chisel steel

[Brandon Speaks]

Hi guys,

I have a set of wood river chisels which work well enough. I would like to potentially buy one or two premium chisels though and then slowly build a set, the idea would be that these are lifetime heirloom quality tools I wont replace. Because of this I am not particularly price sensitive.

My question comes down to steel. In the knife world, which I am more experienced in than the tool world, I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." What I am wondering is how does this overall philosophy translate into chisels. I like the concept of Lie Nielsen socket chisels which can easily have a new handle made, but feel like their A2 steel may not be the best fit. LV 01 chisels sound more like my type of steel but I am less enthusiastic about the tang rather than socket. Blue spruce are beautiful tools but have both problems. LV PM V11 seems like another contender, but has the same issue of a tang as their 01, although if it really is as easy to sharpen as 01 and has edge holding properties of A2 maybe the trade off is worth it.

I guess the question comes down to the steel it's self mostly, what are the advantages and trade offs of 01, A2, and PM V11. Its not out of the question to buy one of each and test how they work for me, but thought it was worth looking for an informed opinion first.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you will like tang chisels if you give them a chance. They are the traditional choice for cabinetmaker and joiner work. Many chisels today, however, have very poor tangs which are clumsy to put handles on. A good tang should be square in section and taper uniformly to a point.

I think 1095 would make a fine chisel. Many of the current makers are way off on another tangent. I would avoid the "premium" junk.

[Mike Baker 2]

There is a ton of knowledge here, and people that can speak to the various differences in the steel itself. I'll let them chime in with that.
But I think you are going to find a lot of opinion or work philosophy as well.
From reading threads like these, there tend to be two basic camps; one that says choose steel that will take and hold an edge longer, but might(I stress might) be more difficult to resharpen, and the other which basically says choose simple carbon steels that are easily resharpened, take less time, etc, but take a fine edge.
i am in camp two, partly out of budget constraints, but mostly because when my blades dull I can go to the stone and be back to work with a very sharp edge in less than a minute, generally. It suits the way I prefer to work, but I am new, so have a lot to learn.
This quote "I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." , sort of has me thinking that might be where you're at as well.
Now I'll sit back and read what the more learned around here have to say, and try to learn some more.

[Stanley Covington]

I agree with Warren. A tang and ferrule chisel is better in the long run than socket construction for most applications.

Re steel, it depends on what kind of work you plan to do, your requirements for sharpness, and your sharpening skills.

Plain high-carbon steel will get sharper than any other, and stay sharper, up to a point. It will also be easiest and quickest to sharpen, depending on your definition of sharp.

If you are satisfied with a medium-sharp edge to begin with, one that dulls relatively quickly, but will hold that dullish edge for a long time, and you don't mind spending more time on the stones, A2 is OK. You can tell I don't like A2 very much, despite having planes with A2 blades. I have 6 Lie-Nielson socket chisels with A2 blades too. They are good for weeding the garden.

I have no experience with powdered metal for chisels, so will let others address it.

Rust is a concern for knives, but not usually for chisels. I assume you will take care of them. But if rust is a real issue, the HC steel is not for you.

[Brandon Speaks]

Thanks for the replies so far, since I do want a really good edge, and dont mind sharpening (actually rather enjoy it). Also Stanley, my point was that I am not afraid of rust, even for a hunting or camp knife I prefer a HC steel like 1095.

My impression is that 01 is a similar steel to 1095 and should have the similar properties that I like. I do think it is slightly harder, but much closer to 1095 than something like an A2 would be. If I take socket vs tang out of the equation based on other comments I assume the Veritas 01 chisels might be a very good choice.

[Nathan Johnson]

Similar boat.
I have four of the Narex premium, but I'm looking at the Ashley Iles MKII. They may be the best looking chisel I've seen, and O1 to boot. Seem tough to find individually though.

[Derek Cohen]

Brandon, I would look into Japanese chisels. They will give you the best of both worlds: steel that holds its edge, and is yet easy to hone. The only "difference" is that the blades are laminated rather than a simple mono steel. They are tanged, but in the same way that the Veritas are tanged - a combination tang and ferrule. The other point of note is that they are a little different to Western chisels in that the bench chisels, while they may be pushed, are best used with a steel hammer (gennou).

A popular good brand is Koyamaichi. I have a set and they are excellent value for money. About the same price as Veritas and Lie-Nielsen, so in the range of the premium chisels.

Among the Western chisels, the best tanged and O1 I know by reputation, are the Ashley Isles.

EDIT: I feel I should add that you have nil to be wary of the Veritas PM-V11 chisels. As mentioned above, they are tanged/ferruled exactly as the Japanese. The steel hones fairly easily, and feels like O1 in use. However they hold an edge considerably longer. Considerably so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Philipp Jaindl]

I have a set of the Ashley Iles MK2 with Bubinga Handles. They have held up perfectly fine being struck with a Wooden Mallet, the O1 Steel (61HRC) is excellent they take a great edge and have good edge retention also really easy to get sharp again, the Profile they have is very well suited for Dovetails the sideflats are 1mm at most near the tang.

Overall i can only recommend them, i really like them especially at the price they are.

Recently got 2 Koyamaichi's they are very well made and take a fantastic edge though i havent used them enough to really comment on Edge retention or how well they hold up overtime.

[ken hatch]

Brandon,

I'm with Warren and Stanley, Tanged chisels tend to have better balance than socket chisels and if treated with just a little skill will last your lifetime and more. One other thing don't look for one chisel type to do everything. Get a good set of Japanese chisels for chopping things like the waste between dovetails and another set of either Japanese paring chisels or Western patternmaker chisels for fine work. For chisels simple HCS works best, of course YMMV.

ken

I just want to add: Ashely Iles makes a very good traditional HCS tanged chisel for a midrange price. My only criticism is the, I believe, Bubinga handles which are a little heavy when compared to a Boxwood handle.

[John C Cox]

TLDR: Based on what you are asking for... Here is where I would recommend you start off:
Ashley Iles, Veritas O1, Barr, Woodcraft socket chisels, Narex, or Marples Blue Chip current production. Pick based on your budget and features... Yes - there are still performance differences due to heat treatment... But these all fit your criteria....

I have done far too much investigation into chisels lately....

Here's what I have come up with so far:

Most western chisel alloys run 0.8-1% carbon. Some do run up above that...

The most common alloys of steels used currently are commercial/national variants of W1, W2, and O1.. The brands highlighting some flavor of chrome steel are likely variants of 52100. The Chinese chisels calling out miscellaneous Chrome Vanadium steel are probably some flavor of W2 because most won't quench hard in oil....

It appears that many are using the variants of W2 and O1 because they will readily cooperate with industrial production methods and they are VERY easy to sharpen on any media (including cement and bricks)... If the steel feels good, smooth, and "dry" on the stones - it'a likely a flavor of one of these, and it has a more dull look that may rust easily... Several German manufacturers are still using W1... It makes very good chisels but is more tricky because it really needs a brine quench...

In this camp: Marples current production, Ashley Iles, Barr, Lamp brand, Aldi, Buck Brothers, Veritas O1, Woodcraft Socket Chisels, Ace Hardware Premium chisels. I believe Narex also shakes out here... Most of these alloys have some Mn as well as V - so calling it a Cr-Mn steel isn't strictly wrong...

If the steel feels more gummy on the stones but still takes an edge well on "regular" stones, and are more shiny and a bit more resistant to rust - it's probably some variant of 52100. Stanley Sheffield made chisels including Fat Max, Bailey, and Socket chisels were advertised as EN31 - which is an EU equivalent of 52100... Good stuff - but you can feel the difference on the stones... Word is that Pfeil is some variant of a 1.15% carbon bearing steel otherwise similar to 52100... And based on their look - I would not be surprised to find out Two Cherries falls out in this camp as well..

A few makers use other stuff like like A2 and PM-V11... These can be fantastic, but will probably do best with new modern stones or diamond...

But the steel alone doesn't tell the whole story - the "Quality" of the forging process and heat treatment makes a big difference as well.. And that shows itself in how they work and how they hold up...

[Mike Baker 2]

Not to derail this thread, but the AI chisels are mentioned a lot, yet I can never find them in stock anywhere. Note that I would prefer the buy them individually as time and budget permits.
Where are you getting them?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I bought a set of the AI from the best things. Tools for working wood has them as well in sets. With shipping and tax I think I spent about 200 for six chisels, which was about 1/2 the LN/LV, or 1/3 the blue spruce. They only come in O1 (not a problem for me).

Over the winter it has been very dry and some of the ferrules loosened. Very easy to fix though.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thank you.

[brian zawatsky]

I think you should seriously consider Japanese chisels. I found myself in your position a few months ago and have since been slowly acquiring some quality Japanese chisels and loving every minute of it. The sharpness of the edge that can be achieved is beyond compare, the steel is super hard yet durable. Because of the construction (soft iron of the main chisel body with hard steel - like Rc 64 - hammer welded on) there’s no need to mess with secondary bevels which makes sharpening simple. Also chopping with these chisels and a steel hammer is a religious experience lol. They don’t “feel” like any other chisel I’ve ever used.
Pick up one or two and try them out, see what you think. If you send Stan a private message I’m sure he could provide much more assistance...

[John C Cox]

If you want them individually - I would first start with a call to The Best Things and see if he would order you one or two... If he can't get them this way - you can always order them straight from the UK... Or put a want ad here on SMC and see if anybody has a couple they want to pass along...

I got a set of them and I like them very very much....

[ernest dubois]

Many people like their vintage EA Bergs and these are highly reputed, I know I have one and think it is superior. But this brings up the element almost entirely left out, namely, anyone who knows steel the way the smid knows steel will tell you, get that good steel, the one suitable to your needs and wants but that is only half the story because without the right treatment the steel itself doesn't matter. Maybe the ones who know will tell us all about the ht of the finished products they like and recommend so much. Would be interesting to see.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi guys,

I have a set of wood river chisels which work well enough. I would like to potentially buy one or two premium chisels though and then slowly build a set, the idea would be that these are lifetime heirloom quality tools I wont replace. Because of this I am not particularly price sensitive.

My question comes down to steel. In the knife world, which I am more experienced in than the tool world, I tended to like 1095. It does rust and does dull more quickly but I can easily get a really good edge on it compared to some of the modern steels that "take a bad edge and hold it forever." What I am wondering is how does this overall philosophy translate into chisels. I like the concept of Lie Nielsen socket chisels which can easily have a new handle made, but feel like their A2 steel may not be the best fit. LV 01 chisels sound more like my type of steel but I am less enthusiastic about the tang rather than socket. Blue spruce are beautiful tools but have both problems. LV PM V11 seems like another contender, but has the same issue of a tang as their 01, although if it really is as easy to sharpen as 01 and has edge holding properties of A2 maybe the trade off is worth it.

I guess the question comes down to the steel it's self mostly, what are the advantages and trade offs of 01, A2, and PM V11. Its not out of the question to buy one of each and test how they work for me, but thought it was worth looking for an informed opinion first.

Brandon

Since others have mentioned Japanese chisels first, I will chime in.

The best steel for woodworking chisels has always been high-purity, plain high-carbon steel. Since ancient times. The modern alloys have some advantages, but nearly all of those advantages benefit the manufacturers more than the end-user as the alloys facilitate low-skill fabrication techniques and heat-treating with fewer rejects. Most modern chisels are not made by blacksmiths, but by unskilled, minimally-trained factory workers following a formula. Consequently, per-unit costs are very low. The resulting quality is barely useable, IMO. I think Wind River chisels fall into this category perfectly.

While material costs may be lower than high-alloy modern steel, plain high-carbon steel is difficult to work with, and quite impossible for untrained factory workers to use to produce a quality chisel in a cost-effective manner. It is temperamental to forge. It has a narrow range of temperatures that work for quenching and tempering. If the blacksmith misses that range, the steel will not harden properly, or will be irreparably ruined. It also always warps when heat treated, so the blacksmith must anticipate this warpage and shape the blade accordingly. This means a curved blade goes into the water, and a straight blade (should) come out. This takes experience to get right.

Plain HC steel also tends to crack when heat treated. Experience and care minimize this, but some rejects always result. The cost of doing business.

The ability to deal with these difficulties is part of the "mystery of steel" that for millenia gave blacksmiths the reputation of having magical powers as they manipulated in the secret the 5 elements of earth, wind, fire, water, and natural magic.

Modern chemistry (metallurgy) has made it possible for unskilled labor, even Chinese peasants, to mass-produce useable blades at low cost. Manufacturer's profits are thereby increased, but quality/performance is decreased compared to traditional methods/materials. So the question is, are you satisfied with "useable" quality blades, or do you want the quality only a master blacksmith working HC steel can provide?

If you want chisels made from the best steel, to high quality standards, you have two choices. The first option is to find hand-forged antique chisels of the kind Warren uses. The Brits, the Swedes, and the Americans, among others, made some excellent chisels in past centuries. I own them and have used them, and value their quality and performance highly, although they tend to be a little softer by design than I prefer.

The second option, and the only choice if you want new product, is to buy hand-forged Japanese chisels made from high-purity plain high-carbon steel. The Japanese chisels tend to be harder, and hold an edge longer than their Western counterparts. If a Western chisel with its simple design is made to the same hardness, there is a real risk of breaking the blade. Sad to say I've done this before. The Japanese solution is to forge-weld a layer of high-carbon steel, which forms the hard cutting edge, to a softer low-carbon steel body/neck. The softer steel handles the bending and shear forces that would otherwise snap the blade in half. The result is a tough chisel that can be driven with a steel hammer all day long without breaking, is easy to sharpen to a fiercely sharp edge, and will retain that edge longer. It is a very clever and very effective design driven by the Japanese fetish with sharp cutting tools. Many non-Japanese craftsmen value these chisels highly.

Despite appearances, Japanese chisels are not socket chisels, but tang & ferrule construction. The ferrule is cone shaped providing the handle more strength than a simple tubular ferrule, but it is a ferrule nonetheless.

I hope this helped.

Stan

[bridger berdel]

I've been rust hunting vintage chisels for decades. I've had quite a number pass through my hands, and a few dozen that have stayed around. I can heartily recommend old steel. I do like socket chisels just fine but I don't consider them to be superior, necessarily. I guess for chopping the more robust construction of a socket makes some sense, but that only goes so far as both have wood handles.

Most of the tang chisels I have have been sharpened pretty short. Not surprising as they are considerably older, but it means i don't have like comparisons for very many uses. I do like the feel in hand of a hand forged tang chisel.

I guess the point is good chisels don't have to be new, or expensive if you're willing to make a practice of hunting for them.

[Derek Cohen]

Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer (https://www.thetoolworks.com.au/henry-eckert-mortise-chisels-available-in-6-sizes/) using PM steel in chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer (https://www.thetoolworks.com.au/henry-eckert-mortise-chisels-available-in-6-sizes/) using PM steel in chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek:

Interesting points.

Re ergonomics and manner of use, that is a matter of personal preference, and while it can be argued back and forth till the cows come home, it is a decision each person must make themselves.

Re vintage versus modern steel, I hope that metallurgy advances to the point where Chinese peasants are able to make chisels with performance that exceeds the best of the currently available Japanese blades. The number of Japanese craftsman able/willing to hand-forge high-quality chisels is dwindling every day, and I don't see anything of comparable quality and performance ready to replace this product anywhere else. I hope that changes.

I think that LV and LN and others are making an effort to provide high-quality chisels because there is a demand for quality and performance, and they found a way to make money doing it. Their founders struggled and worked hard, and not likely to forget what has brought them success. But I strongly suspect this was driven in large part as a reaction to Japanese chisels as recommended by James Krenov. 50 or so years ago Western manufacturers slowly but surely entirely abandoned quality and performance in exchange for superficial appearance and increased profits. LV and LN learned that many would pay more for a better tool than a Stanley FatMax concrete beater. What was a niche market has expanded, and now we even see Stanley resurrecting their old designs, albeit it appears they have not been able to overcome the engrained habit of selling appearance while sacrificing performance.

Vintage chisels are nice, but they are now firmly in the collector market, and as such can only decrease in availability and increase in price. No viable future source of working chisels there.

I don't hold much hope that there is a bright future for mass-produced high-quality chisels. The McDonalds fast-food style of business management is very firmly rooted in the minds of corporations. Namely, develop a good product that makes a decent profit, promote it like crazy, develop a fan-base, make money. Then management changes, and someone in management sees that they can increase profits, and quarterly bonuses, by using cheaper materials and taking shortcuts in production. Profits increase a little. Quality decreases a little. This is repeated until the once-popular product is despised, and sales drop off. The marketing department suggests a bigger advertising budget, or a new and improved sauce. Quality does not improve. This cycle repeats itself until stock value drops and the organization is "restructured." Some companies find their way back. Many don't. But in the meantime, and this is a critical point, the consumer's expectations were adjusted down. I can remember when the Big Mac was a really good hamburger. The ones available in the US are terrible. The Big Mac sold in Japan is much better, if still far from the original. I hope this analogy makes sense.

LV and LN still have their first generation leadership. How will the second generation behave? Will new men with firm standards for quality and customer satisfactions and new ideas come forward? I hope so. It never happened with Stanley. They have a saying in Japan: "Until the third generation," meaning that few businesses survive 3 generations of leadership even if they started with a good product.

Two cents.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Stan

I obviously did not make my points clearly enough in the second issue.

It is not about the leadership of these companies, or whether LV and LN are making high quality chisels - they are, but that is besides the point. They are going down very different paths: LN are using a steel (A2) that is readily available and easier to manufacture - the very points you used earlier in your criticism (these are fine chisels nonetheless - the finer points of O1 are lost to many, and A2 surfices). LV, on the other hand, are using a steel (PM-V11) that is intended to meet the criticism of grain size in modern abrasion-resistant steels. This is possible future replacement for the craftsmen hammering at HCS to align the grain to produce the quality we find in Japanese blades. In other words, there is a manufacturing process that can challenge the work of dedicated olde world craftsmen (yes, this saddens me on one level).

The questions I ask are whether this is progress? Will it change the future of craftsmen?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Stan

The questions I ask are whether this is progress? Will it change the future of craftsmen?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I left that crystal ball around here somewhere, dagnabit..... let me go check my toolchest. Be right back...

I guess my answer is the same as what I wrote above. Allow me to simplify.

1. I think that the art of blacksmithing applied to high-quality tools is not likely to improve, but becomes darker with every passing day.

2. But I hold out hope that metallurgical advancements just might keep things from getting too bad. Technology and engineering has developed at a frightening rate during the last 60 years, and may well continue to progress.

3. On the other hand, as I asserted in my previous response, modern business methods are very likely to adulterate metallurgical progress by exchanging quality/performance for marketing/appearance, in order to maximize profits. To make things worse, modern craftsman have decreased expectations and are easily deceived, and are unlikely to insist on high quality/performance long-term. For most people, absolute lowest cost is more important than quality/performance. Harbor Freight Tools is a symptom.

4. We have good examples of excellent tool manufacturing in LV and LN and others, who have and may continue to buck the bad aspects of modern business methods. But that will depend on the integrity of the leadership/ownership of those companies.

5. Integrity in business seldom lasts more than 3 generations, so I do not have high expectations for long-term progress in chisel quality.

In summary, I have some hope, but Murphy is always in control, and human nature will almost always betray high expectations.

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

Chicken! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Chicken! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/6d/bd/9b6dbdd06eeded9045fd434ba4ea222d.jpg

[ernest dubois]

The decline into squalor or the oppression and domination of technology, neither an inevitability, the question is will the individual once again assert themselves. A'course we do have that climate thing now which is a real bummer.
My friend Martin Claudel is doing some very nice work in collaboration with woodworkers.

[Mike Baker 2]

https://youtu.be/AEk97V_EH0I

[Stewie Simpson]

W1 and 01 steels credibility has been under constant attack since the release of PMV-11.

[Derek Cohen]

W1 and 01 steels credibility has been under constant attack since the release of PMV-11.

No, that's quite incorrect, Stewie.

To the best of my knowledge, in the past 35 years, W1 was only used by LN. It was ousted by O1 and A2 for the same reasons that A2 began to replace O1.

O1 was never "under attack", but modern manufacturers began to prefer A2, since this was more reliable (and therefore cheaper) to manufacture. Again, as I understand, W1 is even more likely to warp than O1 when heat treating.

PMV-11 has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Indeed, it is seen as a replacement for A2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John C Cox]

What does the future hold?

I think we only need to look at the Guitar world, custom knife making, and yes - hand made woodworking to see the answer is staring us right in the face..

40 years ago - there were only a handful of custom one man shops hand making guitars... They existed only in 2 places - giant big cities and hidden country backwaters... Now - there are thousands and thousands of people making and selling very high quality instruments out of one man shops....

40 years ago - the story was the same for custom knife makers.. There were only a very few.. If you wanted a good knife - you went Case or Buck... Now - same for custom guitars... Thouands of people are making and selling high quality hand made knives...

In the woodworking universe - 40 years ago you could get a blue Stanley plane, a Record, or a German made woodie if you could find one.. Maybe a Miller's Falls if you could find them outside the North East USA or Titan down under.... And nobody even considered making their own woodies... And look at where we are now... Lots and lots of people making their own high quality furniture... The demand for tools is on the rise - and there is a hobby universe starting to take shape......

It wouldn't surprise me to find more guys like Quenton Barr, Leonard and Rob Lee, and Tom Lie Nielsen showing up on the scene... And if these guys want to make a name - they gotta be on their game and produce something worth buying... That means they better be a lot better than the Mc Chisels being cranked out of the factories overseas... And perhaps even better than the established name brands which are resting on their laurels...

[Stanley Covington]

I like it! I like it a lot!

[Warren Mickley]

In the woodworking universe - 40 years ago you could get a blue Stanley plane, a Record, or a German made woodie if you could find one.. Maybe a Miller's Falls if you could find them outside the North East USA or Titan down under.... And nobody even considered making their own woodies... And look at where we are now... Lots and lots of people making their own high quality furniture... The demand for tools is on the rise - and there is a hobby universe starting to take shape......


Nobody was making wooden planes 40 years ago? It is not the first time I was called Nobody. I was making wooden double iron planes more than 40 years ago. The jack plane I made in January 1978 is still the one I use.

Speak for yourself, John.

[John C Cox]

Warren - you know exactly what I am talking about because you did it... But you also did it as part of a historical woodworking program - and you showed people how to do it because nobody was doing it.... It was a few guys in the entire USA like yourself, probably George Wilson, Jim Krenov, and eventually Roy Underhill showing people how to do it so it wouldn't die out... There were no articles in Popular Mechanics or the woodworking mags about making your own wood planes...

Hobby woodworkers making their own woodies was nowhere near a "common" practice done by average woodworkers in the 1970's... You couldn't get irons unless you made your own or stole them out of old broken woodies... Nowhere even close to what we have today where it's not uncommon for a hobby woodworker to make a plane or two just to do it.... My grandfather made stuff for 60 years and never even fooled with one (probably by choice)... My dad has for 50 years and no wood planes there either.... Yet I have made 2 now...

[James Waldron]

One feature of modern chisels (at least Western chisels; I can't speak knowledgeably about Japanese chisels) is the up and down variations in quality that seems to be seen. As one example, I have several Robert Sorby pattern maker's chisels that take and hold an edge just fine for all uses I've put them to.reject. Others reject them as much too soft. (And Stan rejects them as softer than his Japanese chisels, a point I'll happily concede.) The reports on the Sorby chisels seems to vary depending on when they were made, not in some linear fashion of steady decline, but in a more seemingly random fashion. Mine are relatively recent manufacture, probably ten years as I recall; they were a gift so I can't be too precise. I've seen variability in heat treat distortions in plane blades from "after-market" blade makers as well, some coming out with nicely flat backs while others from a different order from the same maker are frustratingly hollow or bowed.

I suspect that some of our present day makers aren't quite as experienced and knowledgeable as their predecessors.

[Hasin Haroon]

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used.

Derek

Derek, are the modern koyamaichi as good as yours that you have had for a while? I know they use a mechanical press to forge weld the two layers of steel currently - would that still be as sublime as a completely hand forged chisel? I ask because the koyamaichi chisels were on my wishlist for a little while, and the quoted section is very high praise.

[John C Cox]

One feature of modern chisels (at least Western chisels; I can't speak knowledgeably about Japanese chisels) is the up and down variations in quality that seems to be seen. As one example, I have several Robert Sorby pattern maker's chisels that take and hold an edge just fine for all uses I've put them to.reject. Others reject them as much too soft. (And Stan rejects them as softer than his Japanese chisels, a point I'll happily concede.) The reports on the Sorby chisels seems to vary depending on when they were made, not in some linear fashion of steady decline, but in a more seemingly random fashion. Mine are relatively recent manufacture, probably ten years as I recall; they were a gift so I can't be too precise. I've seen variability in heat treat distortions in plane blades from "after-market" blade makers as well, some coming out with nicely flat backs while others from a different order from the same maker are frustratingly hollow or bowed.

I suspect that some of our present day makers aren't quite as experienced and knowledgeable as their predecessors.

Jim - you hit right head on the biggest thing chisel makers fight.... If you look at the history of Berg - old man Berg was constantly fooling with heat treatment and alloy trying to get better results out of his chisels.. Less warpage, more consistent heat treatment/hardness, fewer problems with cracks, decarburization, etc... He never stopped chasing "Better".... But that also means that some batches were "worse"... It's simply the definition of "Average" - some are better, some are worse.. If they are all "the same" - your measuring equipment is not good enough. ;)

But a hand maker has one major luxury that a factory does not have. That luxury is the ability to chase "perfect".. If the steel needs a bit different treatment or a bit different tempering to reach certain results - they can do this... The factory cannot. They shove a big batch of parts into the oven and hits "Start".. They run a fixed process - and out comes what comes out...

The other luxury of a small maker is that one batch of steel lasts a lot longer... I was looking at Marples chisels at Woodcraft the other day... There was a batch ID etched on the blades... There were 8 different "batch" ID's within the stock on their rack... What differentiates a batch? Steel lot, heat treatment, operator, shift, production date? No idea... But that is a lot of different production codes.... I found a set that has the same batch ID as the Marples chisel I bought that was very good - and it came home with me... The whole set is very good... But I have heard reports that others are too soft.. What happened there? Steel? Heat treatment? Training a new operator? No idea...

A Japanese smith may buy 1 batch of steel per year... Some may buy 1 batch every several years... Certainly the wrought iron backer could be "the same" for 20+ years - whatever he can get out of a Ton or two of 200 year old anchor chain, boat anchor, or bridge pieces...

[Warren Mickley]

Warren - you know exactly what I am talking about because you did it... But you also did it as part of a historical woodworking program - and you showed people how to do it because nobody was doing it.... It was a few guys in the entire USA like yourself, probably George Wilson, Jim Krenov, and eventually Roy Underhill showing people how to do it so it wouldn't die out... There were no articles in Popular Mechanics or the woodworking mags about making your own wood planes...

Hobby woodworkers making their own woodies was nowhere near a "common" practice done by average woodworkers in the 1970's... You couldn't get irons unless you made your own or stole them out of old broken woodies... Nowhere even close to what we have today where it's not uncommon for a hobby woodworker to make a plane or two just to do it.... My grandfather made stuff for 60 years and never even fooled with one (probably by choice)... My dad has for 50 years and no wood planes there either.... Yet I have made 2 now...

Some weird ideas in this post. When I made planes in the 1970's I was working at home, in the basement, not "as a part of a historical woodworking program". At that time there were several catalogs that offered wooden planes: Woodcraft Supply, which at that time catered exclusively to hand tool woodworkers, Garrett Wade, also much more woodworking and less gadgets, and a few others. Both Wade and Woodcraft offered double iron coffin smoothers and English style jack planes at very reasonable prices. And a company in New York, The Tool Works, offered a long list of single and double irons, both tapered and parallel in their catalog, handy for making wooden planes.

[Stewie Simpson]

Some weird ideas in this post. When I made planes in the 1970's I was working at home, in the basement, not "as a part of a historical woodworking program". At that time there were several catalogs that offered wooden planes: Woodcraft Supply, which at that time catered exclusively to hand tool woodworkers, Garrett Wade, also much more woodworking and less gadgets, and a few others. Both Wade and Woodcraft offered double iron coffin smoothers and English style jack planes at very reasonable prices. And a company in New York, The Tool Works, offered a long list of single and double irons, both tapered and parallel in their catalog, handy for making wooden planes.

Warren; to be fair you were the 1 that raised the initial confusion.


Nobody was making wooden planes 40 years ago? It is not the first time I was called Nobody. I was making wooden double iron planes more than 40 years ago. The jack plane I made in January 1978 is still the one I use.

Speak for yourself, John.

[Stanley Covington]

Jim - you hit right head on the biggest thing chisel makers fight.... If you look at the history of Berg - old man Berg was constantly fooling with heat treatment and alloy trying to get better results out of his chisels.. Less warpage, more consistent heat treatment/hardness, fewer problems with cracks, decarburization, etc... He never stopped chasing "Better".... But that also means that some batches were "worse"... It's simply the definition of "Average" - some are better, some are worse.. If they are all "the same" - your measuring equipment is not good enough. ;)

But a hand maker has one major luxury that a factory does not have. That luxury is the ability to chase "perfect".. If the steel needs a bit different treatment or a bit different tempering to reach certain results - they can do this... The factory cannot. They shove a big batch of parts into the oven and hits "Start".. They run a fixed process - and out comes what comes out...

The other luxury of a small maker is that one batch of steel lasts a lot longer... I was looking at Marples chisels at Woodcraft the other day... There was a batch ID etched on the blades... There were 8 different "batch" ID's within the stock on their rack... What differentiates a batch? Steel lot, heat treatment, operator, shift, production date? No idea... But that is a lot of different production codes.... I found a set that has the same batch ID as the Marples chisel I bought that was very good - and it came home with me... The whole set is very good... But I have heard reports that others are too soft.. What happened there? Steel? Heat treatment? Training a new operator? No idea...

A Japanese smith may buy 1 batch of steel per year... Some may buy 1 batch every several years... Certainly the wrought iron backer could be "the same" for 20+ years - whatever he can get out of a Ton or two of 200 year old anchor chain, boat anchor, or bridge pieces...

The Japanese blacksmiths that make chisels for me are using material they stockpiled 15 and 20 years ago. They tell me that is very difficult to get Hitachi to supply them with white and blue paper steel nowadays because the demand is so low. So when they do order, they must do so in bulk and divide it among the blacksmith community they reside in. There is also a lot of material available from retiring/dead blacksmiths who bought in bulk in past years.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, are the modern koyamaichi as good as yours that you have had for a while? I know they use a mechanical press to forge weld the two layers of steel currently - would that still be as sublime as a completely hand forged chisel? I ask because the koyamaichi chisels were on my wishlist for a little while, and the quoted section is very high praise.

Hi Hasin

There is a slight, but discernible difference between the 1980 and 2010 vintage chisels. It is hard to put a finger on it. The older chisels look slightly different .. softer lines. In use, they seem a little easier to hone. Not enough difference to write home about.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ernest dubois]

The Japanese blacksmiths that make chisels for me are using material they stockpiled 15 and 20 years ago. They tell me that is very difficult to get Hitachi to supply them with white and blue paper steel nowadays because the demand is so low. So when they do order, they must do so in bulk and divide it among the blacksmith community they reside in. There is also a lot of material available from retiring/dead blacksmiths who bought in bulk in past years.

Maybe they can order it from Dictum out of Metten who's got it on hand. It's only a joke. I would like to get my hands on the Hitachi as well, in the meantime the smid I go to is using Uddeholm which he does wonders with.

[Brandon Speaks]

Stan, I mentioned Japanese chisels earlier, as well as Veritas PM-V11. Another point I touched on was that Western and Japanese chisels tend to be used differently. Finally, commentary has included vintage Western laminated blades and their worth. There is a thread that weaves its way through this, and in your post, that I would like to toss up for further discussion.

I am also aware that Brandon, the OP, is a knife maker and understands steels, and so would enjoy his participation here as well.

There are two issues: the first is how the decision to purchase Japanese and Western chisels is influenced by the way they are used. Western bench chisels tend to be all rounders, that is, one can hit them with a mallet or push them by hand into the cut. By contrast, when I pick up a Japanese bench chisel, I also always pick up a gennou. It is rare that I will push a bench chisel. If this is needed, a slick is instead used. (Yes I know that a hooped chisel can be pushed, but the Japanese chisels are designed to be struck, and best used this way).

The blade length of the average oire nomi is short compared with the Western bench chisel. The two chisels tend to have a different feel, a different balance. Recommending Japanese chisels because of their wonderful blades ignores that the newbie may find the change unsettling. I switch between the two styles all the time, and do not think much about it, but am reminded of this by this thread.

Perhaps Warren might comment on the vintage laminated Western chisels he uses, and whether he has compared the styles with laminated Japanese in regard to their ergonomics.

The second issue is that of vintage vs modern steel. I agree with you that good laminated Japanese blades are sublime. I am reminded of this when using my Kiyohisa slicks. The Koyamaichi mentori I have used for the past dozen years are better than the best modern Western chisel I have used. There is no doubting that these blades have been the result of many years - centuries - of experience with steel and its preparation. What of the Western counterparts available today? The point you made above is that shortcuts are taken to create a working blade, and that the product is mediocre (compared to what Japan can offer). That is not the part I wish to draw attention to (as I agree). Over the past 10 years I have been exposed to a number of different modern steels: A2, M2, M4, 3V, D2 and a few others. The first one that I have been excited about is PM-V11. This is the first use of powdered metallurgy that balances edge durability and steel workability (i.e. ability to sharpen easily). In this, there is a similarity to laminated blades to achieve the same goals.

This is not about PM-V11, however. My thoughts lie with how manufacturers in the future will be able to design steel composition in a way that the past blade masters could only have dreamed of doing. The question is not whether this will become a reality, but when it will be commonly available for woodworking tools. PM-V11 is just the beginning. I know of at least one other manufacturer (https://www.thetoolworks.com.au/henry-eckert-mortise-chisels-available-in-6-sizes/) using PM steel in chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My knife making might not make me a huge expert here. I have tried my hand at forging, but came to the conclusion that the time my day job requires would not allow me to learn it well enough presently. I have made many knives via stock removal methods mostly using high carbon steel, much of it salvaged from old saw blades. I take it as a given that only about half will make it through heat treatment and give the results that I want.

Unfortunately I knew more about 5 years ago when I did this a lot than what I still remember today.

What I did learn through hard use of many knives though is that I do not like many of the modern steels. I am a big fan of 1095 in fixed blade knives (and have made some from 01 that were similar). I have given away all my benchmade and other fancy steel knives, I never seem to get the edge that I want compared to 1095 and similar blades and I dont mind the sharpening involved to keep the HC blades in good working order.

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?

[Brandon Speaks]

Would the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"

[Derek Cohen]

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?


Would the ones on the LV site described as Japanese dovetail chisels fit this category? Also would you want the separate set of their "push chisels"

Hi Brandon

If you want "investment" Japanese chisels, we should wait for Stan to comment. Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing - unless you do not use them and they are irreplaceable.

The site to purchase from - not LV for investment quality - is Japan-Tool (http://www.japan-tool.com/) Be prepared to wait for delivery. My Kiyohisa slicks were a 3 year wait several years ago. I believe that they are now a 5 or 6 year wait ...

https://s19.postimg.org/yqzd7ig83/Kiyohisa.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John C Cox]

I would be interested in trying some Japanese chisels, what would I likely be looking at from an investment perspective? I probably can afford the very best but would want something representative of the potential quality, even if it means only buying one to start and then adding slowly. Also what type of steel hammer is used for them?

The hand made Japanese chisel market is a lot like the American custom knife market.
There is bog standard factory made stuff
There is utility grade hand made stuff meant for contractors
There is first quality grade hand made stuff meant for professionals. These are often made in small workshops and the smiths do use power tools, presses, and buy alloy..
There is insanely high priced presentation grade stuff that elevates chisel making to an Art... These may be fully hand made - and machines may not touch them depending on the maker... These guys may go so far as to smelt their own steel for the blades out of ore...

Price wise...
The factory made stuff can run $20/3 piece set
The high end could easily run you $5,000 for one chisel...

Pick your poison.

[Brandon Speaks]

Hi Brandon

If you want "investment" Japanese chisels, we should wait for Stan to comment. Personally, I do not believe there is such a thing - unless you do not use them and they are irreplaceable.

The site to purchase from - not LV for investment quality - is Japan-Tool (http://www.japan-tool.com/) Be prepared to wait for delivery. My Kiyohisa slicks were a 3 year wait several years ago. I believe that they are now a 5 or 6 year wait ...

https://s19.postimg.org/yqzd7ig83/Kiyohisa.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

All I meant by investment is what should I plan to spend. They will certainly be user tools.

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks Derek, that's helpful, as always.

[brian zawatsky]

Brandon-

I'm no expert but I can share what limited experience I have with this stuff.

I purchased 2 oirenomi and a shinogi-style tsukinomi from Stan. Oirenomi are standard bench chisels, and the tsukinomi is a long paring chisel with a triangular profile. All are single-hollow backs, and in general are well made no-frills chisels. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly the three chisels plus shipping from Japan were around 200 bucks total, and he had all three in stock so I had them in like 4 or 5 days. The paring chisel cost as much as the two bench chisels combined - it is a much larger chisel with a much thinner & more delicate blade.

I also purchased several Masashige dovetail chisels from Hida Tool which I like very much. They were more expensive than Stan's chisels, but the fit and finish were just as good if not sligtly better, and the steel seems to be of identical quality. Both the Masashige and Stan's C&S branded chisels take a laser-sharp edge (much sharper than you can get A2, IMO) and hold it for considerably longer than 01. After chopping a drawer's worth of dovetails with the 9mm oirenomi from Stan, the edge was still sharp enough to take hairs off my arm. YMMV

The thing I like about the Masashige (sold as "Ari nomi") is that they have zero side lands so you can get right into sharp corners on pin sockets and tail sockets without bruising the adjoining surfaces. Other so-called dovetail chisels (more accurately described as "shinogi" nomi) that are out there DO have flat side lands similar to most western bench chisels. Another nice thing about ordering from Hida Tool is that they are in Berkeley, CA and they actually carry inventory (imagine that!!!) so you dont have to wait for weeks just to get an email back saying your order is months out. I ordered, they shipped next day, and I had chisels 2 days later. But I am impatient; that may not matter as much to you.

I do have a wide, multi-hollow (called "mitsu ura" in Japanese) usunomi on order with Stan right now that had to be custom made by his smith, but I am happy to wait for that quality. Stan let me know what the wait time was going in, and it was not extraordinary by any means (approx 1 month), nor was the price. I highly recommend you talk with him, he won't steer you wrong.

[Stewie Simpson]

Both the Masashige andStan's C&S branded chisels take a laser-sharp edge (much sharper than you can get A2, IMO) and hold it for considerably longer than 01. After chopping a drawer's worth of dovetails with the 9mm oirenomi from Stan, the edge was still sharp enough to take hairs off my arm. YMMV

Brian; you have unwittingly exposed my incompetence at sharpening western W1 HCS chisels. The best I can achieve is a sharp edge.

The same can be said about my western saw sharpening abilities. Progress has really stalled on trying to get those saw teeth sharp enough that they will cut through wood like butter.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/sharp/DSC_0340_zpszuoabfuv.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/sharp/DSC_0340_zpszuoabfuv.jpg.html)


Open to the prospect of continually improving my sharpening skills I did a quick google search on a Laser Sharp Edge . Nothing popped up on Japanese Chisels but I did come across the following product. http://afn.com.au/product/sharpmaxx-knife-sharpener/

[brian zawatsky]

Stewie, you’re trying too hard.

You know, looking at the picture you posted it seems to me that if you stopped subscribing to Paul Sellers’ convex bevel YouTube channel you may have more luck getting a satisfactorily sharp edge. Just a suggestion, or course.

[John C Cox]

And we never even managed go get talking about chemically sharpening chisels and plane irons.... They do it with fish hooks.. I mean - you can get an edge 1 atom wide. ;).

That will certainly end all the sharpening discussions! ;) ;)

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160257006A1/en

[steven c newman]

Doubt it..and..what would I do with all the popcorn in the popper?
381967
Been a "go-to" chisel, lately....