what is the best way to make this cut

[Bob Cooper]

i need to make a very clean cut for the top of these bench legs -- big tenons. The wood is 4x5 oak. i'm thinking bandsaw but i'd really like them to be as clean as possible and try not to have any gaps when i cut a mortise for the top. I don't have a shoulder plane to clean tighly in the corners. I do have some nice chisels though. 381006

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

On table saw - place your leg flat and start cutting.
Ed

[Tom Bain]

There are so many different ways to cut those big tenons, and you will probably get a lot of different answers. My suggestion, if you want the cheeks and shoulders to be as clean as possible with little or no hand-tool clean up required ... is to use a plunge router, preferably with a spiral carbide bit. You can clamp a stop to the board that the router base will ride against to set the length of tenon, and then the plunge depth sets the thickness.

[Simon MacGowen]

As suggested above, leg flat on the tablesaw, plunge router, or a dado blade.

I would cut the mortises first, however.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

For large tenon shoulders on those bench legs, the tablesaw with a crosscut blade, a crosscut sled (assuming you do not have a slider), and depth stop is the way to go. Make sure that the legs are parallel all round before you do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wayne Lomman]

Tom's idea is good. Make sure your stock is accurately thicknessed. Do the whole lot with the router. This way you are moving a light machine and the heavy leg and top are stationary on the bench. Doing it on the table saw is heavy work. Cheers

[Mike Cary]

You can make a simple tenon jig out of plywood. Cut the sides standing up and shoulders lying down. Glen Huey uses a jig regularly, should be able to google it.

[Bob Cooper]

Plunge router sounds perfect...I hadn’t even thought of that. I though about the crosscut sled and table saw but saw concerned about dealing with something so heavy and depth of cut

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bob

I would not use a router for the shoulder cut. You are cutting into end grain, and it will be more difficult to control the cut with a router than with a table saw. You can remove the cheek waste with the router, but do the shoulders first with the tablesaw.

You could even do the cheeks on the tablesaw. They do not need to be ultra smooth. They just need to fit firmly.

These were the Jarrah legs on my bench. The shoulders were cut with a tablesaw. The cheeks were removed on a bandsaw.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench2_html_m4e747793.jpg

Here is another way. The example is the end of the bench (3 1/2" thick European Oak, where a tenon is made for a breadboard end ...

Shoulders cut on a table saw ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_2fde45c5.jpg

Then used a wide chisel to split the waste off ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_15ae5232.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_59a20e44.jpg

Then used my old Stanley #93 (perfect for a 1" deep tenon).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_m3c64c719.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench3_html_719494e7.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[andy bessette]

Use a sharp marking knife and chisel to define the finished cut line. Then cut the rest away to that line using any means you like..

[Grant Aldridge]

I like to cut shoulders on the table saw and cheeks on the bandsaw. Many ways to skin that cat though, use whichever you're most comfortable with

[Bob Cooper]

ok...so if i'm going to cut the shoulders on the table saw i assume i'd just use my normal cross cut sled. Hard for me to see how you could cut the cheeks on a tall leg on a tablesaw. Seem like cutting the cheeks on the bandsaw would be easy but since the joint will be visible as seen from the end of the bench i want to try and do this w/o any gaps showing...which will be a first attempt for a guy that typically just builds cabinets. i guess the correct way would be to cut it close and then clean it up/make it fit perfectly via a plane/shoulder plane...which i don't have. But i do have chisels...recently bought never used.

[Grant Aldridge]

If your bandsaw is tuned up with a good blade I don’t know why you think there’d be any gaps. If it’s not then spend some time tuning it up and setting the fence to the drift angle then go to town.

ok...so if i'm going to cut the shoulders on the table saw i assume i'd just use my normal cross cut sled. Hard for me to see how you could cut the cheeks on a tall leg on a tablesaw. Seem like cutting the cheeks on the bandsaw would be easy but since the joint will be visible as seen from the end of the bench i want to try and do this w/o any gaps showing...which will be a first attempt for a guy that typically just builds cabinets. i guess the correct way would be to cut it close and then clean it up/make it fit perfectly via a plane/shoulder plane...which i don't have. But i do have chisels...recently bought never used.

[Wayne Lomman]

Doing it with a router is simple. The jig you make to set the length of the tenon just needs zero clearance stops on either side so that there is no break out. This is how you do random angled tenon for stair hand rails where the rail might be 10 or 12 feet long. Comes out perfect every time and you don't have to steady a heavy timber. Cheers

[johnny means]

Am I the only one who thinks expansion and contraction are bound to be a problem here.

[Dave Richards]

Am I the only one who thinks expansion and contraction are bound to be a problem here.

Nope. I was just thinking the same thing and wondering why the tenons are exposed.

[Warren Lake]

if you can cut the cheeks as shown on the table saw then just cut the whole thing put dadoe blades in fast and consistent

[Bob Cooper]

well i can definately move those legs in so that that mortise isn't exposed...in the original design those legs are pulled in 12" but i cannot afford that kind of overhang.

let me ask you this though...if you think there's a wood expansion issue here wouldn't there be one on any kind of tight mortise/tenon? i've never cut any...maybe they just aren't so tight that its' not an issue

if i do this then cutting this on the tablesaw and bandsaw i think is the quick way to get it done.

[Bob Cooper]

Doing it with a router is simple. The jig you make to set the length of the tenon just needs zero clearance stops on either side so that there is no break out.

OK...Wayne...i'm not following. My thoughts were to just attach a template on the end of the post the same width as the tenon. Then have a straight bit with a bearing on it that is on the collet side if the router and just cut down in stages until i went down the length of the tenon. So my router is resting on end of the post the entire time. i'm not sure what the stops are for that you're mentioning.

[Dave Richards]

let me ask you this though...if you think there's a wood expansion issue here wouldn't there be one on any kind of tight mortise/tenon? i've never cut any...maybe they just aren't so tight that its' not an issue

The tenon would swell in the mortise a little although the effect would be less dramatic than on the whole leg because it would be smaller. The main thing is that it looks like you intend the legs to be flush with the end of the bench top. The top won't expand and contract in its length but the legs will expand and contract across their width so the two won't remain flush even if they start out that way.

[Warren Lake]

you dont build stuff flush you leave a reveal, the top should over hang and the mortise stopped the rail as well is shown flush in the drawing and should be inset

[Wayne Lomman]

381116
Bob, you work with the leg laying flat on your bench. I have attached a mud sketch of how the jig is constructed. You do one side of the tenon at a time. This is why it is important to have accurately thicknessed timber. It is designed to us a simple straight cutter. The edge of your router base plate rubs against the fence. The router sits on the face of the stops. The stops are wide to give plenty of support for the router. Set the length of the stops so that they are flush with the end of the post. This means it is easy to set up for every post without measuring every time. When you start machining, work from the end of the timber back to the fence so that you always have material to support the router.

As I have already said, this is a jig I have used for any long awkward stock requiring a tenon or lap joint. You only need 3 pieces of scrap with one straight edge on each piece and it is done.

With regard to the shrinkage discussion, it presents the same issues as a breadboard end which doesn't seem to bother a lot of people. Cheers

[andy bessette]

OK...My thoughts were to just attach a template on the end of the post the same width as the tenon. Then have a straight bit with a bearing on it that is on the collet side if the router and just cut down in stages until i went down the length of the tenon. So my router is resting on end of the post the entire time...

No. You would not want the router balanced on the end of a tenon.

[Bob Cooper]

you dont build stuff flush you leave a reveal, the top should over hang and the mortise stopped the rail as well is shown flush in the drawing and should be inset

ok...Dave/Warren...i totally get that and typically i don't try and build anything that mates w/2 surfaces being flush. But in this case i'm following a design by Chris Schwarz...see the picture below. You can see how he does in fact have the front of the legs flush with the front of the bench...same thing w/his stretchers. So when i shortened the bench i just removed the overhang and had it flush on 2 sides.

in the end...it's a workbench and i hope it looks well used (beat up) and not pristine so it may not matter too much but i appreciate the feedback and questions from you guys.

[Bob Cooper]

Wayne...ok, that makes perfect sense and a whole lot more stable than what i was thinking. picture was worth a 1000 words.

[Dave Richards]

There are times it makes sense to put the leg flush with the edge of the top as in the case of a traditional workbench as you show, Bob, but that's at the front edge of the bench which you have long grain above the leg. You don't want to do that at the end because as I said, the top won't move in that direction, at least not nearly as much as the leg will expand across the grain.

[Tom Bain]

381116
Bob, you work with the leg laying flat on your bench. I have attached a mud sketch of how the jig is constructed. You do one side of the tenon at a time. This is why it is important to have accurately thicknessed timber. It is designed to us a simple straight cutter. The edge of your router base plate rubs against the fence. The router sits on the face of the stops. The stops are wide to give plenty of support for the router. Set the length of the stops so that they are flush with the end of the post. This means it is easy to set up for every post without measuring every time. When you start machining, work from the end of the timber back to the fence so that you always have material to support the router.

As I have already said, this is a jig I have used for any long awkward stock requiring a tenon or lap joint. You only need 3 pieces of scrap with one straight edge on each piece and it is done.

With regard to the shrinkage discussion, it presents the same issues as a breadboard end which doesn't seem to bother a lot of people. Cheers

Yes, this. It’s not the fastest way to make the tenons, but it will leave you with very clean shoulders and cheeks. It’s also very easy to dial in the thickness by adjusting the plunge depth. You can make a test tenon first to make sure the fit is how you want it, and once the plunge depth is set, voila.

[Bob Cooper]

i guess the one area you do by hand is cleaning up the corner...right at that inside corner?

[Tom Bain]

i guess the one area you do by hand is cleaning up the corner...right at that inside corner?

With Wayne’s jig there should not really be any cleaning up required. You can route slightly into the jig on either side, just make sure the jig stock is thicker than depth of cut as Wayne put in his drawing.

[Wayne Lomman]

Tom is right. The edges of the jig are sacrificial, just not too much or you lose support area. No hand cleaning required. And yes this is not the quickest way to tenon, but it works with minimal equipment on site for modifications to components and is a handy technique for heavy and/ or large timbers. Cheers

[Derek Cohen]

I would not have a through mortice for a bench (as in the Chris Schwarz's version of a Roubo bench). This is subject to expansion and contraction, and what you see is the tenon either projecting through the top and needed to be trimmed, or the tenon contracting and leaving a hole that fills with sawdust.

My Roubo (built 6 years ago over 8 weekends) uses blind mortices. These are dry but pinned. The bench top is 3 1/2" thick and 22" wide x 78" long European Oak. It is bloody heavy and not going anywhere. The reason for pinning is simply to add a little insurance, but it is not needed. No glue because I want to be able to remove the top is we ever move. No drawbore since this would be difficult to undo. Pins (dowels) are safer.

A solid base is more important that through tenons. The tenons on my bench were going to be 2" in length, but in the end I reduced them to 1". This has been absolutely fine. The bench is rock solid, and I do a lot of hand planing on it.

The Jarrah base is also heavy and has 5" x 3 1/2" legs ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/DodgedaBullet_html_m1634618c.jpg

Early photo of the bench top with blind mortices. Nice and clean! No tenon protrusions! :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/OhSoclose_html_m481b1ef1.jpg

My recommendation is to rethink your mortice and tenon joinery. And, again, do not use the router for the tenon shoulders. Use the table saw to establish the shoulders.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wayne Lomman]

Derek, I'm curious as to why you don't recommend cutting the tenon shoulder with the router. Cheers

[andy bessette]

WL--table saw and bandsaw are much quicker.

[Wayne Lomman]

WL--table saw and bandsaw are much quicker. Yes, as I said above, the router jig method is not the quickest. It does work on heavy timber with little effort which is the point. Cheers

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I'm curious as to why you don't recommend cutting the tenon shoulder with the router. Cheers

Wayne, it is not simply that the router is slow and inefficient, but it is also vulnerable to tipping and gouging surfaces. The table saw will crosscut to depth and do so straight and true (no waste in the corner to remove). You can register the length of the tenon very easily, which will enable precisely coplanar shoulders - that is much more important than the smoothness of the cheeks. The tablesaw is simply the most efficient method for large legs.

The bandsaw (it appears you have one) is then set up to rip the cheeks. If you go blind mortice and tenon as I suggested earlier, then this is a simple matter as the tenon only needs to be 1" - 1 1/2" long.

The mortices can be cleared with a router. That is the only job here for it. Don't use it to level the cheeks - that would be like a canon in place of a fly swatter. Rather use hand tools to finesse the fit - rasps, files, rabbet planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

This!!!!!

381153 My excuse for buying one was this exact procedure.

Also, I would think it better to capture the tenon by putting shoulders on all 4 sides.

[Bob Cooper]

ok...thanks to all...very instructive to me to think thru the different ways to doing something that seems pretty simple.

One point of clarification is that all the mortises in Chris' plan are blind...none are thru. His tenons do run the entire width of the leg but the side of the leg in his design is no co-planer w/the top. When i eliminated the overhand i left the tenon just like he had which in turn made it visible. I was doing this more for looks than anything but based on this conversation i'm going to make but a smaller 1/2" shoulder on that exposed side. Not shown here but i should probably move that leg in so that it's not flush w/the side as well

Chris drawbores his legs and that's my plan. i am planning on gluing these in as this bench is pretty much being made for a specific location and is against a wall so hopefully i'll never need to dis-assemble it and move it.

Derek...that's a beautiful bench...totally a mystery to my how you cut those dovetails where your end vise it....but one day i'll get there.

My current plans are to use a twin screw vise as a face vice and an inexpensive wood vice for an end vice. Originally the plans were for the benchcraft scissor leg vice but the more i thought about the more useful i thought a twin screw vise would be.

[Bob Cooper]

figured i'd follow up. Well i decided to cut this on the table saw and bandsaw and i think it turned out great. Both my tablesaw and bandsaw are new...finally upgraded some mediocre equipment. So i had to build a new cross cut sled and that slowed me down a little but hey now i've got a nicely tuned sled. I also decided to make the tenon so that you do not see it from the side and i also put a shoulder on one side...it still left a very large tenon and allows me to get the side of the leg as close to the plane of the benchtop as i like w/o you seeing the tenon.

Anyway...here's a picture.

[andy bessette]

BC--attaboy.

[Derek Cohen]

Good work, Bob!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wayne Lomman]

Derek, the jig doesn't work like you suggest at all. It is neat, dead accurate, never causes gouging and needs no hand work to finish it. Nothing wrong with doing the job on a table saw and bandsaw though. Cheers

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Wayne

Can you say more, perhaps demonstrate the use of your jig?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wayne Lomman]

Derek, I can only refer you back to the details in my earlier post. I don't do video etc. If no-one wants to use the concept, that is ok. What concerned me was that perfectly good knowledge that is not the property of any one person could get so easily discredited. I did not invent this style of jig. I don't own any right to it. It would be wrong and selfish to fail to pass on this collected knowledge that is temporarily mine to use. Cheers