Question regarding veneering bag & pump setups

[Daniel Turles]

Hello,


I am planning on putting together a vacuum bag setup for veneering @ the lowest cost possible. Question regarding the different options:

I am thinking of getting a simple ebay vacuum pump, and using a bag, connector, and hose from joe's veneer suppliers. That is all the equipment I want to purchase to get up and running.


Is that enough or do I need more components?


Why does a vacuum pump system like the EVS pump on joewoodworker have so many more components added? (https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm)
Pump, controller, check valve, reservoir, etc. Why would I need these?


Or maybe I was thinking I could get a real simple setup such as the thin air press kit (http://www.roarockit.ca/skateboard-building/thin-air-press/tap-kits/thin-air-press-kit-20x70/#.Wr1P4xPwab9) - but @ $120 for a manual pump it seems a little steep, especially if I can get the pump off ebay for $50, 2x4 bag for $70, and then connector for $12.


Anyone have any experience with any of these different setups and their pros/cons?


Thanks

[Jeff Duncan]

You need to have a vacuum gauge in order to monitor the amount of vacuum your reaching. You'll need a way to turn the vacuum on and off once it reaches desired setting.... or else you'll burn out your motor. The reservoir gives your motor a little rest time in between. The "vacuum pump system" can be done for less investment if you have the ability to source all the parts and put them together correctly. However you'll need all the parts for your vacuum to work correctly.

good luck,
JeffD

[Phil Mueller]

Daniel, I’ve been looking into this myself, so will be interested to hear from the experienced folks. However, from what I’ve gathered, the EVS is a auto cycling system (meaning the pump goes on and off to maintain a set vacuum pressure). And because you don’t want it cycling too often, it requires regulators, resevoirs, etc.

On the other hand, if you plan a non-cycling (continuous running) vacuum pump, the only additional items beyond the pump and hose fittings, would be a vacuum guage, a vacuum valve and bleeder fitting, and a filter.

My limited understanding is that the vacuum guage tells you the pressure and whether there are any leaks occuring, the vacuum valve and bleeder fitting will allow you to adjust the vacuum (and presumably “release” the vacuum when done), and the filter helps protect the pump from dust, etc.

I’m considering the non-cycling system. Check out the Excell 1 and Excell 5 systems on Joe’s site. The parts list on those might be more aligned with what you are thinking of doing.

[Don Peters]

I’ve spent over 20 years building vacuum bagged composite parts professionally. A quick check of the roarrockit skateboard site is depressing. Their claim of 100’s of pulls with a single bag is downright irresponsible. More like 3…. if you’re really lucky. The industry standard for bagging film is one cycle, then toss the bag. And manual pumps? Can you imagine staying up all night pumping that sucker trying to out pump a small leak? This is amateur hour.

OTOH, Joe Woodworker has figured out a good system. His prices are pretty close to what you’ll pay everywhere else, and you won’t have to spend the time sourcing them…. and buying some of the wrong parts. You can buy the parts from him or not, but if you build it as he suggests you’ll have a small, adjustable, professional system that will work flawlessly. It will evacuate the bag and pull as much vacuum as your pump will handle. Then it will kick off and stay off until the vacuum drops to a preset level, then kick on again. All night and all day without a hitch.

The simple truth is that ALL bags leak, even on the first pull. If you’re going to finish with a decent usable part, you need a system that can out-pump small leaks and still maintain a vacuum of at least 16” of mercury; preferably 24” or more.

You can sometimes do this with a small 1/4 hp diaphragm pump if the bag isn’t too big or leaking too much. However, if the pump has to run all night, it’s not going to last all that long before it overheats and seizes. Lost parts and pump; ouch. A better option is a pump used by refrigeration repair guys. Somewhere in the 6 to 10 cfm capacity will do the job and cost a few hundred bucks. I’ve been using a Chinese 10 cfm pump for several years for bags measuring 18” x 96”. It’s crude compared to US made pumps, but it’s outlasted the equivalent US made Thomas and Yellow Jacket pumps by a factor of four.

Check out ACP http://www.acpsales.com/home.html or CST http://www.cstsales.com for smaller quantities of bagging stuff. Or Joe Woodworker. They’ve all been reputable suppliers for a long time.

[Daniel Turles]

Phil,

Have you looked in to the hand pump model kits like the one in my link or from lee valley? They look a little underwhelming at first but this video has me reconsidering, and they come in at ~$70 all in which seems like a decent entry point

Here's the vid I saw - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjQe9p1LBCk

[Daniel Turles]

Don,

Can I get your opinion on the hand pump bag from lee valley? - http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51167&cat=1,43314&ap=1

This one I have the benefit of being able to pick up locally with 90 day returns if I end up hating it.


I’ve spent over 20 years building vacuum bagged composite parts professionally. A quick check of the roarrockit skateboard site is depressing. Their claim of 100’s of pulls with a single bag is downright irresponsible. More like 3…. if you’re really lucky. The industry standard for bagging film is one cycle, then toss the bag. And manual pumps? Can you imagine staying up all night pumping that sucker trying to out pump a small leak? This is amateur hour.

OTOH, Joe Woodworker has figured out a good system. His prices are pretty close to what you’ll pay everywhere else, and you won’t have to spend the time sourcing them…. and buying some of the wrong parts. You can buy the parts from him or not, but if you build it as he suggests you’ll have a small, adjustable, professional system that will work flawlessly. It will evacuate the bag and pull as much vacuum as your pump will handle. Then it will kick off and stay off until the vacuum drops to a preset level, then kick on again. All night and all day without a hitch.

The simple truth is that ALL bags leak, even on the first pull. If you’re going to finish with a decent usable part, you need a system that can out-pump small leaks and still maintain a vacuum of at least 16” of mercury; preferably 24” or more.

You can sometimes do this with a small 1/4 hp diaphragm pump if the bag isn’t too big or leaking too much. However, if the pump has to run all night, it’s not going to last all that long before it overheats and seizes. Lost parts and pump; ouch. A better option is a pump used by refrigeration repair guys. Somewhere in the 6 to 10 cfm capacity will do the job and cost a few hundred bucks. I’ve been using a Chinese 10 cfm pump for several years for bags measuring 18” x 96”. It’s crude compared to US made pumps, but it’s outlasted the equivalent US made Thomas and Yellow Jacket pumps by a factor of four.

Check out ACP http://www.acpsales.com/home.html or CST http://www.cstsales.com for smaller quantities of bagging stuff. Or Joe Woodworker. They’ve all been reputable suppliers for a long time.

[Daniel Turles]

Let's say I decide to go the middle route for a proper pump / bag setup. I am going to post a link to a comprehensive list of all the items one would need, on a budget - appreciate if someone could take a moment and let me know if one of the links is absolute junk, or if I am missing something. This would be a bare bones, continuous operation pump.

1. Pump - Chinese 1/3 HP, 4 SCM, Rotary Vane pump $50

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Stage-4CFM-1-3HP-Rotary-Vane-Deep-Vacuum-Pump-HVAC-AC-Air-tool-R134-R410a/371397348640?_trkparms=aid%3D555019%26algo%3DPL.BA NDIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211623%26meid%3D8ac7 356ff6d742909a1f37dd31ff9ad3%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3 D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D371397348640&_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226

2. Bag - Joe's 2x4 bag $75

https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/VS-Standard-Vinyl-Vacuum-Bag-2-x-4.html

3. Hose Connector - $15

https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Lock-On-Vacuum-Connector.html

3. 1/4 Air Line w/ Fittings $10

https://www.amazon.com/Amflo-12-25E-Polyurethane-Restrictor-Fittings/dp/B079J5RB7F/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1522371583&sr=8-14&keywords=1%2F4+air+line

4. Vacuum Gauge $15

https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Gauge---Heavy-Duty-14-NPT.html

5. Filter $10

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-30252A-Water-Separator-Outlet/dp/B002GQ3SUA/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1522371677&sr=1-3&keywords=1%2F4+air+line+filter

6. Relief Valve $10

https://www.amazon.com/Control-Devices-Brass-Vacuum-Relief/dp/B0081TJPEE/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1522371733&sr=1-3&keywords=1%2F4+vacuum+valve

If this list is comphrensive and the quality is halfway decent thats under $200 for a non hand pump setup which isnt too bad

[Bryan Lisowski]

I would go with Joe Woodworker version even if it was 2x the price of a cobbled together system. I don't want to spend time trying to build something that may work when there is a proven system out there. Plus if the cobbled together system has issues, what is the amount of wasted materials (veneer and substrate) to make up the difference.

If you don't want to spend the money, maybe researching veneer press would be better option.

[Glen Gunderson]

What kind of veneering (and how much) are you thinking of doing? If budget is a real concern, you can get away with just using clamps and MDF as platens for smaller stuff. Or you can spend a bit of money and make a mechanical press with a frame and screws, though the cost of the screws can add up for larger stuff.

Personally I went with a rebuilt pump and the EVS parts kit from Joe Woodworker. That was years ago, but I believe you can get about the same thing for about $275 plus the price of the bag. To me that's pretty reasonable for what you get. I wouldn't even consider hand pump kits; a mechanical press would be much more useful than that.

[Bruce Wrenn]

For vacuum pump, consider a used HVAC pump. When they no longer pull in the micron range, they are trash. They can be rebuilt for about the cost of a new pump, but it means a week without a pump, so most just buy a new one, and stash the old ones.

[Phil Mueller]

Daniel, Joe isn’t too keen on vane pumps...can overheat. Those with an auto shutoff will then shut off and you’d be left with no additional vacuum. Or those without, with burn up. As I said, I have no experience, but considering they will be running for a good 2-4 hours, I’m going to avoid those pumps.

As Brian and Glenn suggested, I have had good results on small pieces with nothing more than plywood platens and a bunch of C clamps. There are a number of youtube videos with demonstrations. I may actually just stay with this system until I actually have a larger project I want to veneer.

If I go with a vacuum system, I‘m leaning towards Glenn’s position...get a system you know will work. The Excell system with a 4x4 poly bag, breather bag, etc., is going to be $500+ minimum. As a hobbiest, I just need to think about how often it’s going to be used...but it sure does open up a lot of possibilities for future projects.

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you Don!

[Ben Grefe]

I have one of the joewoodworker Venturi setups with a 4x4 bag, 4x10 (I think) and a 2x10. Ive used the setup probably 100 times now and it works beautifully. I don’t think you can realistically beat his prices, especially on the bags.

Joe also is incredibly prompt and helpful with his support. I’d go with one of his setups if I were doing it again.

[Robert Cherry]

My system is based around an old mass spec vacuum roughing pump. It’s an oil bath pump and can run continuously, which is how I had it set up originally.

My first system was done on the super cheap. The pump was free from a friend who had two. I used some 1/4” poly tubing from the pump to my ‘bag’, which was just some 3 mil poly sheet carefully taped together with packing tape. I use felt from Walmart as breather strip. Worked fine except the pump needed to run continuously which meant I needed to vent it outdoors (oil bath pumps produce a fine mist of oil as they run). I was able to make the curved panels for the head an foot boards on this sleigh bed with no problem.

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About 2 years ago I built the joe woodworker version of the system. I added it to my old pump. It is a vast improvement over my previous crude setup.

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I used this pump and one of joes bags to press the veneer for a large dining table. Much nicer to work with this system. But certainly, either way can be made to work.

If low low cost is your objective, consider trying out the poly sheet and packing tape method. You can get you feet wet and see if you like vacuum veneering with very little cost outlay. You might be able to pick up a used refrigerant pump from a HVAC shop for cheap or free. Joe woodworker has some reasonably priced pumps as well. Good luck!

[Daniel Turles]

Thanks, all these comments are pushing me closer to just biting the bullet and getting a proper setup.

Can you provide a little detail into how you made the curved panels on the foot board of the bed pic you attached?

[Glen Gunderson]

Another option for a cheap bag is 20 gauge vinyl from a fabric store. If you shop around sometimes you can get it for a $4-5 a yard (54" width). 2 yards of that and you've got a 3' x 4' bag, though you'd need to figure out the seams and the connection between the hose and the bag.

[Robert Cherry]

Thanks, all these comments are pushing me closer to just biting the bullet and getting a proper setup.

Can you provide a little detail into how you made the curved panels on the foot board of the bed pic you attached?

Ill do my best to describe how I made them since unfortunately most of my photos during construction were lost. Basically I made a two piece form (top and bottom) from MDF that had the curved profile and I sandwiched the two layers of veneer and five layers of poplar bending ply in between. The veneer and ply sandwich was glued up using urea formaldehyde glue, slipped inside my makeshift vacuum bag then pressed between the two MDF forms to give it the curved shape. The Vacuum bag evened out the glue up by pressing out any glue blobs and bulges and made for a beautiful finished panel. The MDF forms were strictly to provide the correct shape and were squeezed together with clamps.

A more conventional setup would use just one form, with the form being included inside the vacuum bag. My setup evolved from a (mistaken) thought that I could just clamp the sandwich between the two forms and press the panels without any vacuum. The first test piece was so horrible that I quickly abandoned that idea and moved on to the vacuum bag.

Here is one of the few surviving photos from the build. You can see the glued up headboard panel in the background learning up against the wall. On the bench I’m routing the groove for it into one of the headboard legs.

382733

[Brian Holcombe]

I built one of Joe’s pumps, works great. I’ve been venerating with it for almost 10 years.

[Mike Henderson]

I have two vacuum pumps, one made with a pump I got from Joe woodworker and one with a pump I got on eBay. Both are to Joe's design and with his pump kit. I like the pumps that have the control that allows it to cycle off once you get a good vacuum. As someone else said, all bags leak so when the vacuum gets less (weaker), the pump kicks on again and brings it back to a stronger vacuum. A good bag, well sealed, will not cycle that much.

If you work in the shop while you have something in the bag, you'll appreciate the fact that it will cut off. While the pumps are not as noisy as Dewalt 735 planer, they're noisy. I wouldn't want to have to work with one of them running all the time.

Someone mentioned a venturi system but to make that work, you have to have your air compressor running, maybe not constantly but cutting in and out. And many air compressors are noisier than the vacuum pump.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Here's a good video on the making of the Joe Woodworker style pump by Andrew Pitts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQABdpQu8rg

I was able to scarf a surplus Gast pump years ago for my vacuum work at both the lathe and for veneer.

[Daniel Turles]

Thanks everyone, I think the world of vacuum veneering is a bit clearer now.

I am going to give the Lee Valley hand pump model a shot, since I can purchase and return it locally, and will probably pick up the venturi pump kit w/ bag from Joe when it is back in stock.

[Jim Morgan]

I built one of Joe’s pumps, works great. I’ve been venerating with it for almost 10 years.

I also bow down to Joe and his pumps (built one around the same time as Brian, useful for many awkward clamping situations as well as for veneering).