Lacquer thinner variables ?

[Marc Jeske]

Have you folks found when using basic Nitro lacquer, that different brands of thinner make a noticeable difference?

"Lacquer Thinner" is a blend of roughly 7 solvents, so they DO vary.

I am having an issue where...used one brand of thinner at approx 30% sprayed and ended up great... now using a different brand thinner... no other notable changes.... orangepeel, sagging, etc.

I REALLY think it is not my adjustments, and similar weather, but 10 degree warmer... and I'm having some orange peel and when I try to fix it.. sagging.

I just did NOT have these problems the previous job using the first thinner.

The main change seems to just be the reducer.

I first used "Startex Premium",sprayed well, then second time used SW "SW - 1" w the problems above.

I am using Sher Wood Hi-Bild Lacquer T70FT5 approx 2:1 to Laq thinner.

I guess what I am asking is - Is it more likely a different formula of Lacquer thinner causing these problems, OR is it more likely the other many variables ??

Comments ?

Marc

[Jim Becker]

Marc, I have no actual personal experience with NC lacquer, but multiple folks who do have told me that it's really important to stick to "families" of products from the same manufacturer. The relevance here is that it may be a good idea to speak with the manufacturer of the product you want to spray and get their recommendation for a reducer/solvent that works well with their finish.

[Marc Jeske]

Yup, I am also gonna put in a call to their field guy, he's out for a week, so also wanted to query the collective here.

I'll get by on this job, but definitely try to find an answer for the next.

Marc

[Justin Ludwig]

You live in the humid south. Ditch NC lacquers and move to precat or postcards lacquer. Better build, better solids, self sealing and no fuss with blushing. Also doesn’t leave a white line when scratched.

I use gemini precat. I thin 15% with crown thinner and add 3% retarder. Doing this makes for a very friendly and forgiving viscosity, builds really well and also helps prevent solvent pop when spraying red oak. I put 1 fog coat, sand, 2 top coats. Sometimes I sand between top coats and sometimes I don’t. I feel the piece and see if it needs to be sanded again.

[Tony Joyce]

Have you folks found when using basic Nitro lacquer, that different brands of thinner make a noticeable difference?

"Lacquer Thinner" is a blend of roughly 7 solvents, so they DO vary.

I am having an issue where...used one brand of thinner at approx 30% sprayed and ended up great... now using a different brand thinner... no other notable changes.... orangepeel, sagging, etc.

I REALLY think it is not my adjustments, and similar weather, but 10 degree warmer... and I'm having some orange peel and when I try to fix it.. sagging.

I just did NOT have these problems the previous job using the first thinner.

The main change seems to just be the reducer.

I first used "Startex Premium",sprayed well, then second time used SW "SW - 1" w the problems above.

I am using Sher Wood Hi-Bild Lacquer T70FT5 approx 2:1 to Laq thinner.

I guess what I am asking is - Is it more likely a different formula of Lacquer thinner causing these problems, OR is it more likely the other many variables ??

Comments ?

Marc

Marc,
According to the SW PDS on this product(T70)no reduction needed. That said I do occasionally use thinner in the T77F38(precat) I use, but less than 5%
I would definitely stick with SW products. That said their thinners are higher, but worth it for reducing product. There are multiple grades available. You can use the cheaper thinners for cleanup. They have a tech dept you can email if the local can't answer your questions. If they are stocking this product they should be able to help.

PDS link - https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=T70FT1

[Wayne Lomman]

It's a basic rule to use coating material and solvent from the same manufacturer. They are engineered to match. It takes the guess work out of it. When choosing who you buy from, always take the cost of solvent into account as well as the volume solids of the coating. Some manufacturers hide the true cost of their products this way. Cheers

[Marc Jeske]

SW emailed me excellent info data sheet on different thinners.

It's Sherwin Williams products, but includes MUCH info applying to ALL brands.

It is not available online I'm told.


SC will not allow me to upload the PDF cause too big, I'll try to do it different yet today.

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

REDUCERS AND THINNERS For Wood, Metal and Plastic Primers and Finishes Product Finishes Division The Sherwin-Williams Company www.sherwin-williams.com/oem CC-R1 Rev. 05/14
- 1 - SOLVENT BLENDS - A REQUISITE FOR BEST RESULTS WITH MODERN COATINGS Constant improvements in new coatings resulting from new and improved polymers, that are developed by modern industrial research, emphasize more than ever the importance of suitable solvents. No single solvent today is capable of dissolving all of the film-forming ingredients used in formulas of modern coatings. The ideal reducers and thinners for these materials will usually consist of blends of various single solvents, each capable of dissolving one or more particular ingredient(s) in a given coating formula. The question of the thinners and solvents used may not seem too important to some users, however, in the field of industrial coatings, it definitely is important. In fact, the selection and use of the proper reducing agent will very often be the difference between a satisfactory and an unsatisfactory finish. The performance of modern synthetic coatings, including their durability, appear-ance, gloss, flexibility, adhesion and other properties, is frequently affected by thinners used in the coatings. WHAT ARE THINNERS, REDUCERS AND SOLVENTS? A thinner or a reducer is a volatile material added to a paint, enamel, lacquer or varnish, usually immediately before application, to give proper body, consistency or viscosity for application. It serves merely as a carrying agent which permits the film-forming components to be applied uniformly either by brush, dip, spray, etc. The composition of today’s industrial coatings may be broken down into four major groupings, each of which within itself may contain a number of ingredients:  Pigment  Film Formers (Polymers) or Binders  Volatile Material or Solvents  Miscellaneous Additives The first two of these (pigment and film formers) constitute the bulk of the protective or decorative coatings. The film former or binder is made up of ingredients such as varnish, resin, alkyd, oil, plasticizer, etc. The third item is in the form of the thinner or solvent, which can be included in a manufacturer’s formula, and/or added prior to application by the user. There are no film-forming qualities contained in the volatile material. This serves only as a carrier for the film-forming material and evaporates very shortly after application, at which time further oxidation or drying sets in. The fourth item is a grouping of all the other minor ingredients such as anti-oxidant, driers, flow agents, suspending agents, dispersing agents, etc. WHAT ARE THE MAJOR TYPES OF SOLVENTS USED IN THINNERS AND REDUCERS? Industrial solvents, other than those blended for use with specific materials, resolve themselves into different groups, based partly on their origin and partly on their performance. There are many solvents which would fall into these major categories; however, those listed on the chart on the following page are the most important and constantly utilized solvents in the chemical coatings industry. WHAT ARE THE MAJOR PROPERTIES OF A SOLVENT? There are five major properties of all solvents which must be considered, both in the formulation of a liquid coating and in the later use for thinning purposes: Flash Point, Air Quality, Evaporation Rate, Solvent Strength, and Conductivity. These properties affect considerably the performance of the coating. The chart on pages 9 and 10 shows relative ranking of solvent power for commonly used solvents.
2 TYPES OF SOLVENTS Aliphatics Hydrocarbons Aromatics Hydrocarbons Alcohols VM&P Naphtha Mineral Spirits Gasoline Kerosene 140 Flash Aliphatic Naphtha Toluene Ethyl Benzene Xylene Hi-Flash Naphtha - 100 Flash Aromatic Naphtha - 150 Flash Methanol Ethanol Propanol Butanol Isobutanol Diacetone Alcohol Esters Ketones Glycol Ethers Ethyl Acetate Butyl Acetate Isobutyl Acetate Amyl Acetate Ethyl 3-Ethoxypropionate (EEP) Acetone Methyl Ethyl Ketone Methyl Isobutyl Ketone Methyl Amyl Ketone Butyl Cellosolve Butyl Carbitol Texanol® Ester Alcohol Methoxypropanol (PM) Glycol Ether Esters Terpenes & Chlorinated Hydrocarbons Mixed Solvents Butyl Cellosolve Acetate Carbitol Acetate Turpentine Pine Oil Methylene Chloride 1,1,1 - Trichloroethane Blends of these listed solvents to give balanced performance in a given liquid coating. EVAPORATION RATE This is the rate at which the solvent changes from a liquid to a vapor. The evaporation rate of an organic solvent is important from several aspects. [1] Flow - A slower evaporating solvent permits the coating to remain in a fluid or wet state longer thus increasing the leveling of the coating. [2] Distinctiveness of Image (DOI) - The better the flow or leveling the higher the DOI, especially true of high gloss enamels. [3] Blush Resistance - A fast evaporating solvent lowers the surface temperature of the coating very rapidly which causes the condensation of moisture to take place on the wet coating. The moisture combines at times with certain film formers resulting in a precipitation of these film formers causing a milky tint or loss of gloss. [4] Wet Edge - Brush application must have a continuous wet edge to brush into to prevent brush marking. [5] Sag Resistance - A slow evaporating solvent will cause the coating to remain fluid which could result in sagging of the coating. [6] Bloom or Haze Resistance - This is somewhat similar to blush resistance and results from insufficient solvency to keep the film formers in solution until all the non-solvents leave the wet film. From these and other aspects, it is important that a solvent or solvents with the correct evaporation rate be selected for each type of coating and application method employed. The application of the coating by dip, spray, flow, roller coat, brush, knife coater, will require a specific organic solvent or solvents. It is also important to keep in mind the rate of evaporation of solvent with changes in weather condition. Humidity and temperature will definitely affect the rate of evaporation of a solvent. FLASH POINT The flash point of a solvent is the temperature at which vapors of the solvent when mixed with oxygen can be ignited by an open flame, spark or electrical spark. Three methods are normally used in flash point determinations: [1] Tag Open Cup (TOC); [2] Tag Closed Cup (TCC). As the name implies, this method uses an open or closed cup to determine the flash or ignition temperature of the solvent. Interstate shipping regulations such as Department of Transportation are controlled by Tag Open Cup determinations. [3] Pensky Martens Closed Cup is similar to tag closed cup, but is used for pigmented products and appears on Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for those products

[Marc Jeske]

3 AIR QUALITY INFORMATION In addition to the above properties, a new requirement must be met to minimize the pollution of air. The pollution of air from many sources, besides solvents, has created a need to control contamination. Certain solvents because of their molecular structure are highly reactive and contribute to smog or smog manifestations. These manifestations include eye irritation, irritation of the respiratory tract, vegetation damage and reduced visibility. It is these solvents and other contaminants which have brought about legislation. The West Coast, with Los Angeles (Rule 66k) being the forerunner, has started a trend which has spread across the country and exists in every major metropolitan area as well as state regulations. The original air quality classification for organic solvents is photochemically reactive or non-photochemically reactive. Current EPA regulations address air quality by defining allowable emission levels for various industries and finishing operations. Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC) (in pounds of volatile organic compound per gallon of coating) is used in the current EPA regulations. In addition, HAPS (Hazardous Air Pollutants) listed solvents are facing additional restrictions. Contact the nearest Sherwin-Williams representative for further information regarding specific information about your area and its air pollution regulations. The Federal Environmental Protection Agency has established National Emission Standards for HAZARDOUS AIR POLLUTANTS (HAPS) as part of the Clean Air Act. There are many volatile hazardous air pollutants (HAPS) listed in the regulation, but the major solvents impacting the coatings industry are: Toluene Methanol Xylene Butyl Carbitol® Ethylene Glycol Butyl Carbitol® Acetate Isophorone MIBK Some other glycol ethers and glycol ether esters Common solvents that are not HAPS listed are: VM&P Naphtha Acetone Mineral Spirits Methyl Amyl Ketone Isopropyl Alcohol Methyl Ethyl Ketone Butyl Alcohols Butyl Acetate Butyl Cellosolve® HAPS regulations vary by categories, location source classification, and if a new or existing source. Contact your State Air Pollution Agency to determine the compliance schedule for your area. EDS available through HEARS to determine HAPS. For further questions pertaining to HAPS contact Regulatory Services at (216)566-2902. EXEMPT SOLVENTS The current Federal EPA Regulations exempt the following solvents from Federal VOC regulations: Water Methyl Acetate Carbon Dioxide Oxsol 100 Acetone T-Butyl Acetate (TBAC) Trichloroethane and Other Chromated/ Fluorinated Ethanes and Methanes They will be treated just like water on the HEARS (Health, Environmental and Regulatory Services) program and will be reported as VOC less exempt solvents. Record keeping, reporting and inventory requirements for TBAC have not been changed. Please note that some states may not exempt these solvents in their state regulations. For example, Acetone R6K9 is an extremely volatile ketone with a flash point of 1°F. It represents a significant safety hazard because of its volatility and flash point. Products with flashpoints under 21°F have much stricter storage and packaging requirements. Oxsol 100 is a para chlorobenzene trifluoride (PCBTF) manufactured by Occidental Chemical. It has an evaporation rate somewhat similar to xylene, a flash point of 109°F and is claimed to have solubility with a

[Marc Jeske]

Copy/paste is messing it all up, there is much more than above...will try tonight.... my spraygun is calling.

Marc

[John C Cox]

My experience is that 10F difference in temperature can make a big difference with laquer.. And yes - especially so with the solvents... Solvents formulated more for "cold" places evaporate much faster and vice versa...

Spraying lacquer here in the deep south is almost the opposite of the cold north.. It's more of a challenge to find a day cold enough so it flows out right, lays down, and doesn't orange peel... But the correct solvent helps this a LOT... And due to what I noted above - sometimes more of the wrong solvent does no good.. It just evaporates too fast...

Why not just try mixing and shooting it with the solvent you used that worked right... That would answer your question faster than we can. ;) ;)

[Marc Jeske]

John - I had run out of the first solvent , and have to drive 80 miles to get it again.

The benefits of living in the Texas Piney Woods. :(

Marc

[John C Cox]

So why not test it out with 10-20% more thinner than you used last time and give it a go on scrap...

or - a big one for me... Spray in the morning or evening when it's cooler.. If you are outside - make sure you are out of the sun.. That 10 or 15 degrees cooler can make a world of difference when you are having problems with flow out.

[Marc Jeske]

After spraying the same mix that gave trouble a few days earlier.. with excellent results this second time... I decided my problem was caused by fighting "wind gusts up to 8 mph".

I thought I could fight with that low level of occasional gust, but the wind won.Not only did it make me spray a little closer, the wind also flashed off lessening the flow out time.

So now I will know better.


As I said above, I got an excellent 10 page PDF w allll kinds of solvent tech info.

It is beyond my computer skill to properly post it here.

Right click copy/paste messes it up.

If there is interest.. and someone can guide or help, I would be happy to attempt again.

Or if someone wants me to email them the PDF file, maybe they can post it.

IMHO, it qualifies to be a "Sticky".

I promise it is a VERY good well written tech paper.

So, let me know.

Marc

[Rich Engelhardt]

IMHO, it qualifies to be a "Sticky".Couldn't agree more!

Excellent dissertation on solvents.

[Marc Jeske]

My son self taught computer genius has helped us - Go here for full file -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10rTKmms787OdTCmR8bi0oA5khzIbFnN8/view?usp=sharing

[Bruce Page]

My son self taught computer genius has helped us

Very cool Marc. Aren't kids great!

[John C Cox]

Yep... With lacquer - a "recipe" is more of a "guideline".. That stuff is a dance.... It's almost as bad as Boat resin... A little hotter or colder... A little more dry or a little more humid.. A little wind... and it does different things...

At least yours isn't full of dog hairs, curious little gnats/midges, and pollen...