PDA

View Full Version : Business questions regarding Workmans Comp and Hiring



dirk martin
03-13-2018, 8:30 PM
My business is expanding to the point that I need to hire.
I'm in Wisconsin, and in a heavy Amish/Mennonite community.
I've got some questions regarding Workmans Comp, in regards to hiring family as well as hiring Amish workers.
I've also got questions regarding LLC "partners" being exempt from WC.....so, as you can see, I have some complex topics I need addressed.

Where should I go to get these questions answered?
Do I go to an accountant, or a lawyer?
I have one of each, and I email'd both.
The accountant never replied, and the lawyer barely answered one of the 5 questions I threw at him.

Lee Schierer
03-13-2018, 8:51 PM
I would suggest you contact the Wisconsin Department of Work Force Development. You may be able to get answers from their website (https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/wc/employers/).

Jim Becker
03-13-2018, 8:55 PM
WC regulations are state specific...so the first point of reference is your state's Employment resources that you should be able to find online. Your accountant should also be able to help you. If he/she isn't responding to you...you need a new one who values you as a client. Your attorney may or may not be knowledgable on this, depending on what they really focus on in their practice.

I'm dealing with this 'as we speak' in PA, but fortunately, I'll have no employees and as an officer/shareholder, I can exempt from WC for my self and for Professor Dr. SWMBO. (who is the majority shareholder) Now this is for an S-Corp and is under PA WC regulations. I didn't look into LLC to see if it is different relative to exemptions. In PA, there is no exemption for family members relative to WC...if they are not an officer of the corporation (the only possible exemption), they are required to be covered just like any other worker that might be hired.

Bruce Wrenn
03-13-2018, 9:08 PM
A good INDEPENDENT insurance agent could most likely answer your WC questions.

John C Cox
03-13-2018, 9:12 PM
Remember that Workman's Compensation laws and insurance is a way to not only protect the employee - but it protects the business as well..

If you just hire somebody as a person and they get hurt on your watch - you can be personally liable for everything any jury can dream up forever.. Workman's comp laws put caps on this stuff... It's much more difficult for people to go after frivolous lawsuits within the workman's comp system..

And with workman's comp insurance comes workman's comp lawyers working for you.....

and don't think for one minute that if a family member gets hurt on the job - they won't sell you out so they can get medical care... Your cousin won't pay his own medical expenses for his broken arm he got on your watch... He will lawyer up and come after you...

Tom M King
03-13-2018, 9:17 PM
Here, you buy it through an insurance company, although the rate is set by the state, and varies by type of work. You give the insurance company an estimate of how much your payroll will be, pay a startup fee, and then they come audit your checkbook every so often, and payment is adjusted to meet actual payroll.

Peter Kelly
03-13-2018, 9:40 PM
I don't expect that laws regarding workers comp would be any different for Anabaptists...

dirk martin
03-13-2018, 11:38 PM
I don't expect that laws regarding workers comp would be any different for Anabaptists...

I do not know if Amish are Anabaptists, however the WC laws are very different for the Amish.
Matter of fact, they are exempt.
Think insurance = gambling.

dirk martin
03-13-2018, 11:44 PM
Can someone explain to me why on earth Workmans Comp rates are based on salaries?
What's the logic behind that?

One would think that the new, inexperienced worker, that're getting a lower wage, would be more prone to injury than the people in the company getting paid the most.

Rich Engelhardt
03-14-2018, 5:10 AM
Can someone explain to me why on earth Workmans Comp rates are based on salaries?Worker's comp = Workers Compensation = someone hurt on the job get's part of their normal pay while they recuperate.
If you earn more, you get more if/when you can't work due to a job related incident.

Perry Hilbert Jr
03-14-2018, 7:54 AM
I practiced law in PA for 40 years, in Maryland for almost as long and in DC for 30 years. Worker's Comp laws vary so drastically from state to state that only an employment lawyer in Wisconsin or your states'dept of labor can answer those questions. However, on the bright side, once you have employees, you can often cover yourself with WC insurance as well.

Certain jobs are far riskier than others, so WC insurance premiums are adjusted for those risks. An office worker who never runs errands for the employer, might be 4% of wages paid, while a logger might be 100% of wages paid. Years ago, I had a brush with worker's comp for tunnel diggers for the Washington DC subway system. Premiums were 260% of wages paid because of the dangers. One of my clients got a lung condition from spraying shotcrete. He ended up in a wheel chair on oxygen and his long term comp benefits paid for his life easily exceeded 2 million dollars. Had another client who delivered furniture and was shot when he knocked on a door where he was to make a delivery. His employer did not have enough insurance to pay the required benefits and lost everything. While some religious groups will not make a claim for benefits, the state will still probably require coverage. I recently had a client/employer who figured the Amish guy would not ever make a claim and he could skip insurance. After visiting his business, I told him the guy was not Amish, but the client insisted he was. Turns out the guy was German Baptist and when the guy lost some fingers on a table saw, a claim was made and the client had not bothered to get insurance thinking he would never need it. Client assured me everything was filed properly etc. Seems filing false reports with the state constitute a misdemeanor, failing to file withholding reports and pay withholding taxes is even worse. The client barely escaped prison time. the IRS and state liened everything he owned including his house, trucks and hunting cabin.

Too many employers try to claim that employees are independent contractors. But pay by the hour, expect work during certain hours and expect to tell the "independent contractor," what to do and when and how to do it. In almost every state, nearly all such independent contractors are deemed employees and the employer will be in the deep end of the manure pit when things get stirred up. There are exceptions for "casual" employees. A true independent contractor is hired to complete a job How he does it, the hours worked, whether he uses employees or does it himself are entirely up to the independent contractor. For instance, a builder my hire a plumbing company to so all the plumbing at a house under construction. Large residential builders have staff plumbers who are not different than the carpenters and foremen as employees. Your state laws may vary a bit, but trying to cheat the system in this day and age of computers, generally comes back to bite you large and furiously.

Peter Kelly
03-14-2018, 9:00 AM
I do not know if Amish are Anabaptists, however the WC laws are very different for the Amish.
Matter of fact, they are exempt.
Think insurance = gambling.Mennonites, German Baptists and Amish are all Anabaptists.

Per above, I certainly wouldn't roll the dice with workers comp insurance, regardless of what religion your employee(s) might be. Not worth it.

Perry Hilbert Jr
03-14-2018, 10:14 AM
There is at least dozen other groups of anabaptists, Brethren, Schwenkfelder, Hutterites, Bruderhof, etc. A few groups, now gone were very militant anabaptists and led armed rebellions to establish theocracies. One famous group was wiped out, men women and children in a single day. Can't remember the name right now. Found out that many of my ancestors were Mennonite and Quaker. One Greatgrandfather was a Schwenkfelder, although I did not know till long after he died. Schwenkfelders are much like mainstream Christians, no plain clothes, drive cars, have televisions, etc.

Peter Kelly
03-14-2018, 11:12 AM
They were pretty thoroughly persecuted in Europe from the mid-1500s to the 1700s. At one point Anabaptism was actually a capital crime in most places.

About as sad a story you'll ever read about them: https://www.goshen.edu/mqr/dirk-willems

Perry Hilbert Jr
03-14-2018, 12:16 PM
The Martyr's Book of Mirrors has an accounts of hundreds of anabaptists executed and tortured during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The city of Bern Switzerland burned over 70 Mennonites at the stake on a single day. (about 1634) Authorities in holland would sneak around on Sunday mornings trying to find small congregations of anabaptists and they would go in and immediately execute everyone inside. Look up the history of the Waldensians. Whole villages were slaughtered in 1545.

dirk martin
03-14-2018, 12:16 PM
Mennonites, German Baptists and Amish are all Anabaptists.

Per above, I certainly wouldn't roll the dice with workers comp insurance, regardless of what religion your employee(s) might be. Not worth it.

Actually, it's very worth it, and Wisconsin's WC laws have very specific provisions for the Amish, clearly allowing their exemption.

Peter Kelly
03-14-2018, 1:01 PM
I'd assume then, that those laws probably apply to employers and employees specifically within the Amish community.

John C Cox
03-14-2018, 1:17 PM
You as an employer cannot exempt yourself from Liability - religious affiliation notwithstanding... If you are Amish - they won't make you pay for the insurance - but you don't receive coverage from it either.. In that case - an Amish business owner who claimed exemption will have to figure out how to pay for the liability/court fees/medical expenses/lost wages of an injured employee out of his own pocket... Because there is nothing to stop an Amish employee from seeking medical care or lost wages...

As such - I would guess that most Amish businesses actually do choose to pay for the workman's comp insurance - if only to prevent bankrupting the whole business when there is an incident...

It's kinda like the exemption for paying Social Security on Clergy income... You can choose not to pay for social security - but you won't receive any either when you retire.... And so it turns out that many ministers choose to pay for their Social Security because they would really like to get that government pension and medical coverage when they retire....

dirk martin
03-14-2018, 5:11 PM
The Amish sect I'm famiiar with, is exempt from WC coverage.
I am not Amish.
I hire the Amish all the time, but right now, they are working as subcontractors, on their own properties.
I'm hoping to, in the future, hire some of them, working in my facility.

I know several Amish that have been injured at work....while working for other Amish as well as other non-Amish.
They seek medical attention at local hospitals when injured, and pay for this care out of their own pockets.....some times for the rest of their life.

They ask me "If I smash my thumb while hammering, or cut off my finger while running the table saw, why would I blame you?

dirk martin
03-14-2018, 5:21 PM
I'd assume then, that those laws probably apply to employers and employees specifically within the Amish community.

No, these laws also apply to non-Amish employers, hiring Amish workers.
Specifically:

Religious Sect

Employers may apply for an exemption from the duty to insure workers who belong to a religious sect, such as Amish or Mennonites, whose tenets and teachings oppose accepting benefits of any public or private insurance payments for death, disability, old age or retirement, or that makes payments towards the cost of medical care, including federal social security benefits.
The exemption is not automatic. It applies only if all the following occur:


the employer applies for an exemption;
the religious sect has a long standing history (25 years is presumed to be long-standing history) of providing its members who become dependent on the sect as a result of work-related injuries, with a standard of living and medical treatment that are reasonable when compared to the general standard of living and medical treatment for members of the religious sect;
the worker waives his or her rights to worker's compensation and requests an exemption; and,
the religious sect agrees to pay benefits at a reasonable standard of living and medical treatment when compared to the general standards for members of the sect. To qualify for this exemption, employers must apply to the Worker's Compensation Division.

Brian Elfert
03-17-2018, 7:27 AM
In Minnesota the owner(s) of a business does not have to be covered by work comp insurance. I owned a business and covered myself. I was the the only person to get hurt while I owned the business.

dirk martin
03-17-2018, 11:32 AM
That same rule applies in Wisconsin.

Mark Bolton
03-17-2018, 12:28 PM
It may be a bit of an expensive endeavor but I would look into an employment attorney in your area if you really want to be advised on the nuances of the entire employment process and how best to position yourself.

The entire subject of employees is a bitter one for me because we deal with it, and workers comp, and its a complete and total nightmare. I am all for it and glad to have it but the way it is all orchestrated and implemented in most states having employees is a COLOSSAL amount of work for a small business. The paperwork, filling, annual audits, and so on are a financial burden (in time spent) that is basically unrecoverable in most small businesses.

We likely pay a tiny bit higher percentage on comp rates using a pay as you go provider for comp but I would much rather have a slightly higher rate, and management cost, to only pay out weekly what I am required based on my employees paycheck for that week. It makes it very easy to bring new people on, or slow down for a week or two when things are quiet.

I wont even get into the Amish thing. While I know religious exemption wont come to an end any times soon, they operate on a completely unfair, and unrealistic, plane in the business world. I just had an exchange with someone last night over an Amish "contractor" from outside the state trying to steamroll a land owner over access to his "jobsites". If they want in the game, get in the game, and play, and pay, just like the rest of us. If its not a level playing field they shouldnt be allowed in the game.

Mark Bolton
03-17-2018, 12:37 PM
medical treatment that are reasonable when compared to the general standard of living and medical treatment for members of the religious sect;

the worker waives his or her rights to worker's compensation and requests an exemption; and,



What I dont understand is what would it matter to an employee to request exemption (other than for moral principles). Comp is an employer expense. The employee doesnt pay the comp. I mean it would be a bonus to me if my employees could say "hey, Ill sign on the dotted line that I waive my rights if I cut my arm off". But the employee pays nothing into comp. Just like they pay nothing into unemployment. I can count the times I have had an employee think they can "take a layoff" because they have paid into the system when I repeatedly make it clear to them that they dont pay a single penny into unemployment insurance. I pay that cost as the employer. And you dont "ask" to be laid off because you want some time off, or your having car trouble, or you want to be off for deer season. The work is here, you work. You dont want to work? You quit.

We have a lot of business in our area that lay people off left and right. To the point that they will actually organize their year around when they have worked enough weeks in consecutive calendar quarters to be able to draw for X number of weeks. Its utterly insane.

Roger Nair
03-17-2018, 5:37 PM
If I would be in the position as either a general contractor or a property owner, I would require certificates of insurance from all the contractors, purely for the reason the ultimate liability of last resort is the property owner. Prime and sub contractors can be very slippery about coverage and it is prudent to hold their feet to the fire, you must comply or you will not be engaged. The Amish have their own insurance program of Amish aid program, they are very tight with money and put up a front concerning money but within their community they provide some form of mutual aid. So the Amish can dodge all they want, they are not likely to earn my respect as equals in the market place if they want to maintain closed system practices.

Jerome Stanek
03-18-2018, 6:40 AM
When I was doing subcontractor work all the companies I worked for required proof of WC and insurance before I could start

dirk martin
03-18-2018, 3:07 PM
Mark, I've never heard of an "employment attorney". I've heard of criminal attorney's and real estate attorney's, but never employment attorney's.

Maybe I'll have to do some more digging.

dirk martin
03-18-2018, 3:14 PM
I'm not sure what others mean by the Amish working in an unfair plane, in the community.

My brother drives a junker car, and doesn't carry anything but the minimum insurance on it. He lives in a 1 bedroom shack. He powers 95% of his shack with solar and wind. He has no TV, nor microwave. Every time he bids on a project, he wins, cuz he doesn't have all the expenses of most others. Is he being unfair? Others that bid against him, hate seeing him show up to bid. They just walk away. Should he be chastised for being non-materialistic?

Perry Hilbert Jr
03-18-2018, 5:10 PM
But does he pay all the taxes, have all the licenses and permits, have the bonding required by the state? Some contractors who skimp in one area skimp in them all. Frankly, he might not win any bids around here. When I got estimates for some trees near buildings and roads to be removed, I called four different out fits. One guy showed up in a twenty year old station wagon with a grimy Mccullough chain saw in the back, he gave me the highest estimate. Another person showed up wearing flip flops and a beer t-shirt and shorts. His truck was new, but I could see that his tools were just thrown in a wooden crate in the back. The one I hired, showed up in a clean late model truck. I could see that his tools were all well organized and also clean (for used tools), he worse a uniform with an embroidered patch with his name and another patch with the name of his company. The first thing he did was to show me his license, insurance certification and worker['s comp. certification. The guy even had a certificate from the Dept of trans about completing a flagging class for contractors. His estimate was the second lowest. There was no reason to even debate which to hire. He job was completed quickly, they cleaned up thoroughly and I had absolutely no complaints.

Jerome Stanek
03-18-2018, 7:11 PM
I just had my roof replaced and had 5 people come out and give me estimates. 3 were Amish and 2 were roofing companies that have been around for a long time those 2 were 3 times higher then the Amish but 2 of the Amish furnished me with all the papers WC insurance and were bonded. the only one that didn't was an Amish man that had places for me to see his work and no WC or insurance and he was the highest price of the 3. I went with one that was from Amish country that had a non Amish do the driving, phone, estimating and computer billing. When he came out with his Amish boss they gave me copies of all the paper work. When they came out to do the job they had a driver that dropped the workers off and did a very good job and cleaned up and left the place looking perfect. the only problem that I could see was it was cold the last day and the workers had coats on and then it warmed up and they took them off 2 of the workers left their coats when they left. I did take the coats back to their office and had a great meal down in Mount Hope

Bill Dufour
03-18-2018, 7:20 PM
Seems to me allowing a religion to pay lower taxes and thus have lower bids could be unconstitutional. I under stand the religious take on no gambling and that insurance is a type of gambling. But shouldn't they have to put an equal amount of payroll into something else? Otherwise the government is promoting one religion over another
A contractor starting out could claim to be a given religon and not have to pay workers comp thus allowing lower bids then his competition. Do you want the government to decide who is truly pious and who is faking it? Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
Could you pass a college level test about the Bible including spelling and maps? And what language should they test in, which Bible etc. I do not think there are enough Aramaic speakers left to score the written portion.
Bill D.

dirk martin
03-18-2018, 9:41 PM
I'm not aware of the Amish paying lower taxes than the English.
The only tax they are exempt from is Social Security, because they don't accept Social Security payments on the backend. They take care of their own.

dirk martin
03-18-2018, 9:49 PM
The Workman's Comp Insurance Board clearly states that the "religion" must be well established, and they have screening for that.
It wouldn't be possible for a contractor starting out, to make a claim for a bogus religion, to garner such an exemption. These insurance companies aren't stupid.

The Amish fought hard to be exempt from social security taxes, and workmans comp insurance. And, they don't accept payouts from either, on the backend.
Good luck trying to find English willing to subscribe to that.

dirk martin
03-18-2018, 9:54 PM
But does he pay all the taxes, have all the licenses and permits, have the bonding required by the state? Some contractors who skimp in one area skimp in them all. Frankly, he might not win any bids around here. When I got estimates for some trees near buildings and roads to be removed, I called four different out fits. One guy showed up in a twenty year old station wagon with a grimy Mccullough chain saw in the back, he gave me the highest estimate. Another person showed up wearing flip flops and a beer t-shirt and shorts. His truck was new, but I could see that his tools were just thrown in a wooden crate in the back. The one I hired, showed up in a clean late model truck. I could see that his tools were all well organized and also clean (for used tools), he worse a uniform with an embroidered patch with his name and another patch with the name of his company. The first thing he did was to show me his license, insurance certification and worker['s comp. certification. The guy even had a certificate from the Dept of trans about completing a flagging class for contractors. His estimate was the second lowest. There was no reason to even debate which to hire. He job was completed quickly, they cleaned up thoroughly and I had absolutely no complaints.

If this licensing and bonding is required, then yes he does.
I don't see your point.
Are you suggesting only the Amish try and skirt around the law, and not the English?
The comments here were pointing to the Amish as having some sort of unfair advantage....and I guess I don't see how your story relates....