperature is maintained while driving as well, it is the best battery temperature management system in the industry and this is why the batteries are keeping the manufactured capacity.

[Greg Peterson]

I worked out once what it would take to power a beach buggy (basically drive to the beach, park all day then drive home). It was marginal over about 5 miles and mostly impossible over about 10 (which required spending a fair bit of effort to lighten the vehicle). Panels are somewhat more efficient now (well.. some are) so I think you could get 10 miles. That was also in HI where the sun shines brightly all day. It was an amusing idea anyway.

Granted the battery and solar panel technology is more complicated, but...we went from the Wright Brothers flying a hundred feet to putting a man on the moon in sixty some odd years.

I can only imagine how quaint and amusing we will be seen as by future generations.

[Adam Herman]

we took the volt on a 4k mile road trip. burned gas the whole time, still got 40 mpg. back to using electric at home for around town and not using any gas for that.

[William Adams]

The difference is, the Wright Brothers started with a _very_ fundamental understanding of the physics of flight, developing an understanding as they go, while internal combustion engines and electrical motors are very well understood --- the big question is what will be the breakthroughs in battery chemistry and physics and other energy storage systems --- and what the constituents of the earth's crust will allow us to build in quantity.

We've already had one company get caught out by picking a battery chemistry before securing an adequate supply of the rare earths which it needs.

For life, either potassium or phosphorous is the limiting element in the earth's crust --- which element will be the limit on what electronic gadgets we can have?

[Dan Friedrichs]

The "but I need to drive 300 miles!" crowd is missing the bigger picture.

10 years from now, it's quite possible the car will be self-driving, and private car ownership will start to become uncommon. You need to go 500 miles? Pull up the app on your phone, schedule a trip - car A picks you up and takes you 300 miles (the range of its battery) then rendezvous with car B to finish the trip while it drives itself to a recharging station.

[Mike Henderson]

The "but I need to drive 300 miles!" crowd is missing the bigger picture.

10 years from now, it's quite possible the car will be self-driving, and private car ownership will start to become uncommon. You need to go 500 miles? Pull up the app on your phone, schedule a trip - car A picks you up and takes you 300 miles (the range of its battery) then rendezvous with car B to finish the trip while it drives itself to a recharging station.

That may be what happens, but when I take a 500 mile car trip, and plan to stay at a location for a while, the car is loaded up. I wouldn't be happy having to move everything over to another car. I don't even like to unload my car when I get home:)

Mike

[Brian Henderson]

That may be what happens, but when I take a 500 mile car trip, and plan to stay at a location for a while, the car is loaded up. I wouldn't be happy having to move everything over to another car. I don't even like to unload my car when I get home:)

Exactly, that's what I would have had to do on my trip, I would have had to unload a ton of stuff between cars, especially on the return trip where the trunk was stuffed full, the back seat was stuffed full and there's no way I'm going to do that over and over again. And self-driving cars? Never. Will never be in one and will never own one.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I had a Honda Hybrid 2002. The vehicle was good, averaged 60 MPG on trips. The Honda CVT transmissions that year were junk, often failing at under 75k miles. Mine failed at 160K miles. Fixing or replacing the transmission would have been more than the car was worth. A buddy got a Honda hybrid of the same year with manual transmission, and now has over 350K miles on it. On it's 2 nd clutch. As energy storage systems improve, cars become lighter, etc, the electric vehicles will eventually replace most passenger vehicles. Whether they use just batteries charged by grid power or some onboard generation system remains to be seen. Heck, I remember hearing farmers argue about whether diesel engines will replace gas engines for agricultural machinery. I don't know if any farm tractors are made with gas engines today. And yes, I have seen an electric farm tractor. A John Deere converted to electric. But the owner used a golf cart motor and 6 marine batteries. He can ride it around and perhaps plow his garden with it. And then back to the extension cord.

[Pat Barry]

The "but I need to drive 300 miles!" crowd is missing the bigger picture.

10 years from now, it's quite possible the car will be self-driving, and private car ownership will start to become uncommon. You need to go 500 miles? Pull up the app on your phone, schedule a trip - car A picks you up and takes you 300 miles (the range of its battery) then rendezvous with car B to finish the trip while it drives itself to a recharging station.

Thanks, but no thanks to that future!

[Pat Barry]

you can expect between 30 and 50 miles range depending on speed, temperature and terrain on electric. and another 300 miles on gas. the battery can be expected to have this range for the life of the car if history can be trusted. ours is a 2013 with 70k miles and has the same range as it did when new. the battery on the volt is heated/cooled while charging and the temperature is maintained while driving as well, it is the best battery temperature management system in the industry and this is why the batteries are keeping the manufactured capacity.
This may be ok for urban yuppies but not for 95% of America. Get it to 120 miles range and it might work for most of suburbia. Get it to 300 and I'll consider it.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Thanks, but no thanks to that future!

You're basing that on the concept that it will bring only limitations and issues without also bringing new opportunities, options, and services. We humans tend to look at something like this in the most negative way possible and assume that everything will be the same except for the one thing that sucks. I run into this with clients all the time; "We can't do X because Y has to be done this way." Well, why do you assume that when we replace X with something more productive, Y won't have a new solution?

People had all sorts of fear-based negativity on getting rid of horses and having cars instead. Well here we are.

[Chase Mueller]

Thanks, but no thanks to that future!


+1 here. I rather enjoy driving. So much so that when I purchased my new car last month, I made a point to get the 6speed manual option.

[Pat Barry]

You're basing that on the concept that it will bring only limitations and issues without also bringing new opportunities, options, and services. We humans tend to look at something like this in the most negative way possible and assume that everything will be the same except for the one thing that sucks. I run into this with clients all the time; "We can't do X because Y has to be done this way." Well, why do you assume that when we replace X with something more productive, Y won't have a new solution?

People had all sorts of fear-based negativity on getting rid of horses and having cars instead. Well here we are.
No, I'm basing that on the fact that i love to drive, enjoy the freedom to make in transit decisions about where to stop, which route to take, what to see, etc etv NOT to mention the total inconvenience of the concept that was presented. Its totally backward. It stifles freedom. Lets say i used your plan. My vehicle would disappear from my destination and then I'd need to schedule something. What happens in an emergency? Thanks but no thanks

[Adam Herman]

This may be ok for urban yuppies but not for 95% of America. Get it to 120 miles range and it might work for most of suburbia. Get it to 300 and I'll consider it.
you don't understand, there is a gas generator that will take you as many miles as you want. Actually they picked that range because 95% of Americans commutes are covered by it.

we have an acre outside of town with chickens and large dogs, and a pickup truck and a tractor. far from "urban yuppies"

[Carlos Alvarez]

No, I'm basing that on the fact that i love to drive, enjoy the freedom to make in transit decisions about where to stop, which route to take, what to see, etc etv NOT to mention the total inconvenience of the concept that was presented. Its totally backward. It stifles freedom. Lets say i used your plan. My vehicle would disappear from my destination and then I'd need to schedule something. What happens in an emergency? Thanks but no thanks

It's not my plan. I said you're considering one factor only, as if it will happen in a vacuum. You're presenting possible outside-case scenarios on the assumption that other solutions don't come to pass. They always do.

[Pat Barry]

you don't understand, there is a gas generator that will take you as many miles as you want. Actually they picked that range because 95% of Americans commutes are covered by it.

we have an acre outside of town with chickens and large dogs, and a pickup truck and a tractor. far from "urban yuppies"
I like the motor I have now. 5.3L V8 Chevy with 4 wheel drive and a tow package. I'm happy with that. Can I call you if I need a jumpstart sometime though??

[Mike Henderson]

This may be ok for urban yuppies but not for 95% of America. Get it to 120 miles range and it might work for most of suburbia. Get it to 300 and I'll consider it.

I guess it depends on how you define "95% of America". Your statement may be true in terms of land area, but land area doesn't buy automobiles. I doubt if 95% of the population is in what we might call urban and suburban areas, but I would not be surprised if 80% of the population lived in areas considered urban or suburban. And people buy cars. If you have a product that can appeal to 80% of the potential market, that's pretty good.

Mike

[Looks like I wan't too far off. See here (https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-cities-population/more-americans-move-to-cities-in-past-decade-census-idUSL2E8EQ5AJ20120326). And that was of 2012.]

[Carlos Alvarez]

I guess it depends on how you define "95% of America". Your statement may be true in terms of land area, but land area doesn't buy automobiles. I doubt if 95% of the population is in what we might call urban and suburban areas, but I would not be surprised if 80% of the population lived in areas considered urban or suburban. And people buy cars. If you have a product that can appeal to 80% of the potential market, that's pretty good.

Mike

[Looks like I wan't too far off. See here (https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-cities-population/more-americans-move-to-cities-in-past-decade-census-idUSL2E8EQ5AJ20120326). And that was of 2012.]

Yup, exactly. I live at the edge of the desert, 100 yards from the end of the city. And we seriously looked at various electric options since most of our driving would be covered. But we ended up with two "toy" cars instead simply because it's what we wanted (Jeep Rubicon and BMW Z4 35is). But the electrics would have covered 100% of what the BMW does and 80% of what the Jeep does.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks, but no thanks to that future!

I don't think anyone is going to force it upon you if you don't want it, but it's a future I'm pretty excited about. I won't need to store cars in my garage, I won't be paying hardly anything for insurance, I'll use my commute time to get work done.....overall, I'll save a ton of money and time. Innovation at work.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I don't think anyone is going to force it upon you if you don't want it, but it's a future I'm pretty excited about. I won't need to store cars in my garage, I won't be paying hardly anything for insurance, I'll use my commute time to get work done.....overall, I'll save a ton of money and time. Innovation at work.

Indeed. For a while we made do with a single car, and saved a ton of money. We'd call Enterprise if we needed a second car for some reason. I'd rather just call a self-driver.

[Edwin Santos]

I don't think anyone is going to force it upon you if you don't want it, but it's a future I'm pretty excited about. I won't need to store cars in my garage, I won't be paying hardly anything for insurance, I'll use my commute time to get work done.....overall, I'll save a ton of money and time. Innovation at work.

Hi,
I share your enthusiasm. Also, I don't think any of this will be an all or nothing proposition. All innovation is evolutionary more than an abrupt change. Look at your daily life today and the way you transact photos, buy things online, communicate by email instead of cards and letters, pay your bills, listen to music, or manage your banking. None of these changes happened abruptly, they came about as new options upon which some jumped early, and others waited until it just made so much sense, they couldn't help but join in.
The transition period might involve one foot in the past and one in the future. Maybe one electric car and one traditional gas car. Maybe drop from two vehicles in the house down to one where one person uses new methods of transportation and the other doesn't. I think it would be very exciting to be able to safely and affordably transport your kids or elderly family members point to point. Case in point - yesterday my wife was sick, so I disrupted work to pick the kids up from school and take them to karate.

It's really difficult for most people to evaluate the future through the lens of the present. Understandably so.

Edwin

[Mike Cary]

When you say there is a gas generator, you must be speaking of a hybrid. So what does that electric motor cost? A diesel or gas car that gets 40 mpg costs half as much, has twice the performance, passenger + cargo room and lasts more than three times longer. It’s an illusion that anyone is saving money or helping the planet buying a hybrid. I’m not disparaging, just “keeping it real “

[Mike Henderson]

When you say there is a gas generator, you must be speaking of a hybrid. So what does that electric motor cost? A diesel or gas car that gets 40 mpg costs half as much, has twice the performance, passenger + cargo room and lasts more than three times longer. It’s an illusion that anyone is saving money or helping the planet buying a hybrid. I’m not disparaging, just “keeping it real “

There are different kinds of hybrids. One kind, like the Prius, drives the wheels directly from the gas engine. The other kind, like the Volt, drives a generator, which in turn drives the motors that drive the wheels. The real question is how much does the overall system cost. If a manufacturer can sell a hybrid car for a similar price as a non-hybrid, the question of the individual components are immaterial.

The overall cost of a vehicle is the original cost plus the cost of ownership (fuel, maintenance, repairs, etc.). The electricity obtained from the grid is generally less expensive than gasoline, and hybrids generally require less maintenance than a non-hybrid.

The hybrid generally gets much better equivalent fuel mileage than a non-hybrid so it produces less pollution.

Mike

[Brian Henderson]

Indeed. For a while we made do with a single car, and saved a ton of money. We'd call Enterprise if we needed a second car for some reason. I'd rather just call a self-driver.

I wouldn't. Same reason I would never use a taxi, never call Uber and never use public transit. If I want to go somewhere, I want to go now. Not wait for something to arrive. I want to be in control. I want to drive. That's what I want and I will not accept less.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I wouldn't. Same reason I would never use a taxi, never call Uber and never use public transit. If I want to go somewhere, I want to go now. Not wait for something to arrive. I want to be in control. I want to drive. That's what I want and I will not accept less.

It takes less than ten minutes for an Uber to arrive at my house. That's as "now" as needed since I'm still getting dressed, finding my wallet, or whatever. That's why it's better than Enterprise, which takes 1-2 hours to deliver a car. When you have a car being driven once per week and otherwise wasting hundreds of dollars, it makes no sense to keep it. I doubt I'd have NO cars, but it's a great replacement for a second car.

[Nathan Johnson]

There are different kinds of hybrids. One kind, like the Prius, drives the wheels directly from the gas engine. The other kind, like the Volt, drives a generator, which in turn drives the motors that drive the wheels. The real question is how much does the overall system cost. If a manufacturer can sell a hybrid car for a similar price as a non-hybrid, the question of the individual components are immaterial.

The overall cost of a vehicle is the original cost plus the cost of ownership (fuel, maintenance, repairs, etc.). The electricity obtained from the grid is generally less expensive than gasoline, and hybrids generally require less maintenance than a non-hybrid.

The hybrid generally gets much better equivalent fuel mileage than a non-hybrid so it produces less pollution.

Mike

Pollution as output, yes. How do we measure the environmental impact of creating the batteries?

[Pat Barry]

It takes less than ten minutes for an Uber to arrive at my house. That's as "now" as needed since I'm still getting dressed, finding my wallet, or whatever. That's why it's better than Enterprise, which takes 1-2 hours to deliver a car. When you have a car being driven once per week and otherwise wasting hundreds of dollars, it makes no sense to keep it. I doubt I'd have NO cars, but it's a great replacement for a second car.
Somebody will have cars. Put me in that group.

[Chris Parks]

I find it curious how some people or even particular groups or nationalities resist change and others embrace it. Norway has embraced electric cars full on, China has also. For instance seat belts were the wost thing that could happen to a driver for the thousands of reasons that the naysayers trotted out but no more.

[Art Mann]

You don't travel very much by car do you?


The "but I need to drive 300 miles!" crowd is missing the bigger picture.

10 years from now, it's quite possible the car will be self-driving, and private car ownership will start to become uncommon. You need to go 500 miles? Pull up the app on your phone, schedule a trip - car A picks you up and takes you 300 miles (the range of its battery) then rendezvous with car B to finish the trip while it drives itself to a recharging station.

[Mike Henderson]

Pollution as output, yes. How do we measure the environmental impact of creating the batteries?

There's also the question of the pollution caused by generation of electricity. But it's MUCH easier to control pollution when it's in a single place, rather than spread over millions of cars. The cost of mitigating any environmental pollution, or capturing the pollution and sequestering it, can be spread over (charged to) the users of the product (electricity and batteries).

For the electricity, solar and wind are becoming a significant part of the grid - here in CA, the electric company had committed to 50% renewable (I think that's the goal) by sometime in the 2020's. For fossil fuel cars, there's no way to reduce the emissions of carbon dioxide except to greatly increase the MPG. That means lighter, smaller cars, improved engine technology, and probably somewhat reduced performance.

By using batteries, we can reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted through use of renewable energy and we can put procedures in place to mitigate the impact of creating those batteries. It's a good path to take.

Mike

[Let me do a quick comparison between battery cars and hydrogen fueled cars. With either system, you start with electricity. To produce hydrogen, you can reform natural gas but that begs the question - you're still using fossil fuels. So let's say that you use electricity to produce hydrogen from the electrolysis of water. The energy content of the hydrogen from that electrolysis is about 60% (http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/electrolysis.html) of the electricity put into the system. So let's say that you start with 100 units of energy in the original electricity. After electrolysis you have 60 units. Then you have to compress it and transport it, OR you have to have an electrolysis system at every "hydrogen filling station". Let's say it takes 5 units of energy to compress and transport the power. Now you have 55 units of energy.
Then you put it into a car with a fuel cell to generate electricity. A hydrogen fuel cell used in a car is about 50% efficient - that is, the electricity output of a fuel cell has about 50% of the energy content of the hydrogen put into it. So now, your 55 units of energy are about 27.5 units.

For a battery operated car, that original 100 units of energy can be transported via the electric grid at a cost of about 5 units of energy, so you have 95 units of energy as the input to the battery. A battery can return maybe 90% of the energy put into the battery, so the output of the battery in a car will be 85.5 units of energy.

For both cases, the electric energy from the fuel cell and the electricity from the battery will go into the motors and there will be some loss due to the motors not being 100% efficient - but the loss will be the same for both. The motors don't care where the electricity comes from.

So a hydrogen powered car is significantly less energy efficient than a battery powered car when the energy chain is considered.

The only advantage of a hydrogen powered car is that you can refuel it faster. But with the speedy charging being offered for battery powered cars, that advantage is somewhat eroded.

Hydrogen is also somewhat dangerous because it burns without a visible flame (no carbon).]

[Brian Elfert]

I wouldn't. Same reason I would never use a taxi, never call Uber and never use public transit. If I want to go somewhere, I want to go now. Not wait for something to arrive. I want to be in control. I want to drive. That's what I want and I will not accept less.

If you want to drive a car then you better not ever move to the city of Minneapolis. The city is making it as difficult as possible to own and drive a car in the city. Many streets have been reduced to create bike lanes. Parking rates are skyrocketing in downtown because the city doesn't want new parking. The city even bought a parking ramp and is tearing it down to build a city office building. New rules for parking in new buildings make it nearly impossible to include any above ground parking in new construction.

I predict by 2030 the city will outright ban private vehicles, at least in the downtown area.

[Chris Parks]

If you want to drive a car then you better not ever move to the city of Minneapolis. The city is making it as difficult as possible to own and drive a car in the city. Many streets have been reduced to create bike lanes. Parking rates are skyrocketing in downtown because the city doesn't want new parking. The city even bought a parking ramp and is tearing it down to build a city office building. New rules for parking in new buildings make it nearly impossible to include any above ground parking in new construction.

I predict by 2030 the city will outright ban private vehicles, at least in the downtown area.

There is a sliding scale tax on all cars that drive into or around London based on the emissions of the vehicle, every time the vehicle enters the taxable area the owner gets a bill and it is serious money judging by next year's rates....https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/charges-for-driving-in-london

[Larry Edgerton]

Sorry, I was making more popcorn.



I'm attracted to time proven designs and simplicity. Especially in higher expense things like cars. My experience with tool batteries has me questioning the actual battery life of EV's. A hybrid isn't simple and costs more than a high mpg economy car. I know I'm just an old closed minded frugal woodworker:)

.

Ditto. Can't keep cars as long as you because of salt, but I run them up to 170k usually. I buy cars that do not break and get great mileage, oh and cheap! My last car was a Mazda 3, paid 12k, drove it for 170ishk, nothing broke, sold it for 2500 to a friend that is still driving it but does not mind rust.

Have a 2,0l non turbo stick focus right now, hope it is as good as the Mazda. Work truck is as cheap as they come, which is not so cheap these days. I do not like any complicated systems, they cost too much and they break at an accelerated rate. Save me from the hybrids and the twin turbo blah, blah, blah. For my dollar, keep it simple.......

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

there are still a few electric cars out there that are over 100 years old. Even a few electric trucks. Those who have feelings against the concept will constantly come up with "but, but, but." Some are legitimate concerns that the industry is improving or has already solved. Battery tech over the past 30 years have given us incredible advances in ease of using power tools, kids motorized toys, even the cell phones we now carry in a pocket instead of a 15 pound brief case like my first cell phone. The lap tops and tablets many of you use to even view this forum. 40 years ago, I sat on the front porch with my grandfather having a beer one summer evening. He described the changes he has seen in his life. and his bewilderment at the changes I will see in mine. He saw the electrification of his home town, when telephones first interrupted the evening meal, motion pictures, the advent of the automobile, was the first teenager in his town to have a driver's license. Innoculations to save people from the misery of polio and other diseases, the development of pennicilin, heart transplants, man on the moon, intercontinental air travel, television sets. "trying to keep an open mind?" What ever the disadvantages, some engineer egg head has probably already solved the problem. it takes time for tech to be adapted to daily life. The first steam engine existed in ancient times, but it took over 2,000 years for a guy to make it do something useful. Ben Franklin probably invented the first electric motor and it took 100 years for Nick Tesla to improve it to be practical. I was in college when the first digital calculators were reduced to portable size. An engineering student I knew saved an entire summer for enough to buy an advanced calculator for his classes. Today you can buy a more advanced calculator for $3 at any discount store. My family's first color television in the 1960's cost almost $400. Now I can buy a 50 inch flat screen digital smart tv for that. Times they are changing. economics and gov't regulation will determine which direction things go.

[Chris Parks]

there are still a few electric cars out there that are over 100 years old. Even a few electric trucks. Those who have feelings against the concept will constantly come up with "but, but, but." Some are legitimate concerns that the industry is improving or has already solved. Battery tech over the past 30 years have given us incredible advances in ease of using power tools, kids motorized toys, even the cell phones we now carry in a pocket instead of a 15 pound brief case like my first cell phone. The lap tops and tablets many of you use to even view this forum. 40 years ago, I sat on the front porch with my grandfather having a beer one summer evening. He described the changes he has seen in his life. and his bewilderment at the changes I will see in mine. He saw the electrification of his home town, when telephones first interrupted the evening meal, motion pictures, the advent of the automobile, was the first teenager in his town to have a driver's license. Innoculations to save people from the misery of polio and other diseases, the development of pennicilin, heart transplants, man on the moon, intercontinental air travel, television sets. "trying to keep an open mind?" What ever the disadvantages, some engineer egg head has probably already solved the problem. it takes time for tech to be adapted to daily life. The first steam engine existed in ancient times, but it took over 2,000 years for a guy to make it do something useful. Ben Franklin probably invented the first electric motor and it took 100 years for Nick Tesla to improve it to be practical. I was in college when the first digital calculators were reduced to portable size. An engineering student I knew saved an entire summer for enough to buy an advanced calculator for his classes. Today you can buy a more advanced calculator for $3 at any discount store. My family's first color television in the 1960's cost almost $400. Now I can buy a 50 inch flat screen digital smart tv for that. Times they are changing. economics and gov't regulation will determine which direction things go.

Perry, you nailed it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You don't travel very much by car do you?

Haha :) Actually, I own gas cars and spend a few hours a day commuting. I hate it. I'd much rather sit in a self-driving car and get work done instead of doing the driving. I change my own oil and do my own car maintenance, but I'd much rather not deal with the mess and the smell and the hassle. I pump my own gas, but it's inconvenient to stop for a fill-up. An electric car would meet 99.9% of my driving needs, and I'd charge it for free at work (because my employer sees "free electric car charging" as a perk to attract top-tier employees). For the other 0.1% of driving needs, I'll keep a gas car for now, but am anxious for the day when self-driving ride-share cars are a reality.

Not quite the same thing, but I replaced my gas weedwacker, lawnmower, and leaf blower with electric models, and could NOT BE HAPPIER. No more gas cans, mixing oil, spark plugs, flooded engines, pull-starting, priming, or bad fumes. Lightweight, quiet(!!), powerful, and with batteries that last more than enough time. I'm replacing the snowblower with an electric model, next year. After that, maybe the Tesla 3 will be out :)

[Brian Henderson]

It takes less than ten minutes for an Uber to arrive at my house. That's as "now" as needed since I'm still getting dressed, finding my wallet, or whatever. That's why it's better than Enterprise, which takes 1-2 hours to deliver a car. When you have a car being driven once per week and otherwise wasting hundreds of dollars, it makes no sense to keep it. I doubt I'd have NO cars, but it's a great replacement for a second car.

Good for you. That's not how I operate. I drive my car multiple times per day, every day, and I don't want to sit around waiting for 10 minutes for someone else to show up. If that works for you, fine. It doesn't work for me.

[Brian Henderson]

If you want to drive a car then you better not ever move to the city of Minneapolis. The city is making it as difficult as possible to own and drive a car in the city. Many streets have been reduced to create bike lanes. Parking rates are skyrocketing in downtown because the city doesn't want new parking. The city even bought a parking ramp and is tearing it down to build a city office building. New rules for parking in new buildings make it nearly impossible to include any above ground parking in new construction.

I predict by 2030 the city will outright ban private vehicles, at least in the downtown area.

I would never live in a city. I live in the outskirts of suburbia. In fact, if you drive east from my house, there is at least 30 miles of nothing. No houses, no businesses, nothing but desert. And I like it that way.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Perry reminds me that a few years ago when I started switching all my air tools to battery, people said I was nuts. Batteries can never compete with air!!! LOL, my 20v impact gun easily beats my air-powered gun. I sold nearly all the air tools, and my huge compressor now feels like the Maytag repairman. The only air tools I kept are a couple of the little grinders/drills because they are very small and work in tight spaces. I use them once a year maybe.

The only reason we don't own electrics is that they aren't made in the car styles we want (Jeep and BMW Z4). Both are toys as well as being tools.

[Jim Becker]

Carlos, the good news for you is that Jeep does intend to bring on hybrid and potentially electric in the reasonable near term. I help moderate one of the largest Jeep forums and that was encouraging to hear. On the sporty side of things...things bode well there, too, for electrics and hybrids. The instantaneous "zoom" factor because of the high torque is impressive in that respect.

[Edwin Santos]

Does anyone know how long it took for a nationwide network of gas stations to be developed following the advent of the automobile? Surely it must have taken time, and for a period, it must have been somewhat inconvenient to obtain gas and the new auto owner must have had to organize themselves and their schedule around the location of the nearest gas station and when they'd need it. I'm sure this might have been an objection for a lot of people, but as the gas stations proliferated and convenience of proximity increased, that objection went away. I thought Tesla had this in mind with their supercharger network.
Of course electric vehicles have an advantage in that you can refuel in your own garage. I'm seeing a lot more of the electric vehicle charging stations all over the place. Maybe they'll figure out a way to wirelessly recharge, maybe even on the go. Would it surprise anyone if they did?

Range will certainly increase. Remember when digital camera memory cards were limited in capacity and you had to worry about the "card full" warning? The card that would come with the camera would hold like 12 images? Now they are a tenth of the price and, depending on the camera resolution, hold thousands of images. I can imagine that kind of improvement curve with electric vehicles in terms of range and recharge time.

[Brian Elfert]

Does anyone know how long it took for a nationwide network of gas stations to be developed following the advent of the automobile? Surely it must have taken time, and for a period, it must have been somewhat inconvenient to obtain gas and the new auto owner must have had to organize themselves and their schedule around the location of the nearest gas station and when they'd need it. I'm sure this might have been an objection for a lot of people, but as the gas stations proliferated and convenience of proximity increased, that objection went away. I thought Tesla had this in mind with their supercharger network.


I would imagine most folks were not driving cross country when cars first came out.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Carlos, the good news for you is that Jeep does intend to bring on hybrid and potentially electric in the reasonable near term. I help moderate one of the largest Jeep forums and that was encouraging to hear. On the sporty side of things...things bode well there, too, for electrics and hybrids. The instantaneous "zoom" factor because of the high torque is impressive in that respect.

That and the diesel have interested me for a while. But I really hate the JL interior. Hate in a way that I don't think I could buy it. So when the diesel and electric are actually available, I will have a tough choice.

[Mike Cary]

As a biochemist, it’s difficult for me to consider carbon dioxide a pollutant.

[Rick Potter]

I am hardly what you would call an 'early adopter', I have always been into hot rods, jeeps, sports cars etc. I would not have bought the two little SUV plug in's if I didn't have the extra solar capability that feeds them most of the time. We drove one this morning, over 20 miles and the motor finally kicked in the last half mile. Now, 3 hours later it is completely charged, and the wife will be leaving again in an hour or so.

She hates to get gas, but doesn't mind plugging it in every time she gets home. We normally get gas about every 4 months. We never intended to use the plug in's on long trips, but have taken mine to Idaho/Wyoming twice.

We have a 15 year old mini van, my 15 year old F250 diesel, and four toy cars, We hardly drive the 'normal' ones anymore, because we really like the plug in's. We keep the others around for trips to the airport, taking friends out to dinner, etc.

I will never buy a sedan, we are waiting for a larger SUV plug in to come along, and we will get rid of the van and one small plug in.

Just saw some pics of the new 2019 Lincoln Aviator Rear Drive SUV. Twin turbo V6, and plug in hybrid. Hmmmm.

[Andrew Joiner]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Andrew Joiner https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2797144#post2797144)
I'm attracted to time proven designs and simplicity. Especially in higher expense things like cars. My experience with tool batteries has me questioning the actual battery life of EV's. A hybrid isn't simple and costs more than a high mpg economy car. I know I'm just an old closed minded frugal woodworker:)


Ditto. Can't keep cars as long as you because of salt, but I run them up to 170k usually. I buy cars that do not break and get great mileage, oh and cheap! My last car was a Mazda 3, paid 12k, drove it for 170ishk, nothing broke, sold it for 2500 to a friend that is still driving it but does not mind rust.

Have a 2,0l non turbo stick focus right now, hope it is as good as the Mazda. Work truck is as cheap as they come, which is not so cheap these days. I do not like any complicated systems, they cost too much and they break at an accelerated rate. Save me from the hybrids and the twin turbo blah, blah, blah. For my dollar, keep it simple.......
Great minds think alike! So are we both just simple minded?
My frustration with tools was solved by Ridgid's lifetime battery warranty.
I like the electric car for the simplicity potential.

I know I'm dreaming but I'd consider electric when.
1- The purchase prices come down.
2- Fast charging stations are brand universal.
3- A pop in spare battery pack is the size of a jerry can and will get you as far.
4- Big hatchbacks, station wagons or pickups are available.
5- Oh and now that Ridgid spoiled me the batteries will come with a lifetime warranty.:)

[Jim Becker]

That and the diesel have interested me for a while. But I really hate the JL interior. Hate in a way that I don't think I could buy it. So when the diesel and electric are actually available, I will have a tough choice.
Maybe the 2019 Scrambler (JT) will catch your eye...the EcoDiesel will be available, albeit as a late option. Jeep Pick-em-up! I'm guessing that the interior will be the same as the JL, however.

[Bill Dufour]

When gas stations first got stated you had to carry a map to find them. Now the Tesla has gps and a updated map showing the best route from supercharger to supercharger along the way to your destination. Steam cars had to stop at convenient horse water troughs but every town has those don't they?
Bill D.
PS: The Tesla supercharger is something like 440 volts at 400 amps this bypass the cars onboard charger circuitry. Of course the amps reduce as the battery back EMF builds. Also the amps are shared with every pair of chargers so if someone else is charging your rate will drop depending on relative battery conditions. More amps will flow to the lower battery but if your battery is already fairly charged it may not actually reduce the amps it can pump into yours.

[Josh Single]

i am lucky enough to own a tesla model S and a model 3. I won't wade into the "well to wheels" or "mine to batteries to recycle" environmental impact. You can slice and dice that data anyway you want to tell almost any story you want.

I will share my personal experience:

1. Battery Degradation: My Model S has 37k miles on it, and i have lost less than 1% of the battery's rated capacity... ~2 miles of range.
2. Road trips: My Model 3 has ~300 miles of range. in that circle from my house I have approximately 2 dozen 135kw superchargers that at current prices give me range at the equivalent of gas prices at ~1.50/gal, which i'll gladly pay. If i'm doing a 500 mile road trip, i'm making 1 charging stop for 15 minutes and 2-3 other stops for coffee, snacks, etc.
3. Maintenance: My Model S has been in the shop exactly twice for service in almost 3 years. the service right now seems to be more proactive updates than actual maintenance. For example, Brakes are still at >60% life, first fluid change on the vehicle of any kind is still 18 months away, etc.
4. Software updates: This is the killer feature for me. Both cars have had material improvements downloaded and installed while i slept. One of the updates about a year ago made my model S almost 0.2 seconds faster 0-60... Just tweaked some parameters in software for how much power the motor could draw.
5. American Car Company: I'm happy to say that my cars were built in America, and that the company is committed to building more and more of the car's components here. My Model 3's battery, Motors and major components were all Made in the USA...

I can say from personal experience that i've never once gone "oh no i'm going to run out of charge" and i have no problem... eh hem... keeping up with the flow of traffic... on the highway.

For me personally i'm sold, if i have a choice and the means, i have no need to every stand outside in the cold at a gas station in the winter ever again. It may not be for everyone, and I still love the sound of a big block engine at full roar, but if you keep an open mind about what the art of the possible is it can be a revelation to leave your house every day with a full tank of gas. Oh and the super quiet, no vibration ride is really nice.

[Art Mann]

There is a difference between traveling and commuting. If all I did was commute, then I might consider an electric car.


Haha :) Actually, I own gas cars and spend a few hours a day commuting. I hate it. I'd much rather sit in a self-driving car and get work done instead of doing the driving. I change my own oil and do my own car maintenance, but I'd much rather not deal with the mess and the smell and the hassle. I pump my own gas, but it's inconvenient to stop for a fill-up. An electric car would meet 99.9% of my driving needs, and I'd charge it for free at work (because my employer sees "free electric car charging" as a perk to attract top-tier employees). For the other 0.1% of driving needs, I'll keep a gas car for now, but am anxious for the day when self-driving ride-share cars are a reality.

Not quite the same thing, but I replaced my gas weedwacker, lawnmower, and leaf blower with electric models, and could NOT BE HAPPIER. No more gas cans, mixing oil, spark plugs, flooded engines, pull-starting, priming, or bad fumes. Lightweight, quiet(!!), powerful, and with batteries that last more than enough time. I'm replacing the snowblower with an electric model, next year. After that, maybe the Tesla 3 will be out :)

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
I wish I owned a Tesla.... but I do have a couple of friends that have them, and their sentiments are about identical to Josh's post above. I started thinking about some of the road trips I take with the family from time to time and out of curiosity went over to the Tesla website to look at the supercharger map and see if I could find recharging facilities. Wow, I had no idea the North America supercharger network was so extensive. If you're interested have a look:
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/42.38550540638204,-113.19869749999998,37.89932025880302,-123.74557249999998,d?search=supercharger&name=North%20America
Edwin

[Art Mann]

My friend owns a model X. He plans his travel route and timing around charging stations. I'm not interested in doing that. Electric vehicles will appeal to me more when every little town has at least one. The Tesla website claims it takes 30 minutes to charge for 170 miles. I can fill up with gas in 5 minutes and I'm good for another 400 miles. It is rare but I have driven as much as 750 miles in a day.

[Bill Dufour]

But where do you live, near any big cities? on a main highway?
There is a supercharger near me because that is a main route from San Francisco to Yosemite
Bill D.

[Brian Henderson]

My friend owns a model X. He plans his travel route and timing around charging stations. I'm not interested in doing that. Electric vehicles will appeal to me more when every little town has at least one. The Tesla website claims it takes 30 minutes to charge for 170 miles. I can fill up with gas in 5 minutes and I'm good for another 400 miles. It is rare but I have driven as much as 750 miles in a day.

Same here. Electric will not replace gas until electric cars are as cheap as gas cars, have the same range and can be recharged as fast as someone can refill a gas tank.

[Brian Henderson]

But where do you live, near any big cities? on a main highway?
There is a supercharger near me because that is a main route from San Francisco to Yosemite
Bill D.

I just looked at the map, the closest charger of any kind is 30 miles away and the closest supercharger is 60 miles away. That's one supercharger period.

[Larry Edgerton]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Andrew Joiner https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2797144#post2797144)
I'm attracted to time proven designs and simplicity. Especially in higher expense things like cars. My experience with tool batteries has me questioning the actual battery life of EV's. A hybrid isn't simple and costs more than a high mpg economy car. I know I'm just an old closed minded frugal woodworker:)


Great minds think alike! So are we both just simple minded?
My frustration with tools was solved by Ridgid's lifetime battery warranty.
I like the electric car for the simplicity potential.

I know I'm dreaming but I'd consider electric when.
1- The purchase prices come down.
2- Fast charging stations are brand universal.
3- A pop in spare battery pack is the size of a jerry can and will get you as far.
4- Big hatchbacks, station wagons or pickups are available.
5- Oh and now that Ridgid spoiled me the batteries will come with a lifetime warranty.:)

Simple minded, maybe......:)

The thing for me is that where I live, and particularly where I like to play, Michigans upper peninsula, electric at this time is not an option. I can not ever see a self driving being able to negotiate back roads the way I can, and I may wander for several days without coming to any decent size town. I mean, that is the goal. I got stuck in a place this winter that I should not have been stuck if the NANNY BS on my new Ford F150 would have let me drive the darn truck. The gas and the brake would not do exactly what I wanted because of the Stability/anti lock traction controls. It has a button to turn it off but it only works partially. Very frustrating!

If electric ever gets up to par in rural areas I will consider as well, but for now it is not an option.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Maybe the 2019 Scrambler (JT) will catch your eye...the EcoDiesel will be available, albeit as a late option. Jeep Pick-em-up! I'm guessing that the interior will be the same as the JL, however.

I would expect the interior to be the same, and I really love the Wrangler body style. I wouldn't do a truck. But the diesel might sway me, or maybe I'll just get used to the interior. But it's SOOO busy and crowded with stuff, while the JK is so clean and simple/pretty.

[Jim Becker]

I would expect the interior to be the same, and I really love the Wrangler body style. I wouldn't do a truck. But the diesel might sway me, or maybe I'll just get used to the interior. But it's SOOO busy and crowded with stuff, while the JK is so clean and simple/pretty.
Because of the notable popularity of Jeep vehicles, I believe they are trying to attract even more folks by taking the off-road prowess of the Wrangler and making the interior more in line with features that folks demand at the current price points, particularly with the electronics. This is a new platform, so that's why there was more of an abrupt change from the previous generation. Honestly, the majority of the public doesn't actually want "clean and simple/pretty" anymore. The new generation Compass and the refreshed Cherokee adopt much of the styling and feature sets that have made the Grand Cherokee so ubiquitous on the road...including the creature features. (I'm an example of who they are marketing to...I only buy loaded and my MY12 Grand Cherokee Overland Summit has everything that was available outside of the rear entertainment system)

[andrew whicker]

I always thought future charging stations would just swap out your battery in like 5 minutes with a fully charged one.

[Brian Henderson]

I always thought future charging stations would just swap out your battery in like 5 minutes with a fully charged one.

Which might be better, but since these stations are unmanned, what's to stop someone from just stealing all of the batteries?

[Mike Henderson]

I always thought future charging stations would just swap out your battery in like 5 minutes with a fully charged one.

Tesla talked about that but you can see some problems with that approach. The question is "Who owns the battery?" If Tesla is going to swap them out, the only logical answer would be that Tesla owns the battery. Otherwise, you could use your battery and charge it at home in the normal fashion, but when it gets older (let's say 10 years), you could go to a swap station and swap it for one they have. Assuming Tesla would test their batteries and certify them, you should be good to go for another battery life. In essence, Tesla just gave you a replacement battery for the cost of the recharge. You'd never have to worry about a battery failing or about buying a replacement battery.

But if Tesla owns the batteries in a battery swap system, they are implicitly guaranteeing their battery for the life of the car since you can swap them out at will. I don't think Tesla can afford to do that.

The next problem is that Tesla has a bunch of different batteries - for different cars and different capacities. The swap facility would have to have quite a number of different batteries in stock to be able to swap the one in your car when you drive in. To make this work from a non-financial point of view, the batteries would have to be standardized in physical shape and in capacity so that the swap facility would only have to carry some limited number of batteries. And the cars would have to be designed so that the old battery can be quickly removed and replaced. This is completely possible - it's just an engineering design issue. Of course, the financial issues would still be there. They would probably have to charge you a monthly "battery charge" that would equal the price of a battery over the life of a battery (maybe 10 years). Many people, especially if they were not planning to keep the car that long would not join that program.

I haven't heard anything recently about a battery swap system so I expect that idea is gone.

Mike

[To Brian - No one ever said these stations would be unmanned. And I can't see any way they could be unmanned.]

[Jim Becker]

One other thing that would be a challenge to battery swapping...at least with the state of battery technology in use right now...those suckers are not small or light nor are they generally accessible.

[Brian Elfert]

Tesla built battery swapping capabilities into the model S. They actually opened a battery swap station in California. Tesla also did a event where they did a battery swap on stage for the audience.

The battery swap station has been closed for a few years now. I believe one of the things Telsa was concerned about was ownership of the battery packs. I recall they wanted owners to eventually come back and get their original battery pack reinstalled. They decided the Supercharger system is cheaper to build out and operate. A lease model for the batteries would take care of the ownership issue.

[Mike Henderson]

Tesla built battery swapping capabilities into the model S. They actually opened a battery swap station in California. Tesla also did a event where they did a battery swap on stage for the audience.

The battery swap station has been closed for a few years now. I believe one of the things Telsa was concerned about was ownership of the battery packs. I recall they wanted owners to eventually come back and get their original battery pack reinstalled. They decided the Supercharger system is cheaper to build out and operate. A lease model for the batteries would take care of the ownership issue.

Of course, if you were traveling cross country, it would be essentially impossible to go back and get your original battery pack. And people might just not go back even if it was local.

The lease is a bit difficult to visualize. If you don't pay for the battery when you buy the car, but lease the battery - let's say for 10 years - what happens at the end of those 10 years? The lease can pay for the original battery in those 10 years, but at the end of the 10 years, you could have a new battery from your last swap - maybe you took a cross country trip just to have an excuse not to go back for your old one. For the lease cost of one battery, you now have a somewhat new battery at the end of the lease.

People always find ways to game the system and a battery swap system seems primed for gaming.

Mike

[andrew whicker]

Hmm..


In the world I visualize, people won't be bothering to fill their batteries at night. They'll just drive until they are empty and get them replaced. Right now, there is a big value associated with the batteries, but eventually I'm foreseeing that batteries will be streamlined into two or three std models and no one will be attached to 'their' battery.

I just don't see the market continuing down the path of the car owner being responsible for fueling up their car. 10 years from now (or whatever), I'm really guessing battery swaps. I picture a hole in the ground like Jiffy Lube and someone / something switching it out for you.

You guys seem more informed than me though. And none of us have a crystal ball. It will be an interesting thing to watch.

And btw, who the hell would lease their battery right after they bought an electric car? I don't lease my gas tank. That's a hard pill to swallow.

[Bill Dufour]

I understand the big tesla battery will cost something like $30,000 to replace when it wears out so leasing starts to seem better then outright purchase. Will they take trade-ins if you want to upgrade to the bigger battery latter?
Bil lD.

[Edwin Santos]

Hmm..


In the world I visualize, people won't be bothering to fill their batteries at night. They'll just drive until they are empty and get them replaced. Right now, there is a big value associated with the batteries, but eventually I'm foreseeing that batteries will be streamlined into two or three std models and no one will be attached to 'their' battery.



In the world I envision, this will all be moot because the battery in an EV will be charged on the go as you drive. This would mean in theory you could drive an unlimited number of miles without ever having to stop and "refuel". The most promising wireless recharging research work I have read about involves magnetic resonance technology. Here's an article from last year about the Stanford team's progress in this area: https://phys.org/news/2017-06-wireless-electric-vehicles-major-hurdle.html

How long would it take before something like this was a reality? I don't know, but I do know there are geniuses are working on it feverishly. At the very least, a lot of progress has been made with induction wireless charging (i.e. charging a stationary EV without a plug in cord). One company conveniently named Plugless seems to be leading the way. Their hope is to create a charging standard that would allow induction charging for all electric vehicles. So for example, you drive to the grocery store, and your car is being automatically topped off while you shop, by induction chargers that cover the whole parking lot, so there would be no need to touch a cable.

How would the economics work? I don't know, but maybe it would be like the way cell carriers could charge you for data usage, before the days of unlimited data plans.

I think Nikola Tesla's work in creating the Tesla coil may have been the first known wireless power system. If the power was in the roads or in the air, maybe one day there would be no need for a battery at all.

Edwin

[Lee DeRaud]

I understand the big tesla battery will cost something like $30,000 to replace when it wears out so leasing starts to seem better then outright purchase.^^ This.

My location and life-style is compatible with an EV/hybrid, but I think I'd be a lot happier about that huge battery if my commitment to the vehicle is shorter than the no-questions-asked replacement warranty on the most expensive lump.

[Pat Barry]

In the world I envision, this will all be moot because the battery in an EV will be charged on the go as you drive. This would mean in theory you could drive an unlimited number of miles without ever having to stop and "refuel". The most promising wireless recharging research work I have read about involves magnetic resonance technology. Here's an article from last year about the Stanford team's progress in this area: https://phys.org/news/2017-06-wireless-electric-vehicles-major-hurdle.html

How long would it take before something like this was a reality? I don't know, but I do know there are geniuses are working on it feverishly. At the very least, a lot of progress has been made with induction wireless charging (i.e. charging a stationary EV without a plug in cord). One company conveniently named Plugless seems to be leading the way. Their hope is to create a charging standard that would allow induction charging for all electric vehicles. So for example, you drive to the grocery store, and your car is being automatically topped off while you shop, by induction chargers that cover the whole parking lot, so there would be no need to touch a cable.

How would the economics work? I don't know, but maybe it would be like the way cell carriers could charge you for data usage, before the days of unlimited data plans.

I think Nikola Tesla's work in creating the Tesla coil may have been the first known wireless power system. If the power was in the roads or in the air, maybe one day there would be no need for a battery at all.

Edwin
The efficiency of any method such as this is very poor and the infrastructure cost will be prohibitive except for highly structured test environments. A quicker recharge is much more manageable.

[Jim Becker]

One other thing that could have a potential effect on the idea of "fueling" the batteries...there very well could be new power sources or refinements to existing ones like fuel cells where they become more efficient than "old style" battery storage. Additionally, we can't rule out inductive technologies that could be embedded in the roadways and other areas to automatically effect charging of onboard storage, even while in movement. Yea...that's a long way into the future most likely, but still cannot be overlooked. I honestly do not believe that transportation will stay locked to fossil fuels deeply into the future, but we should see more ubiquitous adoption of electric or partial electric (hybrid) motivation more rapidly in the next decade for sure.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I wouldn't. Same reason I would never use a taxi, never call Uber and never use public transit. If I want to go somewhere, I want to go now. Not wait for something to arrive. I want to be in control. I want to drive. That's what I want and I will not accept less.
Your tune would be different in a big city area. Between the cost of buying the vehicle, any taxes on it, the insurance, maintenance, parking and upkeep, the expense of owning a vehicle can easily be over $10 grand a year. Balance that against a little waiting for a taxi, or renting a NEW car for travel and the savings are far more than even most guy's average hourly for the waiting involved. I did not have a farm truck for several years, it was cheaper to pay for deliveries than the insurance on a truck for a year. I even paid a livestock hauler to transport cattle and it was still much cheaper for all the deliveries and transports than the insurance and maintenance and registration of my old farm truck.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Your tune would be different in a big city area.

Not even a big city. Or anyway, not exactly Atlanta or NYC, etc... My friend in downtown Scottsdale AZ sold both of his cars and has been using only Lyft and Uber for a while. He's a finance guy, he can do the numbers. He's saving almost $500/mo and never has to deal with "car trouble." Never has to sit around for an hour to get the oil changed or whatever other services.

One of the biggest challenges with technology and other beneficial changes is that people simply refuse to look at different ways to accomplish the same goal. "BUT WE ALWAYS DO IT THIS WAY" is the battle cry I've heard throughout my tech career. And anything that challenges the current method is met with a lot of artificial gotchas and must-have items that can be easily overcome.

[Rick Potter]

All these grand solutions for charging are interesting, maybe even possible some day. As for the current and foreseeable future, solar looks like the best bet.


But, solar or not, Green Car Reports states that 80 to 90% of charging of all plug in cars is currently (;)) done at home.

[Brian Henderson]

Your tune would be different in a big city area. Between the cost of buying the vehicle, any taxes on it, the insurance, maintenance, parking and upkeep, the expense of owning a vehicle can easily be over $10 grand a year. Balance that against a little waiting for a taxi, or renting a NEW car for travel and the savings are far more than even most guy's average hourly for the waiting involved. I did not have a farm truck for several years, it was cheaper to pay for deliveries than the insurance on a truck for a year. I even paid a livestock hauler to transport cattle and it was still much cheaper for all the deliveries and transports than the insurance and maintenance and registration of my old farm truck.

But I'd rather shoot myself than live in a big city. I will never do so. I don't even like to visit big cities. In fact, my wife and I have spent our lives moving as far away from big, crowded, noisy cities as possible. Every time things start to get built up, we sell the house and move.

[Carlos Alvarez]

But I'd rather shoot myself than live in a big city.

People tell me I'm exaggerating when I say that, and maybe it would take a while before I'd shoot myself, but I'd certainly have one of two exit strategies. I like occasionally visiting big cities, because I want to remind myself why I'd never live there. And honestly, it's fun to see for a day or two. Makes you appreciate quiet even more.

[Chase Mueller]

I'd love to live in a big city.. I think it looks cool. Not as cool as nature, but still cool.
Unfortunately with big city comes people, that's the deal breaker for me. :D

[Brian Elfert]

Of course, if you were traveling cross country, it would be essentially impossible to go back and get your original battery pack. And people might just not go back even if it was local.

The lease is a bit difficult to visualize. If you don't pay for the battery when you buy the car, but lease the battery - let's say for 10 years - what happens at the end of those 10 years? The lease can pay for the original battery in those 10 years, but at the end of the 10 years, you could have a new battery from your last swap - maybe you took a cross country trip just to have an excuse not to go back for your old one. For the lease cost of one battery, you now have a somewhat new battery at the end of the lease.


Maybe instead of a lease it would be a rental. You pay so much per month or year kinda like a home propane tank rental. If you stop paying the rental fee then the battery goes back to Tesla.

The problem with battery swaps if you own the battery is what happens when you get a five year old battery to replace your brand new battery? Maybe that five year old battery only goes 250 miles instead of 300 miles like a new battery. Someone with an old battery might keep swapping until they get a nearly new battery and then keep the battery and never swap again.

[Larry Edgerton]

People tell me I'm exaggerating when I say that, and maybe it would take a while before I'd shoot myself, but I'd certainly have one of two exit strategies. I like occasionally visiting big cities, because I want to remind myself why I'd never live there. And honestly, it's fun to see for a day or two. Makes you appreciate quiet even more.

I am overwhelmed when in the city by the unsustainability of it all. This huge mass of people all moving and consuming and producing so little of the essentials of life. Its much easier to have the illusion that mankind will not be their own undoing when you live in the country.

[Jason Roehl]

I am overwhelmed when in the city by the unsustainability of it all. This huge mass of people all moving and consuming and producing so little of the essentials of life. Its much easier to have the illusion that mankind will not be their own undoing when you live in the country.

Well said, Larry.

[Art Mann]

Brilliant observation!

[Lee DeRaud]

Country dwellers rhapsodizing about their sense of self-sufficiency on an Internet forum tickles my sense of irony.

[Chase Mueller]

This whole thread does honestly, quite entertaining at times :D

[Art Mann]

Check your history. During the great depression, there was a mass exodus of people from the cities to the country because that was the only place they could survive. If things were truly disastrous, it could happen again. Personally, I am less than two generations away from subsistence living and could get back to it if I had to. Those with no land and no assets can't do that. I make no false assumptions about the value of the internet, cell phones, electric cars or any other modern convenience or amusement. These things are trivial and I could drop them in a heartbeat if I had to. There is no rhapsodizing about it. It is not an easy way of life and I certainly don't want it.


Country dwellers rhapsodizing about their sense of self-sufficiency on an Internet forum tickles my sense of irony.

[Mike Henderson]

Check your history. During the great depression, there was a mass exodus of people from the cities to the country because that was the only place they could survive. If things were truly disastrous, it could happen again. Personally, I am less than two generations away from subsistence living and could get back to it if I had to. Those with no land and no assets can't do that. I make no false assumptions about the value of the internet, cell phones, electric cars or any other modern convenience or amusement. These things are trivial and I could drop them in a heartbeat if I had to. There is no rhapsodizing about it. It is not an easy way of life and I certainly don't want it.

There's no way city people could survive in the country, even if they could get access to a farm. They just have no idea what goes into farming and animal husbandry. So if some event occurred that forced many city people to seek survival in the countryside, I expect they would come with their assault rifles and attempt to take what they needed. It would not be pretty.

I grew up on a farm and I'm happy to be living in a city now. I don't expect that such a catastrophic event will occur that will force people into survival mode.

Mike

[Some people love farming but for me, I saw it as dirty, hard work that was all day long, 365 days a year (if you have animals) for not a lot of money. I told my father that one thing that got me through college was the fear that I'd have to go back to the farm if I flunked out.]

[Art Mann]

If I lived in a Southern California city, I would be worried about water resources to support civilization in a desert.

[Mike Cary]

I was raised on a thousand cow outfit, I can tell you one thing I learned. Horses make walking a pleasure.

History note, the South suffered severe casualties during the civil war due to disease (compared to the north) because they were country boys. City boys had more immunity.

[Mike Henderson]

If I lived in a Southern California city, I would be worried about water resources to support civilization in a desert.

Well, let me point out that we stole our water fair and square:).

Remember that long before there were canals and pipes bringing water to SoCal from Northern Cal and the Colorado River, people lived here. You'd have to presuppose some complete disaster, such as nuclear war, before all water deliveries to SoCal were cut off. In the case of nuclear war, as close are we are to LA, I expect most of the people in this area would not survive the war. Those surviving would have to revert to what people did here before about 1900.

Something like a severe financial depression would not cut off the water to SoCal.

Mike

[Art Mann]

I visited lake Meade a few months ago and the level is dropping precipitously. If the sources go dry, there is nothing that Californians can do about it. Somebody is going to have to move. This is just one of many examples of the fragile nature of big cities that must import everything in vast quantities from long distances. I think it is ironic that so many city dwellers whine about "sustainability" when their location and lifestyle create such enormous sustainability problems.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I did a software project to manage the calculations and data needed to sell our water (Arizona) to California. CA is paying our farmers (and their own) not to farm so they can use the water. That's not necessarily bad, but figured it is interesting and topical. I learned a lot about water on that project.

[Art Mann]

Cities are not necessary for human survival. Agriculture is. We have such an abundance of food that few city dwellers realize that. Trading farm land for water so that cities can exist in the desert is necessarily bad in my judgement.

[Peter Kelly]

Getting back on-topic:


https://youtu.be/VZNHZnyxCm8


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden

[Mike Henderson]

Cities are not necessary for human survival. Agriculture is. We have such an abundance of food that few city dwellers realize that. Trading farm land for water so that cities can exist in the desert is necessarily bad in my judgement.

If your only criteria is "survival" you're correct. But cities apparently are necessary because every society that developed and progressed created cities. Education, technology, philosophy, etc. developed in cities. For progress to occur, people need to come together to learn, teach, and develop new ideas and concepts. With companies it's the same thing. A lot of ideas develop because someone ran into someone else and started talking about an idea.

The Native Americans - to a large degree - lived the way you describe. But it was just survival - very little technological progress. And a society without technological progress will generally be overcome by one that did develop. So perhaps cities are necessary, not for human survival, but for survival of the society.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

Of fun... slot cars for adults. and faster then a cable car.
Bill

[Steve Demuth]

Country dwellers rhapsodizing about their sense of self-sufficiency on an Internet forum tickles my sense of irony.

Mine too. It also tickles my sense of absurdity, when I reflect on how utterly dependent most rural dwellers are on things they have no idea how to produce. My Amish neighbors could muddle through without the larger economy. The rest of us ... LOL.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Mine too. It also tickles my sense of absurdity, when I reflect on how utterly dependent most rural dwellers are on things they have no idea how to produce. My Amish neighbors could muddle through without the larger economy. The rest of us ... LOL.

A great point. I brought the internet out to most of rural AZ in the 90s. From the city. It transformed so many businesses and farms.

[carl mesaros]

Interesting conversation. I would like to add my two cents in praise of the Chevy Volt. This is a wonderful car and the technology is just awesome.
The Volt is quiet, solid, rides and handles well, and with 53 miles of electric range is perfect for all of our errands, for longer trips the gas engine kicks in and you still get + 40 mpg.
We just received our $7500.00 tax credit which was icing on the cake!
I have purchased our last gasoline only vehicle. Suv's will soon be available using the volt technology within the next few years. (Can't wait)

[Bill Dufour]

I heard yesterday that Walmart wants to become the charging station for all those electric cars. They plan to install outlets for all those rich customers.
Bil lD.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I heard yesterday that Walmart wants to become the charging station for all those electric cars. They plan to install outlets for all those rich customers.
Bil lD.

We have charging stations all over at various businesses. Walmart is just one of them. Some Shell gas stations, the malls, Fry's groceries, etc etc.