Windex with water stones?

[Mike Baker 2]

Hi,
I use a 400/1k diamond plate, 6k King, and 1um lapping film progression on my chisels and plane irons for sharpening. I have used water before, but I prefer either glass cleaner(generic Windex) or a bit of soapy water when I use my diamond plate. But I don't like having to carry both that and water to the bench with me.
Has anyone used glass cleaner or soapy water on your water stones? Will this cause any issues you can foresee?
Thanks.

[Robert Engel]

Yup, all the time. I still coat with WD40 after every use.

Lately I've been using just WD40 and I like it just wipe off when done eliminates a step.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi,
I use a 400/1k diamond plate, 6k King, and 1um lapping film progression on my chisels and plane irons for sharpening. I have used water before, but I prefer either glass cleaner(generic Windex) or a bit of soapy water when I use my diamond plate. But I don't like having to carry both that and water to the bench with me.
Has anyone used glass cleaner or soapy water on your water stones? Will this cause any issues you can foresee?
Thanks.

if you use soap, stick with dishwashing soap because the PH tends to be alkaline. The problem with soap is that it is slippery, and tends to reduce friction. But more friction, not less, is what you really need when sharpening steel.

Washing soda or borax dissolved in distilled water works better. Some professional sharpeners in Japan go as far as to add dilute lye to adjust the PH of their sharpening water. These chemicals make the "water wetter" without decreasing friction, and greatly reduce water's corrosive tendency.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, gentlemen.
Stanley, I have some borax here somewhere. Might try that. Would you happen to have a guess at the ratio borax/water? If not, I can experiment.
As for friction, or lack of, I've not had any issues, and I like the feel on the plate, particularly the glass cleaner. I just don't want to somehow cause an issue with my water stone.

[brian zawatsky]

Yup, all the time. I still coat with WD40 after every use.

Lately I've been using just WD40 and I like it just wipe off when done eliminates a step.

wait, you use WD-40 on your waterstones?

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks, gentlemen.
Stanley, I have some borax here somewhere. Might try that.
As for friction, or lack of, I've not had any issues, and I like the feel on the plate, particularly the glass cleaner. I just don't want to somehow cause an issue with my water stone.

I believe the active ingredients in Windex are isopropyl alcohol, sodium lauryl sulfate, and ammonia. I don't know if any of these are harmful to waterstones in Windex's concentrations.

I know from experience that acetone will destroy waterstones.

[Mike Baker 2]

I believe the active ingredients in Windex are isopropyl alcohol, sodium lauryl sulfate, and ammonia. I don't know if any of these are harmful to waterstones in Windex's concentrations.

I know from experience that acetone will destroy waterstones.

Thanks. Think I'll try the borax.

[david beck]

I used glass cleaner when using sandpaper to flatten and such until i found it was making me a bit ill after long sessions. If i would of used a fan i would of not noticed the fumes but sitting all night at it in the winter i didnt care for that fan on me. Now it is just a bit of dish soap in water for that process and water for stones only.

[John C Cox]

Mike, I think that would be a great question for the tech folks at the company who makes your water stones.

There are so many proprietary binder mixes that what is perfectly safe on one could be complete disaster on another.

I tend to get nervous about putting soaps and things good at cutting dirt onto things with clay binders..

[Brian Nguyen]

I've used Windex on my Shapton Kuromaku stones and hasn't seen any ill effects.

[roger wiegand]

What problem is being solved by these additives? I'm a relative neophyte at waterstones, but I'm not observing anything going on for which a surfactant would be a benefit. I can think of lots of ways in which it might be bad, unless you need to clean up oil or grease from the surface.

Depending on the composition of the stones I might imagine some difference in stability of the stone or binder at higher or lower pHs, but wouldn't expect a huge difference around neutral, between 5 and 9. Does very high pH etch the stones and change the effective grit? The idea of "wetter water" just makes my head hurt. That's one we never talked about in pchem.

[Philipp Jaindl]

I'm using Water with a drop of dishsoap, seems to work better at keeping the diamondplates clear then just regular water. Used it on Waterstones too though not long enough to say any long term results however so far didnt notice any damage.

I can see the benefit of less corrosive water if you're doing alot of sharpening on all kinds of steels.

Forgot, i never use Glas cleaner because of the smell and cost.

[Ryan Mooney]

The idea of "wetter water" just makes my head hurt. That's one we never talked about in pchem.

Maybe this will help (err, you likely know all this .. but context): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting

Basically the idea is to improve the wetting characteristics. The problem is either hydrophobic elements in the stone or transference of hydrophobic elements from the tool to the stone. That can reduce the wetting solutions ability to remove swarf. How much of a problem this all is .. I dunno. It does seem like a little something to lower the surface tension helps a smidge.

[steven c newman]

May be because Paul Sellers uses a "cheap" window cleaner to spritz both the wet-n-dry sandpaper, and the plates he sharpens with. I did not see anything about using it on waterstones.

On one of the Ishitani videos, he is using his water stone at a sink. Hands to sprinkle a bit of running water on to the waterstone he is using....stone sit on a metal rack that sits on top of the sink, not in the water.......Seemed to get good results on the plane plane he was sharpening...

[Robert Engel]

wait, you use WD-40 on your waterstones?

He's talking about diamond plates.

[Mike Baker 2]

I did get the idea of using window cleaner on my diamond plates from Sellers. Tried it, and I like the feel, which gives for lack of a better term, I bit of resistance to the push of the blade, and makes the edge feel like it is sticking more solidly to the surface. IME it also tends to get rid of the swarf much more readily than water, and keeps the diamond plate cleaner longer.
As far as water stones, no, he does not as far as I know use it with them. If you read my original post, I was asking because if I want to continue to use it on my diamond hones, that means I'll have to take both water and window cleaner out to the bench with me when I work. I work outside, and tote my tools from the house to the bench. One less thing to carry is always nice in that regard.
It makes no difference in the edge, so I could technically stick to just water, if I wanted to.

[John C Cox]

Mike,

Please make sure your window cleaner product does not contain vinegar or EDTA... Quite a few do because these chemicals clean stuff quite well.. Unfortunately - both vinegar and EDTA will slowly dissolve the plating on the diamond stones which retains the diamonds... "Normal" window cleaner which is a mixture of water, alcohol, and a bit of soap/wetting agent + blue dye won't attack the plating...

And I would not let any cleaning products which contain either vinegar or EDTA anywhere near a water stone.. Very likely to attack/dissolve the binders...

[Mike Baker 2]

Mike,

Please make sure your window cleaner product does not contain vinegar or EDTA... Quite a few do because these chemicals clean stuff quite well.. Unfortunately - both vinegar and EDTA will slowly dissolve the plating on the diamond stones which retains the diamonds... "Normal" window cleaner which is a mixture of water, alcohol, and a bit of soap/wetting agent + blue dye won't attack the plating...

And I would not let any cleaning products which contain either vinegar or EDTA anywhere near a water stone.. Very likely to attack/dissolve the binders...

Will do. Thanks, John.

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks, gentlemen.
Stanley, I have some borax here somewhere. Might try that. Would you happen to have a guess at the ratio borax/water? If not, I can experiment.
As for friction, or lack of, I've not had any issues, and I like the feel on the plate, particularly the glass cleaner. I just don't want to somehow cause an issue with my water stone.

Mike

I have never measured the concentration. I keep mine in a plastic wash bottle ( the kind with the plastic looped tube), and add borax or washing Soda to the water a little at a time until it will no longer dissolve. Supersaturated.

I use this on water stones and diamond plates. It can leave a whitish ring on the stones when dry, but this has never harmed the stones or negatively affected sharpening.

I wish I could say I invented the idea, but I learned it from professional sharpeners (you know, the guys with soggy fingers).

I also use distilled water instead of tap water because all tap water in modern countries contains chlorine, which is a powerful oxidizer, and accumulates in closed containers. Swords are very expensive, and even a bit of chlorine that finds its way into the blades pores can cause corrosion. Belt, suspenders, and carbon fiber cup.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thank you, Stanley. Much appreciated.

[Ted Phillips]

I use plain water from a squirt bottle on my Shapton Pros.

I tend to kerosene on my diamond plates - it keeps them clean and rust free. The one exception to that is my DiaFlat lapping plate. I lubricate it with water only because it is used to true my waterstones. When I'm finished with it, I give it a drop of camilia oil.

TedP

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe this will help (err, you likely know all this .. but context): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting

Basically the idea is to improve the wetting characteristics. The problem is either hydrophobic elements in the stone or transference of hydrophobic elements from the tool to the stone. That can reduce the wetting solutions ability to remove swarf. How much of a problem this all is .. I dunno. It does seem like a little something to lower the surface tension helps a smidge.

I can understand why high wettability would be of benefit with a diamond plate. In fact it can be essential for flattening wide irons, which tend to "float" above the diamonds when pure water is used as the lubricant. When I use diamond plates for that I used a diamond extender (originally made for use with compounds and slurries) that's mostly Naptha to lubricate them FWIW.

What I don't understand is why increased wettability would do anything worthwhile for a waterstone.

As others have said you need to understand the binder type of your stones (clay, resin, magnesia, ceramic, etc) and any resulting chemical [in]compatibilities before you go down this road. You also need to consider volatility and its impact on drying rates and heat transfer. Some magnesia stones are known to craze/crack when they dry out too quickly or are subjected to overly rapid thermal cycling, so I'd be careful using anything that evaporates faster than plain water with those.

Soap is probably a safe choice with most if not all waterstones.

[Patrick Chase]

Please make sure your window cleaner product does not contain vinegar or EDTA... Quite a few do because these chemicals clean stuff quite well.. Unfortunately - both vinegar and EDTA will slowly dissolve the plating on the diamond stones which retains the diamonds... "Normal" window cleaner which is a mixture of water, alcohol, and a bit of soap/wetting agent + blue dye won't attack the plating...

Yeah, I was sort of wondering about that.

The binder on almost all diamond plates is electroplated nickel. Vinegar and EDTA will both attack it to some degree. I'm not sure if it's fast enough to matter, but I wouldn't risk a "good" plate to find out (and the Naptha-based extender that I use clears swarf magnificently).

[Don Dorn]

Hasn't been a concern. Have been using Sellers method since first seeing on Utube. It has worked very well for me, both fast and sharper than any other system I've tried. The Windex isn't anything I've been concerned with and after a good two or three years, I haven't notice a derogation of my diamond stones. Simply wipe them down before covering them up.