smci f41 jointer weight

[John Welty]

Hi
I am thinking of buying a used smci f41 16" jointer located several states away. The price is very good so I'm willing to take a chance on the thing.
My problem is
Cant really find a weight on the beast.
Anyone know how hard it would be to remove the tables on a parallelogram type jointer?
It's a three phase, any idea if a static type converter would work on a 6hp 3 phase? Or how hard it would be to find and replace the motor with around a 4- 5 hp single phase? Standard motor bases on Smci tools? I have traded motors from 3 to single phase on my table saw and Planer, they had standard size bases so not much of a problem.
I looked at the Smci site for it and the manual is not the best, thats being generous.
I have a trailer that will take 1000 lbs and can puts parts in the back of my 1/2 ton truck so I can move quite a bit of total weight if parts can be be spread around some. And much easier to put into my shop if parts are off to lighten it up around between truck and trailer.

Any help or ideas??

[Martin Wasner]

My guess would be around 1000# If you can find the weight of a new one, you'd be in the ballpark for weight. I don't like maxing out trailers.

Swapping motors would probably be a headache and more expensive than ruining a vfd. Euro motors are weird everything.

I personally wouldn't remove the tables unless absolutely necessary.

[Jeff Heath]

Forget about a static phase converter. They can ruin a 3 phase motor. Your options are a VFD, although you'd need to find one rated at 12 hp, as they derate at 2 to 1 for single phase to 3 phase control. A 10 hp might work, but I wouldn't. A rotary phase converter is your best bet. You'll need a 10 hp unit. I built mine for $250, and another $100 or a 10 hp Baldor 3 hp motor. If you are patient, I frequently see RPC's for sale for a few hundred bucks, depending on size. I paid $700 for my other 20 hp RPC, which is a brand new American Rotary CNC balanced RPC, from a guy on Clist who bought it and never took it out of the plastic wrap. They are out there.

Is it belt drive or direct drive? Belt drive motors are easy to swap. Direct drive......forget it. Besides, why would you want to ruin a good machine by going single phase. 3 phase machines are so much smoother and better. Finding a RPC is the clear choice. It's a one time expense that opens up future 3 phase machine purchases. I actually pull single phase motors off machines and replace them with 3 phase motors. They are that much better.......and 3 phase machinery is always cheaper, because 90% of the buyers are under false pretenses about how easy it is to acquire 3 phase power off of single phase household current.

I own 2 VFD's for 2 different machines, my Oliver woodworking lathe, and my 2"X72" belt grinder that I built. They are perfect for variable speed control.

[Peter Kelly]

If you want to attempt moving it yourself, rent a truck with a lift gate. That machine has some feet underneath so you should be able to drag it around with a pallet jack. I think Penske's 24' options have gates far that size are rated for 2,500lbs.

I can tell you that metric single phase motors are very difficult to source so I wouldn't bother with changing it out. Per above, VFD would be the best choice if you only have single phase power.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Forget about a static phase converter. They can ruin a 3 phase motor. Your options are a VFD, although you'd need to find one rated at 12 hp, as they derate at 2 to 1 for single phase to 3 phase control. A 10 hp might work, but I wouldn't. A rotary phase converter is your best bet. You'll need a 10 hp unit. I built mine for $250, and another $100 or a 10 hp Baldor 3 hp motor. If you are patient, I frequently see RPC's for sale for a few hundred bucks, depending on size. I paid $700 for my other 20 hp RPC, which is a brand new American Rotary CNC balanced RPC, from a guy on Clist who bought it and never took it out of the plastic wrap. They are out there.

Is it belt drive or direct drive? Belt drive motors are easy to swap. Direct drive......forget it. Besides, why would you want to ruin a good machine by going single phase. 3 phase machines are so much smoother and better. Finding a RPC is the clear choice. It's a one time expense that opens up future 3 phase machine purchases. I actually pull single phase motors off machines and replace them with 3 phase motors. They are that much better.......and 3 phase machinery is always cheaper, because 90% of the buyers are under false pretenses about how easy it is to acquire 3 phase power off of single phase household current.

I own 2 VFD's for 2 different machines, my Oliver woodworking lathe, and my 2"X72" belt grinder that I built. They are perfect for variable speed control.

De-rate is actually 1.73 : 1 (square root of 3). So, by that standard you'd need a 10.38 hp VFD. Not many that size I'd bet? So, next standard size up is still 15hp.

Reason for the de-rate is that power in must equal power out. So, if you output 6hp at 230VAC/3ph at a tad less that 20A., then the input side of the VFD at 230VAC/1ph has to get 6Hp too, and that draws a bit over 30A (to get the same power). The VFD components must be sized for the higher 30A.

Were it mine, I'd swap to a 5hp 230VAC/1ph motor - - IF it was a belt drive.
If direct drive, I'm with Jeff - VFD or converter (and I'll stay out of the converter debate).

....Not really about moving it, but that part is fairly easy if you bring an engine hoist.

[Peter Kelly]

SCM jointers are belt drive. The mount positions for the motor and pulleys will be metric.

[Rod Sheridan]

I wouldn't take the tables off.

It's a jointer, you don't need 6 HP at all.

16" jointers run fine on 3 HP or 4 HP.

You should be able to purchase a 3 HP VFD with single phase input for a reasonable amount. Just program the VFD for 3 HP output.............Regards, Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

Shipping weight on an FS41 Elite S is 1470lbs. I had it delivered by a frieght truck that had a lift gate.

I don't believe it's an easy swap to a single phase motor, the switches (four of them on my machine) are designed for the motor that comes with the machine, so you'd have to change all of them as well.

I bought a rotary phase converter for another machine in my shop, I'd venture a guess that buying a rotary phase converter for the machine you have in mind would probably be a wash cost wise or possible cheaper than swapping to a single phase motor.

SCM quoted me the price for their current single phase motor and it was IIRC $2500.

MY RPC is super quiet, I dont even notice that it is on when the DC and machine are running. The one three phase motor I have is considerably quieter than the two single phase motors I have of a similar size.

[Peter Kelly]

https://www.partspronto.com/MachineDocs/F410%20%20OPS%20MANUAL.pdf

An F410 is 750kg / 1,653lbs without the mortising attachment.

[Jeff Heath]

I wouldn't take the tables off.

It's a jointer, you don't need 6 HP at all.

16" jointers run fine on 3 HP or 4 HP.

You should be able to purchase a 3 HP VFD with single phase input for a reasonable amount. Just program the VFD for 3 HP output.............Regards, Rod.

I respectfully disagree. I have a 7.5 hp motor on my 16" Yates American. I frequently face full width boards, and can take very heavy cuts without the machine even noticing it. If you're using the 16" jointer to edge joint 8/4 lumber, it hardly matters, but if you're surfacing wide boards with it, 3 hp is not going to allow that machine to be utilized to it's fullest capabilities. It'll certainly work, but not optimally. The manufacturers engineer these machines to have the correct power, and SCMI got it right with a 6 hp motor. I had a 16" machine with only a 5 hp motor on it, and I could not take the surfacing cuts I now do with the 7.5 hp motor.

Not arguing with you here, Rod, just sharing my daily experiences.

[David Kumm]

You can find either a 10 hp vfd that can be derated or a 5 hp single phase input 5 hp output for less than $500 now. That is what I'd do until a used rpc shows up. Jack Forsberg over at canadianwoodworking.com can set you up if needed. Dave

[John TenEyck]

I took the tables off my FS35 in order to move it down into my basement shop. Its not something I recommend if you can avoid it. The bolts holding the tables on were bedded with epoxy or some type of permanent Locktite type product. I got them loose, but thought more than once they were going to break during the process. I would rent a larger trailer.

John

[Bill Dufour]

The bolts holding the tables on were bedded with epoxy or some type of permanent Locktite type product. I got them loose, but thought more than once they were going to break during the process. I would rent a larger trailer.

Probably should have heated them with torch to about 300F and remove while hot. Of course this will burn paint and could catch sawdust on fire.
Bill D.

[Chris Padilla]

I respectfully disagree. I have a 7.5 hp motor on my 16" Yates American. I frequently face full width boards, and can take very heavy cuts without the machine even noticing it. If you're using the 16" jointer to edge joint 8/4 lumber, it hardly matters, but if you're surfacing wide boards with it, 3 hp is not going to allow that machine to be utilized to it's fullest capabilities. It'll certainly work, but not optimally. The manufacturers engineer these machines to have the correct power, and SCMI got it right with a 6 hp motor. I had a 16" machine with only a 5 hp motor on it, and I could not take the surfacing cuts I now do with the 7.5 hp motor.

Not arguing with you here, Rod, just sharing my daily experiences. I have an FS41-Elite from Minimax and for sure, the motor is not larger than 5 hp 1-phase (likely smaller but don't recall sitting here thinking about it) and the journal holds 3 Tersa blades. I'm only a hobbyist but I've never had it bog down in either jointer or planer mode FWIW. I run mostly maple and walnut through my J/P.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mine has the same 5hp~ motor, I’ve tajen some pretty heavy cuts with the full capacity of material and it doesn’t bog even mildly.

[Rick Fisher]

Normally you would want the single phase motor to be the same amperage as the 3 phase your replacing, you would wire L1 and L2, leaving L3 empty.. A 3hp single phase would make sense.

How sharp you keep the blades is a big deal to HP needed on a Jointer. If the machine has a Tersa head and you don't mind paying for fresh knives, 3hp will likely serve you well. If the knives are gib style and you plan to change them every 3 years.. well ... 3hp will get weaker and weaker ..

I would run it off a VFD or some other phase conversion method.

[Jeff Heath]

Not saying 5 hp isn't good. I'm saying 3 hp is not enough. That's the comment I replied to. 5 hp will get you there. I upgraded to 7.5 hp because I have my own sawmill, and run a lot of slabs, full width, and prefer to remove a lot of wood in one pass vs. multiple passes. 8' long 8/4 and 10/4 slabs that are 14" to 16" wide are heavy. Nice to have, but not necessary. I do not think a 3 hp motor is enough for a 16" jointer doing this type of work. My only point.

I hope that clears up what I was intending to say.

[Rick Fisher]

Jeff I agree ..

[David Kumm]

Metric frame motors are also harder and more expensive to source. Swapping to a NEMA motor involves changing pulleys, belts and cobbling up the mounts. Stay with VFD. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Metric frame motors are also harder and more expensive to source. Swapping to a NEMA motor involves changing pulleys, belts and cobbling up the mounts. Stay with VFD. Dave

In some instances. I have a griggio 16" jointer that was run off hydraulics, 5hp Baldor bolted right to motor mount, new pulley and belts and it was unamishized.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jeff, that makes sense to me as well. I completely understand the need for larger motors in many situations.

I do also take heavy cuts but I normally work at a slow feed speed setting of 6m/min. But I can see where full depth of cut and fast feeds are going to need considerable hp to let the motor work like that all day.

[Martin Wasner]

, new pulley and belts and it was unamishized.

I have a new word! Haha

[Jeff Heath]

Jeff, that makes sense to me as well. I completely understand the need for larger motors in many situations.

I do also take heavy cuts but I normally work at a slow feed speed setting of 6m/min. But I can see where full depth of cut and fast feeds are going to need considerable hp to let the motor work like that all day.

Brian,

What I didn't say above, also, is that I'm frequently working with slabs that exceed the width of my 16" jointer. My woodmizer has a cut capacity of 26" between the guides. I cut a lot of slabs at 1/2" shy of that, and will run them over the jointer with the rabbeting ledge removed. Leaves me a 9" section to clean up by hand. Those suckers weigh a couple hundred pounds, so I want to get there in one pass, if I can. 1/8" to 3/16" full width is not unheard of for me, so I go slow. Infeed and outfeed roller tables help to play "catch." Also helps that my 28 year old son is very strong, too.

I really miss my 24" jointer.

Not the typical use for everyone here, and I get that. I have a drying shed full of slabs like this. My best sellers.

[John TenEyck]

Brian,

What I didn't say above, also, is that I'm frequently working with slabs that exceed the width of my 16" jointer. My woodmizer has a cut capacity of 26" between the guides. I cut a lot of slabs at 1/2" shy of that, and will run them over the jointer with the rabbeting ledge removed. Leaves me a 9" section to clean up by hand. Those suckers weigh a couple hundred pounds, so I want to get there in one pass, if I can. 1/8" to 3/16" full width is not unheard of for me, so I go slow. Infeed and outfeed roller tables help to play "catch." Also helps that my 28 year old son is very strong, too.

I really miss my 24" jointer.

Not the typical use for everyone here, and I get that. I have a drying shed full of slabs like this. My best sellers.

Then you really need a 5 HP motor on it. I have a 3.6 HP motor on my 14" FS 35 J/P. I cannot take a 1/8" pass with it in planer mode w/o stalling it. The motor just can't handle that deep a cut at the approx. 18 fpm feed rate. 1/16" or a little more is all it can handle. I had a lengthy discussion here where folks said 3 HP should be plenty, how MiniMax never under powers their equipment, etc. Well, I've only got one piece of MM equipment and I can say for sure that it's under powered, and that includes with brand spanking freshly sharpened knives in it. The motor has been to the shop for a new set of capacitors and bearings, and a thorough checkup. It's running up to snuff; it just doesn't have enough power. MM now puts 4.8 HP motors on even their 12" J/P. Also keep in mind that a spiral head takes more power than straight knives.

John

[Christopher Charles]

Hi all,

There's this same machine available near(ish) to me; also 3 ph and 6 hp. I am interested but this string gives me pause as it would need a ~12+ HP VFD (=$$$) or a RFC. Any resolution for the OP or other thoughts would be welcome.

Also, there are no electronics/electric planer lift, but the planer feed speed is switched, so I don't know if that would affect the ability to use with a VFD.

[Aaron Inami]

You can get a 7.5HP "single-to-3phase" VFD for just under $700

https://www.ato.com/7-5hp-single-phase-to-three-phase-vfd

This will work just fine for a 6HP motor. It is the "3-phase-to-3phase" VFDs that you need to de-rate (essentially getting a 2x VFD size for the motor HP). Keep in mind that the VFD needs to be wired directly to the motor itself. It does not work as a normal phase convertor wired to the input of the machine itself (which has a variety of low voltage and other types of power circuits). This means you need to rewire/integrate a lot of the controls on the machine with the VFD (unless you just want to use the VFD itself to control the motor alone). Requires reprogramming of the VFD to respond correctly to your start/stop buttons of the machine and will not work properly with stuff like variable feed rate DC motors.

If you want to have 3-phase on the input of the machine, it is best to go with a rotary phase converter or a Phase Perfect unit (much more money).

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Aaron, this is helpful. I'm unsure if the J/P has as separate feed motor, which would considerably complicate.

[Bill Dufour]

Motor will probably be standard IEC size. Not hard to find a similar NEMA motor and drill weld some new mounting points. Pulley may need to be bushed or bored to fit. Problem can be the shaft size is not alway correct for the frame size. The frame size designates shaft height but not diameter.
bill D.
https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf

https://www.baldor.com/~/media/files/brands/baldor-reliance/resources%20and%20support/backcover.ashx

[Bill Dufour]

I have no idea if taper lock pulleys from Europe are the same as USA ones. I was able to source a new shaft taper portion to mate with a 1967 pulley for a motor swap.

[Christopher Charles]

Hi all,

FWIW, the machine has a separate feed motor, which would require a second VFD. That would push the conversion over $1K based on a quote from Jack Forsberg (who was super helpful). Current prices on an rfd or phase perfect (both ~$2k) would make sense if I would be adding more 3-phase tools, but that's also not in the cards right now. So am going to have to pass on this one. I will give a shout out to Mitch at Coast Machinery in Vancouver BC who was really responsive and patient with a bunch of questions.