Breadboard end attached and forgot to elongate holes in tenons

[Joe Dada]

Hi All,

I'm building a dining table.

48" wide
Quartersawn Oak (top is just under 1" thick)
Dry I think
Now in garage, temp 66, humidity 30
We're in Wisconsin, kitchen summer probably around 75 degrees and 55 humidity?

Yesterday I attached one of the breadboard ends and forgot to elongate the dowel holes through the tenons. (I used 3/8" oak dowel pins, 5 of them). Also, my breadboard is non-standard. It is really a skirt and breadboard in one (so it is 1.25" horizontal x 5.25" high (thick if you will)). I can try to send/post pictures if needed -- this is my first post so please forgive any errors/omissions/style faux pas I might be making.

It would be a lot of work to cut the breadboard end off and re-do, and, I'm already a couple inches shorter than wife wants table in the first place.

Am I crazy to leave it as is and "give it a try"?

Thanks so much, in advance, for any advice!

Joe

[Dave Richards]

Since the top is quartersawn, it might not be a problem. Quartersawn oak doesn't expand and contract much across its width.

Can you get the pins out and remove the breadboard end without cutting it off? Maybe drill them out? If not, you could leave it and see what happens. The worst is that you'd have to remake the top

[Yonak Hawkins]

Joe, couldn't you cut it off at the end of the planks, re-dado or re-mortice the end, and make another end piece ?

[John TenEyck]

I think you are headed for trouble The top is going to want to expand (QS oak is still going to expand 1/4" or more over 48") but won't be able to so something is going to give, buckle, etc. I would drill or route out those dowels so you can remove the breadboard end and fix the problem before it really becomes one.

John

[Joe Dada]

No, unfortunately I did glue the center 6" or so) so I don't think I can surgically remove.....at this point that sounds so easy/minor.

[Joe Dada]

To be safe I think I'll have to.....just that I've already undersized the table (length) slightly w/respect to my wife's seating desires.....

[Joe Dada]

Not to discourage other responders.......but wanted to say THANKS so much guys for the fast and thoughtful replies so far -- wonderful!

[Steve Jenkins]

If you can cleanly cut it off then reattach it with a stopped spline instead of tennoning the top all you’d lose is the saw kerf.

[Mark Bolton]

You could remove the skirt/breadboard with a router and just set a straight edge on the table top and use a mortising bit and waste away the applied breadboard/skirt until it falls off or is able to be popped free with a chisel.

Dave is correct that QS is much more stable. The real issue your worried about is the 55% in the summer, and then if you dont run massive humidification in the winter you could swing down close to single digits in the winter. QS or not your hard work wouldnt hold up to that especially if you "think" the material is dry.

[Bradley Gray]

I agree with Mark. Route off the breadboard and make a new one. It is easy to spend more time worrying than it takes to fix a problem.

Just think of how much extra work will be required if you wait for failure, not excluding moving a large, heavy table back to your shop.

[Yonak Hawkins]

...just that I've already undersized the table (length) slightly w/respect to my wife's seating desires.....

Well, how about making your new end pieces wider to extend the length of the table to where your wife wants ? L- or T-shaped end pieces could attach under the table for stability.

[Bill Dufour]

I would drill out the dowels then cut the glued portion off with a coping saw or skill saw. Use the next size up dowels or even square pegs. For the glued section use biscuits. Here is your chance to do inlay with contasting wood species to clean up the cut lines. walnut and ebony come to mind.
Greene & Greene breadboard ends look like an good starting point for you?
Bill D

http://www.mmwoodshop.com/tables/blacker-inspired.html

[tom lucas]

Just a data point. I just finished a top in mahogany with breadboard ends. Breadboards were smooth to the edge of the long boards when I moved it in from my unheated shop. After a few weeks in the heated house, the long boards have drawn in about a 1/4" from the breadboard ends (1/8" on each face, front and back). My top is only 2 feet wide and about 50" long. Yet, you see many a top with no breadboards that stay pretty flat. I made my daughter a hope chest from QS oak. Top is 2 feet wide. No breadboards. Just stiffening stretchers on inside. She's had it about 2 years now and no issues. Of course, 48" wide is a whole nother matter.

[Pat Barry]

I would look at drilling out the dowels, then, from the bottom side, use a router to make a relief hole, lets say 1/2 inch dia just deep enough to get to the crossgrain boards. Then, make your elongated holes, from the bottom. After that make some plugs to fit into the routed holes on the bottom breadboard. Then, drill your dowel holes from the top and install your dowels. Its a bit of work but would give you a clean top side and the elongated dowel holes you need

[Jim Becker]

I would look at drilling out the dowels, then, from the bottom side, use a router to make a relief hole, lets say 1/2 inch dia just deep enough to get to the crossgrain boards. Then, make your elongated holes, from the bottom. After that make some plugs to fit into the routed holes on the bottom breadboard. Then, drill your dowel holes from the top and install your dowels. Its a bit of work but would give you a clean top side and the elongated dowel holes you need


THIS is a great solution!!!!

[Lee Schierer]

If the center 6" of the bread board ends are glue to the table top. All you need to do is drill out the dowels from either the top or the bottom in the areas of the bread board that is not glued. Once you drill through the tenon of the table stop drilling, leaving the remaining portion of the dowel in place. Then cut shorter dowels and put them in the 3/8" holes so that they do not touch the tongue portion. There is no need to elongate the holes in the tenon. The center portion that is glued will hold the bread board ends on the table and the rest of the table can shrink or expand as it wants to. It will still look like the dowels are doing their function, but they aren't needed.

[Bradley Gray]

I like this idea.

[John TenEyck]

No disrespect, but I think the old guys used dowels in elongated slots for a reason.

John

[Tim Bueler]

I would look at drilling out the dowels, then, from the bottom side, use a router to make a relief hole, lets say 1/2 inch dia just deep enough to get to the crossgrain boards. Then, make your elongated holes, from the bottom. After that make some plugs to fit into the routed holes on the bottom breadboard. Then, drill your dowel holes from the top and install your dowels. Its a bit of work but would give you a clean top side and the elongated dowel holes you need

Answers like this are why I read this forum. What a great idea!

[Joe Dada]

381995First — thanks everyone for the excellent input and support. I love the suggestion of elongating from below — but I failed to describe my breadboard ends. Not sure if picture will show...but my “breadboard ends” are 5.25” thick. I know, I know — what in the world was I thinking.....anyway, thanks again all!

[Tom Bender]

With the center glued you only need to get to the dowels in the outer 16" or so on each end. These dowels can be replaced with ones stepped smaller in the tenon area.

[John TenEyck]

With the center glued you only need to get to the dowels in the outer 16" or so on each end. These dowels can be replaced with ones stepped smaller in the tenon area.

If enough of the dowels can be cut away for that work, and still have enough meat left for it to do it's job, that is a brilliant solution! If the dowels are 1/2" you'd likely have to cut away 1/4" on the very outboard ones.

Let's see. 48" of QS white oak with a radial shrinkage of 5.6% per Hoadley. If it's at 35% RH now and will go to 75% in the Summer, the EMC will go from around 6.6 to 14%, sounds extreme but let's use it.

From Hoadley: Delta D = Do x S x (Delta MC/fsp), where Do = initial dimension, S = Shrinkage from Table 6.2, MC = moisture content, and fsp = fiber saturation point


Plugging in some values: Delta D = 48" x 0.056 x ((0.14 - 0.066)/0.28) = 0.71" Ouch. Even if this is vastly overstating how much that top is going to move, it's still going to be a lot, and likely more than the dowels are going to be able to handle by cutting steps in them. The expansion will be 1/2 the amount on each side of center, but that's still 0.35". But if it only ends up being half of that in reality, well, maybe.

Whether or not this is an acceptable solution, the calculation shows the top is going to expand a lot if the RH changes that much. Implementing a solution to accommodate that expansion is better done now than dealing with the failure that's almost sure to happen.

John

[Ryan Mooney]

To expand on Pats idea.. drill out the dowels, cut the slots from the top (because that's what you have) and then make elongated plugs with smaller pin ends that fill the slot in the end but not in the boards (not to hard to turn on a lathe).

[Bill Orbine]

381995First — thanks everyone for the excellent input and support. I love the suggestion of elongating from below — but I failed to describe my breadboard ends. Not sure if picture will show...but my “breadboard ends” are 5.25” thick. I know, I know — what in the world was I thinking.....anyway, thanks again all!

That looks like a lip! Not quite a breadboard. Let me ask...... you have this lip around the entire perimeter of the table top? Mitered in the corners? This lip pictured.....is this piece glue to the entire length of the end of the table?

[Yonak Hawkins]

Joe, this is what I had in mind.

382025

[Joe Dada]

That looks like a lip! Not quite a breadboard. Let me ask...... you have this lip around the entire perimeter of the table top? Mitered in the corners? This lip pictured.....is this piece glue to the entire length of the end of the table?


Yes, this “lip” goes around entire perimeter.

Long “sides” dominoes and glue entire length.

Short “ends” (which I’m referring to as breadboards) just glued center 6”, and they run width of table field, plus width of sides plus about 0.25” on each side(they stick out now but I’m estimating that they’ll be about even with sides middle of summer (high use time here at “the lake”)

[Joe Dada]

Thanks again everyone — can’t believe the support and great ideas. I’ve drilled out all but the center dowels and replaced with plugs that don’t extend in far enough to be in way of tenon movement/expansion. If end/breadboard warps or pulls away unacceptably, then I think I will carefully mill it completely away from table and replace with exact replica (after not forgetting to elongate the dowel/pin holes.

Thanks again all!

[Bill Orbine]

Yes, this “lip” goes around entire perimeter.

Long “sides” dominoes and glue entire length.

Short “ends” (which I’m referring to as breadboards) just glued center 6”, and they run width of table field, plus width of sides plus about 0.25” on each side(they stick out now but I’m estimating that they’ll be about even with sides middle of summer (high use time here at “the lake”)

Sounds like you thought well but forgot the elongation. Me....If this were mine....would take a fein saw (or similar) and cut glued area and dowels (if glued) from underneath to remove this lipped breadboard. Because I have that option. And this is my opinion. There are many more ways about it.

[Tom Bender]

Install the other end first so you have the details worked out.

[Bill Dufour]

You could make the dowels out of metal for extra strength in the turned down area. use epoxy to glue them in.
Bill D.