Metric Tools in the workshop

[Rich Konopka]

For you Festoolian connoisseurs out there. Does working with metric tools pose any challenges to your otherwise US standard/imperial based workshop? do you use metric tape rules?

How does your depth plunge on Festool Router work if you want to route a 1/4" dado?

The product info on the Festool website states:
2 3/4" ROUTING DEPTH: Largest plunge capacity in its class for versatile use
FAST DEPTH ADJUSTMENT: Extreme 1/256" precision

My understanding is that the depth adjustment on the Tools are metric?? If so, Why do they claim this? Are the tools for the US market imperial based?

I like the idea of using metric. It makes math much simpler. I would love to hear the opinions on how it works for you.

Thanks

[Dev Emch]

Back in the day, the english system was king. But that is no more. Some of the finest machines are coming out of europe and we are having to go metric.

For example. The standard shaper spindle size in the US is 1.25 inches. But often, you find the best shapers on the market running 30, 40 and 50 mm spindles. In my own case, there are *NO* english HSK spindles available. So I have gone to using 30 mm and 40 mm. Height adjustment is not a problem. I have a DRO on my shaper and I can flick it back and forth between english and metric settings. No worries!

The most advanced and the finest cutter heads are all comming from europe these days. Companies like Flurry and Leitz. Most of the offerings in the Leitz Lexicon are all metric. So often, its 30 mm or forget it! Again, this is where the industry has gone so get used to it.

In shops like mine which are mixed english and metric, the only tip I can give you is this. ONE INCH is equal to 25.4 mm. Memorize this conversion factor!

You will get used to it. Personally, I think the best shops are those where both standards are used. My micrometers are english based but my set of intri-mikes are made in switzerland and these are metric. So after a while, you just dont care anymore. Measurement is measurement is measurement. Just check your units and dont compare apples to oranges. Its easy to make this mistake but after ruining a 200 dollar hunk of hardwood, you are most likely not going to make that mistake again!

[Keith Christopher]

I've been trying to work more in metric. I like the whole number math. getting tired of subtracting 3/32 from 1/2, not hard but subracting .24 from 1.27 well that's alot easier. LOL.


Keith

[Andy London]

I was in grade 6 or 7 when Canada went Metric, I use both in the shop. It's a pain at first but you get used to it, except for using fractions, I generally prefer the metric system.

[Paul Canaris]

When I purchased my Slider, Jointer and Planer recently I opted to go with European units; the equipment is all metric..from the rulers and gauges to the spindles. I find metric easier to work in.
It’s only a pain when working off plans that are in standard dimensions.

[Keith Hooks]

I use metric at work and english in the shop. I would love to use metric everywhere, but until the U.S. tools start to come standard in metric, it's going to be tough.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I don't have a problem with metric as a system, but everything I have is referenced to inches. The sawblade is 1/8", my chisels are 1/8, 1/4, 3/8" etc, all my gauges and measuring devices are inches. Too much trouble and $$ to change.

[Barry O'Mahony]

How does your depth plunge on Festool Router work if you want to route a 1/4" dado?

1/4" -- just another way of saying 6.35 mm. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

I've been trying to work more in metric. I like the whole number math. getting tired of subtracting 3/32 from 1/2, not hard but subracting .24 from 1.27 well that's alot easier. LOL.A good digital caliper is your friend: lets you work with the units your brain has been hard-wired to since grade school and still use "easy math".

Still looking for a cheap tape measure calibrated in tenths of an inch, though.

What I did notice, in case it helps any, is that the $8 Casio calculator I got at Target last month has fraction functions.

[Scott Parks]

I think dealing with mm and metric is easier than 64th's and 32nd's. My solution.... I have a poster in my shop that has every drill bit size, fractional inch, metric, and thousandths size on it all in order. I look at the chart, and pick the next closest size... No conversion necessary. As far as Festool metric goes, it's not a problem for me.

[Frank Pellow]

One of the things that attracted me to Festool in the first place was the fact that all the scales and markings on their tools are in Metric.

My shop is mixed Imperial and Metric, but I much prefer Metric and any plans that I draw up for myself are in Metric units.

[craig carlson]

Hi,
Hell, I've got Whitworth tools in my shop! I have never been able to figure out what a 1/2 Whitworth is 1/2 of ! Metric is not a problem. Whatever system you use it's nothing more than a number.
Craig:)

[Ken Garlock]

The USA offically uses the English measuring system and the English language to communicate.

If you want to get along in the USA, measure in fractions and speak English.:(

[Frank Pellow]

Hi,
Hell, I've got Whitworth tools in my shop! I have never been able to figure out what a 1/2 Whitworth is 1/2 of ! Metric is not a problem. Whatever system you use it's nothing more than a number.
Craig:)
Yes, they are only numbers, but numbers that don't include fractions are easier :D (and I say that even though I am very fast and accurate doing arithmetic that includes fractions).

[Andy Hoyt]

When I learned carpentry on the farm; measurements were restricted to big inch and little inch. This pretty much correlated to one inch and one half inch, but only during sugaring time. The rest of the year it was an open debate.

But stuff got built!

[craig carlson]

Yep, as far as fractions go, 1 = 1.0, 1/2 = .5, 1/4 = .25, 1/8 = .125, 1/16 = .0625. There is a pattern here. For woodworking this is just fine, you just need to be comfortable with it, now if I have a fraction like 13/73 I'll go to decimals and then convert to metric if needed. But I still want to know what 1/2 Whitworth is 1/2 of what.
Craig

[Jay Knoll]

I use a set of brass set up blocks to quickly determine depth of cut.

When ever possible I take the measurement off the piece that I'm building by using a scribing knife to mark the piece that has to be cut.

Stay away from rulers -- errors rub off of them!

[Steve Cox]

I believe the USA officially "went metric" back in 1976. My wife (a nurse) uses metric for everything. When I was in electronics it was all in metric. I wish I could go to metric in the shop but it gets to be difficult. If I had all metric I could work with it but given a mixed environment I still find it easier to work in Imperial and convert to metric when needed.

[Dan Racette]

It's that metric clock I have the most trouble with. all those Moon units!!

;)

seriously, though, I did work on Israeli equipment in the past which was all metric. I think I just got used to converting.

[Per Swenson]

Hi all,

We work like Jay.

We don't work in metric.

We work in pencil, marking knife, gauge blocks and story sticks.

Every time I look at a tape measure (depending on time lag)the number

mysteriously changes before transfer. So metrics are not a problem.

Per

[JP McKee]

Before I went to college, I never gave the metric much thought. When I got in school, I found out that metric was the only system archaeology spoke in, so I learned it. My wife gets aggrivated with me sometimes for "speaking" in metric to her:D . I think the ONLY problem most people have with metric is that they dont have a comparative reference for it in their minds. As soon as I had that (a shovel blade is about 30cm long) , I was cool with it. ;)

[Steve Stube]

craig, Mr. Whitworth use to say that Mrs. Whitworth was the better 1/2 if that helps. I guess that makes it about 1/2 of a couple of em.

1mm is very nearly 0.040" is the reference that comes to my mind first when trying to reference one system to the other, then the 2.54 etc..

[Barry O'Mahony]

The USA offically uses the English measuring system and the English language to communicate.

Really? USA scientists all use metric, as do most engineering disciplines (how many engineers are still around that could tell you the definition of the english unit the "slug" ;) ). Electrical and electronics work use all metric quantities, simply because there are no english units for them. The standard units maintained by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, formerly the Nat'l Bureau of Standards) are all metric. Even the U.S. military. I think the Dep't of Transportation is the only gov't holdout, due to consumer resistance.

The USA is one of the few countries without an official language. In some places (e.g., Puerto Rico), U.S. citizens are born and live their whole lives without ever learning English.

[Dev Emch]

Barry...

Most of my engineering textbooks were done in english. You should also see some of the hydro electric stuff out here! Its older than I am and the new stuff is often the result of floods and government hand out checks to rebuild it.

Our main power plant still has massive line drive worthington air compressors with huge flywheels. The main alternators date back to about the 1940s. One of our oldest alternators that was finally taken offline in 1983 (due to a flood I might add) was built about 1900. The department of interior got the real estate for the diversion structure about 30 to 40 years after it was built so they decided not to allow the reconstruction. Had they done so, that alternator would be running today!

And yes, I actually know what a slug is and not the garden variety.:p

[Ian Barley]

Really? USA scientists all use metric, as do most engineering disciplines (how many engineers are still around that could tell you the definition of the english unit the "slug" ;) ). Electrical and electronics work use all metric quantities, simply because there are no english units for them. The standard units maintained by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, formerly the Nat'l Bureau of Standards) are all metric. Even the U.S. military. I think the Dep't of Transportation is the only gov't holdout, due to consumer resistance.

The USA is one of the few countries without an official language. In some places (e.g., Puerto Rico), U.S. citizens are born and live their whole lives without ever learning English.

And while I can't speak for the US, the English system in England is metric and the non-metric system is Imperial and while some of us old fogeys still imagine in Imperial most things are measured in metric.

[Dev Emch]

Ian...

Are you talking about the USA or England.... a similar thing can be found here. Except, the USA does have that wonderful American Invention called the Harley Davidson Motorcycle. Some of these actually were held together with an another standard... Whitworth. Ever hear of that US standard?:D Wink Wink. Well, at least the pre AMF Harleys....

[Jamie Buxton]

Still looking for a cheap tape measure calibrated in tenths of an inch, though.



Lee --
Lee Valley sells decimal-inch 10' tapes. $3.95 each. They're not in the paper catalog, but are on the web site.

Jamie

[Lee DeRaud]

Lee --
Lee Valley sells decimal-inch 10' tapes. $3.95 each. They're not in the paper catalog, but are on the web site.

JamieCool! Thanks!

[David Fried]

I still work with inches and feet. Like Dev, I learned 25.4 mm = 1 inch a long time ago and feel comfortable with measurements like that. When someone tells me something is 900 mm I can't picture it. When Frank comments that it is 16 degrees C I don't know if it's hot or cold. I also never got the hang of the Dvorak keyboard. Tough getting old ;)

[craig carlson]

[QUOTE=Steve Stube]craig, Mr. Whitworth use to say that Mrs. Whitworth was the better 1/2 if that helps. I guess that makes it about 1/2 of a couple of em.

Well that clears that up! Now if only the Cubs would win the pennant!

[Ken Garlock]

Barry, stop the person in the street and start talking about an item that is 4 cm long and you will get a blank stare. Go into a hardware store look at the pipe fitting sizes, the screw and nail lengths, they are in English. In the same store ask for a 3 cm pipe, 2 meters long, and you will be asked for the measure in English.

The defacto language of the US is English, whether the far left likes it or not. Defacto would have been a better choice than official. I for one am tired of seeing other languages on signs along with English. During the early part of the 20Th century, there were thousands of LEGAL immigrants entering the US. They all learned English. English was the language taught in the public schools. Yes, they taught French, German, and Spanish, but those were taught as Foreign languages, not for every day use in society. There was not a concept of English as a second language, period. Yes, granted most spoke their native language at home. These people assimilated into the society because they could communicate.

Take a look at Europe today, it is in a mess because they let enclaves of people exist instead of insisting that they learn to operate in the society that had existed for many hundreds of years.

For those wanting to live in the US, learn to get along, don't try to change a good system that has been in place for nearly 250 years. If you don't like the way we operate, then you have the freedom to leave.

Regarding electronics, it seems to me that the units of measure are independent of origin. Many of those measures are named after the person who discovered the effect. Is the definition of a volt or an ampere based upon a metric measure? It seems to me that these units are based upon their inter-relationship to each other, i.e. one volt at one amp per second is one Coulomb. There is nothing metric or English about that. An ampere is defined as 6.24x10**18 "charge units"(electrons) past a point per second, nothing metric about that. I grant you that in the field of RF transmission, the measurements are metric. Professor Michelson at the old Case Institute of Technology, Cleveland, determined the speed of light to be just slightly less than 300,000,000 meters per second. That became a good reference point for talking about the wavelength of a radio signal, and its antenna size in wavelengths.

Oh well, you know more about this than I do. I will quit now and be happy in my ignorance.

[Rich Konopka]

I have found the responses to this thread most interesting. Story sticks and set up blocks make sense.

I guess my intuition about the Festool marketing was dead on. They have imperial references in their marketing collateral but all in all their tools are pure metric. A tad misleading to the uninformed.

I also noticed that the new Bosch "Colt" router has both metric and imperial marking on the depth gauge.

[Frank Pellow]

...
I guess my intuition about the Festool marketing was dead on. They have imperial references in their marketing collateral but all in all their tools are pure metric. A tad misleading to the uninformed.
...

I agree with you Rich. I wish that Festool would not bother with the Imperial sizes in their catalogue -they just get in the way. :(

You will find the words (Metric dimensions binding) in small print many many places. That should tell the astute reader something.

[Ian Barley]

I think that I have said before that I was about 10 when the UK began the process of going metric (decimal). Started with money. The intereesting thing when some of you guys are really attached to fractions is that your currency has never been anything other than decimal. So at 10 I, along with everybody else in the country had to start converting £2 14s 2 1/2d into £2.71. You would have thought that the world was coming to an end but I suspect that there are very few people who could do the conversion today without the piece of paper I just had to use.

Because I started out measuring in feet and inches I still "imagine" in feet and inches. If I want to build a box I will start the design in my head as x inches square but once I start drawing or cutting I use metric only. I know that 6in is give or take spit 150mm. 8in is as close as makes no real difference to 200mm. 300mm is as near as matters for the conception phase 1 foot. I really don't think it matters if you decide to do you measurement in cubits and fathoms, as long as you use the same measurement system throughout.

[JayStPeter]

It wasn't long ago that Festool didn't have imperial measurements on their web site. It would drive me nuts doing the conversions to figure out which length of guide rail I wanted to be able to deal with 4'x8' sheet goods.

All of my tooling is in fractional inches and materials are sold that way also. As long as my TS blades are 1/8", my dado is fractional, my planer has fractional depth stops, etc. etc. etc. it is more math to convert units all the time than to just use the ones native to my equipment. Even the design process is more painful when you have to convert your buy list to bd. ft. and deal with 4'x8' plywood. I would much rather deal with fractions than have to deal with a painful conversion factor regularly.

Back in the '80s, my junker cars were all imperial. I could grab the right socket just by looking at the bolt head. When I started racing motorcycles, I became equally proficient with metric (I actually like metric screws/bolts better). As with many other responses, I don't really care which system it is ... just that I don't have to constantly convert to get the job done.

Right now, here in the US it makes sense to me to just keep on using fractional imperial measurements. If things change and more metric starts taking over, I'll change. I think in order for significant amounts of woodworking tooling to change, the building trades will have to start dealing in metric :eek:.

Bottom line: I would be pretty happy if Festool made an optional imperial scale for my router. For now, in the rare cases I don't use a setup block, I use a 6" rule that has metric markings also and just eyeball the conversion.

Jay

[craig carlson]

My last final thought on this thread would be: Instead of buying a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood would we now be buying a 121.92 X 243.84 cm or a 1.2192 X 2.4384 m sheet of plywood? :)

[Ian Barley]

My last final thought on this thread would be: Instead of buying a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood would we now be buying a 121.92 X 243.84 cm or a 1.2192 X 2.4384 m sheet of plywood? :)
No - you would be buying a 1220 X 2440 mm sheet - just like I do.

[Lee DeRaud]

My last final thought on this thread would be: Instead of buying a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood would we now be buying a 121.92 X 243.84 cm or a 1.2192 X 2.4384 m sheet of plywood? :)
Probably 125x250cm once the manufacturers actually switch their production line machinery to metric...in the meantime the labels would probably say something like 120x240cm, but the sheet goods would still be 48"x96". The more cynical among us probably think the production lines are set to 120x240cm now, but that's another issue. (Whoops, Ian beat me to it...1220x2440? Try saying that three times fast.:p )

(Somebody with an accurate tape measure check something for me: are those "5x5" sheets of baltic birch ply actually 150cm square?)

[Steve Cox]

But at least the width and length would match the thickness which is already 18mm.

[craig carlson]

Do you guys have any idea that we are talking about a system that the French came up with?

[Lee DeRaud]

Do you guys have any idea that we are talking about a system that the French came up with?Of course: that's why centimeters are called "freedom inches".:D