Water resistance - Polycrylic vs Waterlox

[Mike Dowell]

I'm making some custom eating tables for customers now. I'm finally getting away from refinishing, and more into what I want to do - building. I've got two custom table orders, each of them will be sort of "farm" tables. You know, the rustic look, rough sawn tops, etc. I realize I could just go ahead and blast them down with conversion varnish(I have used Krystal in the past with good results) but I'm really trying to get away from the catalyzed finishes. For these tables, I'm considering two finishes - Polycrylic and Waterlox. I should also add that the sheen needs to be a very low satin, maybe a 30 - 35 tops.

I know the differences, and I've used both. What I haven't done is compare the two side by side in terms of water resistance. Water resistance to me seems like an unknown. For example, it is widely agreed upon that Shellac offers very little protection. However, my own "farm" kitchen table is finished in Shellac and I can leave standing water on it to the point of it evaporating, and I get NO marks. I have two questions:

1) Which finish (polycrylic or waterlox) is the best candidate for a heavy traffic table top? why?

2) Someone once told me that even the satin waterlox looks like high gloss until it fully cures - do you all have the same experience?

[Adam Herman]

we have waterlox with the satin topcoat on our large island and it has been fantastic. we use the method wood floor cleaner to wipe it down and it looks nearly new after 2 years of pretty hard use. a few scratches into the wood, but that can not be avoided with a finish.

I can't compare the 2 though.

[Prashun Patel]

1) I used Polycrylic once. I found that it was soft and scratched. I found that it yellowed over time. I did not think it was all that clear.

Waterlox takes more care and time to apply, but it is very clear, very durable. It is amber and will add a cast to your table.

If you want a pretty good waterbased topcoat that you can spray, try Endure Clear Poly. It sprays very well, levels well, is quite durable (I have used it now on a friend's kitchen table, a neighbor's bar, and my own bathroom vanity cabinets. I can vouch for it's durability under reasonable conditions.

2) Your friend is almost right. Waterlox Original Sealer Finish - Original Formula goes on glossy, but settles to a semigloss over time. This is a wiping varnish and can be used as a top coat; you will just need more coats than if you use the full strength products which come in Gloss (it stays glossy) and satin (it dries to a satin finish quite quickly). The two latter products are intended for brushing. To wipe, you will have to thin them. They are slightly lighter in color than the OSF. Regarding the OSF, there are two versions. The new VOC compliant formula and the Original Formula. To make it confusing, even the new formula is called "Original Sealer Finish". It is the "Original Formula" version that I use and have good experience with. I've used the VOC version once, and won't do it again. It did not lay down or work like the Original Formula version.

More and more, I am turning to Enduro Clear Poly. If you have the ability to spray, it makes doing large surfaces like a table quite painless. It also dries quickly. To augment the color, I have been spraying a base coat of dewaxed shellac.

[Jim Becker]

These are two completely different kinds of finishes. Of the two finishes you mention, the Waterlox would likely be better suited to the task you state from a durability standpoint...remember, those folks focused a lot of their development energy on floors and durability is pretty important there. Polycrylic is on the simpler end of water borne acrylics and while fine for general top-coating, it wouldn't be my choice for any kind of serious finishing task. There are far better water borne products available. I don't use oil based products at this point, but if I did, the Waterlox line would be high on my list.

I have no experience with the GF Enduro product that Prashun mentions, but I am a regular user of Target Coatings finishes. While I've used a lot of the EM6000 and previous generations, my current "favorite" go to for table surfaces and kitchen cabinetry is the EM800cv water borne conversion varnish. It sprays on beautifully and I believe it provides a more durable surface for high-use areas. And rather than push a particular product, my major point is that there are really nice water bornes available that will do the job for you while allowing you to spray out those large table surfaces. You can do whatever you want to color/tone the wood first, such as BLO for pop and then de-waxed shellac as a barrier coat and then follow up with an appropriate number of sprayed coats of whatever water borne finish you choose. The look will be great.

And since you mentioned shellac...there are a whole lot of misconceptions about this great finish that are, IMHO, unjustified. It's certainly not as "horrible" at moisture resistance as many folks try to say it is and it's absolutely worthy of being a product to be used when it's the right tool, whether as "the" finish or as a component in a full finishing regimen.

[John TenEyck]

For a sale item I would use waterborne CV, w/o question. Polycrylic is not that durable. Waterlox takes far too long to apply. With WB CV you'll be done in one or two days and it will be very durable. You should be able to buy them in a flat sheen. If not, you can buy flatters for WB products from Hood Finishing.

John

[Mike Dowell]

Excellent input! OK, so I'm either going to look at waterborne CV or the Enduro product which seems to be very popular. Of the waterborne CV's, does one spray/lay better than any other? I see Jim has a preference for Target Coatings EM800CV, what about you John? It's hard to describe the look I'm going for. I don't want anything plastic looking. I realize that "plastic looking" is subjective, so I will clarify with an example. I have in the past sprayed "Krystal" by ML. I find it mildly plastic looking.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, just to clarify, I have tended to stick with the Target products because they spray well with the particular guns I have and I don't have to re-train myself. They are also less expensive for me than the GF products (with a coupon code) even after shipping because I don't have a Woodcraft or other GF supplier nearby and shipping from them isn't inexpensive. In fact, the Target pricing with coupon and shipping is about the same price as me buying from Sherwin Williams locally with my contractor discount, but I didn't have a "quality experience" with the Kem Aqua product with my gear. (I may try it again with the GF extender, however) If I was going to buy 3-4 gallons of something from Target, I'd just drive there for warehouse pickup as gas would then be less expensive than shipping.

[John Kee]

The Target EM2000 Alkyd Varnish was recommended to me by Target over the EM8000 for both durability and water resistance about 8 years ago and never let me down. Might be worth a call to Target and see what they are currently recommending if you are thinking of going that way.

[Jim Becker]

I've used the EM2000 and it's a nice product. It's the same type of finish as BM Advance in that it's an alkyd emulsification in a water carrier. That's why it has the amber of an oil based product because under the hood, it's very similar to that. It does take a little longer to dry and there's no "burn in" between coats like with most TC finishes, but it's very worthy. Sprays very nicely, too...unlike BM Advance, it's a thinner mixture that isn't much different to spray than EM6000 and other TC finishes.

[John Kee]

I think you better check Jim, EM2000 was around along time before BM Advance was even a thought of, LOL. The only comparison I would make is that they both have an Alkyd component as does the EM8000 and a lot of other finishes currently sold both good and bad. Unfortunately BM Advance has none of the qualities most of us look for in sprayable product since it was mainly designed as a glorified home owner house paint. If you read the Target coatings description of both EM2000 and EM8000 you'll think you were reading about the same product as far as handling, spray time and burn in. The only current reference to burn in is stated in the EM6000 literature, the main difference being that EM2000 is also strong enough for outdoor exposure. Both are sprayable without sanding within the specified time limit. Personally I sprayed the first coat and sanded no matter what to remove grain raise and then between subsequent coats to get a superior final finish. As far as drying times I was always able to sand after about 20 minutes with the exception of hot humid days before I put air conditioning in the shop.

[Jim Becker]

I think you better check Jim, EM2000 was around along time before BM Advance was even a thought of, LOL..
I never said it wasn't ... I just mentioned they are similar types of finishes being an emulsified Alkyd with a water carrier. :) I'm sorry if that wasn't stated in a clear way.