How do I make a stopped groove in a dovetail?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys.
I want to make a small tray, 10x13" and 2 1/2" high. Will join the sides with through dovetails. I want to use 1/4" thick material for the bottom. I want the bottom to ride in a groove on all 4 sides.

No sweat - got out my plow plane and cut a groove on the tail boards. The end of the groove wont show. But if I groove the pin boards all the way to the end, it WILL show. So I tried to cut a stopped groove with the plow - can't get a uniform depth because the skate is longer than the groove.

How do you cut grooves like this?

Thank you.
Fred

[brian zawatsky]

Chisel a mortise of the proper depth and width that is just a tad longer than the length of the skate that precedes the cutter. Only drawback is that the plow needs to be set twice, as the groove needs to be run from the center towards either end. There may be an easier way, but that’s how I’ve done it.

To clarify, you’d need to cut a mortise at either end of the stopped dado.

[Chet R Parks]

A router plane is one possibility. Use half blind dovetails. Put plugs in the groove. just a couple of ideas, I'm sure others will have more.

[Chet R Parks]

Another possibility is using a slip base like Derek C. has described here. Building the Drawers (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers.html) Basically your tray is a drawer with handholds. I know you said you wanted to use thru dovetails but if the groove is shorter than the plane, I think you have to do a work around??

[Edwin Santos]

Put plugs in the groove.

Fred,
This has been my practice, to make it a through groove and plug it. You'll be plugging end grain, and usually it's imperceptible with a little grain matching care.

Edwin

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi Fred

Chopping out the groove with a mortise chisel goes surprisingly fast. You can then clean up with a router plane. That's how I did mine in the recent coffee table build thread I posted. For longer grooves I sometimes do the beginning and the end, just enough to fit the skates of the plow plane and then some, and plow away the rest.

I wouldn't go with a plug. It will show, and you will forever notice it.

[Phil Mueller]

I plow what I can and finish with a router plane and chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

It can be done depending on your plow plane.

Here is an old post of mine using a Stanley #45:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?196104-Today-s-Epiphany-With-the-Stanley-45

The Stanley #55 has tilting fences to allow cutting a groove into a face of an octagon and other endeavors. It also has a screw that threads into the skate by the blade to inhibit lateral movement of the blade when it is used in a manner that needs to be adjusted between cuts.

If your bench can hold two pieces at a time the two pin boards can be cut together saving some time or make two grooves in one piece that can latter be cut apart for the pin boards.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you guys! Some of these ideas never occurred to me and I was uncertain of the others. Some of them are doggone clever! I'll try a couple of these and report back on what worked for me.

Jim, I'm intrigued by the idea of advancing the blade with each pass. That never occurred to me, but that will be something I try.

I appreciate your help!
Fred

[Phil Mueller]

I might also add that if you go the router plane route, I clamp a “stop” for the front of the router plane to keep me from accidentally blowing out the end. This example shows the “stop” when I was doing a dado to keep from tearing out the adjoining groove, but I do the same for any stopped groove or dado.

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[Frederick Skelly]

I might also add that if you go the router plane route, I clamp a “stop” for the front of the router plane to keep me from accidentally blowing out the end. This example shows the “stop” when I was doing a dado to keep from tearing out the adjoining groove, but I do the same for any stopped groove or dado.

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Good point Phil. Thanks for that idea!
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I tried a few of the ideas suggested above, and again thanks to everyone who responded! The approach I came up with is a close relative of what Jim Koepke was doing with his #45s. Because the LV small plow only has one depth stop, I couldn't use just that.

So what I did was make an auxillary fence to install on the other side (see pics) of the skate. The bottom of that fence is flush with the edge of the skate. I advance the blade every pass. When I clamp a stop to the bench, the plow will cut stopped grooves all day long with no muss or fuss. Minor cleanup with a chisel on both ends. [Edit: In case it's confusing, the second picture really is a top-down view - I just turned the depth stop upside down to get it out of the way.]

I think it is important NOT to bear down on the aux fence, because it is riding on the fence rails and you dont want to distort/damage those. So I put most of the pressure on the "real" fence and the tote. If anyone sees a flaw in doing it this way, please point it out so I don't trash this wonderful tool. Otherwise, I think I've got a good approach here. See what you think?

Best wishes,
Fred

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[Jim Koepke]

Great improvisation, kind of like a wooden cam stop.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Front view, placed on the wood so you can see the aux fence and how it works.
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[brian zawatsky]

Front view, placed on the wood so you can see the aux fence and how it works.
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That's awesome! Looks mush simpler than the way I last did it, and less chisel work. Thanks for sharing

[Jens Hoffmann]

You’d be shocked at how quickly you can do this with just a marking gauge and chisel. Score deep lines and just chisel our the waste.

[lowell holmes]

I would define the ends of the groove by drilling a hole at the ends and then cut the slot.

On second thought, I would just chop it. That's why I learned to chop slots and dovetails.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fred

I applaud your creativity in coming up with your solution. If it works for you, then it is good. You asked my opinion (PM) how I could improve the method. Well, this is me, and not you ... I would do the task differently.

The part that concerns me about your method is that "Because the LV small plow only has one depth stop, I couldn't use just that". " I advance the blade every pass". This reduces control of the result, and the is the risk that the depth of each groove is not the same. [EDIT: on reflection, that is not a significant issue in this case as long as they are similar in depth]

There are several ways to do this. The first is to not do it and, instead, to use a half-blind dovetail at each end. This will hide the groove.

Of course that is not what you want, since you choose through dovetails, so ...

Consider that a rebate is essentially the same cut as a groove. A stopped rebate is essentially a stopped groove. I have made stopped rebates with a plane ... keep in mind that the remaining end is weak until the pieces are glued together.

The joinery is quite simple, just requiring an extra step, which is to excavate a mortice for the skate to travel. If you do not do this, the plane will create a curved bottom, not a flat one.

The article is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward.html

These are a few pics to illustrate ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_m1aa9a2c4.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_fbcabc7.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_m639890da.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_4625b5dd.jpg

Here is a third method, this time using a router plane. Again it is illustrated with a rebate - however I have done the same with a plough plane. In both cases, the groove/rebate is completed with a router plane. Here you can see the curved groove if you do not first create a space for the skate ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ArmoireProject1_html_m2a20b2eb.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ArmoireProject1_html_64ce0579.jpg


A fourth method is simply to chisel and use the router plane. In the case of a tray, which is shorter than these examples, this is what I would do. The downside is that the router plane blade requires more control to stay inside the groove and not spelch the sides.

After all this, you find you prefer your extra depth stop/fence method, and I would not criticise this at all. As I said before, these are all just options. There are no "musts" if it works for you, just preferences.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you Derek! I appreciate you taking a look at this for me, and for the additional ideas.

Best regards,
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

I'm also partial to router planes for this sort of work, with a fence or batten to control position.

It may be worth noting here that the LV Hinge Mortise plan has long, flat, parallel sides that register nicely to a batten, and uses the same blades as their router plane. I've used that to cut stopped grooves/dados more than once. I also have the LV detail rabbet planes, which can be used to get reasonably close to the end of a stopped groove, though you have to alternate them with the router plane to maintain clearance for the detail rabbets' toes.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I've found this demonstration by Brian Holcombe to be helpful: https://youtu.be/9RGHpf6t8dc.

He scores the sides with a pull saw and then uses a router plane. You might have to start and stop each end with a small mortise.

[Derek Cohen]

Joe, be careful following that method. What Brian is doing there is excellent technique for the dado he is making, he is working across the grain. To try this with a groove which runs with the grain, especially with a thin Japanese saw, is to invite the blade to run with the grain - in spite of the fence he is using. I am not saying not to do it. I am just pointing out the risk. I would create the boundaries of the groove using a fenced cutting gauge. This will better keep the lines straight. And light, light strokes to start.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

an alternative to stopped grooves is to plug them. I forgot if one or both of them have shown a dovetail box plugged skillfully, though I always stop groove mine: Paul Sellers / Rob Cosman.

Simon

[Warren Mickley]

I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.

[Rob Luter]

I would define the ends of the groove by drilling a hole at the ends and then cut the slot.

On second thought, I would just chop it. That's why I learned to chop slots and dovetails.

I've done both, that is to say drilled a hole to establish a starting point, then chopped (pared) it square and true to the groove. It makes a convenient place for chips to go.

[Derek Cohen]

I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.

Having provided several options earlier, what Warren is stating here was something I had intended to mention. I agree with him - stopped rebates and stopped grooves are machine made. The methods we are offering up here are to replace machinery. I warned that this is a weak joint until glued up. Be careful if you proceed.

Alternatives include through dovetails with mitred ends. That will hide a groove. Another is to use slips all round with mitred ends. I would build the slips flush with the top of the tray bottom.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I have never seen a stopped groove like you are imagining in traditional work. For myself I have only made stopped grooves when repairing 20th century machine work. The traditional way for making a tray is to dovetail the sides and nail on the bottom. The bottom can be slightly larger than the tray or flush with the sides or the joint can be covered with a small moulding.

Here are some alternatives: you can dovetail the sides, but have a miter for the bottom 1/2 inch or so (depending on scale of piece). That way you can make a groove at the bottom in the mitered portion which is hidden. You might want to practice this joint as some people have trouble have trouble visualizing the transition between the mitered and dovetailed portion.

You could groove only on to opposite sides and have the bottom just butt up at the ends.

You could do as Simon suggests and plug the holes afterwards; this is a traditional method and hardly noticeable.

You could make a half hidden dovetail like a drawer joint to cover up the groove.

Thank you Warren. I always appreciate your traditional perspective. I did not know that stopped grooves are a machine age method. I mistakenly thought that I was cutting corners if I didn't do something more elegant, like a stopped groove.

Best regards,
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I would build the slips flush with the top of the tray bottom.

Thank you Derek. I'm thinking of doing exactly that now.

As always, I appreciate your advice,
Fred

[Phil Mueller]

Derek and Fred, I’m trying to visualize the “slip” solution. Could someone explain what you mean by a “slip?”
Thanks!

[Derek Cohen]

Derek and Fred, I’m trying to visualize the “slip” solution. Could someone explain what you mean by a “slip?”
Thanks!

Slips are supports for drawer bottoms. They are used when the drawer side is too narrow to be grooved.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_54592df5.jpg

The drawer bottom slides into the groove.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_made5844.jpg

Below, the edge of the slip is beaded. The top is flush with the drawer bottom ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_c758cb1.jpg

Slips are strong since they are glued long grain to long grain.

What would be useful for Fred's tray is the slip I used on my first journey in this direction. Here I used slips on the drawer back instead of a groove ...

https://s19.postimg.org/woqm6ummb/Drawer3.jpg

The construction should be self-explanatory ...

https://s19.postimg.org/5qwp53etv/Lastlap-glueingslip3.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/ytaz7xgj7/Lastlap-glueingslip1.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/lp5ev8grn/Lastlap-glueingslip2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Got it. Thank you Derek...excellent explanation and execution as usual. A really attractive solution, especially the bead detail.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek - sorry to be dumb, but I'm trying to understand one bit..... How are you getting the top of the drawer bottom to be flush with the top of the beaded slip? (I love that beaded detail, BTW - it's a classy touch!)

I thought of 2 ways to do that.
1. Use a 1/2" thick bottom and cut a 1/4" rebate that fits in the slip.
2. Use a 1/4" thick drawer bottom and glue a 1/4" strip to its underside.
I'll bet there are others - what approach did you use?

Thank you,
Fred

[Chet R Parks]

Derek,
I understand that the slips can be used when the sides are to thin to support a groove for the drawer bottom. In the first picture the end of the slip has a little tongue that I assume fits into the groove in the drawer front which is obviously thick enough to have a groove. In the last 3 pictures the slips are mitered and what I would like to ask is how do/did you attach the slips to the sides of the drawer? Are they just held in place with glue or are there small nails/screws to retain there position over time. I'm not challenging just trying to understand the attachment of the slips. Thanks
Chet

[Derek Cohen]

Basic slip making ... just plough a groove:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m17e7271a.jpg

Saw off the chosen projection, and bead a side (you could bead first, then saw it away) ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_2650c24a.jpg

Rebate the drawer/tray bottom (having sized it to fit the sides+rebates-expansion) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m2d560127.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m2fc7009e.jpg

Glue the slips to the drawer sides - as mentioned earlier, this is a strong joint (long grain to long grain). Chris, the little tenons are simply to position the slip in line with the groove behind the drawer front. In the tray they would not be needed.

Finished drawer, with slips flush with drawer bottom ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m491d5e4a.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

Got it! Thanks Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Derek!