I've got turners' block

[Bill Jobe]

Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated.
This bowl got its first coat of PTO today...cut pretty thin.
I made a few quick changes on the bottom side just prior to the tung oil. The inside requires further sanding.
I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
Looking for brutally honest crique.

[Richard Casey]

Bill, it looks OK to me. If you are wanting inspiration, go to Google Images, type in woodturned bowls, woodturned platters or woodturned hollow vessels. I find all the ones I like and print them out in A4. When I get a nice blank, I dig through my folder, find a shape to suit the blank, pin it up behind the lathe and try to match it.
Rgds,
Richard.

[daryl moses]

Bill, I like the overall shape of your bowl. It is a Calabash "style" bowl. Calabash bowls can take different shapes and yours is one of them.
I do think it looks a little thick especially around the rim. The thickness is not proportional to the size of it. Also it could use a little more shine to it IMO.
Don't get frustrated, everything i've ever turned I can find fault, there is always room for improvement. That's what makes turning challenging.
BTW, I never take the tennon or remove the recess on the bottom until I am satisfied with the overall shape and finish. That way it can be easily returned to the lathe and make any more changes etc.

[Prashun Patel]

Brutal honesty:

Turn a little thinner. I personally prefer thicker bowls, but my eye wants that rim a little thinner.
I prefer a sharper edge on the rim. It creates a better, defined shadow line.
Try more lift at the base. It will make the bowl less squat (not that I would call this too squat).
Personally, I prefer feet on my bowls. I think a foot lifts and presents the bowl nicely. Contrary to popular belief I don't find that even a small foot interferes with the bowl's stability in use.
These things will make your form a little more delicate and refined.

Sand to a higher grit.

Get Richard Raffan's: The Art of Turned Bowls. Keep it on your coffee table. It's a fantastic source of inspiration still, and I've had mine for a couple years now. This book opened my eyes to foot and rim details.

I empathize with your 'block' syndrome. I too tend to turn the same form over and over...

[John K Jordan]

Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated.
This bowl got its first coat of PTO today...cut pretty thin.
I made a few quick changes on the bottom side just prior to the tung oil. The inside requires further sanding.
I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
Looking for brutally honest crique.

Progress? Set some of your earlier things next to the later things for comparison.

Also, it is difficult to evaluate by photo - do you have a local mentor who can hold pieces and look at them closely? I can see some things in these photos but I hesitate to comment much without seeing with my eyes and feeling with my fingers.

Remember that design is different than craftsmanship. If you are talking about things that can be done better such as controlling scratches, tearout, and unintended blurring of detail (such as crisp edges) all that can be easily addressed. If you are concerned about design, I'd suggest not worrying about it. Things like outside shape, rim detail, wall, rim, and bottom thickness, foot and more are all subjective things and I take all such suggestions with "a grain of salt". Everyone has their own opinion, no one is "right" and it's impossible to please everyone. If we try, creativity is stifled, things start looking similar and life is boring. For design inspiration I suggest going to club meetings, galleries, symposiums, and even craft shows and look at lots of things and decide what you like. If you find something you like, copy it. (If you have trouble copying it that's a different issue.) There are zillions of images on the internet - look at the gallery pages of respected woodturners. Books are a great inspiration - I keep a shelf full and occasionally look through them. For example, last week a student started on her first lidded box. We pulled out a few books and looked at some designs - she disliked some and very much liked others. What she liked was not necessarily what I liked!

If you see things you like in others' work maybe take or save photos to study to try to understand just what it is you like.

You mentioned about needing some additional sanding and applying some oil. My experience is sanding is a lot easier before any oil is applied, with the exception of wet sanding with oil (which I do only after the surface is perfect.) To make defects more visible on bare wood I like to wipe the surface with naptha and use a bright, glancing light to see what I need to fix. The naptha dries very quickly. Also, I do very little sanding on bowls - after my best finish cuts I find using scrapers by hand will remove scratches and tool marks far quicker than sandpaper, preserve crisp detail, and let me start with far finer grits.

JKJ

[Tony De Masi]

Well I would start with what you are calling "the same dumb mistakes". As you look at this piece what are you seeing as a repeat mistake? There is nothing wrong with the shape as long as this is the shape that you intended. If it's not and you are labeling the shape as a mistake, then you are having an issue with form. There are many shapes that are pleasing to look at and they all have formula's associated with them to give that pleasing shape.

[Bruce Schoenleber]

Check out galleries featuring ceramic art, or your local library. While woodturners have been poking at spinning wood with pointy objects for hundreds of years, potters have been thrusting their hands into spinning clay for thousands. I doubt that there is a circular form possible which has not been expressed in clay.

I tried a potters wheel once decades ago. Lets just say I was not very successful. Much like watching a master turner, thinking, "that looks easy enough, I can do that", Sure I can :eek:.

[Prashun Patel]

Guys, with due respect, Bill is asking for feedback on this form. I think he can learn a lot (as can I) from your personal opinions. Give it to him. He can obviously take it.

[John Keeton]

If you are concerned about design, I'd suggest not worrying about it. Things like outside shape, rim detail, wall, rim, and bottom thickness, foot and more are all subjective things and I take all such suggestions with "a grain of salt". Everyone has their own opinion, no one is "right" and it's impossible to please everyone. If we try, creativity is stifled, things start looking similar and life is boring.


There is nothing wrong with the shape as long as this is the shape that you intended.
Well, someone may as well stir up the hornet's nest and it may as well be me! While I agree with most all of what JKJ and Tony post, I do not agree with these two statements. Two dimensional work - paintings and the like, provide a much greater latitude for "creativity." The art world has proven that folks will buy canvases with paint spattered on them, painted by elephants, monkeys, and apparently combinations not yet thought of. However, with three dimensional work I have found there are three main things that attract folks - good form, color and figured wood. But...it is my belief that form trumps everything. One doesn't need to look very far to find examples of beautiful wood that have been crudely formed into forms that are wholly unattractive. Good form (and, yes, there is such a thing) is immediately pleasing to folks even though they may not know why or even be able to express it. Creation has a certain order to it. For some, including me, it is the result of divine creation by a perfect being - the Almighty God. Others attribute it to happenstance. But, neither group can deny the concept.

The catenary curve, the parabolic curve, the ellipse - all have either a mathematical basis or, in the instance of the catenary curve, are the result of natural forces - gravity in that situation. Fibonacci discovered the existence of the golden sequence - often referred to in discussions about the Fibonacci spiral, the golden mean, etc. While the "discovery" is attributed to him, the source and existence cannot be so attributed. Over the centuries, his principles have been followed in architecture, furniture design, and a myriad of other applications. I would encourage anyone desiring to have a sense of good form to study his concepts.

All this to say that there are "wrong shapes" even if it is what you intended. And, there are some folks that are right - just look at the classic pottery and vase forms from centuries ago. Not coincidentally, they occurred in various parts of the world that had not yet had commercial intercourse. It was because those forms were pleasing to the human eye.

So....I think Bill's form approaches that of a calabash, but could benefit from some of the points already made - thinner wall, a bit of foot or base, and it could also benefit from a smaller base/foot - somewhere close to a third the diameter of the bowl. That and a slight foot will provide some lift to the piece and draw the eye upward, relieving the squatted appearance. The curve at the top where it meets the rim appears to roll in, disrupting the overall curvature, which is actually pretty good.

I do agree with Prashun's suggestion on Raffan's book - the bible when it comes to learning about bowl forms.

OK - now would be the time to take me to task for my comments. But, don't expect me to change my mind!!:D

[Thomas Heck]

Looks nice to me. You give that to someone as a gift who isn't a wood turner and they'd love it without looking for flaws. Wood turners can be judge mental comparing works to their own. But no artist paints or creates the same. That's what makes every work unique to the artist.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bill, please let us know the size of the bowl. Photos can be deceptive when it comes to actual sizes. Easier to critique a form when I know dimensions.

You say you keep making the same mistakes. What mistakes? If it is tool control, creating a certain form, sanding, we can help.

[John K Jordan]

Guys, with due respect, Bill is asking for feedback on this form. I think he can learn a lot (as can I) from your personal opinions. Give it to him. He can obviously take it.

I interpreted "I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece." as having two possible meanings, mistakes in design or mistakes in execution.

As for form, what I can tell from the pictures is the outside shape looks nice. Easier to tell with the fingers. I personally usually prefer such pieces thinner at the rim but not necessarily the same thickness all the way down - a slightly heavier base can make a piece feel better balanced in the hand, another important aspect of design and impossible to tell from photos. One idea for that: In his books Richard Raffan recommends feeling a piece then cutting it in half to learn what it is that makes it feel that way.

I personally don't like the rounded over edge of the rim, but again, that is my opinion and others have there own. It's an entirely different issue if the rim was intended to be crisp and it was rounded during sanding.

Bill stated "I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine." Part of that might be design and part of it might be a total impression that includes shape and craftsmanship. For example, when I see sanding scratches and tearout on a bottom in a piece it gives me an overall impression that is difficult to separate from the shape, proportions, and form.

Bill, perhaps expand on what you are seeing and feeling. If you are primarily in evaluating the form there is an excellent suggestion repeated by several accomplished wood artists. A good friend brought this up recently in a conversation about developing form:

I am going to do a turning exercise that a friend leaned from a Paul Fennell class. Keep it to small forms and it is OK to use pallet wood if available. Turn a small form for style and pleasing to the eye. Turn one each day and paint them white. On the weekend throw out the ones you do not like. Next week turn a few more, paint them white and continue to throw out the ones you don't like. Eventually a good form will become 2nd nature to you. The reason for painting them either white or black is to take out any visual from some nice grain pattern.

You can spray them with white, grey, or black but black hides the form more. I also recommend turning them from cheap, soft local wood. I like to use cedar here for experimenting with shape because it's so easy to cut and I have a bunch. You can ignore any tearout, scratches, and tool marks.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Hmm, looks good to me. Perhaps it needs a 'sold' sign on it....

robo hippy

[Matt Schrum]

I didn't have a lot of time and wasn't able to find your past pictures in a quick search-- but what always works for me is totally changing things up. Get some funky looking wood and try a natural edge bowl, try a bowl with only a small section of natural edge, glue a few boards together and try a two or three tone bowl, give a vase form a shot. Try turning green and let it warp, get a 15" diameter, 3" thick piece and turn a platter or plate. You get the idea.

I've generated some of the prettiest firewood that wasn't worth even taking a picture of, but I've also cranked out some cool looking shallow dishes, oddball shaped bowls, and the occasional "showroom" type piece. Maybe not doing the same form over and over keeps me from really honing my skills in a certain area, but rarely doing the same type of thing twice in a row keeps it interesting.

[Brian Brown]

Bill,

I read and re-read John Keeton's comments, and agree completely. If Raffan's book is the Bible on form, JK is the preacher at the pulpit when it comes to form and putting it all together. I have always liked his critiques of my work, and have learned a lot from him. You have also received other excellent comments from others here.

I have a bit of the same problem you do with feeling like I make the same mistakes over and over again. When I put my old work against my new work, I can see that I do make some of those mistakes again, but I am making progress. Progress or not, it seems that glaciers move faster than my progress. As to a brutal critique, I have already agreed with what others have said about form, (form is the hardest technique for me by far), and there appears to be some minor sanding marks left behind.

Now one other critique. Not on the bowl, but on your feelings of frustration. I don't know how long you have been turning. You have been a member here just under 2 years, so I will make the assumption that you have been turning a little over 2 years (sorry for the assumption). We live in a world of instant gratification. Everything we see, hear, or experience creates a feeling that we should get what we want immediately, thanks to the marketing industry. I teach 2 Dimensional art at a local university. It amazes me how many students feel that what they do has to be perfect on the first try, or second or third. Some quit if they don't get what they want on the first try. Of course there is always some prodigy who will destroy the learning curve right out of the chute; completely annoying the rest of us, but for the other 99+% percent of us, it takes time and practice to get it right, and there is no such thing as perfection. There is always something an artist feels that he/she can improve on. If you ever find yourself feeling like there is nothing more you can improve on, it is time to move on to another pursuit. So, that was a lot of words to say give yourself a break. If you are making the same mistake over, work on just that problem. Get cheap or free wood, and work it over and over. You don,t even have to sand or finish if you are just working on form. Then line up your practice pieces in chronological order so you can see your progress. When you are feeling better about what you are getting, move to the next technique, and warm yourself by the fire as your burn the earlier practice pieces, feeling confident and empowered by what you have conquered.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

If its form you wish to work on, get Raffan’s book - The Art of the Bowl, and look through it often. If its technique you need to work on, get a plain log - poplar or whatever is available cut it into as many blanks as you can - large and small - and turn them all into shavings. Green wood works best for me, I don’t even worry about whats going happen as it dries. Only save the ones that you feel you hit the mark with. Consciously try forms that are new for you. You may find that without the expectation to take anything away except experience that form advances. Plan to throw them all in the burn pile when you’re done. Cut some in half to see how you’re progressing.
The other thing you’ll find is that technique gets better and better when you work on it with no other expectation than to achieve a better cut. It is freeing to not have any other goal than to walk away from the lathe with a skill you didn’t have before.
Spend a weekend just making shavings and turning as many of the blanks as you can. its amazing where it will lead. You also get a lot of experience cleaning up. Roughing is a great opportunity to work on technique - controlling the bevel, cutting clean, flowing curves, conquering tear-out. Its also a way to work on sharpening skills and play with different grinds.
When I get new logs, I always core the blanks into three (usually) pieces. the smaller ones often become sacrificial pieces that are meant only to tune up technique before attacking one I’ve been waiting to turn into a keeper. I don’t turn everyday, so a little warn up helps a lot when I want to attack that amazingly figured hunk of wood I’ve saved for just the right day...
There’s three ways ways to build skills and form...practice, practice, practice.

[Tim Passmore]

Bill,
For what it's worth, I feel your pain. I've been turning for about 4 years and spent much of that time working on tool control and proper technique. Only recently have I begun to focus more on form and shape in an effort to create more visually pleasing pieces. If Richard Raffan's book is the Bible, and John Keeton is in the pulpit, I've certainly become a convert. Below is a walnut bowl from 4 years ago and an ash bowl which was recently completed. I still have miles to go, however I think it's evident which piece is the most "pleasing" and it has nothing to do with the wood or my turning skills. Best of luck in your journey!

[John K Jordan]

I also like Raffan's bowl book and a few others. Another one I really like is Woodturning Design, by Mike Darlow.
https://www.amazon.com/Woodturning-Design-Mike-Darlows-Number/dp/1565231961

Woodturning Design has 264 pages (and over 540 illustrations) on the process and understanding of design principles as related to aesthetics and function. Unlike many, Darlow includes references!! In my opinion the book is well worth reading, as are three of his other books, Fundamentals of Woodturning, Woodturning Techniques, and Woodturning Methods.

This is a wonderful book for a thinking person, stretching the mind in ways not imagined. Darlow threads the book with historical examples in stone, pottery, and wood next to photos of "modern" pieces. He never says "make it this way" but shows multiple ways, sometimes numerous variations in form next to each other with comments on subtle differences. Wonderful for training the eye! Perhaps it may not be as appealing to the youtube crowd but this book might well be the basis for a college course in an art school.

Just one example: in a discussion on page 47 about the "entrenched belief" of the relationship of beauty to proportion, Darlow describes six common reasons for this belief: mathematics (Fibonacci, etc), the existence of ideal proportions, proportions found in nature, pleasure triggered by experiencing certain proportions, the influence of "tastemakers", and proved by scientific experiment. This is immediately followed by a discussion of factors which effectively argue against taking these beliefs as axioms.

Consider his discussion of the Golden Rectangle, specifically concerning something no one talks about: exactly where on the piece do you measure the proportions? In fact, he demonstrates with a simple illustration that "for most objects there is no logical placement for a proportion-defining rectangle, and that such a rectangle is an artificial, arbitrary, and largely meaningless construct." Without the illustration this may seem harsh to those taught otherwise by those they respect.

Darlow's point about the "tastemakers" is also something I've heard for years, "the belief that some people have superior design appreciation (taste) and those with inferior taste would design more beautiful objects if they were to follow the recommendations of such tastemakers"

To me, form as discussed here is art. The first definition of "artist" is one who produces art. I've lived and worked around artists and teachers all my life, in drawing, architecture, sculpture, music, photography, video, and the rest and I've heard many recognized and self-appointed expert opinions about what is better and what is "right". Most of this now seems a bit narrow minded to me. My un-vocalized response is usually "That's what you think." Some of the most memorable and moving art I've experienced has been by those breaking the established "rules". Some of the ugliest things I've seen and heard have been from renown experts (the emperor's new clothes). Some notable examples have been from teachers. I've had designs of several of my own pieces soundly criticized by those "in the know" only to see very similar pieces acclaimed years later when done by a well known turner. (Ha, maybe they saw my pieces and were inspired!)

I seldom critique for form/art unless asked and when handed a piece I can touch and turn in the light. If solicited I freely give my opinions, especially on technique things that look bad to me but can be improved, like tearout, circular scratches, ripples, and humps. Especially glaring are unintentional inflection points in curves and sloppy finishes. With students I am gentle or brutal depending on their level and ability.

I should mention I don't create to sell. If someone else likes what I create and like, fine. If not, that's fine too! Those turning to please buyers, art critics, or the woodturning community may have other perspectives.

JKJ

[Robert Edington]

I think your bowl looks great! Sometimes you just have to go with what the wood will bring. You cut away bad places and then you make a shape with whats left. Write someones name on the bottom of it and give it to them. They'll be thrilled.
One critique: Your grooves on the bottom aren't cut, they look scraped. That's okay. But their finish doesn't match the "field" wood. Go to Lowes or HD and get a formica chip sample. Next time, scrape your grooves and then rub the formica in the groove. It'll burn the wood black and make it look purposeful.
RP

[Harold Balzonia]

When feeling this kind of frustration is when I'm very glad to have been a decent athlete a long time ago in a previous life. Athletes practice. They practice a lot. They do drills. They repeat drills. And they practice some more. 99% of an athlete's life is spent practicing, not competing. I mentally approach woodworking much the same way.... I work through a process on every piece and I view almost everything as "practice." I've turned a LOT of wood from big hunks to nothing but shavings.

i think musicians might have a similar mindset.... tons of practice working on scales etc, and THEN a "performance."

as to your specific bowl in the photo, I might like it a little more if it was a bit thinner. And I think that piece of wood isn't a great color, to my eye. I might suggest some sort of embellishment, like a burn line, or perhaps a bead or cove at the rim just to add some visual interest. Maybe a dyed or painted line? Maybe an inlay? Just something to make it "jazzy." But take my opinions with a huge grain of salt.... I'm not exactly conventional....

just keep turning!

[Bill Jobe]

New day....same bowl. More sanding to do....tomorrow.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Hmmm. I turned some bowls for spending money in high school and college. It was before all the books, before any one pointed out foot, no foot, edged rim, and style of bowl. Being away from turning for 40 years and coming back in the age of youtube, hundreds of turning books with color pictures, new and improved finishes, etc. has been sort of like waking from a coma. Advanced turners take what was once considered flawed pieces of wood and turn out artsy pieces with knows and voids. Pieces of wood my father would have insisted were only firewood. I still take a piece of wood and try to envision the highest and best use. How big and how deep can I go with this one. What shape is just itching to get out? straight sides, convex sides, concave side, perhaps an s curve, My tastes have always dictated that the base should be approx 1/3 of the total diameter or larger for a shallow bowl. My aunt and uncle collected colonial treenware. Original trenchers and burl bowls were scarce because few survived, they had several of each. I modeled what i made after the only examples I had ever seen. Most modern bowls still follow historical proportions to some extent.

[daryl moses]

I hate to say it but I liked the original better. But it's your bowl and i'm sure someone will be delighted to have it.

[roger wiegand]

I'm not enough of an "artist" to critique anyone else's work, but I have found it helpful to look outside the world of woodturning to the potters, they've been thinking about making pleasing shapes for many millennia longer than the turners, but using fundamentally the same method. At the beginning, particularly to the work of ancient Greek and Roman potters. Read about what they did and why it is thought to "work" for the human eye. Learn about golden rectangles and other "pleasing" ratios and then apply them. I've always thought it is a good idea to learn the rules and conventions of traditional design so that you can then break them thoughtfully and with intention-- and probably not too many at once.

Somewhere I have a book with the silhouettes of several thousand pieces of ancient pottery and a discussion of the design rules embedded in them. I found that quite useful as a source of ideas and for getting a good idea of what pleasing curves look like. Making them come out pleasing from a block of wood is a whole 'nother matter!

[Prashun Patel]

Guys, I'll say this again. With due respect, the OP asked:

"I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine.
Looking for brutally honest critique."

He's not looking for "if it looks good to you it's good." The Turners' Forum is generally warm and supportive, but if a person is asking for constructive criticism, isn't the most generous thing some of you experts can do is give him honest opinions? I am uncertain why so many are not willing to go out on a limb.

[Jim Barkelew]

I think the bowl looks "fat", NOT a criticism of the shape, so to make it lighter and more tactile put it back on the lathe and turn off the base to a smooth curve. This makes the bowl scream to be held in both hands. Fill it with spare change and the thickness will be perfect.



Turn two more bowls the same size. One with the biggest diameter higher up, one with the biggest diamater lower. Which one looks "best" and go from there. One of my favorite bowls is a simple one like yours with the fat part a little lower.

[John Keeton]

Bill, the "remake" is not at all pleasing to my eye for a number of reasons. However, I am not sure a critique of this revision is what you want or even need.

To begin with, I am not sure what your goal is, so it might be best to establish that. If it is simply turning for the pleasure of the activity, and a lot of folks do find that therapeutic, then just enjoy the ride and worry not what others think. But, your original post stated - "Guys, gals, am I making any progress? I seem to continue making the same dumb mistakes on every piece. I'm frustrated....I look at my bowls, then look at bowls others post and wonder what is missing in mine." So, as JKJ and Steve seemed to allude to - is it technique, sanding, finishing that is frustrating for you? Or, is it design/form?


If it is design/form, then instead of attempting various iterations, I would, again, suggest you do some serious study of classic forms, design principles, and the work of well known and respected artists - both in wood, but more so in pottery. Unless you have an inherent eye for good design, there is only one way to obtain it and that is study and then, and only then, practice. Simply turning one effort after another with no direction is not going to improve your work.

And, so we are clear, I am not in the camp of "if it looks good to you, then it is good." That approach will guarantee mediocrity. I have never done a piece that I couldn't find something that was not pleasing to me. My best piece will always be my next one, and between now and then, I will contemplate why the last one did not please me and determine how to correct that before doing the next one.

[William C Rogers]

Bill, I started out ten years ago doing kit/craft turnings. in the last two years I started doing bowls, hollow form, etc., not kit items. When I first started I learned by doing and acquired bad habits along the way. I joined a turning club two years ago and became a member of this forum. I have learned a lot from these sources. I am still learning and have a way to go. However I just started reading Richard Raffan book "The Art of Turning Bowls" and have learned things in the first few pages. I know I will learn more and better understand shapes of bowls. I really want to improve my understanding of bowl shapes. But I like to try different things. I decided to try piercing as as an embellishment. Lidded boxes is another outlet and learning to make finials. I go back and forth between items allowing me time to contemplate what shape/style I will do next. I don't just turn bowls, I rotate between things. Here are some examples.

381451 381452381453

[Steve Schlumpf]

I agree 100% with John, I am not sure what your goal is. The first bowl form had promise and could have been reworked to enhance the form and finish. The second turning of that same form showed me 2 things; first, the original form was way too thick, and second, the final form does not work (in my opinion) because it does not have a smooth and flowing external curve.

I also agree with John's suggestion that if you are serious about turning a pleasing bowl, then study classic forms, design principles and respected artists to understand what makes a good form. Once you have determined that, then practice on that one form until you don't even have to think about it to turn it, it just comes naturally. This whole design stuff doesn't come quickly but with time and practice, it does happen.

[Bill Jobe]

I tried to keep the rule of 3rds when I chose the broadest point on both versions but other than that I really thought my first shape would look better to me than it did, so last night I punted.
I am struggling to come up with something to send to my older brother who I have not seen in over 25 years. That bowl just wouldn't do. So, here you have the results of an argument with the wife yesterday over a personal matter as well as several other personal problems piling up faster than I can deal with. Perhaps you have been there.
This version reminds me of what i once read about the composer Tchaikovsky.
At some point in his career his contemporaries began giving him grief about having never composed a violin concerto. So he went to work and came up with a concerto 40 some minutes long. One of them referred to it as "music that stinks to the ear". I like his violin concerto.
This thing, though, was an idea that came to me last night. There was plenty of wall thickness to do just about anything. And so......
Take another look at Prashun's post. My biggest frustration is form. I look at pics posted by seasoned turners and for the life of me cannot come anywhere close to their bowls. I'm not even sure it's the form. There's just a look about them that I can't even put my finger on.
I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised. I used to keep koi and it takes looking at hundreds...thousands of koi before you begin to develop an eye for a high quality fish. There are no shortcuts. I've had others just getting into koikeeping ask me to look at their koi and tell them if they are "grand champions". It's very hard to tell them the truth when I'm looking down at koi from a pet store that would never have made it past the very first cull by the Japanese breeders.
I lost my best koi when she jumped through the net I had placed over the pond after first getting her. In just 2 or 3 months of growing season, having spent the winter without food she had perhaps doubled her girth and weight. At 24" and just 2 years old she was going to be big and have nearly perfect body conformation. Netting is vital when you have a new fish in an unfamiliar environment. I found her nearly dried up with many scales gone. I immediately threw her back in and in less than 5 minutes she was back eating like a pig.
That was one very special koi. I'm not even going to tell you what i paid for her. You'd think i was nuts if you knew. I'll just say it was far more than i could realistically afford. At that time I had developed a fairly good eye for particularly body conformation and she had it big time. I'd wake up in the morning and the first thing I'd do is run out to the pond to check on her (and feed her. She had an enormous appetite). I was excited yet knew in my heart I was not up to providing the level of care she required.
She developed a fungus where the scales where missing so I netted her and hurried to treat the fungus and get her back in the pond. I looked away from the tub I had placed her in for just a moment and when I looked back at her she was gone. I spent over 2 hours moving her back and forth in the pond water, crying the whole time trying to revive her, but she was gone.
In the end I had an eye for quality that my bank account could not come close to meeting, so I got out.
I see now, at least in my case, there are no shortcuts in turning bowls either.
I want to thank each and every one of you who took the time to respond to this thread.
I think I've answered the questions I sought from you.

[Prashun Patel]

This reminds me of the "10,000 hour rule".

Feedback and reflection are the way to get better.

Reading between your lines (with due respect), it feels like you need a language for the elements. It's overwhelming to think about it in terms of "there's just a look about them that I can't put my finger on".

You have to break it down into elements: the lift, the thickness, the rim, the foot, the finish.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is why I found Raffan's book so useful. He gives you that language (not that I am remotely fluent yet;) ). He also shows different sketches, Goldiocks style, with "not enough", "too much", "just right" variations. He also gives a bunch of templates that you can trace and print and use for your own forms. Perhaps most useful to me was his discussions on how curves take off and resolve. This is gradually getting me away from thinking "I'm going to make a calabash" to a more organic: "This amount of return on the lip feels good, given how I've chosen to take off from the base."

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Bill, maybe you should stick to copying the bowls that you like, and made by others, rather than trying to make your own designs, there is such a thing as talent, and not everyone has it.

I’ve brought this up before, though it isn’t liked by many, you can teach someone to paint, like a house or things like that, but it takes something else to be a Rembrandt, Van Gogh, or Van Steen or any of these artist.

This does also apply to throwing pots and bowls from clay, same applies for wood, where the soft clay can be reshaped, wood isn’t as forgiving, but yes you have to have an eye or feeling for doing this wood turning to get the pleasing shapes, other than that, copy what you see, you might improve over time, just all IMO :).

[Bill Splaine]

Leo, your point is well taken. In my woodcarving, I almost always copy what someone else has done.. something that catches my eye. After making that object about 5 times, I begin to see something change in the design.. not necessarily on purpose.. it just happens. A few more times and that woodcarving is my own. It still looks like a "dog" but, it's a different "dog". As my mind sees it. I don't have enough experience with turning yet.. but, I'm guessing that my evolution will be very similar.

I haven't seen a reply by the OP.. so, I don't fully understand what his request is.. despite many offering best guesses at what he is asking for.

[Bill Jobe]

OP here. Day 3....same bowl.

[Bill Jobe]

I haven't seen a reply by the OP.. so, I don't fully understand what his request is.. despite many offering best guesses at what he is asking for.

OP does not know what questions to ask. And all of you have tried very hard to help. I appreciate each and every post. Thank you all.

[John Keeton]

Bill, can you post a straight on side view that shows the profile - preferably against a light background so the bowl has contrast against it.

[Bill Jobe]

This is the best I can do for right now. I took several shots and when I tried to crop them my editing program would not download them from my smartphone.
I need to get out my SLR.

[Bill Jobe]

I was able to coax 1 more through the edit program.

[Bill Jobe]

And another. Sorry, but my phone is not the ideal camera for this.

[John Keeton]

IMO, it is a significant improvement over version 2. If it were mine and I could still chuck it, I would remove the top at the point where the lower curve terminates - before it begins the outward flare. That would get the diameter and height in better proportion and result in a fairly nice form. A fitting gift for your brother!! If you can’t chuck it, it still is a presentable gift.

Now that this one is behind you, spend some time in research and study.

[Bill Jobe]

I can still chuck it. That base is my mortise. Very weak since I removed some stock outside of it, but if I'm careful I think I can cut where you suggested. Won't be tonight, though.

[Bill Jobe]

You can clearly see that I'm very low on the learning curve and a friend who has helped me get access to most of the wood I have is breathing down my neck for an urn for him.
That's pressure at this point in the game.
At first I thought, oh, I'll be able to fashion something together for him. People will see it 2 or 3 days, then it's, no, wait. They don't bury urns !!!
He's been waiting for 3 years. I hope his ticker holds up for another 10 or 12 years.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bill, where you located? There has to be someone near you that can help out and give you some one-on-one time with bowl turning basics.

[Bill Jobe]

About here, John? Can't go very much higher. There's not enough thickness left.

Yes, Steve. There's a turners' club less than 30 minutes from me but I've yet to get involved.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Bill,

I think you will find that attending/joining a local turning club is well worth the effort. Turning becomes a whole lot more enjoyable when you can have someone demo creating different forms, using different tools and cutting techniques and also be able to see first hand what others are turning.

[John Keeton]

Bill, hard to tell as you cropped off the outside profile of the form, but I think that will work. I would be more concerned about not taking enough off than too much. I think removing evidence of the flare is what will make a difference.

[Bill Jobe]

Day 4...same bowl.

[Bill Jobe]

By the way, what do you think of my paper plate fill/back lighting? They'll come with every one of next year's crop of smartphones.

[John Keeton]

Looks pretty good IMO, Bill! Not sure Samsung and Apple will go for the backdrop, but one never knows.;)

[daryl moses]

Bill................you nailed it!!! Still a calabash style bowl [IMO] which I like very much.
Could still use another coat or two of finish but the shape is very pleasing to my eye.