JR, need your input

[Martin Wasner]

What's your take on this thing?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeyCgPDfIqc


One popped up for sale semi locally for $40k


One downside I see, that thing takes up an acre of floorspace.

[peter gagliardi]

Are you getting into the flooring business Martin? That is a flooring endmatcher, though it could probably do other things- let me guess, door rail coping?
I have seen them from 25k on up. I wanted one a while back, but did nothing about it. If your going for flooring endmatching, the throughfeed machine is the best option.

[Martin Wasner]

Are you getting into the flooring business Martin? That is a flooring endmatcher, though it could probably do other things- let me guess, door rail coping?
I have seen them from 25k on up. I wanted one a while back, but did nothing about it. If your going for flooring endmatching, the throughfeed machine is the best option.

Door rail coping. Though when the moulder gets up and running I could do flooring, though I don't really think I could get lumber cheap enough.

It's probably way more than I can justify. Space and operating cost are probably too high. Different story if I started making doors for other shops again, but I haven't taken on any of that work in a long time and it'd take a while to ramp that up.

[peter gagliardi]

I don't know the specs on that machine, but typically flooring, even chopped up box store type short parts are quite a bit longer than most door rails. Have you checked minimum length specs?
I do believe that is quite overkill for your intended use, but maybe big industry is using these, or something like them.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't know the specs on that machine, but typically flooring, even chopped up box store type short parts are quite a bit longer than most door rails. Have you checked minimum length specs?
I do believe that is quite overkill for your intended use, but maybe big industry is using these, or something like them.

The video shows some pretty typically sized rails going through.

The manufacturer's website is pretty useless.

[Justin Ludwig]

There was a unique door machine on Craigslist not too long ago for 8k. For just making doors, it’s a lot cheaper and only takes 1 unskilled worked to knock out all your door parts.

[Martin Wasner]

There was a unique door machine on Craigslist not too long ago for 8k. For just making doors, it’s a lot cheaper and only takes 1 unskilled worked to knock out all your door parts.


I'm not a big fan of the Unique setup. I looked at those originally, but you're limited by what you can fit between the spindles. Most of the time, it's not an issue, but if you have 50" between spindles, and a 108" rail for a big paneled end, you're back to setting up a shaper if one isn't already.

I think the PMK is likely the best option for me, but the moving carriage is kinda dumb. The work piece shouldn't move, the heads should move like the one in the video. For the same reasons I'm not a fan of the unique, it's a bear to keep a big chunk of wood to move smoothly through the machine. There's plenty of big honking linear bearings that you could use that would be way over engineered for the couple hundred pounds of motor and spindle you'd have hanging off of them.

[Bill Space]

I am always the last to know....BUT...who the heck is JR? :confused:

[Martin Wasner]

I am always the last to know....BUT...who the heck is JR? :confused:


J.R. Rutter. He runs a door shop in Washington state. He's my go to guru for door questions and wacky door building ideas.

[Bill Space]

Got it! :)

[Darcy Warner]

DET, they are everywhere, usually cheap and great space hogs.

[Martin Wasner]

DET?

Extra characters

[peter gagliardi]

Double end tenoner. Cabinet sized would be millbury, or powermatic. Full size- american, oliver, greenlee, crescent, wadkin, newman, etc....

[Darcy Warner]

Those are single ends though.

[Mel Fulks]

Those are single ends though.


Then single end tenoner, they are around and not expensive. I've used a number of them ,the Greenlee was a fine machine ,and newer than some others. The one double end Ive seen was a huge machine on the second floor ,they had to get an engineer to beef up the floor .And the building was built as a factory.

[Mark Bolton]

Single end and double end tenoners are like dinosaurs in todays shops. I have known several shops to buy them so cheap for a single job and then scrap them because they cant dump them to someone.

The machine posted is running door parts. Not flooring. I dont get it?

I dont understand the drive to resurrect antiquated machinery other than for fun, nostalgia, or because its in such phenomenal shape that its a rare bird and still viable.

Most single end tenoners I see make me think of someone with a railroad cap running them walking around with a pump oiler flipping up oiler ports to squirt a few drops of oil in.

They surely make money. But gosh. The video smokes any single or double end tenoner ive looked at.

[Mel Fulks]

In some shops they are not needed ,but I've worked in commercial shops that made entry doors fairly often making tenons on a table saw. That left some other project waiting for a table saw. If every shop wanted one they would not be cheap!

[Jared Sankovich]

DET, they are everywhere, usually cheap and great space hogs.
Unless you were making identical doors how is a DET faster than a SET or shaper for that matter?

Setup times for every different length part would be huge.

[Mel Fulks]

The table arms are adjusted by motor and by hand. Machine table is continuous belt

[Darcy Warner]

Hmmmm, if a DET is a dinosaur, why the heck are multiple companies still making them? They can pound out parts fast.

Single end tenoners are great window and door making machines. I much prefer using one vs. a sliding table shaper for tenon work.

[Joe Calhoon]

The Randomat in the video according to the website is made for coping cabinet door parts and end matching flooring with the ability of quick change profiles. I could not determine if it cuts the parts to length of if you have to pre cut to length.

Huge difference between old school single and double tenoners and modern tenoners. In modern day tenoners there are many different types depending on the work to be preformed. Some just end cut and tenon or cope, others are track fed and can cope , profile edges,run panels and square cabinet doors. Most of the newer ones have some type of quick setting and fast change over tooling and the old ones made to run a lot of production with the tooling change time consuming.

[Martin Wasner]

Pretty sure it's not sizing

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Joe 's descriptions of the the machines in general. But I disagree with the results I've seen from quick change machines. It can have bad consequences. Sales people all yelling "my job first". Too many guys using the machine and all pointing fingers at someone else for jumbled tooling etc. ,add in cell phones and you've got big problems. The old operators had no such problems and refused to comply with stupid "right now" orders, and would over rule the
management for the good of the company. Quick change is the main reason moulders are torn to pieces and have to be replaced so often, and sometimes the company owner doesn't know the machine has been trashed until the operator has quit.

[Martin Wasner]

I agree with Joe 's descriptions of the the machines in general. But I disagree with the results I've seen from quick change machines. It can have bad consequences. Sales people all yelling "my job first". Too many guys using the machine and all pointing fingers at someone else for jumbled tooling etc. ,add in cell phones and you've got big problems. The old operators had no such problems and refused to comply with stupid "right now" orders, and would over rule the
management for the good of the company. Quick change is the main reason moulders are torn to pieces and have to be replaced so often, and sometimes the company owner doesn't know the machine has been trashed until the operator has quit.

HSK spindles make that pretty idiot proof. Release the spindle, drop in the next one, but the button to seat it, then power up.

REALLY expensive option on the PMK machine. Basically doubles the cost of the machine though.

[Joe Calhoon]

Pretty sure it's not sizing

i agree, looks like just coping. I guess the argument could be made that it would be more efficient to cut to size first using tigerstop type technology vs rough cutting to size then final sizing on the machine.

I am friends with the owner of a local cabinet door manufacturing company. For years they used a SCM double end machine for large volume orders and a SCM single end Center machine for the bulk of their work. The Center was a interesting piece of technology with the track feed and stacked spindles. Lately they put in a CNC router to size and profile assembled cabinet door edges. They have a wide assortment of machines including some Unique machines. They still use a few shapers as well.

[Martin Wasner]

I'm sure there's defecting saws that could be set up in tandem with something like this. Drop in chalked out full sticks, out comes chopped and coped rails.

[Darcy Warner]

Yeah, Dimter Opticut, belt fed to the next station.
Just set one up a couple weeks ago.

[peter gagliardi]

Single end, or double end, the process and setups are similar. They definitely are not a quick setup or changeover machine, but they can and do maintain tolerance, and are more for stock standard profile type stuff.
Shaker style square door setups, and you would only need the tenons, not copes or trim.

Undoubtedly, some of the newer machines are quicker setup, and maybe faster at part processing, but they cost a large fortune.
If you think your margins are tight now, competing with the big companies is only going to squeeze that more.

Everybody has their ideal business they want to run, mine has just never been to be a strictly parts processor,but you get stuck in the high overhead new machine game.
I prefer for myself the challenge of doing what others can't , won't or don't want to do. Much better margins, no scurrying around like a rat in a factory, and I supplement with a few key time and money saving pieces of equipment.

[Mark Bolton]

no scurrying around like a rat in a factory

That one is going on my list of stolen quotes. Priceless.

[Martin Wasner]

That one is going on my list of stolen quotes. Priceless.

It kinda hurt my tender little feelings. Mostly because no matter how much efficiency or speed comes into play, that doesn't mean I don't move my ass like let's on fire. Waiting on equipment to do it's thing is rest time. There's money to be made

[J.R. Rutter]

I've been on a little vacation and haven't looked at the forum for a while. This looks way overkill for a small shop. You are committing to double the tooling for each profile, and double the labor: one operator on each end. Now, if you only run a few profiles and want minimum wage material handling operators, then it is perfect. I know that we've chatted a bit about the whole cope first/stick second vs running sticking in bulk and running counter rotating tooling to cope. I honestly don't think that you give up much at all on total time, and tooling cost is 1/2 as much to cope on square parts with a single backer..

[Martin Wasner]

Yeah it's way overkill, I don't have the throughput to justify the cost or space. I'm just going to stick with my original plan of getting the PMK coper. I've already got the heads to do it, so it's just the machine cost, which new is about half of the cost of the Friulmac used.

That thing is pretty wicked though, and it does turn it into a complete idiot job.


Another question for you. How much better do you think the Doucet clamp is over the JLT? I'm waiting on a quote for the JLT, and got one on a Doucet today. The Doucet is about $26k to my door, the JLT should be about $24(ish). The Canadian dollar is in the tank right now, so I think it's kind of a no brainer. I know I looked one up a number of years ago and I thought it was close to $30k

[J.R. Rutter]

It has been a couple of years, but the Doucet seemed more refined: faster and smoother width adjustment, better fit and finish. The air clamps look like they stick out a bit further on the Doucet, but maybe this would let them nest in closer for small drawer face clamping, something to check. The JLT has been mostly trouble-free, but the pivot pins on the adjusting ratchet clamp adjusters have mostly broken and had to be drilled out and replaced with high strength steel screws and nuts. I got a "refurbished" unit from JLT, so it was less money, but had some miles on it and lots of mismatched and worn out parts. Not sure exactly what they actually fixed aside from making it mostly functional. I had to strip off and replace the air lines due to leaks and wear, apply UHMW tape to help with glue sticking, and rework the aforementioned pivots as they sheared off...

[Martin Wasner]

I agree the Doucet seems more refined.

Think it's worth the extra cost? I'm thinking yes since it's less than 10%.

I'm hoping to pull the trigger on it in the next month or so

[J.R. Rutter]

Sounds like a negotiating opportunity. I just took a quick peek at both web sites and it looks like current JLT clamps have nicer adjusters, though you still have the two big pins to remove and replace at each end to adjust the horizontal beam/clamp position. I just leave mine set for an average door and remove & rotate door if the top joints don't close first try. The Doucet has 30" max width, which is nice when you need it. The replaceable/adjustable clamp face pads are nice, as is the small parts extension.

[Martin Wasner]

Sounds like a negotiating opportunity.

I hadn't actually thought of that. Shame on me.