Pfeil steel

[Mike Baker 2]

Hi, can anyone tell me what tyoe of steel the Pfeil chisels are made from? All I get from their ad copy is "Swiss alloy".
Thanks.

[Bill Houghton]

It's a secret formula involving chocolate.

[James Pallas]

It's a secret formula involving chocolate.

The same kind of chocolate they used to put in C-rations. You could touch that stuff with a bayonet.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

I found this link (http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/product-information.html). I'm not 100% sure that Im interpreting it correctly because I can't find what the footnotes are tied too. But Note 3 seems to say CrV steel. If that's so, it still isn't much - but it's a little more than "swiss alloy".

[Mike Baker 2]

I'm just looking for something similar to o1 or HCS when it comes to sharpening. I use older vintage chisels as well as the Aldis chisels, which are CrV, I think. Just want to make sure it's not A2, or one of the "super steels" or modern steels.

[Mike Baker 2]

From the link you posted, it looks like they will do. The last note they make on the right in this link is the one I'm interested in. If they will hone with Arkansas I'm good to go.

http://www.pfeiltools.com/en/products/sharpening.html

Thanks.

[Bill Houghton]

If you're looking for O1, you might look at these: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69619&cat=1,41504

[Mike Henderson]

I'm just looking for something similar to o1 or HCS when it comes to sharpening. I use older vintage chisels as well as the Aldis chisels, which are CrV, I think. Just want to make sure it's not A2, or one of the "super steels" or modern steels.

It's definitely not A2 or one of the modern "super steels". I can't tell you what's in it, but from working with Pfiel tools, I'd say the metal is very similar to a plain carbon steel.

Mike

[John C Cox]

The best info I have come up with is that it is some sort of proprietary equivalent to DIN 1.2210 / L2 / 115CRV3... That's approximately 52100 with a bit more carbon..

It seems a bit more stain resistant than stuff like O1 and W1 - which probably means more Cr and probably a pinch of V for grain refinement.. And it's not quite so beautifully dry feeling on the stones... Pfeil is not known for any sort of sharpening stone trauma - so you know they don't go too far afield...

[Mike Baker 2]

Many thanks, gentlemen.
Bill, thanks. Would love to own the Veritas O1, but the price is too high for my budget. I was considering Ashley Isles, but finding them in individual chisels is near impossible; I can find sets, but I'm trying to buy a 3 or 4 piece set, one at a time as funds allow. The Pfeil are just a bit more pricey, but look to be more readily available.
On that note, has anyone here had any current issues with Woodcraft?
I placed an order with them about two years ago. Did not receive shipping notice or product for a couple of weeks. Emailed them, got no answer, and finally, after about a month chasing my tail, ended up cancelling my order and have not dealt with them since. But they are still in business, and carry the Pfeil, so I'm assuming they got whatever it was straightened out.

[Mike Henderson]

I haven't had any problems with Woodcraft but I tend to use my local store, not the Internet. If you're going to buy Pfiel carving tools, you should go handle them first. Also check the sweeps to make sure you're getting what you need.

Mike

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Mike.

[David Bassett]

... I was considering Ashley Isles, but finding them in individual chisels is near impossible; ....

TFWW (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TBBC/item/IL-100-40.XX) sells them individually, but has trouble keeping them in stock. If you aren't in a rush or get lucky they should (eventually) be able to get you the sizes you want.

[John C Cox]

My (2 month old) Pfeil is certainly a good chisel and they have a confortable octagonal handle - but in all honesty - unless you want really fine side bevels - the new $15 Marples, Two Cherries, and Ashley Iles are great chisels at 1/3'or 2/3 the price..

And if you do want fine side bevels - the Woodcraft Socket Chisel is a good choice at about the same price.

Any of those 4 chisels are on par with the Pfeil for general bench work.... I probably won't buy any more of the Pfeils... It's not that they are bad - they just don't stand out against the others...

Currently - the Woodcraft socket chisels are my go-to bench chisels. I just like the way the feel... And on the stones - they are fantastic and dry feeling... And they touch up super fast. If you already have good vintage Stanley 750's - they won't give up anything to the Pfeil...

[Warren West]

This is supposedly an analysis of the carving tools. Can't speak to the methodology or resulting accuracy. You'll need Google translate for that link unless you can read it natively.

https://www.tallamadera.com/articulos/herramientas/gubias-guvias-gurvias/133-elegir-gubia-4

I've had some Pfeil bench chisels and honestly I'd say they are nothing special against any other European maker. I like their carving tools because they don't make them overly thick as the English and many other makers do. For all around bench chisels, I'd prefer Stubai. Cheaper and the steel seems tougher.

I'd probably get the AI over both though because I don't care for the giant "German/European" style handles unless you've got mits like Andre the Giant.

One other European set I do like and it's because of the handles, are the Two-Cherries with the dark red plastic handles. I'm sure it's heresy here to admit to liking a chisel with a non wood handle, but these have a great shape to them unlike their wood handled brothers and don't have the uncomfortable steel hoop at the end.

[Patrick Chase]

This is supposedly an analysis of the carving tools. Can't speak to the methodology or resulting accuracy. You'll need Google translate for that link unless you can read it natively.

https://www.tallamadera.com/articulos/herramientas/gubias-guvias-gurvias/133-elegir-gubia-4

The composition numbers obviously came from XRF analysis (the giveaway is that Carbon isn't included in the measurement). Other than the Mn being a touch low it's basically O1.

Mn is incorporated in steels to "neutralize" any Sulfur that may be present in the Iron, so it looks to me like an O1 variant that's been tweaked a little bit to take advantage of a low-sulfur iron feedstock, analogous to how Hitachi White is tweaked relative to most other HCS.

[John C Cox]

It's really not a standard alloy of anything... Either a O1 with half the Mn or a W enhanced 1.2210..

The thing is... Reputable cutting tool makers don't generally fool with their alloy much once they get their process sorted out and they are making good quality tools if they can help it... The exception is if an entire alloy stream completely dries up - say their main mill goes under... Then - they gotta go sort out supply with a new mill - and that means re-validating their entire process and product quality all over again.... Pfeil, Two Cherries, Ashley Iles, and even Stanley are small players in the steel alloy business... No doubt they work closely with 1 mill to produce what they specifically want...

[Mike Baker 2]

in all honesty - unless you want really fine side bevels - the new $15 Marples, Two Cherries, and Ashley Iles are great chisels at 1/3'or 2/3 the price..

And if you do want fine side bevels - the Woodcraft Socket Chisel is a good choice at about the same price.



I do admit that the fine side bevels are preferable; I have cheaper chisels for rough work. But thicker side bevels aren't a deal breaker. My one vintage 750 isn't that fine in that regard, either.
I have a 6mm vintage Fulton, and 12mm Fulton and a 1/2" 750. I have not tried the Fultons yet, but I think they will probably do just as well as the 750 for what I wantthem for; finer work. That means I have the equivalent of 1/4 and 1/2. I would like a 3/4, as well as a 1/8 to round out the set.
I have considered the Woodriver socket chisels; the steel is similar to what I'm used to, and they go down to 1/8. Not available until May 1st, according to their site, but I'm not in a hurry. I am still learning,and it will be a bit before I really need even the ones that I have.
Thanks, everyone.

[Patrick Chase]

It's really not a standard alloy of anything... Either a O1 with half the Mn or a W enhanced 1.2210..

It's going to behave like O1, and that's consistent with what I see from my own Pfeil carving tools.

In a steel like O1 Mn is mostly there to "encapsulate" Sulfur into MnS inclusions, so that it doesn't form an oxide along the grain boundaries. If the Sulfur content of the iron is significantly lower than the upper limit for O1 (<0.03%) then you can reduce the Mn content a bit without compromising its properties.

[John C Cox]

For general bench work... Inexpensive chisels to tide you over... Try out one of the current production Marples blue chip chisels... I liked the first one I bought so much I got the 6 piece set. Mine hold up way way better than the Aldi chisels and sharpen reliably on about everything out there... Very nice dry feeling steel that sharpens easily. They run about $15 each individually and a lot less in the set.

Thanks


I do admit that the fine side bevels are preferable; I have cheaper chisels for rough work. But thicker side bevels aren't a deal breaker. My one vintage 750 isn't that fine in that regard, either.
I have a 6mm vintage Fulton, and 12mm Fulton and a 1/2" 750. I have not tried the Fultons yet, but I think they will probably do just as well as the 750 for what I wantthem for; finer work. That means I have the equivalent of 1/4 and 1/2. I would like a 3/4, as well as a 1/8 to round out the set.
I have considered the Woodriver socket chisels; the steel is similar to what I'm used to, and they go down to 1/8. Not available until May 1st, according to their site, but I'm not in a hurry. I am still learning,and it will be a bit before I really need even the ones that I have.
Thanks, everyone.

[Robert Engel]

A good source for Pfeil is chippingaway.com.

I find they are consistently 10-20% cheaper than Woodcraft.

[David Bassett]

A good source for Pfeil is chippingaway.com.

I find they are consistently 10-20% cheaper than Woodcraft.

Thanks. They're having a sale on Pfeil right now, but I can't find the single bevel bench chisels Woodcraft carries, (not necessarily stocks, but that's a different grievance,) and are what some of the chisel discussion is about.

[John C Cox]

I think Woodcraft is the "Official USA Distributor" of those bench chisels... Interesting that their more standard European pattern bench chisels basically dried up here in the USA when these new ones hit the market...

[Warren West]

For general bench work... Inexpensive chisels to tide you over... Try out one of the current production Marples blue chip chisels... I liked the first one I bought so much I got the 6 piece set. Mine hold up way way better than the Aldi chisels and sharpen reliably on about everything out there... Very nice dry feeling steel that sharpens easily. They run about $15 each individually and a lot less in the set.

Thanks

I guess I'm not the only one that thinks these are decent for lots of work. I have a couple of the current production run too and I think they are not bad. I think for awhile under Irwin they weren't very good but perhaps they got things in order and quietly improved them or we got lucky with picks. I don't mind the handles either. I can't say the same for the Aldi handles. I don't think the Stanley Sweethearts or Narex have much over them.

[Frederick Skelly]

I guess I'm not the only one that thinks these are decent for lots of work. I have a couple of the current production run too and I think they are not bad. I think for awhile under Irwin they weren't very good but perhaps they got things in order and quietly improved them or we got lucky with picks. I don't mind the handles either. I can't say the same for the Aldi handles. I don't think the Stanley Sweethearts or Narex have much over them.

Nope. Your not alone. I have a set and like them fine.
Of course, I have Aldi's too. :)

[Mike Baker 2]

I guess I'm not the only one that thinks these are decent for lots of work. I have a couple of the current production run too and I think they are not bad. I think for awhile under Irwin they weren't very good but perhaps they got things in order and quietly improved them or we got lucky with picks. I don't mind the handles either. I can't say the same for the Aldi handles. I don't think the Stanley Sweethearts or Narex have much over them.

I have considered the Irwins, but I have an old Marples they are patterned after, and I gotta say, I don't care for the plastic handles, but that is not a deal breaker. I certainly do like the way the blade itself is designed, and the thinness of the side walls. The weight difference is. It is a heavier chisel. But they are still under consideration.
As for the Aldis chisels, I much prefer their weight. The handles aren't anything a saw, scraper, file or rasp and new finish won't cure. At least you can alter them to better suit your preferences, which i plan to do.

[John C Cox]

Mike,

Here's a side view pic of several different 1" chisels.
The WoodCraft socket, Pfeil, and Ashley Iles all have reasonably thin and comparable side bevels. Of all of these - the AI is the lightest and has a very nice balance.

https://s9.postimg.org/rnm5ghbsv/image.jpg
Left to right:
Stanley Fat Max standard length (UK)
Ashley Iles
Marples
Two Cherries
WoodCraft wood river socket
Pfeil
Aldi
Woodcraft green handle 115CrV3

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks. Those WC socket chisels are really looking more and more appealing. I think when they come in stock that will be my choice, although I'm not crazy about the bulbous look of the handle. What is the feel in the hand?

[David Bassett]

Thanks. Those WC socket chisels are really looking more and more appealing. I think when they come in stock that will be my choice, although I'm not crazy about the bulbous look of the handle. What is the feel in the hand?

Website lists some sizes in stock now....

They look interesting to me, but reading the description, "... Tempered ... to HRC58-63", is troubling. That doesn't seem to be very tightly controlled. (Plus, I don't really understand what 100 CR-V steel is, or is like.)

I think I want someone to cough up the cash and do a thorough review before I jump. Get you to volunteer? :)

[John C Cox]

I really like their feel for regular bench work. I don't have small hands, though... I am an extra-large glove wearer.... I don't feel like they are a large or clumsy/bulky handle.. YMMV.. It wouldn't be too hard to make a new handle if you thought they were too big though..

Granted - I am doing mostly guitar duty stuff which is mostly like paring - not dovetailing boxes where I would be mostly chopping with a mallet.....

[Mike Baker 2]

I really like their feel for regular bench work. I don't have small hands, though... I am an extra-large glove wearer.... I don't feel like they are a large or clumsy/bulky handle.. YMMV.. It wouldn't be too hard to make a new handle if you thought they were too big though..

Granted - I am doing mostly guitar duty stuff which is mostly like paring - not dovetailing boxes where I would be mostly chopping with a mallet.....

That would be one of the main uses for these chisels, instrument work. But I would be using them for dovetail work as well.
David, if I buy I might do a review of some type.

[John C Cox]

Website lists some sizes in stock now....

They look interesting to me, but reading the description, "... Tempered ... to HRC58-63", is troubling. That doesn't seem to be very tightly controlled. (Plus, I don't really understand what 100 CR-V steel is, or is like.)

I think I want someone to cough up the cash and do a thorough review before I jump. Get you to volunteer? :)

David - I did a mini review of them. Posted it on here a couple weeks ago... Unfortunately the thread got completely derailed by alloy and sharpening discussions (that never happens here, though... ;) )....

Steel wise - the best I can come up with is that this "100CrV" is a proprietary high carbon, low alloy steel that's somehere along the lines of W2. It benefits from an overnight in your deep freezer (which makes sense if you look at the TTT diagram for W1 and W2 steels...). It sharpens very quickly and easily on anything you already use.. It has a beautiful, dry feel on the stones... It doesn't form a nasty/tenacious wire edge. It's very easy to refresh on a strop. The backs and bevels are very well prepped and hardly require any work. Mine did improve cutting performance with a good round of aggressive prep, though. Dimensionally - they didn't need it..

I bought 4 of these chisels - none were "Too hard" or "Too soft". I don't like soft chisels...

[David Bassett]

David - I did a mini review of them. ...

Thanks, I found it with search:


<Woodcraft Wood River socket chisels review>

You're right, it got lost in the noise.

I'm enjoying all the various threads because I'd like to intelligently upgrade my chisels. (Currently I keep going back to some low-end LV(?) butt chisels because they're good enough for now and the Narex bench chisels I bought as an upgrade are so clunky they haven't been used... yet at least.) You make the Woodriver chisels sound good enough I'll probably end up buying one to try eventually. But no rush just yet and in holding off I may avoid flushing more cash in another failed experiment.

[John C Cox]

Well - It would probably be a bit of a drive - but you are welcome to come on over and give them a spin... Conveniently located out in the woods near Mytle Beach, SC...

[David Bassett]

Well - It would probably be a bit of a drive - but you are welcome to come on over and give them a spin... Conveniently located out in the woods near Mytle Beach, SC...

Thanks, but I think I could buy a couple chisels for gas money that'd take. :)

ETA: I was curious and looked up the distance. If my wife would lend me her Prius, just gas money would buy me several small sets to compare and play with.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, I found it with search:



You're right, it got lost in the noise.

I'm enjoying all the various threads because I'd like to intelligently upgrade my chisels. (Currently I keep going back to some low-end LV(?) butt chisels because they're good enough for now and the Narex bench chisels I bought as an upgrade are so clunky they haven't been used... yet at least.) You make the Woodriver chisels sound good enough I'll probably end up buying one to try eventually. But no rush just yet and in holding off I may avoid flushing more cash in another failed experiment.

This is my issue. I have enough chisels that will "do the job"; I'm looking for a set for finer work. i don't want just another set of bench chisels, but I don't have the cash to go crazy. The WR look like a good compromise.

[Larry Frank]

Sometimes, I find these threads distressing. There is so much guessing about the steel and heat treatment. As a metalllurgist, I would not even begin to guess about these things without knowing the chemistry. The Mn and S combine to form MnS and precipitate as the steel is solidifying. I do not think there is any encapsulation going on.

There are some good comment concerning the usability of the chisels.

[John C Cox]

Sometimes, I find these threads distressing. There is so much guessing about the steel and heat treatment. As a metalllurgist, I would not even begin to guess about these things without knowing the chemistry. The Mn and S combine to form MnS and precipitate as the steel is solidifying. I do not think there is any encapsulation going on.

;) ;). What would be left to talk about if we only had to stick to verifiable facts and stuff we knew about? Wood? Woodworking? That's crazy talk.. I mean where are we going to find any of that? ;) ;) ;)

[John C Cox]

Thanks, but I think I could buy a couple chisels for gas money that'd take. :)

ETA: I was curious and looked up the distance. If my wife would lend me her Prius, just gas money would buy me several small sets to compare and play with.

Seriously - $40 would get you here and back with $15 left over in a Prius. ;) ;)

[David Bassett]

Seriously - $40 would get you here and back with $15 left over in a Prius. ;) ;)

1- $40 would also cover a chisel to play with, and...

2- at 5600 miles round-trip and $3.00 per gallon, that's 672 MPG. Our Prius doesn't come close to that, certainly not with me driving.

They say it's the thought that counts and I appreciate the thought, but I'm gonna' have to pass on the drive. (Still enjoying the discussion, I guess I should let it get back on topic though.)