Why saw the waste in dovetails vs chiselling it?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi guys,
I've been reading along in the thread about Blue Spruce's upcoming fret saw, re-reading other dovetail posts and of course reading Derek's blog. I still can't quite put it altogether: what's the advantage of sawing out the waste (with a good fretsaw, etc) versus chiselling it out?

Sawing it doesn't look like it saves time, because I still have to carefully pare to the baseline after removing the bulk waste. By chiselling, I get a good baseline and it saves a step.

But I think I'm missing something important, because any number of you have said you used to chisel but now saw, because the KC Fretsaw is such a game changer.

I've got $100 burning a hole in my pocket, but I won't use that KC saw for anything else if I don't get much gain from sawing the waste. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts, especially if you switched from chiselling to sawing.

Thank you!
Fred

[Jason Lester]

Easier to change out a saw blade than to keep sharpening chisels.

[Brian Hale]

For me, and my limited experience, small dovetails are easier to saw because there is less room for a chisel. Larger dovetails don't benefit as much since i just make a couple vertical chops and split from the end. Either way ya need to sneak up on your base line with a chisel.

Brian :)

[Simon MacGowen]

Unless the dovetails are pretty small ones, I always saw out the waste for these reasons-

it is quicker because you have a lot less to chop away before you chop or pare right on the baseline. Say, for a 1" thick stock, I saw out 3/4" or more of waste already and that's 3/4"wood or so less to chop

it saves me from honing my chisels frequently (not that I don't, but for a different reason). 1" thick white oak is tough on my chisels

I can gang saw the tail waste but you can't gang chisel it

Unlike chiselling, you don't have to flip boards until the final stage of paring or chopping

I also like practice sawing with a fret or coping saw

In general, a saw is for rough work (and removing waste is rough work) and a chisel for fine, precision work as far as I am concerned. There are exceptions of course. But that guideline works for me when I do hand work.

I know Christian Becksvoort chisels while Ian Kirby and Rob Cosman saw. If you like chiselling (which is good for practicing chisel skills), keep it.
Simon

[Prashun Patel]

In fact for me small dovetails are easy to chop because there is less waste. The bigger and thicker the dovetails, the longer it would take to chisel for me.

I have completely chopped before and I have seen people who are super fast at it, but until you get really speedy, it can be physically and mentally fatiguing to do all that chopping.

For that matter, I prefer to saw the bulk of the waste with a bandsaw.

[Oskar Sedell]

If noise were no consideration, I think I would chop more. But sawing is quieter, and I really want to keep my neighbours happy, so that I can keep woodworking in the cellar. No I can do a few final chops to the line, and some paring to fit after removing most waste with a saw.

[Mike Henderson]

One problem with removing waste when doing dovetails is having the wood "break off" as you chisel it out, leaving a hole at the back of the dovetail. These nasty looking gaps generally don't show once you glue up the dovetails but just seem wrong to me. I've tried several things to avoid them.

One way is a specific way of chopping out the waste so that the waste is always supported - I'll try to add some pictures of what I mean later. The other way is to saw the waste with a fret saw and to saw very close to the line. If I saw very close, I find that the final chop to the line with a sharp chisel "usually" makes a clean cut.

The specific method of chopping out the waste is more reliable but sawing can work.

Beyond that, I don't find that sawing is faster than chopping. And in any case, speed is probably not the most important thing in making hand cut dovetails.

I go back and forth with my dovetails - sometimes I saw and sometimes I chop. Just depends on how I feel.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

I prefer to saw, it can be faster in many instances especially in harder woods.

[Jim Koepke]

Sawing seems faster and less prone to bruised baselines.

My dovetails have improved with sawing the waste as opposed to chopping the waste.

Of course, 381057

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Hi guys,
I've been reading along in the thread about Blue Spruce's upcoming fret saw, re-reading other dovetail posts and of course reading Derek's blog. I still can't quite put it altogether: what's the advantage of sawing out the waste (with a good fretsaw, etc) versus chiselling it out?

In my experience it takes less physical effort (though perhaps not less time) to saw the waste out than to chisel it. As you say you still have to pare to the baseline, but paring is pretty easy, and you would have to do it after chopping anyway even if you chiseled the waste out.

Speaking for myself sawing subjectively strikes me as a more finesseful approach than chopping.

[Brian Holcombe]

I chop the baseline rather than pare, after sawing. I like chopping wherever possible.

[Mike Henderson]

Here's a comparison of chopping and sawing for dovetails. The wood is cherry and I did these initial saw cuts on my bandsaw. I cut three places for pins, which have to be wasted.
381085

First, a more or less traditional approach to chopping: Start your first cut a bit off the gauge line.
381084

Then remove some of the waste.
381087

Chop next at the gauge line.
381086

Turn the board over and do a chop just off the gauge line.
381089

Remove the waste.
381088

Then chop at the gauge line all the way through. More than likely you'll get breakout.
381090


Continued in the next post.

[Mike Henderson]

There's a way to pretty much avoid having that breakout when chopping out the waste. We start just like before with the first chop just off the gauge line.
381092

Then chop into that cut making a "V". Make the V as narrow as possible.
381091

Then chop at the gauge line and clean out the V.
381094

Turn the board over and make the first chop just off the gauge line, and remove the waste - just like the previous post.
381096

Chop back to the line and continue until you're through.
381095

This will usually give you a clean cut.
381097

The reason this works is because the waste is supported as you're chopping down from the back side - so it doesn't break out. You do need a very sharp chisel to make this work.

Someone might say, "Why not just chop completely through from one side? That way, the wood is supported all the way through and you won't have breakout."
There are two problems with that approach:
1. If you chop all the way through, you'll chop into your bench.
2. More important, you'll never wind up on the gauge line at the bottom.


Continued on next post.

[Mike Henderson]

Now, an example of sawing the waste. I used the Knew Concepts fret saw to saw the waste out. You want to saw close to the gauge line without sawing along it.

More than likely, you'll be further off the gauge line at the back. You'll watch how close you are on the front of the board and you'll make sure you don't cut downward towards the back. Place the board down with the widest space between the cut and the gauge line up. That usually means the back is up.
381099

Chop on the gauge line with a sharp chisel.
381098

Then turn the board over and do the same from the other side. This will usually give you a clean cut. Here you can see the breakout in the first wasted area, while the other two are pretty clean.
381100

Mike

[Just an added comment: Dull chisels can cause breakout, no matter what technique you use. And sometimes the wood just breaks out even with a very sharp chisel. Some woods are more susceptible to breakout. Pine seems to be one. And sometimes it just the way the grain runs or maybe there's a knot close to your cut.]

[Chet R Parks]

Mike, thanks for the information, I always saw out the waste but never thought of removing the waste as you show in the second post because the waste is supported it doesn't brake out, That's helpful to know. Thanks again.
Chet

[Derek Cohen]

Fred, the issue of sawing waste becomes clearer when through dovetailing carcases in hardwood. A drawer with half blind dovetails, especially where the secondary wood is soft, is not the same deal.

There are two factors to sawing: the first is that it is quicker to saw away the waste on a (through) pin board. This may also be the case with the tail board, depending on how wide the tails are sawn. The tiny tails on my drawers are easy to chop out. Even so I do not do so. This is where the second reason comes in: there is less chance of spelching/breaking out the baseline if you saw and leave a slither of wood to either pare or chop away.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks everyone!

I currently chop the waste almost exactly the way Mike shows it above. Thanks Mike - great tutorial and glad to know my approach is consistent with someone who actually teaches this stuff like you do.

This afternoon, I found a case where chopping the waste would not work for me - there was less than 1/8" between the wide end of my tails. Because I couldn't easily chop the waste, I reduced the number of tails to widen that gap. So I accidentally convinced myself that I do I want to be able to saw the waste occasionally.

So I'll order a KC fretsaw tonight if I can make up my mind on which one to buy. (The 5" Mark IV swivels 360 but is heavier than the 5" Mark III most people have. But the Mk III doesn't do 360.)

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Fred

[lowell holmes]

I also chop my dovetails as Mike does it. I learned to make dovetails at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas about 20 years ago.

[ken hatch]

Like many, which way I approach dovetail waste depends and I have and still use both coping saws and fret saws (including the KC fret) but the best saw and the one I will use 90% of the time is a TFWW 12" bow saw. It is as fast or faster than a coping saw and can do everything a fret saw does. I find it is the perfect saw for removing dovetail waste.

ken

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, thanks for the information, I always saw out the waste but never thought of removing the waste as you show in the second post because the waste is supported it doesn't brake out, That's helpful to know. Thanks again.
Chet

It's nice to have an alternate technique when you realize you just broke your last saw blade:)

Mike

[Dave Zellers]

First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.

[Stanley Covington]

+1

I used to chisel out the waste, but after seeing Rob Cosman's video tried sawing. The results were quicker, cleaner, and tearout was reduced to zero. What's not to like?

[Simon MacGowen]

First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.

I will let others share their preferences with you. Here is mine.

Whenever I can, I chop; when chopping is not the best approach, I pare. Even with a sharp edge, paring in general requires more efforts, but I like the added control when you pare. For example, I tend to pare when I chisel a knife wall, although now and then I also tap a (wide) chisel for the same job. I have not really analyzed why I pare in one case and chop in another; the choice just comes from experience. Sometimes because of mood perhaps. I don't know about you, but mood sometimes is a factor in my choice of tools or methods. I can work several days in a row all hand tools, or a whole week with mostly power tools, or my shop could stay quiet for a few weeks as if vacated. My neighbors could never find a fixed work pattern for my shop.

In the case of dovetails, after the sawing of waste, they are cut mostly with chopping, except where fine tuning is needed and paring is used. One of the times I use the heel of my hand is when I hand tap a chisel to start a dado cut after the dado walls are sawn. I don't think I've used my hand as a mallet in any of my dovetail work, through or half-blind.

So in a nutshell, chopping is used unless paring is a better approach (sorry for being a bit too generalized).

If you aren't sure which works best, why not use both methods for the same or similar joint and see what works better for you.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

First off, I love threads like these and follow them closely although I rarely participate. My skill level falls in the lower half of the main participants here.

That said, is the difference between paring and chopping the lack of a mallet? What about gentle tapping? What if you use the heel of your hand as the mallet? I'm sorry, but I'm serious.

Perhaps paring is with the grain and chopping is across the grain? But I do think it is possible to pare across the grain. I think the difference between paring and chopping might be the amount being removed.

As I said, I would love to hear what the more experienced woodworkers than me have to say about this.

I don't know if there's a dictionary answer to your question, but for me, chopping is hitting the chisel with a mallet. Paring is pushing with your hand. A paring chisel will normally be sharpened at a fairly low angle, maybe 25 degrees or even 20 degrees. If you hit a paring chisel (with that low a bevel angle), the edge would probably crumble. To me, you can pare cross grain or with the grain.

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

Good stuff, Mike. Thanks for sharing; got to try that in my next dovetail job.

All these years, I have been using Ian Kirby's method, which is slightly different from yours although the principle is the same, to prevent the breakout on the wall. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Simon

[Dave Zellers]

A paring chisel will normally be sharpened at a fairly low angle, maybe 25 degrees or even 20 degrees. If you hit a paring chisel (with that low a bevel angle), the edge would probably crumble. Mike
Ah- I like this. I do know that some advocate paring chisels be ground to low angles and I know that Rob Cosman advocates going as low as 17º at least for softwoods. So you may have answered my question Mike. Perhaps paring vs chopping has more to do with the angle of the grind given your point of the durability of the edge. The harshness of striking with a mallet vs the gentle push of the hand dictates the grind which defines the action of chopping vs paring.

[Mike Henderson]

Good stuff, Mike. Thanks for sharing; got to try that in my next dovetail job.

All these years, I have been using Ian Kirby's method, which is slightly different from yours although the principle is the same, to prevent the breakout on the wall. Again, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Simon

I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

Mike

Please give me some time to dig up his writing...it should be somewhere in one of the cabinets. Tomorrow.

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

Mike

he wrote an entire book on it. The complete dovetail: handmade furniture’s signature joint

[steven c newman]

Hands have too much trouble using a coping/fret saw...so..I chop.

I did pick up a few tips from Sellers. I also only flip the boards over once.

[Kevin Smira]

Thanks everyone!

I currently chop the waste almost exactly the way Mike shows it above. Thanks Mike - great tutorial and glad to know my approach is consistent with someone who actually teaches this stuff like you do.

This afternoon, I found a case where chopping the waste would not work for me - there was less than 1/8" between the wide end of my tails. Because I couldn't easily chop the waste, I reduced the number of tails to widen that gap. So I accidentally convinced myself that I do I want to be able to saw the waste occasionally.

So I'll order a KC fretsaw tonight if I can make up my mind on which one to buy. (The 5" Mark IV swivels 360 but is heavier than the 5" Mark III most people have. But the Mk III doesn't do 360.)

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

Fred

I have the KC 5” MKIV with swivel and lever tension (the “top of the line 5” non titanium). I saw the waste and find it much quicker. However, as a newer hand cut dovetail woodworker, I find many of my practice boards being chopped off, shooting the end grain again and trying once more. For me, I can’t find the balance between close enough to the line without going “under” it and leaving too much waste. Practice makes perfect and select pine at the big box stores isn’t terribly expensive, so...

As a side note, make sure to order a dozen (or more) blades when you order your saw. For me in the North Alabama area, nobody sells 5 1/8” fret saw blades...so, if I snap one, I’m relegated to chopping!

[Robert Engel]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making (also pins first). I've done them that way for >20 years. His reason for leaving the waste is it supports the cut from the other side, make a clean endgrain result. I agree and this has been my experience, too, case in point, what Mike is describing. Some will blame it on a dull chisel, IME it will happen right off the stone.

That being said, I often will saw out the waste in hardwoods or thick TS, but only because it saves time, not because it results in a better dt.

Lately I've really like using a 7° bevelled FT rip blade to cut the tails on the TS, then I chisel out the pins by hand. REALLY speeds things up on a big job if you're not opposed to the hybrid approach ;-)

I recommend getting the Klausz video just for another perspective.

[Brian Hale]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making ...........

Is that the video where he says "Outside of the tree, inside of the drawer" ? That phrase has been in my head for years.....

Brian :)

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm always looking for new ways, What's Ian Kirby's method?

Mike

Tony has shared the book title. It is on p. 81.
Simon

[Mike Henderson]

he wrote an entire book on it. The complete dovetail: handmade furniture’s signature joint

I have that book! Read it years ago. I'll go back and review it. Thanks.

Mike

[I went and reviewed Kirby's technique. I prefer mine. I think it's faster. For anyone who has the book, it's page 81 (in the first edition).]

[John C Cox]

Ah- I like this. I do know that some advocate paring chisels be ground to low angles and I know that Rob Cosman advocates going as low as 17º at least for softwoods. So you may have answered my question Mike. Perhaps paring vs chopping has more to do with the angle of the grind given your point of the durability of the edge. The harshness of striking with a mallet vs the gentle push of the hand dictates the grind which defines the action of chopping vs paring.

Dave,

It's a dance.....

You adjust the edge geometry to work with the chosen technique and your chisel in hand... But you also adjust technique to work with a known good edge geometry for the chisel in hand....

For example - if you don't know what a particular chisel likes regarding setup for chopping and your technique is pretty good - the simplest thing is to just increase the micro bevel angle (or convex grind at the tip) until the edge holds up...

It's kinda the same with paring... You can reduce the bevel until you have trouble with the edge chipping or folding for a given technique... But within that given "Technique" includes whether you pare straight across end grain or kinda try to whittle it down at an angle and also how large of a chip you take.. Cutting straight across end grain generally requires a little more bevel angle than if you can pare at an angle or pare long grain..

But the technique is also critical.. Pry or twist while paring and you just ruined the fine edge. Scrub walls or the bottom of a mortise to pop chips out and there goes the edge on your mortise chisel..

But if you can't get good results and others can with the same setup - it's worth looking at whether you are really doing things "the same"... For example - your edge is failing and theirs is not... Are you using a 2lb engineers hammer and they are using a 14oz wood mallet? Are you giving it a good hard whack and they are giving it more of a solid tap... -Are you twisting or shifting at the bottom of the cut? Are you using a straight bevel and they are using convex? Are you sharpening on diamond plates (very hard) and they are sharpening on water stones and then stropping(fairly soft)... Etc.. What is really different?

[Mike Henderson]

It occurred to me that some people reading this thread my not know why you don't make your first chop on the gauge line. The next picture demonstrates the reason.
381177

When you chop down, the chisel opens up a "V" shaped channel in the wood. If you start on the gauge line, the back of your cut will no longer be on the gauge line but will be past it. Some people refer to this as "Bruising the line."

If you start off the gauge line, into the waste, it doesn't matter if your chisel opens up a V and is past where your put the bevel edge - as long as you're not so close that you push the gauge line back.

Once you clean up that initial cut, you can make your next cut on the gauge line and the side towards the waste will give way because it's thin.

Mike

[Edwin Santos]

Hi
I'm in the fretsaw camp. Neither way is wrong. The KC saw is a beautiful tool, a real pleasure to use.

When using the fret saw, here's a tip I got from David Barron. Orient the board so the show side (outside of the joint) is toward you when you are sawing the waste. If your cut goes errant, it will usually be on the back side, so this way the error if any, will not be visible, or at least be less visible. Of course the goal is to saw level so your cut on the back will match the cut on the front, but as the Canadians say, we're human, eh.
Edwin

[Edwin Santos]

I learned to do DT's from a Frank Klausz video on drawer making (also pins first). I've done them that way for >20 years. His reason for leaving the waste is it supports the cut from the other side, make a clean endgrain result. I agree and this has been my experience, too, case in point, what Mike is describing. Some will blame it on a dull chisel, IME it will happen right off the stone.

That being said, I often will saw out the waste in hardwoods or thick TS, but only because it saves time, not because it results in a better dt.

Lately I've really like using a 7° bevelled FT rip blade to cut the tails on the TS, then I chisel out the pins by hand. REALLY speeds things up on a big job if you're not opposed to the hybrid approach ;-)

I recommend getting the Klausz video just for another perspective.

Ever see Frank Klausz saw out the dovetail waste with a big huge bowsaw? Quite a sight. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFqY73lelq8
I took a class with him once, and over the course of it he yelled at all of us, sometimes in Hungarian. But I liked him anyway, and I certainly learned a lot.
Edwin

[Mike Cary]

I just picked up a new knew concepts fret saw. Cut one with it, chopped the other. The baseline on the sawed one was flawless the chopped one I bruised it. Chopped too close, too hard, took too big of a bite. Left just a little waste with the saw, it gave way before the wood bruised. I know this is fixed by good technique but I like idiot proofing my work when I can. It’s necessary when you’re an idiot.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Personally i find it quicker and easier to saw out the waste then to chisel it all out, only a clean up pass with the chisel from each side and done.

[Frederick Skelly]

So I ordered a Knew Concepts Mk-IV fretsaw. I went back and forth between getting the Mk-III that most of you have vs the Mk-IV. I asked KC Customer Service for advice and they emphatically recommended the heavy duty Mk-IV for dovetails. It costs $6 more than the Mk-III. The Mk-IV blade swivels 360*, which I'm not sure is as big an advantage as it sounds, but we'll see. But it is also more rigid, which I like. According to Highland Woodworking, the Mk-IV weighs in at 8oz compared to the 5 oz Mk-III. So that's a lot of extra weight, relatively speaking. Guess we'll see.

I'll post a short review after I try it out.

Fred

[Dave Zellers]

Dave,

It's a dance.....

Thanks John- I appreciate that. I'm holding back because I feel like my question falls into the realm of hi-jacking the original purpose of the thread. But I do appreciate and understand your thoughts.

[Derek Cohen]

So I ordered a Knew Concepts Mk-IV fretsaw. I went back and forth between getting the Mk-III that most of you have vs the Mk-IV. I asked KC Customer Service for advice and they emphatically recommended the heavy duty Mk-IV for dovetails. It costs $6 more than the Mk-III. The Mk-IV blade swivels 360*, which I'm not sure is as big an advantage as it sounds, but we'll see. But it is also more rigid, which I like. According to Highland Woodworking, the Mk-IV weighs in at 8oz compared to the 5 oz Mk-III. So that's a lot of extra weight, relatively speaking. Guess we'll see.

I'll post a short review after I try it out.

Fred

Hi Fred

I am sure that the new frame is a good one. Better? I do not know. The old frame is rigid enough. What is more relevant is how you use the saw. Technique trumps extreme tension.

Hold and use it like you would a dovetail saw, that is, very lightly and let the weight of the saw do the work. Be gentle - never force the cut - that will bend the blade and force it off line. The aim is to saw with the blade kept as straight as possible. Cut on the pull.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Ranck]

I have the new one (Mk-IV) and am still trying to figure out if there is something wrong with it. I have to loosen the adjustment knobs as far as they will go and the tension still pulls the blades out of the holder. I've gone back to using my coping saw for now until I can sort out if there is a manufacture flaw or if it is user error (more likely).

I do like the finish on my older (knew concepts) coping saw over the Mk-IV. The coping saw is an anodized process, the Mk-IV is too heavy paint.

[Patrick Chase]

I am sure that the new frame is a good one. Better? I do not know. The old frame is rigid enough. What is more relevant is how you use the saw. Technique trumps extreme tension.


This is particularly true of a fretsaw, where the tension is limited more by the blade attachment than by the frame, which brings us to...


I have the new one (Mk-IV) and am still trying to figure out if there is something wrong with it. I have to loosen the adjustment knobs as far as they will go and the tension still pulls the blades out of the holder. I've gone back to using my coping saw for now until I can sort out if there is a manufacture flaw or if it is user error (more likely).

Fretsaw blades weren't really designed to be used at high tensions. There's only so far you can go with a simple friction-based retention mechanism like that. If you did somehow manage to tighten the plungers down far enough then the next thing to fail would probably be the blade itself. With that said you should probably make sure there isn't any grease or oil on your blade or plunger ends that could be degrading the coefficient of friction.

If you need that sort of tension then a coping saw is arguably a better tool for the job.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Fred

I am sure that the new frame is a good one. Better? I do not know. The old frame is rigid enough. What is more relevant is how you use the saw. Technique trumps extreme tension.

Hold and use it like you would a dovetail saw, that is, very lightly and let the weight of the saw do the work. Be gentle - never force the cut - that will bend the blade and force it off line. The aim is to saw with the blade kept as straight as possible. Cut on the pull.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you Derek. I appreciate the tutorial and I'll heed your advice.

Best regards,
Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

This is particularly true of a fretsaw, where the tension is limited more by the blade attachment than by the frame, which brings us to...



Fretsaw blades weren't really designed to be used at high tensions. There's only so far you can go with a simple friction-based retention mechanism like that. If you did somehow manage to tighten the plungers down far enough then the next thing to fail would probably be the blade itself. With that said you should probably make sure there isn't any grease or oil on your blade or plunger ends that could be degrading the coefficient of friction.

If you need that sort of tension then a coping saw is arguably a better tool for the job.

Thanks Pat, I always appreciate your thoughts.

Hey, just to clarify, before they shipped I called and specifically asked if I had ordered the wrong tool (e.g., if the Mk-IV wasnt really intended for woodworkers), or too much tool (overkill for the job). The mfgr strongly recommended the Mk-IV. It was a grand total of $6 more, so he wasn't "upsizing" me or anything.

But this will be interesting. EVERYONE who has the current model just loves it as-is. Pat, you've done product development - could they have maybe improved (or over-improved) a saw that was already at its peak? I agree with you - I sure don't ever expect to need the additional 14 pounds of tension the new version can supposedly handle.

We'll see, huh?
Fred

[Pat Barry]

Thanks Pat, I always appreciate your thoughts.

Hey, just to clarify, before they shipped I called and specifically asked if I had ordered the wrong tool (e.g., if the Mk-IV wasnt really intended for woodworkers), or too much tool (overkill for the job). The mfgr strongly recommended the Mk-IV. It was a grand total of $6 more, so he wasn't "upsizing" me or anything.

But this will be interesting. EVERYONE who has the current model just loves it as-is. Pat, you've done product development - could they have maybe improved (or over-improved) a saw that was already at its peak? I agree with you - I sure don't ever expect to need the additional 14 pounds of tension the new version can supposedly handle.

We'll see, huh?
Fred

For $6 you have to buy it. It isnt worth discussing.

[Frederick Skelly]

For $6 you have to buy it. It isnt worth discussing.

Thanks Pat. That's really where I got to. :)

[Patrick Chase]

Hey, just to clarify, before they shipped I called and specifically asked if I had ordered the wrong tool (e.g., if the Mk-IV wasnt really intended for woodworkers), or too much tool (overkill for the job). The mfgr strongly recommended the Mk-IV. It was a grand total of $6 more, so he wasn't "upsizing" me or anything.

The extra stiffness certainly isn't going to hurt you, and the other refinements are probably worth the $6 regardless, so I don't see how you're going to come out behind here.



But this will be interesting. EVERYONE who has the current model just loves it as-is. Pat, you've done product development - could they have maybe improved (or over-improved) a saw that was already at its peak? I agree with you - I sure don't ever expect to need the additional 14 pounds of tension the new version can supposedly handle.

I've certainly seen that happen in the past, but I doubt it in this case. Usually when products truly go backwards (as opposed to not improving enough to justify the upgrade) it's a result of "value engineering"
, but if anything the Mk IV redesign probably added a bit of cost to the saw. Unless you're absolutely obsessed about weight I think you'll be happy.

One other remark about the Mk IV: The main change they made was to thicken the plate from which the sawframe is machined, and stiffness in the side-to-side axis (perpendicular to the frame's "flat plane") is roughly proportional to that thickness cubed. While the new saw probably won't improve real-world tension all that much, it will feel stiffer side-to-side. Of course you should never be applying loads in that direction anyway and its stiffness shouldn't matter, but some have complained about it in the past.

[Jim Koepke]

The extra stiffness certainly isn't going to hurt you

So far a single blade in my Knew Concepts saw has lasted longer than any three blades in my old fret saws. Under tension seems to be more of a hazard for the blades than for them to be tightened to stiffness.


it will feel stiffer side-to-side. Of course you should never be applying loads in that direction anyway and its stiffness shouldn't matter, but some have complained about it in the past.

If the blade is turned 90º in the frame wouldn't a bit more frame stiffness in that direction be a good thing?

jtk

[john zulu]

It comes to effort and saving your edge for something else. I did chop vs sawing. The noise from chopping....... Sawing was no brainer. Then I clean up the final bits with chisels.
Not all things can be cut using fretsaw. Like huge beams. Drill out the waste then chop again.

A good fretsaw is a big difference compared to a poor one.

[Patrick Chase]

If the blade is turned 90º in the frame wouldn't a bit more frame stiffness in that direction be a good thing?


No, because you shouldn't be pushing the blade into the work hard enough for that to matter. "Hold the saw like a little bird", "let the teeth do the work", etc etc.

Mythbusters did an episode specifically about this in the context of the KC fretsaw a while back. Admittedly they aren't woodworking authorities, but they did a good job of showing that in the hands of a skilled user the side-to-side stiffness doesn't matter.

[ken hatch]

The one advantage a fret saw has over a coping saw is the fret saw blade is thinner and is easier to fit in the saw kerf. Other than that, unless I'm missing something, the coping saw is faster and easier to use. The better option than either coping or fret is the TFWW 12" bow saw. Its blade is thinner than a coping saw blade, I've yet to find a saw kerf it will not fit in easily, it has a longer stroke and a more aggressive cut than either a fret saw or coping saw. Small dovetails with a fret saw are OK but once the dovetail is larger than that of a small box the TFWW bow saw is the better tool.

ken

[James Pallas]

I usually chop. I sometimes saw and extra kerf or two on wider tail recesses. I do have both coping and fret saws to use if the work should require it for some reason. I find I tend to saw when the wood is either soft or hard and brittle. I've thought about getting a TFWW bow saw but that thought doesn't enter my mind frequently enough to require any action.
Jim

[Jeff Ranck]

Fretsaw blades weren't really designed to be used at high tensions. There's only so far you can go with a simple friction-based retention mechanism like that. If you did somehow manage to tighten the plungers down far enough then the next thing to fail would probably be the blade itself. With that said you should probably make sure there isn't any grease or oil on your blade or plunger ends that could be degrading the coefficient of friction.

If you need that sort of tension then a coping saw is arguably a better tool for the job.

Good call on the oil, etc. on the plunger ends. It wasn't so much that I felt I needed more tension, it was the fact that I have everything loosened up as far as I can, and I still get the blade popping out of the holders when I flip the lever. As I haven't ever owned a fret saw before of any stripe, I'm a real novice when it comes to using and adjusting them. It just seemed weird to have to adjust it as far as it would go and I still had problems getting the blade to stay without coming out. The original blade came out of the saw at one end as I was sawing and so ended up bent and had to be discarded. The replacement blades wouldn't stay with the original settings, so I loosened up as far as it would go and if I'm *real* careful and flip the lever *real* slowly, I can get the blade to stay in until I start sawing. Maybe tonight I'll spend my shop time taking the thing apart and seeing if I can see anything wrong with it.

[Rob Luter]

I don't do a lot of dovetailing, but I've always sawn then chopped. I saw a technique recently that used brad point or Forstener drill bits to remove the bulk of the waste. It looked like it went fast.

[Tony Wilkins]

After struggling to saw out waste with my KC 3” fret saw, I’d gone to chiseling it out. Then enter this thread about the same time I was doing some dovetails. I got out the Gramercy 12” bowsaw i got recently to try sawing the waste again. It wouldn’t fit into the kerf of my dovetail saw. Was I doing something wrong?

as far as the KC fret goes, it cuts slowly and I break blades often. I’m sure it’s user error but I just haven’t developed the touch with it.

[Patrick Chase]

After struggling to saw out waste with my KC 3” fret saw, I’d gone to chiseling it out. Then enter this thread about the same time I was doing some dovetails. I got out the Gramercy 12” bowsaw i got recently to try sawing the waste again. It wouldn’t fit into the kerf of my dovetail saw. Was I doing something wrong?

Was it a western or Japanese saw? If Japanese then that's unsurprising. If Western it probably depends on what blade you use in the bowsaw. I doubt you could have done anything to influence it though.



as far as the KC fret goes, it cuts slowly and I break blades often. I’m sure it’s user error but I just haven’t developed the touch with it.

What woods and how thick? Also, what blades and where do they break? I don't have that problem with the Pegas blades that KC recommends, though I've certainly broken other types.

[Tony Wilkins]

Was it a western or Japanese saw? If Japanese then that's unsurprising. If Western it probably depends on what blade you use in the bowsaw. I doubt you could have done anything to influence it though.



What woods and how thick? Also, what blades and where do they break? I don't have that problem with the Pegas blades that KC recommends, though I've certainly broken other types.

The saw is western: Bad Axe 12” .02” thick hydrid DT/tenon
wood = sugar pine 3/4” thick
i have been using the Pegas blades I got with the KC and they break at the end.

[Derek Cohen]

The saw is western: Bad Axe 12” .02” thick hydrid DT/tenon
wood = sugar pine 3/4” thick
i have been using the Pegas blades I got with the KC and they break at the end.

Tony, if you are breaking blades - especially given the other items - then it is down to your technique. I can only imagine that you are forcing the cut and may be doing so with a too-tight blade. You really need to just practice horizontal sawing, with the lightest of grips, and let the saw teeth do the cutting under their own weight. Gently.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

Tony, I don't think you mentioned how many teeth you have on the blade your using/breaking. I use a skip tooth and like Derek just mentioned a vary light touch. You might want to try a blade with different teeth?