Need your recommendation for a couple "water" stones

[John C Cox]

Hey guys,

I would appreciate your recommendation for a few "water" stones..
Here are my criteria (in this order)
#1 - Must be fast cutting.
#2 - Must be effective on the new fancy pants super alloy steels
#3 - I would prefer a stone which is spritzed, used, cleaned, then stored dry rather than a full-on wet submerged stone..
#4 - I would prefer something which I can use with a jig.. Not so soft that a jig would leave tracks or ruin the stone.
#5 - I want to start off with grit from 2000-5000 or maybe up to 8000...

Also - I need a recommendation for a good stone lapping stone that doesn't throw the grit out of whack...

Ceramic is OK
Synthetic is OK
They do not have to be "traditional" Japanese fare.. If a Norton or Spyderco would work great and fit the bill - I would love to know.

I already have diamond plates, sandpaper, and power sharpening - so please no suggestions for that stuff..

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi John,

I use the Bester/Imanishi Ceramic Waterstones in 4000 and 8000 grits for final sharpening. For rougher work I use my diamond stones/diamond paste/veritas mk II system. Both the 4000 and 8000 are spritz and use stones and stay reasonable flat in use. I use a lot of PM-v11 and A2 steels and they work pretty well with these steels.

To flatten the stones I use 180 grit lapping grit on a steel lapping plate, and it's very fast.

[Patrick Chase]

#2 - Must be effective on the new fancy pants super alloy steels

Can you clarify how fancy and super you want to get here?

No waterstone in existence can put a truly good edge on the crazy stuff with ~10% Vanadium (CPM-10V, CPM-S90V, etc). Those alloys are starting to blur the line between "steel" and "cemented carbide", and more or less have to be sharpened like the latter. In other words, diamond/cbn or bust.

Softer waterstones like the Sigma Select II line can stretch up to, say, CPM-3V, M4 HSS, or HAP-40, though they won't leave as good an edge as diamond film or compound can. See for example Steve Elliott's "initial sharpness" (http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/initial_sharpness.html) results on various media. Note how the A2 iron sharpens almost as well on the Shapton stone as on diamond, whereas there's a bigger difference between media for the M2 HSS iron and a significant difference for the CPM-3V iron. The Select II line would do a bit better than the Shapton on those steels because they're softer and shed worn-out grains faster, but the fundamental problem here is that Vanadium Carbide is harder than Alumina, so no Alumina waterstone will ever be able to put an optimal edge on that steel.

If you're just talking about, say, CPM-V11 then just about anything with Alumina abrasive in it will work well. The grain is fine enough that Silica stones will also work even though they can't directly cut the Chromium carbides, but they'll be slow.

[David M Peters]

I get really good results using the Shapton Kuromaku 8000 grit stone for my final polishing step. Just spritz 'n go, and it's only $64 on Amazon. I also have the 12,000 grit model but cannot get a better finish from it than the 8000 model, even with soaking in water.

For work under 8000 I use DMT diamond plates.

[Matt Lau]

All I have are spyderco M and UF, and a Japanese Natural.
I also have some diamond stones, but don't use them for sharpening much (unless I have a huge knick on the blade to repair).
Mainly, I'll use diamond stones for leveling frets on guitars.

On my short list is Stu's special set. However, I'd keep an ear out for whatever Stan recommends.

[Derek Cohen]

Hey guys,

I would appreciate your recommendation for a few "water" stones..
Here are my criteria (in this order)
#1 - Must be fast cutting.
#2 - Must be effective on the new fancy pants super alloy steels
#3 - I would prefer a stone which is spritzed, used, cleaned, then stored dry rather than a full-on wet submerged stone..
#4 - I would prefer something which I can use with a jig.. Not so soft that a jig would leave tracks or ruin the stone.
#5 - I want to start off with grit from 2000-5000 or maybe up to 8000...

Also - I need a recommendation for a good stone lapping stone that doesn't throw the grit out of whack...

Ceramic is OK
Synthetic is OK
They do not have to be "traditional" Japanese fare.. If a Norton or Spyderco would work great and fit the bill - I would love to know.

I already have diamond plates, sandpaper, and power sharpening - so please no suggestions for that stuff..

John, speed is a relative issue - it depends on what you are used to, and how you sharpen. I hollow grind all my blades, and then freehand on the hollow. If this is OK, then I can recommend Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine as stones that meet the criteria. The one downside is thta they are only 2" wide. That does not create a problem with me, but it may be a deal breaker for you. I spritz with a little soapy water, mainly to keep the surface from clogging up. These are hard stones which do not mark when honing very narrow blades. I hone PM-V11, A2, and M4 on them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John C Cox]

See.. It's pages like Steve's and Brent's that would convince you that super high Vanadium carbide alloy materials are good choices for chisels and plane irons in real life... But alas - that path leads only to The Dark Side.. Frustration, anger, pain, and worn out diamond plates... And there is no joy there in real life... And I am becoming less and less enamored with steels with any significant amount of Vanadium because it turns into impossible V-carbide... At least Cr and Mo carbides are somewhat managable...

I put a huge beating on my diamond plates trying to make myself love HSS hand tool blades.. The middle of my DMT X-fine now cuts slower than my DMT 3 micron... And it leaves a super shiny finish... CPM-M10 is actually harder to hone and harder on diamond stones than Cemented carbide...

Anyway... Yeah - enough of that stuff.. I plan to use these stones for stuff that can be effectively sharpened by it...


Can you clarify how fancy and super you want to get here?

No waterstone in existence can put a truly good edge on the crazy stuff with ~10% Vanadium (CPM-10V, CPM-S90V, etc). Those alloys are starting to blur the line between "steel" and "cemented carbide", and more or less have to be sharpened like the latter. In other words, diamond/cbn or bust.

Softer waterstones like the Sigma Select II line can stretch up to, say, CPM-3V, M4 HSS, or HAP-40, though they won't leave as good an edge as diamond film or compound can. See for example Steve Elliott's "initial sharpness" (http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/initial_sharpness.html) results on various media. Note how the A2 iron sharpens almost as well on the Shapton stone as on diamond, whereas there's a bigger difference between media for the M2 HSS iron and a significant difference for the CPM-3V iron. The Select II line would do a bit better than the Shapton on those steels because they're softer and shed worn-out grains faster, but the fundamental problem here is that Vanadium Carbide is harder than Alumina, so no Alumina waterstone will ever be able to put an optimal edge on that steel.

If you're just talking about, say, CPM-V11 then just about anything with Alumina abrasive in it will work well. The grain is fine enough that Silica stones will also work even though they can't directly cut the Chromium carbides, but they'll be slow.

[brian zawatsky]

I get really good results using the Shapton Kuromaku 8000 grit stone for my final polishing step. Just spritz 'n go, and it's only $64 on Amazon. I also have the 12,000 grit model but cannot get a better finish from it than the 8000 model, even with soaking in water.

For work under 8000 I use DMT diamond plates.

I’m glad it’s not just me. I actually find that I get a better edge from my 8k Shapton than from the 12, hands down. I don’t even bother with it anymore. Even raising a slurry with a nagura doesn’t really help.

[Patrick Chase]

Anyway... Yeah - enough of that stuff.. I plan to use these stones for stuff that can be effectively sharpened by it...

OK, so let's assume you want to do A2 and PM-V11, with the ability to do HSS in a pinch. Basically all of the synthetic waterstones we're discussing here are Alumina based, so what you would look for is a medium-hardness stone. For that sort of use I'd go with something like Stu's Sigma Power combo (not Select II, which are pretty soft and optimized more for HSS) or maybe Imanishi. There is no free lunch BTW: You can have an Alumina stone that is hard or an Alumina stone that is fast-cutting on difficult steel, but the only way to get both at the same time is to move up to superabrasives like diamond and CBN.

Shaptons Pros are pretty hard, which makes them dish-resistant but also makes them slow when confronted with difficult alloys for the reasons outlined above. Shapton themselves state that the Pro line is optimized for HCS, so maybe not what you're looking for here. Shaptons also run coarse. For example their 8K stone is ~1.75 um, whereas the JIS98-compliant manufacturers like Imanishi/Sigma/etc are about 1.2 um at 8K.

[Stewie Simpson]

Why is it that a fast cutting Norton Crystolon Oil Stone rarely gets mentioned as the 1st stone of choice.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi John,

I have shapton ceramics (1000, 5000, 12000) I got from Stu, along with a atoma flattening plate. Use on O1, A2, PMV11 usually hollow ground and with a jig. And Japanese chisels flat ground, free hand. I use them in a largely unheated shop in N. Idaho. They just sit there and I use with a splash of water. was ~$250 for the kit and kaboddle. No complaints or desire to do anything else, despite a propensity to geek out on such matters.

Best,
Chris

[bridger berdel]

Why is it that a fast cutting Norton Crystolon Oil Stone rarely gets mentioned as the 1st stone of choice.

Because they are only $20 or so. No way they can be as good as a $300+ japanese stone. /s

To be fair, the OP did ask specifically about waterstones.

[Patrick Chase]

Why is it that a fast cutting Norton Crystolon Oil Stone rarely gets mentioned as the 1st stone of choice.

Because the OP specified a grit range of 2000-8000. Crystolon (and SiC stones in general) don't cover that range. If he'd asked about a coarse stone for fixing damage then the answer would have been different.

[Patrick Chase]

Because they are only $20 or so. No way they can be as good as a $300+ japanese stone. /s

Nobody has recommended a $300 stone in this thread. The highest I've seen from anybody is about $100.

[John C Cox]

So it sounds like the recommendations so far are:
Sigma II
Imanishi
Shapton
Spyderco

Price wise - they all look about the same....

I am really curious about the reputation of the Sigma II as a really fast cutting stone... Does it really cut a lot faster than the others listed? Is there a good reason I should look at one of the others over that other than dishing faster?

[Richard Verwoest]

What about the Ohishi stones carried by LN? Any thoughts or comments?

[Derek Cohen]

So it sounds like the recommendations so far are:
Sigma II
Imanishi
Shapton
Spyderco

Price wise - they all look about the same....

I am really curious about the reputation of the Sigma II as a really fast cutting stone... Does it really cut a lot faster than the others listed? Is there a good reason I should look at one of the others over that other than dishing faster?

John, I have sets of the Sigma, Shapton and Spyderco stones. The Sigma and Shapton are similar in hardness, while the Sigma are better/faster at cutting steels such as M2 and PM-V11. Spyderco cut these steels as well, but not as fast. However they are the hardest stones of all and will take pressure from a narrow blade without leaving any grooves. The others will gouge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I am really curious about the reputation of the Sigma II as a really fast cutting stone... Does it really cut a lot faster than the others listed? Is there a good reason I should look at one of the others over that other than dishing faster?

To be clear I would recommend Sigma Power rather than Select II based on what you've said so far. The Select IIs are softer than any of the other stones you list. Whether that makes them faster depends on the steel, and specifically whether it dulls the abrasive particles of harder/slower stones. For HSS or Stainless the Select IIs are much faster than than any other waterstone I've used. On HCS/W1/O1, the difference is much smaller as the abrasive remains sharp for a long time, and doesn't need to be released. In cases like that you'd just be flushing perfectly good abrasive down the sink with the Select II.

One other option is to choose a harder stone, but use a Nagura or diamond plate to frequently remove dull abrasive when working difficult steel. I sometimes do that with my Shaptons and my Sigma Power 1000 Hard (a very hard stone). From an economic perspective that's arguably the best of all worlds, as it's fast on difficult steel but doesn't needlessly shed abrasive with easier steels.


John, I have sets of the Sigma, Shapton and Spyderco stones. The Sigma and Shapton are similar in hardness, while the Sigma are better/faster at cutting steels such as M2 and PM-V11. Spyderco cut these steels as well, but not as fast. However they are the hardest stones of all and will take pressure from a narrow blade without leaving any grooves. The others will gouge.

This is an accurate description of the Sigma Power stones IMO. The Select IIs are a different and much softer beast.

[bridger berdel]

Nobody has recommended a $300 stone in this thread. The highest I've seen from anybody is about $100.

You missed the /s