Novice looking for commercial production advise on sanders, edge gluing

[Ryan Martz]

I am relatively new to woodworking (less than 1 year), so I don't mind asking dumb questions.

I have a business where we make artwork using edge-glued 1x4 ponderosa pine boards. Usually our pieces are roughly 21" x 31.5" x 3/4" or 31.5" x 42" x 3/4". Right now we are just edge gluing them using standard bar clamps then sanding them smooth with an orbital hand sander. We usually make about 20-30 of these pieces a day. After we sand these flat, we give them a coat of pant then put our artwork on them.

Here are my questions:

1) Obviously this process is taking forever and needs to be improved. I have been looking at different sanders and would like to get one wide enough that I can get most of my pieces through. Since we are painting it and not staining, I don't need it perfectly smooth. What I do need is for any ridges from the edge gluing to be flat as well as any texture on the knots. In a perfect world, I could accomplish this in a single pass. I cannot afford to have to pass this through a sander 7 or 8 times. Only one side needs to be sanded.

I have narrowed my purchase down to either a used 37" double wide belt sander (Timesaver from probably the '80s) for $5k, a used single 51" wide belt sander (Timesaver from the late '90s) for about $12k, a new 37" Timesaver Speedsander for $10k, or a new 37" Grizzly double drum sander for $5k. I don't mind spending a little more if it accomplishes getting these pieces through in 1 or 2 passes. My worry with the new speed sander is that it only has a 10hp motor. My concern with the drum sander is that is could be inconsistent. I really, really, appreciate any advise you veterans can give me on this. I don't want to spend $10k on a piece of equipment to have it not accomplish my goal.

2) I am needing to also upgrade my edge gluing system. I have been looking at the JLT systems, but am concerned that they will not be smooth enough because there is no downward pressure. The pieces will be too wide to send through a planer, so consistency is very important. I have also wondered getting several Plano clamps. They seem to offer multiple-directional clamping, but may also take longer to get the pieces into position. Any feedback on this?

Thanks again in advance everyone and I look forward to your feedback!

- Ryan

[Steve Peterson]

Welcome to the Creek.

Is there a reason that you have to make your own large panels? It sounds like most of the value added is in the artwork. Lots of companies with automated assembly lines can make the panels. Why compete with them using manual labor?

You may even be able to buy ready made tabletop size panels at Home Depot or Lowes, although you might get better prices by going directly to the source.

[Kevin Jenness]

That is quite a range of machinery and a small budget. I would recommend a wide belt over a drum sander and a two or three head over a single head. If you don't need the extra width, don't pay for it. A two head wide enough for any of your pieces would be a far better choice than a wide single head unit. You should be looking at 20hp for a single head machine. You may need to upgrade your dust collection. Bear in mind that used sanders can be fraught with problems- you may find a good deal, but if you are not familiar with the machine type you are looking at it would pay to buy from a reputable dealer willing to stand behind the machine or at least get a qualified tech to go over your prospect in detail. If you have the business to justify a wide belt, a good one will pay for itself in short order. There is a wealth of good info on widebelts at the Surfprep website.

Have you considered using a different material such as a panel product or wider material for glueups with fewer joints? Another option is to sub out your substrate production if you don't currently have the capital to make doing it yourself optimally efficient.

[Matt Day]

Think out of the box too.

Do you need to be using solid wood? Would plywood suffice since it’s being painted?

Are you using anything to align the boards during glueup? If not that would help reduce sanding.

And sourcing out the panels would likely be the best way to go. There’s a lot of labor to be saved by not glueing up all those panels by hand.

[Steve Jenkins]

Go to the jlt website and look at their pneumatic panel flattener. A friend of mine has one along with a 12’ 5 or 6 level rack. Works really well.

[Ryan Martz]

Wow, thanks for all the great feedback everyone!

Steve - We have a lot of different sizes and continue to evolve the product. I think once we get our system down, we should be able to produce them pretty cheap with in house labor. I spoke to a couple panel manufacturers early in my process, and they couldn't touch the price I am producing them for.

Kevin - Good points about just getting a new unit with a warranty. My budget isn't necessarily small, I just would prefer to find the middle ground on all new stuff compared to much cheaper used stuff. I mean, I'd be fine spending $30k or $40k on machines if I KNEW that it would be the perfect set up. Part of my rationale is that if I buy middle of the road pieces, that if it ends up not being correct for my ultimate operation, I won't be out as much money.

Matt - For my particular artwork, I 100% have to use solid wood. It doesn't have to be "good" wood, it just has to be a cheap soft wood. For example, ponderosa and eastern white pine has been the best wood while souther yellow tends to be too hard.

Steve #2 - I have looked at that panel flattener and it seems pretty often. When I spoke to JLT, they actually started talking me out of it since the wood I am using is so thin and soft that he deemed it kind of unnecessary.

[Ryan Martz]

If I do go the "new" route, this is what I'm thinking:

Wide Belt: https://www.grizzly.com/products/37-Double-Head-Wide-Belt-Sander/H2934
Jointer (not currently using one): https://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Benchtop-Jointer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead/G0821
Dust Collector (currently using a 2HP Harbor Freight): https://www.grizzly.com/products/5-HP-Industrial-Dust-Collector/G0672
Edge Glue: http://jltclamps.com/8ft_pc

I think this should pretty well cover what I am trying to do, and still cost only around $20k. Thoughts?

[Brian Holcombe]

I usually approach this type of work by first building panels, then jointing/planing them, then making larger panels. The smaller of your sizes can fit though a 620mm planer, so thats where I would head with that, it would save considerable money over running a wide belt to make that panel (In my opinion).

The 31.5" version I would make out of two 16" pieces, join the together and then rip down to final size.

With S2S, I would edge joint the boards, then plane to width (not to thickness) to get a parallel board, then glue up to make 16" panels. I would take those 16" panels, face joint them.

I would then join on another board (perhaps source 1x5 for this) which was face jointed. Assemble so that the joint is accurately seamed. Put the final assembly through the planer using the jointed face as a reference, flip to clean up and bring to final size. Rip to width with a machine capable of a finished cut. Cut to length. done.

For the wide ones, two of those 16" wide assemblies would thickness planed, then jointed together. Touch up the joint with a sander, rip to size, cut to length.

If your careful about grain direction in your glue up, you can get perfect finishes out of the planer.

[Bradley Gray]

I would add a glue spreader. I have this one (http://virutex.com/whitevinylglueapplicatormodelem25d.aspx). Black Bros make a small powered one also. Saves a lot of time and helps put the right amount in place.

[John Kee]

If I do go the "new" route, this is what I'm thinking:

Wide Belt: https://www.grizzly.com/products/37-Double-Head-Wide-Belt-Sander/H2934
Jointer (not currently using one): https://www.grizzly.com/products/6-Benchtop-Jointer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead/G0821
Dust Collector (currently using a 2HP Harbor Freight): https://www.grizzly.com/products/5-HP-Industrial-Dust-Collector/G0672
Edge Glue: http://jltclamps.com/8ft_pc

I think this should pretty well cover what I am trying to do, and still cost only around $20k. Thoughts?

No problem with the Grizzly widebelt but depending on how continuous you are going to be running the unit, the dust collector you have chosen could be problematic especially with plugging the bags with sticky pine sawdust. If running continuous a unit with air pulse cleaning should be considered. The rated CFM is really deceiving too especially when you look at the fan curve in the manual. I also don't know what you are trying to do with a tabletop 6" jointer and no planer, personally I would suggest looking at a minimum of 8" to 12" full size jointer with a separate full size planer or jointer/planer combo.

[Darcy Warner]

I don't know, rip saw, clamp rack, wide planer, possibly a stroke sander instead of a widebelt (yes I know, archaic)

I don't see the point of a jointer for that work if you have a dialed in rip saw.

[Patrick Kane]

I am late to the party, but i agree with people pushing you away from the sander. From my side hustle experience, flattening/fixing a glued panel is closing the barn door after the horse got out. What is the discrepancy in your panel glueups? Are they flat? IMO, a drum sander would be enormously disappointing. I think you would be much better served with a 24" planer and a DF500. For the glue ups that are 31" wide, make sub assemblies and join them for the final glueup with the domino. With 2-3 dominoes across that 45" joint, you might be left with 1/32" discrepancy to sand away. It is more labor, but it seems like you have relatively inexpensive labor. Operating efficiency experts might be able to justify the $20,000 sander investment over the course of 5-10 years, but i think you will see a huge spike in efficiency just by adding a 24" planer. 24" machines are pretty common on the used market, and are typically very inexpensive. Ive seen powermatics at auction less than a grand, and I guarantee if i looked for 5-10 mins, i could send you a list of a dozen SCMI planers for $4,000+/-. I cant imagine ROS sanding panels flat if they had 1/16-1/8" discrepancies. Even with a rotex, i would want to shoo myself.

[Andrew Joiner]

Ryan I have a few questions.
1- What type and how many clamps to make your current 20-30 pieces a day?
2- Will that 20-30 of these pieces a day increase?
3- How do you prepare the edges of the 1x4's now?
4- Can you use 1x10's?
5- Do you fill around knots or select for smooth, sandable knots.
6- How do you get your stock. Delivered units or pick through stacks?

[johnny means]

How about using some type of joinery. A tongue and groove would leave you with nearly leveled joints. It's also cheap and easy to set up.

[J.R. Rutter]

A planer / sander, like a Timesavers, would be ideal for what you want to do. They do pop up used from time to time and have a 36" (or whatever width) helical planer head followed by a combi sanding head that would give two contact points. For example: http://360degreemachinery.com/?p=12905

For a clamp, I was going to suggest a used RF gluer but they seem to be priced at a high premium these days. I got a used Rosenquist EG400 for under $10k delivered years ago. They flatten, clamp, and cure panels in under a minute per piece. Let them sit overnight to fully dry out and plane/sand/size the next day.

Agree that you can forget the jointer - they can do more harm than good for panel glue-ups. I would order ripped parallel edge lumber just glue from that if your supplier can rip to order so the edges are fresh (not oxidized by time).

[Darcy Warner]

I have a feeling he is just using some 1x4 from off the shelf somewhere.

[Ryan Mooney]

There's a local place to me that rents time on a wide belt for really low hourly rates. You might try shopping that part around and see what you can find. The guy by me has been there since forever and I lived down the road for a solid 8-9 years before I found out he was there (we're not in that large of a town either).

[Dave Cav]

My advice would be to forget the Timesavers and drum sanders. Timesavers are normally used hard and by the time they hit the used market they can be pretty beat up, they are very complicated and expensive to rebuild, and some of the pneumatic and electronic parts might be difficult to find. Widebelt sanders are generally the most complicated stationary tool you normally encounter (unless you're running a multi head moulder or a big CNC setup) and they can be difficult to set up and operate.

I have a general aversion to drum sanders, even double drum sanders. They are slow and fussy to change grits, and sand much slower than a widebelt. A lot of people here are very happy with theirs, but I had a Woodmaster and didn't care for it.

My recommendation (since I have had one for several years now) would be a new Safety Speed Cut widebelt. They are relatively inexpensive, simple to operate, adjust and repair and don't have a bunch of proprietary parts. Safety Speed is still in business and has pretty good customer support. I would imagine the Grizzly widebelts are probably fine, too.

Don't forget dust collection. A widebelt sander (or drum sander) MUST be run with dust collection, and they generate a LOT of sawdust. A cyclone setup is a good idea. Widebelts and drum sanders, in a production environment, are hard on dust collector filters.

Widebelt sanders also need compressed air, so you'll need a compressor, too.

[Mark Bolton]

I spoke to a couple panel manufacturers early in my process, and they couldn't touch the price I am producing them for.

I find it hard to believe you cant buy these cheaper even if the manufactured panels are larger than you need an you have some waste. You can buy glued up 4/4 pine shelves at the home center for less than one could buy the raw material for and that doesnt take into account glue, abrasives, tooling, and so on.

For instance we often get requests for thick maple slab counter tops. I simply cant buy the material for what I can buy them for complete.

May be worth some deeper investigation. For instance we can source 18" x 36" x 3/4" thick pine glue ups for $12.00 in small quantities. Thats 2.66/ square foot. We couldnt bring the material in house, surface, glue up, flatten, sand, for that. Not even close.

You might look around your area for some wholesale distribution if you are using any of these in quantity. I'd bet you could knock the numbers way down from there.

[Ryan Martz]

Thanks again for all the good advise guys!

To address a few more questions here:

1- What type and how many clamps to make your current 20-30 pieces a day?
- We are currently just using pipe clamps. However, since we are currently just using 1x12s, the clamping process and getting them lined up straight has been pretty easy. However, we just tried to clamp up the same size using 1x4s and it was a damn disaster, haha. These pine boards were all sorts on wonky. The bar clamps did an ok job, but I either need a lot of downward pressure, or much straighter boards. I worry long term about continuing to use 1x12s because I dont want my pieces cupping a lot over time.
2- Will that 20-30 of these pieces a day increase?
- I plan (and hope) this number will increase steadily over the next couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if it doubled by this time next year.
3- How do you prepare the edges of the 1x4's now?
- Right now we are using 1x12s and not preparing the edges at all. A rep from JLT recommended using a rip saw to rip down 12" boards to 4", therefore likely giving me straighter 1x4s and also giving them a live edge at the same time.
4- Can you use 1x10's?
- I could use any size. I guess the idea would be weighing easy of glue ups vs eventual cupping.
5- Do you fill around knots or select for smooth, sandable knots.
- I do not fill around knots. With the work that I am doing, it is only necessary to sand the knots down smooth, along with any ridges.
6- How do you get your stock. Delivered units or pick through stacks?
- I get stock delivered from Home Depot (I know, I know). However, I usually order pallets full, and from what I understand it is all distributed thorough US Lumber.

As for finding a premade disturber I am all ears. I have made a ton of calls, but just can't seem to find anyone willing to do it for what it is currently costing me. For example, I am getting 1x12's for about $1.10/ft. So if I wanted to make a piece that was 22.5 (2 panels) x 38", I would only be in about $7 on material. If I can get the edge gluing, clamping, and sanding down to just a couple minutes of labor using good machinery, I would think it'd save a ton of money over time. But then again that could be the novice in me with the rose colored glasses.

[Brian Holcombe]

A few minutes sounds very optimistic. IMO, you should calculate the cost of operating your shop for an hour and figure out what it really costs you to make a panel. Typically big industry setup to make certain things makes them at incredibly competitive prices.

[Kevin Jenness]

Ryan,

I mean no offense, but you really should do some homework on basic lumber processing before investing in more machinery. I would strongly recommend outsourcing while you study up. Gluing up Home Despot 1x12's of unknown moisture content and factory edges is inviting a world of misery.

[Marc Jeske]

Ryan - What if - You could get delivered to your door edge glued sanded to 23/32" Finland Pine/ spruce KD to about 10-12% made of approx 3" continuous 96" strips ( no fingerjoint) ripped to your width from 48x96 panels, for $2.20 / bd/sq ft ?

I have first time ordered just such a thing arriving in a few days.

5 - 4x8 sheets, ripped to 29 and 19, supposedly delivered via Fedex ground in 4 packages @ 70 lb each.

$350 total, 48 states I understand.

Larger quty discount may be possible.

We'll see how they look.

Don't want to say more till I see and work with it.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

And also keep in mind your HD Borg or almost anyplace else Pine will be up to about "19%"

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

There's a local place to me that rents time on a wide belt for really low hourly rates. You might try shopping that part around and see what you can find. The guy by me has been there since forever and I lived down the road for a solid 8-9 years before I found out he was there (we're not in that large of a town either).

Definately a good possibility.

Just make sure before you bet on a long term quote, that he realizes its NOT KD nor pitch set... Belts sanding Pine do not last.

Marc

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 37" Houfek Buldog 3 wide belt, its about 9 months old. Prior to this I had a 2001 SCM Sandya .. Simple wide belt sanders are really not that complicated.. Strip the sheet metal off and most things make sense. To own machinery like this means you need to own a meter and a good set of wrenches.. If you don't like trouble shooting and pulling wrenches, don't buy industrial machinery ..

On a used wide belt, look at the conveyor belt.. I would rather replace a main motor than a conveyor .. They also go hard and the material slips.. You can condition them which makes them thinner.. So check the thickness of the conveyor.

Drum sanders are nice for hobby work but not for production. They do an inferior job to a wide belt. My Houfek has an anti dubbing feature that raises and lower the platen so it doesn't round the edges of veneers or soft wood.. It works on timing.. and I also ordered it with Variable feed speed.... Those two features don't work well together .... lol..

A production sander needs a platen .. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used sander if the conveyor was in good shape and I could see it run ..

[Mark Bolton]

As for finding a premade disturber I am all ears. I have made a ton of calls, but just can't seem to find anyone willing to do it for what it is currently costing me. For example, I am getting 1x12's for about $1.10/ft. So if I wanted to make a piece that was 22.5 (2 panels) x 38", I would only be in about $7 on material. If I can get the edge gluing, clamping, and sanding down to just a couple minutes of labor using good machinery, I would think it'd save a ton of money over time. But then again that could be the novice in me with the rose colored glasses.

Thats about 1.20/sq' and no labor. No driving after material, no unloading material, no cutting up material, glueing it up, cleanup, sand paper, and so on.

You can buy pre-laid up shelves at the home center one at a time for 2$ a foot. If you were to purchase in bulk I would imagine you would get that far far below the cost of all the equipment your looking at. Have you done the math on the amortization of cost of the equipment, operating cost, labor, depreciation, as opposed to buying panels? I cant imagine it would be a profitable endeavor even at paying 80 cents a foot more buying retail.

If your in business you should be able to contact some local distribution and possibly get pointed in the right direction but I would imagine youd be looking at unit quantities at the minimum.

Just my .02

[Marc Jeske]

The problem w the panels from BORG - Fast growth South America warm weather fast growth low density, and inconsistent quality glue joints.

May also be from other "offshore" producers.

Also, vendor sources will vary unknown, quality may vary even more due to that.

They look good.. but start to work w them and you will see the quality is not there.

Snap a crosscut over workbench edge, usually the glue joint will fail.

Lastly, be aware most, not all, but most have if not zipper fingerjoints,butt joints. may not be acceptable for stain grade uses.

Now, possibly for wall art panels like the OP said, vs structural furniture, they may be OK.

Depending on what part of USA, panels from Greenwood Forest Products (NO fingerjoints) may be available, Lowe's is their main retailer,but much more $ than foreign. ($4/ ft in link below)

Their panels made in BC, CA are very good, but be aware they also distribute Romanian panels.. I have no experience with those.

And, like all commercial made panels, come in just a few widths.

My supplier I am waiting for (in above post) will custom rip 48" panels to any widths, w purchase as small as five full sheets.

Marc

https://gfp.bc.ca/

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Greenwood-Forest-Products-Common-1-in-x-24-in-x-4-ft-Actual-1-in-x-23-25-in-x-3-98-ft-Edge-Glued-Panel-Spruce-Pine-Fir-Board/1000340137

[Mark Bolton]

The problem w the panels from BORG - Fast growth South America warm weather fast growth low density, and inconsistent quality glue joints.


I have no idea what the end product is the OP is making but I cant imagine its anything critical edge gluing two home center 1x12s together but have no idea.

[Marc Jeske]

I have no idea what the end product is the OP is making but I cant imagine its anything critical edge gluing two home center 1x12s together but have no idea.

True, I was giving info that may make a difference to others reading.

I guess it goes back to if he wants to play with the entire glue up process, or if they have enough business doing the Art portion.

I assume OP knows to paint both sides w his base coats at least.

Marc

Marc

[Martin Wasner]

Belts sanding Pine do not last.

That was my initial thought. You'd be money ahead using a cheap softwood like poplar for what you'd shell out in abrasives.

We have a 12' jlt clamp rack. Pushing hard you can get a couple hundred drawer parts through it in a day, but you're doing the bare minimum clamp up time. A typical load out on a set of clamps is three drawer parts made from six pieces, with two minutes between sets. If you hussle.

Grizzly equipment is too expensive in the long run.

With a good rip saw, you'll shouldn't have to edge anything prior glue up. Rip it, whack it off to length, straight to glue up. Good straight line rip saws can be had for less than $10k, often closer to $5k.

[Jim Becker]

That was my initial thought. You'd be money ahead using a cheap softwood like poplar for what you'd shell out in abrasives..

I'm thinkin' you meant, "Cheap softer hardwood like poplar..." :)

[Martin Wasner]

I'm thinkin' you meant, "Cheap softer hardwood like poplar..." :)

You'd be correct