Pushcut problems?

[Ron Stadler]

Ok, up until recently I've always used a pull cut on bowls and always used shear scraping for my finish cuts. So now I've been trying to learn the push cut and have tried just about every position I can imagine and cannot seem to get a good cut, sometimes it starts out ok and after about and inch or two of travel it takes a lot of force to get it to cut or starts bouncing erratically off the rest.
Things that I know.
1.ride bevel but do not push bevel into the wood.
2. Have flute pointing roughly 45degrees toward the cut.
3. I have my handle parallel to the ground and back to accommodate for my bevel angle.
Lastly I try to keep my tools sharp on the wolverine system and currently grind my bowl gouges with 45 degree grind.
Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks

Ps. I've been cutting white oak and hickory wood lately.

[John Grace]

While it could be any number of things depending on wood and how you're presenting the tool but I was having the exact same problem until I changed my gouge from 40 to 60 degrees. Suggest if you have a cheap one available to you, change the bevel angle and see if that helps your particular situation. Good luck...

[Reed Gray]

The bounce you feel an inch or two into the cut comes mostly from rubbing the bevel too hard. One hand on the handle, and the other hand just resting on the tool shaft, not gripping it. Probably the most difficult thing I forced myself to learn because I always felt the 2 handed push cut was the proper way to do it. When roughing, I don't really care about pushing too hard, but then I use scrapers for that. I do prefer a 45/45 gouge for the outside, and for the inside wall, then switch to a 70 degree bevel ) shaped nose tool for the transition and across the bottom. For me, with the push cut, I prefer to hold my tools more level, and cut mostly with the nose rather than the dropped handle and cutting more with the wing, though both ways work. I do prefer a more open flute shape like most of the parabolic flute shapes. I do shear scrape as the final step. I have a sliding headstock and slide it all the way down to the end for bowl turning. Other wise you have to extend your arms out away from your body, or bend over.

robo hippy

[JohnC Lucas]

Try rotating the flute up or down slightly from the 45 position. Quite often when you get bouncing just a tiny rotation one way or the other will get rid of it.

[George Troy Hurlburt]

Handle must be down to start and supported by your body. Bevel not that critical. Tool rest can be center or slightly above center. Move tool rest so you don't have the gouge hanging out to far. Check some videos on Utube that might help.

[Ron Stadler]

While it could be any number of things depending on wood and how you're presenting the tool but I was having the exact same problem until I changed my gouge from 40 to 60 degrees. Suggest if you have a cheap one available to you, change the bevel angle and see if that helps your particular situation. Good luck...

Yep, I thought of doing that and I do have one that has a little meat on it I could try that on.

[Ron Stadler]

The bounce you feel an inch or two into the cut comes mostly from rubbing the bevel too hard. One hand on the handle, and the other hand just resting on the tool shaft, not gripping it. Probably the most difficult thing I forced myself to learn because I always felt the 2 handed push cut was the proper way to do it. When roughing, I don't really care about pushing too hard, but then I use scrapers for that. I do prefer a 45/45 gouge for the outside, and for the inside wall, then switch to a 70 degree bevel ) shaped nose tool for the transition and across the bottom. For me, with the push cut, I prefer to hold my tools more level, and cut mostly with the nose rather than the dropped handle and cutting more with the wing, though both ways work. I do prefer a more open flute shape like most of the parabolic flute shapes. I do shear scrape as the final step. I have a sliding headstock and slide it all the way down to the end for bowl turning. Other wise you have to extend your arms out away from your body, or bend over.

robo hippy

Your probably right, just seems like sometimes the gouge don't even want to start cutting right after I take it off the grinder, the tip of the gouge was just bouncing off the wood and I had to push to actually get it to start cutting, I turned the gouge around and did a pull cut and it cut fine. I'll have to take some pictures of my bowl gouge profile when I get home from work and see what you guys think.

[Ron Stadler]

Try rotating the flute up or down slightly from the 45 position. Quite often when you get bouncing just a tiny rotation one way or the other will get rid of it.

Thanks I will try that also

[Ron Stadler]

Handle must be down to start and supported by your body. Bevel not that critical. Tool rest can be center or slightly above center. Move tool rest so you don't have the gouge hanging out to far. Check some videos on Utube that might help.

I did try moving around my tool rest a bit and have my rest about an eighth to a 3/8 away from the wood usually. What grind do you have on your gouge? I would imagine that to would make a difference on what angle you hold your tool handle being level or downward. Just so frustrating , I think I'm doing it by the book and not getting any results. And it seems when I try and keep little to no pressure against the bevel I lose the cut entirely and it just walks out.

[Ron Stadler]

Here are some pics of my bowl gouge profile, 382124382125382126382127Looking at the second pic and picturing the edge of my desk as the rest, this is about how i present it to the wood working right to left, I am cutting in the tip area, but am i supposed to be cutting on the upper wing portion of the tip or the lower?

[Ron Stadler]

posted this pic to maybe clear up my previous question? 382128

[Allan Ferguson]

Looking at position 1, your contact edge appears to be perpendicular and would not cut. You could check out Richard Raffen DVD Turning wood.

[Ron Stadler]

Looking at position 1, your contact edge appears to be perpendicular and would not cut. You could check out Richard Raffen DVD Turning wood.

I'll have to check Richard's DVD, also want to check out Lyle Jamieson dvd.

[robert baccus]

The grind may not be your problem. Are you picking up a small "ledge" with your tool tip and following it to your end of cut--it helps to have a ledge to push against or the tool will just wander. This is very different than irish grind cutting.

[Pat Scott]

Cutting from right to left you would be cutting with position number one on the gouge. I would create a secondary bevel by grinding away at least half of the bevel that you have now.

Also if you look at the picture (where you have the numbers) the wing is forward of the tip. With the wing cutting before the tip it's going to be real hard to do a push cut, and real hard to pick up a cut and keep it in the cut. Grind the wings down a bit more so they don't have as much curve.

[Ron Stadler]

Cutting from right to left you would be cutting with position number one on the gouge. I would create a secondary bevel by grinding away at least half of the bevel that you have now.

Also if you look at the picture (where you have the numbers) the wing is forward of the tip. With the wing cutting before the tip it's going to be real hard to do a push cut, and real hard to pick up a cut and keep it in the cut. Grind the wings down a bit more so they don't have as much curve.

Will try that Pat, thanks

[Ron Stadler]

The grind may not be your problem. Are you picking up a small "ledge" with your tool tip and following it to your end of cut--it helps to have a ledge to push against or the tool will just wander. This is very different than irish grind cutting.

I think I am doing what your talking about but having much success as of keeping it going.

[Pat Scott]

I should have said grind the wing down a bit more where #1 and #2 are pointing (blue line). Overall the curve and grind of your gouge looks pretty good, it just needs a bit of refining. The red line shows how much of the heel I'd grind away. I have maybe 1/3 bevel, and 2/3 ground away. The angle of the red line isn't important, you just want that extra metal out of the way.

[JohnC Lucas]

The grind looks fine although I would grind away the bottom corner of the bevel. This sharp edge will leave burnished marks on the inside of bowls that won't sand out and show up as light colored rings because it won't take the finish evenly. Your presentation angle looks about right. If you can't pick the cut up in this position then you either don't have the tools sharp (although it looks good) or you are not swinging the handle around far enough to engage the cutting tip. If it wants to skip out of the cut then either you aren't swinging the handle to follow the curve of the vessel or it isn't sharp. Again, once you start if it doesn't seem to cut really easily then rotate the flute clockwise or counter clockwise just a little. sometimes it only takes a few degrees to make the cut easily and be controllable.

[Ron Stadler]

I should have said grind the wing down a bit more where #1 and #2 are pointing (blue line). Overall the curve and grind of your gouge looks pretty good, it just needs a bit of refining. The red line shows how much of the heel I'd grind away. I have maybe 1/3 bevel, and 2/3 ground away. The angle of the red line isn't important, you just want that extra metal out of the way.

Ok , sounds good. And yes I do have bowls where I was getting bruise marks inside the bowl and as said I sanded and sanded to the point I thought it was some kind of weird grain going through the wood because it wouldn't go away.

[Ron Stadler]

Thanks for all you guys help, I'll keep working on it.:)

[Reed Gray]

Well, in the above picture, you want to be cutting with the 1 position, and that part is directly over the tool rest. The 2 position is high sided. This is pretty much the gouge position I would use on the outside of the bowl. If we had transporters, I would come over for a play date. I have a bunch of You Tube videos up, and most are on bowl turning.

Just went and reviewed this old clip. Probably should be updated. Not a good view of the push cut on the outside, but pretty much identical process for the inside of the bowl cuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0qkpDBcgfg

robo hippy

[Ron Stadler]

Well, in the above picture, you want to be cutting with the 1 position, and that part is directly over the tool rest. The 2 position is high sided. This is pretty much the gouge position I would use on the outside of the bowl. If we had transporters, I would come over for a play date. I have a bunch of You Tube videos up, and most are on bowl turning.

Just went and reviewed this old clip. Probably should be updated. Not a good view of the push cut on the outside, but pretty much identical process for the inside of the bowl cuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0qkpDBcgfg

robo hippy

Funny thing is I never have any problems with the inside of the bowl.

[Ron Stadler]

Well i refined my grind and put a secondary bevel on it, I'll post the changes shortly, but what a difference that made. I turned one bowl and seems to be the trick, gonna turn another one in a bit so I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks guys so much for helping we this, really want to learn every cut out there and add them to my arsenal. :)

[robert baccus]

The double bevel is just a go-around. The real fix is to just change your bevel to a different angle.

[JohnC Lucas]

For doing the outside changing the bevel to a different angle won't solve your problem. A more acute angle will cut cleaner, a more blunt angle will let you get into the inside deeper and still rub the bevel. Light pressure on the bevel, followed by the correct angle of the flute will stop the bounce. I played with that a lot yesterday while I was testing some new carbide cutters. I would turn a little with the carbide scrapers and then go back to my bowl gouge. While I was doing that I would rotate the flute looking for the least effort on my part to make the cut. When you find that sweet spot the gouge is doing all the work and you are relaxed and get clean controlled cuts. Just for fun I used 3 different gouges, a 40/40 grind, a 55 degree grind and 65 degree grind. All cut just as easily but required different handle positions and of course the more acute grind cut a little quicker although I have short wings on that one so it didn't remove as much wood as the gouge with longer wings.