End grain blow out on raised pannels

[Mike Holbrook]

For some reason I keep getting a message saying I do not have permission to post pictures..login and try again. I am loged in.....I am a contributor......still working on it.

I am tryng to finish up some raised pannels. I am using a Veritas skew rabbit plane, trying to make a 3/8” rabbit on the edges of the pannels so they will fit in the grooves, made on a router table. I sharpened the blade on the plane and tried to sharpen the wheel that makes a groove in front of the blade. I am still having issues with the grain seperating and lifting, particularly at the corners. Admittedly this is a compound corner. My Veritas skew block plane does not seem to help either.

[steven c newman]

Something like this?
381635
Cross grain cut? (handsaw can deepen the spur's cuts on the end, to prevent "blowout") or..
381636
Edge grain? I do end grain first, then the edge grain to clean out after the end grain cuts.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I don’t know a cure other than light cuts with a sharp blade. Maybe pare until you are close and finish with the plane.

[Derek Cohen]

For some reason I keep getting a message saying I do not have permission to post pictures..login and try again. I am loged in.....I am a contributor......still working on it.

I am tryng to finish up some raised pannels. I am using a Veritas skew rabbit plane, trying to make a 3/8” rabbit on the edges of the pannels so they will fit in the grooves, made on a router table. I sharpened the blade on the plane and tried to sharpen the wheel that makes a groove in front of the blade. I am still having issues with the grain seperating and lifting, particularly at the corners. Admittedly this is a compound corner. My Veritas skew block plane does not seem to help either.

Mike, just plane the raised panel without a rebate on that side.

I place the rebate on one side ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m1ca796c7.jpg

Add an angled subfence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_50ead493.jpg

Raise the panel on the other side. Then continue the taper until it fits the groove ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m2c47d02a.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_3d5d8ae8.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the tips Steven. I actually did the cuts with the grain first. I can see how doing it the other way would have been smarter.

I have tried using a small Japanese, thin, flexible blade, saw to make corner plane lines with mixed results.

I think I figured out I needed to change my depth of cut when going from with the grain to cross grain cuts. Cross grain is more difficult and demands a smallower cut with the little wheel cutting deeper in front of the blade, so it actually cuts through the end grain before the blade raises it up. Should have figured that out sooner. The grain in this SYP seems to be comparatively wide compared to what I am use to. It may be some fast growth rings that are just wider.

Right Nicholas, I think I also adjusted my depth of cut thicker and started pushing harder, trying to finish up the long grain rabbits. Not thinking about how those adjustments would work on the end grain.

Nice work Derek! I thought about adjusting the back sides of the pannels, but not until I had started on the face, viewable sides, dumb! I am actually roughing the edges out at the moment. It would look wierd to switch now, doing 8 pannles. I am planing to do final adjustments on the back, not viewed sides. Great tip!

I hand planed the raised edges on my pannels, so they are not going to be exactly the same. Probably should have taken the time to make an angled fence, live & learn..! Hmm, I do have an adjustable Veritas fence for my Veritas planes....maybe I can set it up and clean the raised areas up.

Great ideas!

[Simon MacGowen]

One more suggestion if you have not done that: You engage the nicker (for cross cut grain), then start the plane by pulling it back at the far end a few times towards your body. You would want to score the cross grain fibre at the beginning.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Mike, just plane the raised panel without a rebate on that side.

I place the rebate on one side ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m1ca796c7.jpg


Raise the panel on the other side. Then continue the taper until it fits the groove ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m2c47d02a.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

That's a clever maneuver!

Simon

[Richard Line]

You've already received many good ideas that will probably solve the problem. One little detail I've learned through trying to do cross grain rabbets is to not only have the spur cut the surface grain, but then follow that with a knife to cut the cross grain on the edge of the board, to the depth of the rabbet. That really has help to keep the cut from blowing out at the end.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great thread, thanks to all the posters for the great ideas!

I have discovered a thing or two about using the Veritas Skew Rabbet plane. Set up for this plane has proven to be a little more difficult for this user. I could not figure out why my fence was habitually not up against my work piece. I discovered that if the blade is not at or slightly in front of the pre cut wheel then the rabbet the plane cuts is not as wide as you think you have the plane set for. The depth the wheel is set to cut is also more important than I initially realized. I am now setting the wheel deeper than I initially thought was necessary.

Another issue I had is this Skew plane is designed to work from one direction only. I had some problems flipping boards and discovering that the blade was raising the grain in some places. I am now using a Veritas Custom Smoothing plane and a Veritas Skew Block plane in concert with the Rabbet plane. The Block Plane’s wheel is set extra deep for scoring the far side of the corners. The Block plane is also bevel up vs the bevel down Skew Rabbet, making the Block plane a little better on end grain. I have the Smooth plane set up for a shallow cut so I can clean up the rabbets the Skew Rabbet makes without having to constantly readjust the depth of cut. It also comes in handy for relieving edges, so things fit better. The Skew Rabbet’s & Block planes cap irons do not adjust as close to the blade as the Smooth planes. The mouth on the Rabbet Plane is not adjustable which can limit the quality of cut. It takes a medium to heavy cut easily, setting it for a light cut can be a challenge, YMMV.

More planes, can we have too many? I am dealing with this issue by using standard Smooth and Block planes to assist my Rabbet plane.

[steven c newman]

Find a good #78...
381741
With the grain = retract the spur ( the spur will follow the grain..)
I drag the plane backwards about 4-6 times when going cross grain, before any cuts are made.
You can take the depth stop off, lay the plane flat on the milled side and use it like a shoulder plane.

Across the grain = use the spur. make sure the side of the iron projects just a hair beyond the side of the plane.
381742
That shaving is three feet long, and I could see through it...
381743
Nice and clean.

[Mike Holbrook]

Adjusting the pre cut wheel on the Veritas Skew Rabbet can be a PITA. Hint, do not try to adjust that wheel with magnetic screw drivers. The wheel rides on an axel. The axel slides in & out and has to be turned to an exact position to adjust the cutting depth. The wheel does not fit on the axel tight so it is hard to tell where it will end up after it is tightened. Getting both adjustments correct without any real reference can be a challenge.

In regard to adjusting the blade, there is no side to side adjustment. Side to side adjustment is crucial in my experience with this plane. If the position of the blade and wheel are not fairly exactly aligned the size of the rabbet changes, which is a real problem for a Rabbet plane. The in & out blade adjustment is controlled by a tab on a wheel that has to be alligned with the blade, then engaged. One has to do this while trying to hold the cap iron in position to tighten the lock down screw, easier said than done. Once the depth adjustment is moved the entire mechanism goes haywire if the tension on the cap iron screw is not exactly correct, again easier to say than to do. For one off jobs this may not be an issue as these adjustments are only made once. Working 8 raised pannels with cross & long grain (requiring depth & wheel adjustments), needing to resharpen both the plane blade and the little wheel, the adjusting of this plane can be tedious. I am having substantial issues eliminating chatter along the plane blade. The tedious adjustments make it hard to dial out the chatter.

[steven c newman]

With any luck, by this time tomorrow evening, I will be raising a panel..in Pine. IF any thing will "blow out" pine will....will post the results when done. Unless someone wants a "step by step" on how I mine....

[Mike Holbrook]

I am heading back to the “cabin”, new home this PM. I plan to finish my 8 raised pannels for the four shutters I am making Steve. I may follow Derek’s method and make an angled fence or two for my planes. I actually have a Veritas adjustable fence that fits Veritas Custom planes, which I believe will fit my Veritas Skew Rabbet plane as well. I made my joints without a guide. The adjustable fence may allow me to set it for one angle, so they will all be the same. Any suggestions about how to do this are appreciated.

I will reread Derek’s site regarding his methods. I just don’t think it mentions the angles for raising pannels. My other issue is I have rabbets on both sides of my raised pannels, as I had started on the fronts before I read Derek’s suggestions....I think Derek angles his rabbets, so I started angling the rabbets on both sides of my pannels, hoping it would make them stronger.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, my rebates (rabbets) are square, not tapered.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Square to the edges..
382184
One can also use a combo plane for this, IF you want to mess around with the spurs..
382185
Slight blow out..not a biggie, as the edge grain cut will erase it...

[Mike Holbrook]

382245382244

So for some reason I am now able to post pictures. Maybe the connection here in North Georgia had problems. In retrospect the edge does not look too bad for end grain. The second picture taken early in the project. The first one is current.

I am wondering if there is a difference between rabbet and rebate, other than a spelling variation. Lee Valley uses rabbet in reference to their planes, which is why I have been using rabbet. My dictioany defines rebate as a rabbet? Maybe there is a unique, to woodworking, definition of rebate? Sometimes there is a British/King’s English original spelling and an American variation/bastardized version.

[Brian Holcombe]

The nicker May be dull, or not protruding enough.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have tried laying the wheels flat on a stone and abrading the flat side. I have also tried holding the edge against a stone and rotating it as I attempt to abrade the edge. I am certainly open to any other suggestions regarding sharpening these wheels. Sharpening and setting these wheels is not as easy to do as it is to discuss, at least in my experience.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, for this kind of work if the nicker is not right on then usually I will scribe with a gauge prior to the first cut. IIRC you have Japanese marking gauges? Set them to the line and scribe first with them before you start. That should help to reduce/eliminate crossgrain tear out. Scribe the thin edge as well and that should reduce blow out, but it's a hard thing to eliminate without some careful planning.

[Pat Barry]

Mike, just plane the raised panel without a rebate on that side.

I place the rebate on one side ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m1ca796c7.jpg

Add an angled subfence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_50ead493.jpg

Raise the panel on the other side. Then continue the taper until it fits the groove ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_m2c47d02a.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_3d5d8ae8.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel.html

Regards from Perth

Derek
The problem I see with this approach is that it doesn't account for seasonal changes very well. In the summer you will have a super snug fit with potential for cracking the groove out of the rails or stiles, and in the winter, the panel will be pretty loose.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yes Brian, I do have a Matsui Japanese marking gauge. I did not have it when I started this project though. I got frustrated trying to mark lines with Veritas wheel gauges and ordered the Masui. The wheels again were probably not as sharp as they might need to be and did not want to stay on a marked line. Certainly the knives on the Matsui are much easier to sharpen, mine seemed to arrive pretty sharp. I had the Matsui out yesterday. I could not figure out how to mark the slanted edges I had on my pannels, which are close to fitting now. I got out my Veritas Medium Shoulder plane this AM. It has been helpful for leveling the tops of rabbets and making final adjustments. The blade adjustments are very good at staying where they are put, which I was having trouble with.

I may be past the point of marking the edges on this project. I will spend the time to learn the Matsui so I can use it, sharpen the blades....for the next project. The other issue I had with my original knifed lines is they were hard to see. I tried pencilling the marks but the knife lines were not quite straight enough to mark usable lines. This project is turning out to be a good learning experience, which is what I was hoping it would be.