Shellac Question(s)

[Mike Baker 2]

This relates specifically to the Zinsser Shellac here.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Zinsser-Bulls-Eye-32-fl-oz-Amber-Water-Based-Shellac/3434544

I would like to use this on some chisel and saw handles, but I have a problem.
My wife has Cerebral Palsy, and subject to siezures. One of the things that triggers them are very strong odors, specifically things like finishes, oils, etc.
For those of you who have used this product, how intense is the smell, and how long for it to cure and stop giving off odor?
I could finish with it and leave it outside in the shed, but it is cold here at night (mid 20s)and I would rather bring them inside.
Right now I finish with wipe on poly, which if I do that early enough to let it sit outside 4 or 5 hours, cures well enough that I can bring it in. But my wife's nose is super sensitive, and even behind a closed door, if the scent is fairly strong, she will have issues.
Any advice/experiences would be appreciated.

[Patrick Chase]

This relates specifically to the Zinsser Shellac here.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Zinsser-Bulls-Eye-32-fl-oz-Amber-Water-Based-Shellac/3434544

I would like to use this on some chisel and saw handles, but I have a problem.
My wife has Cerebral Palsy, and subject to siezures. One of the things that triggers them are very strong odors, specifically things like finishes, oils, etc.
For those of you who have used this product, how intense is the smell, and how long for it to cure and stop giving off odor?
I could finish with it and leave it outside in the shed, but it is cold here at night (mid 20s)and I would rather bring them inside.
Right now I finish with wipe on poly, which if I do that early enough to let it sit outside 4 or 5 hours, cures well enough that I can bring it in. But my wife's nose is super sensitive, and even behind a closed door, if the scent is fairly strong, she will have issues.
Any advice/experiences would be appreciated.

Shellac is alcohol-based, so the fumes are relatively harmless and dissipate quickly (certainly within a day). True poly varnishes (as opposed to the water-based mostly-acrylic stuff that says "poly") are oil-based. The solvents in there consist of mineral spirits and lighter petroleum distillates. Most of them flash off within hours, but there's a "long tail" of odor that lasts until the finish cures, which usually takes a week or so.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, as Patrick said, it’s alcohol based, so it dries very quickly...within minutes of applying it. Many will dilute the store bought shellac with about 50% more DNA to aid in application. The more alcohol in the mix, the faster the dry time. Usually you can do subsequent coats of diluted shellac every 15-20 minutes or less. Of course that also may mean more coats are needed. Shellac has a distinct smell, but I apply it in my basement all the time and don’t get any complaints...especially on smaller projects like handles.

It’s hard to know what may trigger a reaction, but of all the finishes, shellac is certainly (in my opinion) the least offensive and quickest to dissipate. However, if she is sensitive to the smell of DNA, it may be an issue.

[John C Cox]

Denatured alcohol typically has a whole host of nasties in it that could potentially set her off if you do this indoors... Methanol, benzenes, formaldehyde stuff...

If you really want to try this out... Dissolve Shellac flakes into the super high proof Everclear... The 98% stuff or whatever it is...

Spirit based Violin varnish is a very similar finish.. It's a mixture of some gums, resins, and shellac that you mix into alcohol...

Another possible solution is home brew Boiled linseed oil beeswax finish. You cook some flax seed oil and then mix in some beeswax. No additional thinners or additives... Several videos on The tube about making it... Rub it in good with your fingers then wipe off the excess... It will need some UV to cure out... But you wipe it on real thin.. It smells like vegetable oil... And it feels really good in hand...

[David Bassett]

This relates specifically to the Zinsser Shellac here. ...

I can't speak to how the denaturing additives might affect your wife.

If you want to minimize the variables, you could try dissolving flakes in drinkable alcohol (ethanol). You'll pay excise tax, but it will be very controlled and should control the exposure. Allan Speers was experimenting with this, due to health concerns with repeated exposure to the denaturing chemicals. I don't remember his being around recently, but he has a thread on Sourcing Ethanol (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241838-Inexpensive-home-still-for-making-ethanol&p=2541507#post2541507) here.

PS- shellac itself is pretty benign, e.g. it's used as a pill coating.

[Patrick Chase]

PS- shellac itself is pretty benign, e.g. it's used as a pill coating.

Basically all modern coatings (since lead ceased to be used as a drier) are nontoxic when dried and cured. The health hazards arise almost exclusively during application and drying, when various solvents flash off or otherwise enter the air. Shellac is no exception, though more benign than most. I use high-purity ethanol as you suggest, such that the only real hazard is that of self-immolation during spraying.

[Edwin Santos]

Denatured alcohol typically has a whole host of nasties in it that could potentially set her off if you do this indoors... Methanol, benzenes, formaldehyde stuff...

If you really want to try this out... Dissolve Shellac flakes into the super high proof Everclear... The 98% stuff or whatever it is...



Or you can use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol (Rubbing Alcohol) as your solvent for the shellac flakes if you go that route. You should be able to find it online or maybe at a drugstore. Make sure it's 99%. Other than a water based finish, I think shellac is your best bet for your particular problem, and if applying thin coats, in a dry climate, the smell should dissipate within an hour or two. That's even using the premixed variety like you're suggesting.
Edwin

[Doug Hepler]

Mike, when the shellac solvent has evaporated, it's gone. Period. No need to worry about what it was composed of. Dry shellac is almost odorless. I don't think shellac makes an ideal finish for tool handles. Consider leaving them unfinished. Some people remove the factory finish on chisel handles, etc. Or you could use a two part slow set epoxy like West system or max clr. They are odorless and almost inert after they cure

Doug

[sean contenti]

I've heard a couple toolmakers that use Shellawax (Vesper, in particular, has mentioned it IIRC) - if you're turning new handles, or have a buffing wheel to toss on a grinder, it might give added durability above classic shellac.

Never used it myself, so I have no idea how the offgassing might be compared to others, but I've been quite curious about it for a while.

[David Bassett]

... if you're turning new handles, ....

If you're turning, I recall Richard Raffan using just beeswax as a friction polish on the lathe for tool handles.

[Stanley Covington]

Denatured alcohol typically has a whole host of nasties in it that could potentially set her off if you do this indoors... Methanol, benzenes, formaldehyde stuff...

If you really want to try this out... Dissolve Shellac flakes into the super high proof Everclear... The 98% stuff or whatever it is...

Spirit based Violin varnish is a very similar finish.. It's a mixture of some gums, resins, and shellac that you mix into alcohol...

Another possible solution is home brew Boiled linseed oil beeswax finish. You cook some flax seed oil and then mix in some beeswax. No additional thinners or additives... Several videos on The tube about making it... Rub it in good with your fingers then wipe off the excess... It will need some UV to cure out... But you wipe it on real thin.. It smells like vegetable oil... And it feels really good in hand...

John

Is the reason for using Everclear that it is less likely to cause allergic reactions because it does not contain the poisons added to denatured alcohol?

Does Everclear have any negative impacts on performance when combined with shellac?

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

Does Everclear have any negative impacts on performance when combined with shellac?

Depends. Are we assuming that all of the everclear thats used in the process goes into the Shellac?

Seriously, everclear is near-pure Ethanol while DNA is mostly Ethanol. The denaturants don't effect drying performance etc very much in my experience.

[Stanley Covington]

Depends. Are we assuming that all of the everclear thats used in the process goes into the Shellac?

I assumed the idea was to combine it with shellac flakes to make liquid shellac.

On the other hand, the OP was talking about Zinsser Bullseye, which is ready to go out of the can or aerosol can. Not much point is adding alcohol of any variety to Zinsser.

[glenn bradley]

The product in the link has a main title that says water-based but, nothing else reflects that. Were you after a water based product? I purposely use Minwax Polycrylic (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Minwax-Satin-Water-Based-8-fl-oz-Polyurethane/999914423?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-Paint-_-InteriorStains-_-999914423:Minwax&CAWELAID=&kpid=999914423&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1574&k_clickID=2e05494d-f95a-44b6-a219-9accacf538b8&gclid=CjwKCAjwhcjVBRBHEiwAoDe5x3vE5q1F0HzRqVktQZHT FsHn7kkYVhpm7pI9SFYn3pwCZM2SQaGvohoCA9gQAvD_BwE) when I want a super clear finish that doesn't yellow. It still has an odor so I guess we are down to a matter of odor strength and duration. Alcohol based shellac flashes off and loses its odor pretty quickly. Your cold weather presents a challenge in venting the fumes outside but, I'd take a loss of heat over a health issue. If venting the odor is the direction you go I would stay with shellac due to the short interval of evaporation. Just my .02 and a guess from pretty far away ;-)

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, gentlemen.
Glenn, not particularly looking for waterbased. My motivation in using shellac is that it is a traditional finish used a lot in woodworking, and one I have not really used.
I considered BLO, but I have used it before, and know the smell it puts off. Also, I don't like the need to dry out or store the rags used, ie; combustibility, etc.
I still may chuck it all and go back to wipe on poly, but I will have to find a way to tint it a bit. I have some amber tint around here somewhere.

[Jebediah Eckert]

John

Is the reason for using Everclear that it is less likely to cause allergic reactions because it does not contain the poisons added to denatured alcohol?

Does Everclear have any negative impacts on performance when combined with shellac?

Stan

I switched over to grain alcohol and shellac flakes a few years ago. After reading about denatured alcohol on SMC I figured I’d give it a try. I find no difference at all in use. It is much more expensive then DNA of course but it lasts. Getting rid of the added poisons was good enough reason for me.

You can’t buy grain alcohol in every state but surprisingly you can in CT. This is what I have now. I have used Everclear as well, I just base it on whatever is cheaper at the time.

381988

[Warren Mickley]

I am very sensitive to fumes. Some woodworking finishes make me vomit. There is a furniture factory near me; if I am driving toward the factory with the windows closed, I can smell the fumes 3/4 of a mile away. And bare wood that has been in a factory I can smell in my shop for weeks. I think shellac is a very good choice for your situation.

Shellac flakes and pure alcohol is nice, but I think benefits would be lost on a beginner who was just doing little things. If you want to French polish a chest of drawers I might have a different idea, but I recommend buying an 8 ounce can of shellac and a quart of denatured alcohol. Shellac deteriorates in the can so you don't want a long term supply. You will want to dilute the shellac with at least the same amount of alcohol in a jar. I haven't used shellac straight from the can since I was a teenager. Keep another jar of alcohol for cleaning your brush.

Unlike some other finishes, shellac does not need a certain temperature range. You can apply it in an unheated garage or shed when it is freezing or whatever, which would keep fumes out of the house. However, if you just put shellac on a tool handle in the basement, I don't think your wife would notice.

For a sensitive person, I would avoid lacquers and varnishes and oil stains; try using water stains.

[Stanley Covington]

I switched over to grain alcohol and shellac flakes a few years ago. After reading about denatured alcohol on SMC I figured I’d give it a try. I find no difference at all in use. It is much more expensive then DNA of course but it lasts. Getting rid of the added poisons was good enough reason for me.

You can’t buy grain alcohol in every state but surprisingly you can in CT. This is what I have now. I have used Everclear as well, I just base it on whatever is cheaper at the time.

381988

Thanks, Jeb. Good to know. How about a good pinot noir....?

[Brian Holcombe]

I am not as sensitive as Warren to fumes, but I've had enough exposure to solvents that I do my best to avoid. My favorite mix for shellac so far is pure (99%) Isopropyl alcohol.

When I first started woodworking and using shellac I tried the box store denatured alcohol, awful stuff. Even with an organics respirator and gloves I ended up having a nasty headache and days worth of feeling ill. Never again.

[Mike Baker 2]

This is all good information.

[Nathan Johnson]

Since these are tool handles, I'd like to suggest an alternative.
I've used this on some plane knobs and totes and saw handles and I love the look and feel. (I think it was based on Jim K's suggestion.)

[Mike Baker 2]

Nathan, I had forgotten about Feed n Wax. It was recommended to me by Jim as well. That is another option to consider.

[Dennis Tebo]

I've never used Feed n Wax, is it appropriate for tool handles? I wouldn't want something that left a tool handle slick or slippery.

Dennis

[Patrick Chase]

On the other hand, the OP was talking about Zinsser Bullseye, which is ready to go out of the can or aerosol can. Not much point is adding alcohol of any variety to Zinsser.

Excellent, more for the woodworker then!

Seriously, my last post was a joke, implying that Everclear could lead to less-than-ideal results if some of it ended up in the user instead of the finish.

[Brian Holcombe]

Excellent, more for the woodworker then!

Seriously, my last post was a joke, implying that Everclear could lead to less-than-ideal results if some of it ended up in the user instead of the finish.

Depends on what you consider ideal. :cool:

[Ted Phillips]

Depends. Are we assuming that all of the everclear thats used in the process goes into the Shellac?

Seriously, everclear is near-pure Ethanol while DNA is mostly Ethanol. The denaturants don't effect drying performance etc very much in my experience.

The main problem with Everclear is the price. You are paying tax on that ethyl alcohol because it is "drinkable". And you are absolutely right about the hardware store "denatured alcohol". That is usually ethanol, with methanol and other additives to make it undrinkable - and free from tax. Those additives can be nasty and toxic.

I've recently switched to using ethanol stove fuel that I buy from Amazon. It is relatively inexpensive and contains only ethanol (and a little bit of naturally occurring water) plus a "bitterant" to make the enthanol unpalatable - so it isn't taxable. No methanol. No toxins. Really good quality stuff - and cheaper than Everclear.

ModaFlame Ethanol Fuel (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EJVZCH2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

[John C Cox]

John

Is the reason for using Everclear that it is less likely to cause allergic reactions because it does not contain the poisons added to denatured alcohol?

Does Everclear have any negative impacts on performance when combined with shellac?

Stan

Yes on point 1. DNA contains things that make it toxic and very bitter to drink... Those things may or may not hurt the shellac - but some people react to them pretty strongly as it evaporates.. The original and best solvent for Shellac is pure Ethanol...

On point 2 - it depends on the proof.. You must get the 98% stuff for it to dry right in any useful amount of time. The lower proof stuff has more water in it... The more water - the exponentially longer it takes for shellac to harden... You can end up with "mushy" shellac when the solvent has too much water. Also - water in it can end up leaving a hazy finish... That's one reason everybody harps so much about fresh canned shellac and fresh solvent.... The older it is the more water it absorbes.. The worse the shellac dries.. The more likely it is to dry mushy.. Old shellac dry flakes are a different problem....

I had one shellac finish that stayed mushy for the better part of a year.. I believe the issue was water contaminated solvent. It eventually dried out good and hard and has not been a problem since - but I had to be extremely careful about stuff printing it... And I still ended up not being careful enough and leaving several finger prints from picking it up to look at it...

I have heard 99% Isopropyl also works - but it takes longer to dry than ethanol...

[Mel Fulks]

I've bought denatured alcohol that had so much water it would not disolve the flakes. Just made a big gloppy mess. I like
Behkol ,it always works and is a lot cheaper than bar alcohol .

[Edwin Santos]

I have heard 99% Isopropyl also works - but it takes longer to dry than ethanol...

This is accurate. In fact, the slower drying is an attractive feature of 99% Isopropanol for those of us that live in dry climates and want to slow down what seems like instantaneous drying when using DNA on a warm low relative humidity day. Slowing down the dry time allows the shellac to flow out and fuse much better. In addition to Isopropyl Alcohol, some finishers even add wetting solutions like the one Homestead Finishing sells to further retard the quick dry.
I use Isopropyl exclusively as my shellac solvent for these reasons.


I assumed the idea was to combine it with shellac flakes to make liquid shellac.

On the other hand, the OP was talking about Zinsser Bullseye, which is ready to go out of the can or aerosol can. Not much point is adding alcohol of any variety to Zinsser.

In response to Stan's comment there are certainly times I will add it to canned Zinsser when I want to thin the cut for padding or spraying shellac. I tend to favor multiple thinner coats, so usually I am cutting to approx 1lb or even 1/2lb cut whereas it comes out of the can at 2lb for Zinsser Sealcoat and 3lb for Zinsser Bull's Eye.
Edwin

[Lee Schierer]

The solvent in shellac is Isopropyl or Denatured alcohol. The MSDS for both reads: "Vapor harmful. May cause dizziness, headache, watering of eyes, irritation of respiratory tract, irritation to the eyes, drowsiness, nausea, other central nervous system effects, spotted vision, dilation of pupils, and convulsions." So you are wise to be concerned.

You can safely apply shellac outside in freezing temperatures, it will just take longer to dry. Instead of drying in a few minutes, it may take a few hours in cold temperatures. To be safe wait a day or two after application before bringing finished parts inside.

My wife is also super sensitive to odors, so when I started doing the finishing for the trim in our Home office that we are remodeling, I tried wiping on MinWax Fast Drying Poly in our unheated green house. The air temperature never got above 40 on a couple of days and sometimes went down to 10 degrees (F) over night. I found that the poly would take 24 hours to dry to a tacky state where I could apply another coat. I applied at least 3 coats on all the base molding, door and window casing and let the pieces set for an additional 2-3 days before bringing it inside. LOML had no complaints of fumes.

[James Waldron]

I assumed the idea was to combine it with shellac flakes to make liquid shellac.

On the other hand, the OP was talking about Zinsser Bullseye, which is ready to go out of the can or aerosol can. Not much point is adding alcohol of any variety to Zinsser.
They
You can use alcohol to adjust the Zinser to the cut strength you need for your specific application. Zinser is a 3 pound cut, which is pretty hefty for a lot of uses. include a dilution formula on the can for the purpose. Sealing wood surfaces to prevent blotching typically wants a 1 pound cut, for example.

And with Everclear and other brands of beverage grade grain alcohol there are typically two versions, 150 proof and 190 proof. The very best for French polishing and other high end finishing is the 190 proof. Some locations do not permit sale of 190 proof; it is dangerous to drink in undiluted form. The 150 proof does pretty well for most uses, as it contains 25% water. Most denatured alcohol is around 40% water (which is one of its disadvantages by comparison).

[Lee Schierer]

Basically all modern coatings (since lead ceased to be used as a drier) are nontoxic when dried and cured. The health hazards arise almost exclusively during application and drying, when various solvents flash off or otherwise enter the air. Shellac is no exception, though more benign than most. I use high-purity ethanol as you suggest, such that the only real hazard is that of self-immolation during spraying.

High purity ethanol can be dangerous: Inhalation of high concentrations may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness and coma. Causes respiratory tract irritation. May cause narcotic effects in high concentration. Vapors may cause dizziness or suffocation.

[David Bassett]

High purity ethanol can be dangerous....

Ethanol can be dangerous, but it is pretty well understood by most adults. The only effect that may be new to folks is you can get drunk inhaling the vapors, in addition to ingesting it. Way too much at once will kill you out right, too much over time will corrode your liver, make you sick and eventually kill you. But it's basically the same as if you drank it. Methanol, common in the non-drinking alcohol products, seems to do it quicker. (You twitch, go blind, drop into a coma, and then die. Depending on your exposure.) In some parts, those effects used to be pretty well known too: Uncle Daryl got a bad batch of moonshine and went blind.... As an very occasional user, I'm still figuring out my feelings on the risks. I know I'm a lot more comfortable with occasional Ethanol exposure, but not sure if I really inhale enough Methanol with Sealcoat to worry and spend the extra $$$. (I've bookmarked the fuel version to check out as a possible compromise.)

[Patrick Chase]

High purity ethanol can be dangerous: Inhalation of high concentrations may cause central nervous system effects characterized by nausea, headache, dizziness, unconsciousness and coma. Causes respiratory tract irritation. May cause narcotic effects in high concentration. Vapors may cause dizziness or suffocation.

I'm guessing that most people don't need an MSDS to understand the biological effects of ethanol :-).

I particularly like "may cause narcotic effects in high concentration". If nothing else that serves as a useful calibration point between real-world and MSDS-described risks. What the MSDS considers to be "high concentration" is what a lot of folks would deem "comfortably buzzed" (not me, I haven't consumed more than a few units at a sitting in years, bad jokes notwithstanding. I also wear a respirator with an appropriate filter when finishing with shellac).