SawStop -- Between 2005 and 2011, how many "finger saves" were reported?

[Simon MacGowen]

According to the document submitted to CPSC: Over 1,300. Finger saves that happened but not reported were not included.

Source: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=CPSC-2011-0074-1106 (File: SawStop Finger Saves REDACTED 10-10-2011).

The manufacturing and education sectors accounted for the most reported saves. (I don't know any school that is still using non-SS tablesaws.)

Most reported incidents required either a bandaid, a cleaning or no follow-up treatment.

If you are interested in knowing what time an incident happened, what kind of cut was made when it happened, etc., check out the document. The spreadsheet is more easier to read.

Simon

[Mike Heidrick]

Simon, you convincing yourself to buy one?

[Jebediah Eckert]

Getting the popcorn ready........

[Simon MacGowen]

Simon, you convincing yourself to buy one?

???

I have used or owned an ICS/PCS myself for so long. It is my last saw unless and until a better saw is produced and released.

Buy another one? Some do suggest -- not me -- if you have two SSs, you are twice safe. :p

Pop corn...always ready to be made, just as is my SS feature ready to kick in action 24/7!:D

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

Have you heard the good word about our lord and savior Jesus Christ and the kingdom he's prepared for you in heaven?

[Simon MacGowen]

Have you heard the good word about our lord and savior Jesus Christ and the kingdom he's prepared for you in heaven?

Jesus Christ was a carpenter; I believe he has prepared the kingdom for EVERY woodworker.

Simon

[Martin Wasner]

You are truly daft

[johnny means]

I would bet the vast majority of "saves" get a bandaid, a new blade and brake and get right back to work with nary a thought of reporting it. I wouldn't.

[Ray Newman]

Do believe that Johnny means is onto something in Post #8, above.

I did not read the entire report. But it surely was a wake-up for me to even take more care with my SawStop ICS. Thanks for posting it.

[Simon MacGowen]

I would bet the vast majority of "saves" get a bandaid, a new blade and brake and get right back to work with nary a thought of reporting it. I wouldn't.
Majority? You may be right but you may also be wrong. No one really knows.

What we know is that SawStop will send a replacement cartridge FREE if a finger save is reported and confirmed.

Simon

[Art Mann]

That number by itself isn't too informative. All it tells me is that the Sawstop mechanism works. I already knew that.

[Matt Day]

Jesus Christ was a carpenter; I believe he has prepared the kingdom for EVERY woodworker.

Simon

Even those without flesh sensing technology? Because I like that my saw isn’t afraid of a puny little hotdog.

[Simon MacGowen]

Even those without flesh sensing technology? Because I like that my saw isn’t afraid of a puny little hotdog.

Every woodworker is every woodworker is every woodworker.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

That number by itself isn't too informative. All it tells me is that the Sawstop mechanism works.

Agreed. So the devil is in the details..which one has to download the spreadsheet or pdf to see.

Simon

[Roy Turbett]

Does the report say anything about unintended misfires? I had one after I changed blades and didn't recalibrate the brake and wonder if they counted it a "save".

[Simon MacGowen]

Does the report say anything about unintended misfires? I had one after I changed blades and didn't recalibrate the brake and wonder if they counted it a "save".

It was about finger saves, as far as I can tell from the report. If a trigger involved a misfire (that is no body part was involved with the contact of the blade), it should not be counted as a save.

If I understand it correctly, if you send in a "Save a finger" report and your cartridge, they would verify whether you are qualified for a free replacement cartridge.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

Does the report say anything about unintended misfires? I had one after I changed blades and didn't recalibrate the brake and wonder if they counted it a "save".

No, you have to send your cartridge in to SawStop so that they can analyze it. They can tell if it was a finger or something else. If it was a finger, you get a new brake.

I know. It saved my thumb. And I got a new brake (but I had to buy a new brake because I couldn't wait for SS to send me one - so now I have a backup)

Mike

[Jon Fletcher]

Satety devices do not make up for lack of commonsense and failure to pay attention. I do like splitters and riving knives on a saw. Then there are just those people that should never be around power tools. A saw stop in schools is a good idea cause most people have never operated a stationary power tool. How many people have lost fingers using a band saw? Where's the safety features there?

[Simon MacGowen]

Satety devices do not make up for lack of commonsense and failure to pay attention.

Agreed.

About bandsaw stop?

http://thepatriotwoodworker.com/topic/18047-its-here-sawstop-for-the-band-saw/

Simon

[Mike Heidrick]

Only had my ics/pcs 5hp since 2006. Not sure how long they have been selling them.

[Jon Fletcher]

Agreed.

About bandsaw stop?

http://thepatriotwoodworker.com/topic/18047-its-here-sawstop-for-the-band-saw/

Simon

Cool. For a band saw that's a good safety feature.

[Marshall Harrison]

Jesus Christ was a carpenter; I believe he has prepared the kingdom for EVERY woodworker.

Simon

Plus one on that. I just wish he would provide me with the funds to purchase a SawStop.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Jon Fletcher;2787139]Satety devices do not make up for lack of commonsense and failure to pay attention. I do like splitters and riving knives on a saw. QUOTE]

Actually Jon, in most cases they do.

Many people have had contact with a cutter prevented by a guard, that's what they're there for.

I personally had a serious table saw incident prevented by the guard on the saw. I was cutting many pieces and one began to fall off the back of the saw.

Without thinking, I reacted to try and save it. I drove my hand into the overhead blade guard so hard I thought I had broken a finger. Without the guard, my action would have resulted in serious injury or amputation.

There are many other stories from many other workers who have had near miss incidents instead of injuries due to guards.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Pretty neat...............Thanks for posting that Simon........Rod.

[Simon MacGowen]

I think that sensing tech is close to the one being developed by Whirlwind(?), which does not rely on skin contact to trigger the sawstop.

It took the Aussie 10 years to develop the blade stop. Anyone complaining about the increased cost of a sawstop feature in future saws should know R&D is a costly and risky business.

Simon

[Matt Day]

plus one on that. I just wish he would provide me with the funds to purchase a sawstop.

lol, +1!!!!!

[Simon MacGowen]

lol, +1!!!!!

I wish your wish would come true.

We all have different wishes.

I sincerely wish that he, given his carpenter's background, would help the parent company of Festool, also the new owner of SawStop, develop and extend the SawStop feature to as many as other power machines, like the mitre saws, as technologically and economically possible.

Simon

[Ray Newman]

For those not familiar with "Whirlwind", see: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/2012/

I have been reading and hearing about "Whirlwind" for several years. I like that it does not "destroy" the blade or require a brake cartridge.

I looked on the "Whirlwind" web pages -- see above link -- (update 2018) about when and if it is available and price. I did not read anything about availability. Has anyone ever heard of or seen one in use in a home/school/commercial shop?

[Simon MacGowen]

For those not familiar with "Whirlwind", see: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/2012/

I have been reading and hearing about "Whirlwind" for several years. I like that it does not "destroy" the blade or require a brake cartridge.

I looked on the "Whirlwind" web pages -- see above link -- (update 2018) about when and if it is available and price. I did not read anything about availability. Has anyone ever heard of or seen one in use in a home/school/commercial shop?

Not sure if it is still the case. Last time, I heard that the owner was trying to find an investor or investors to buy out his invention so it could be further developed/marketed as a commercial product. I have not come across any actual applications other than those prototypes he has shown. Whether or not he has approached the saw makers such as the PTI as Gass, inventor of SawStop did, I don't know.

Like the Aus. blade stop for the bandsaws, I would like to see more commercial efforts or inventions to reduce the risk of injuries for woodworkers.

Simon

[Ray Newman]

"....Last time, I heard that the owner was trying to find an investor or investors to buy out his invention so it could be further developed/marketed as a commercial product."
--Simon MacGowen

I recall reading the same about 5-6 years ago. Since then I have heard/read nothing else.

[Mike Henderson]

One problem, I imagine, is that the SawStop patents will expire in a few years and the saw companies will be able to use that intellectual property for free. I'm guessing that the Whirlwind people have patents and anyone using that technology would have to pay royalties. Better to wait and not have to pay anything.

There could possibly be some issues with the technology that we're not hearing, also.

Mike

[marty fretheim]

I wish your wish would come true.

We all have different wishes.

I sincerely wish that he, given his carpenter's background, would help the parent company of Festool, also the new owner of SawStop, develop and extend the SawStop feature to as many as other power machines, like the mitre saws, as technologically and economically possible.

Simon

I wonder if Judas "preached" to Jesus and others about their safety practices. If The Good Lord was involved in this, the technology would be free for everyone instead of a bunch of patent lawyers trying to manipulate lawmakers for their financial gain. Not that I have any problem with financial gain, but let's call this what it is.

I think the SS technology is great, in fact if I owned a cabinet shop thats probably all I'd buy. Too many idiots out there, and workers comp and OSHA will bankrupt you if your having accidents.

Personally, I have a Felder slider and that's "safe enough" for me. If there was a Sawstop like option for it I would definitely consider it. We all screw up, and it only takes a split second to end up in the ER. For the home/hobbyist I think it should be they're own choice. I'm not buying into the "burden on society" argument. All the safety implementations in the auto industry may make my commute home safer, but I'm not seeing any savings in my auto or health insurance. This isn't France. Once you opt into government sponsored health care the government expects/requires you to not get hurt. This whole Sawstop thing falls right in the middle of the left/right political mindset of government intervention. I don't think anybody here argues with the safety, they just don't want it rammed down their throat.

Marty

[Simon MacGowen]

Personally, I have a Felder slider and that's "safe enough" for me. If there was a Sawstop like option for it I would definitely consider it.
Marty

Marty,

I have never operated a slider saw and had the impression it is a very safe saw because you push the slider rather than the stock. You may be able to answer a query of mine. At another forum, someone posted a link about a Festool "warrior" and I watched one of his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplbwZdQmGk&feature=youtu.be&t=48s

I noted that even with the slider, he was still using one of his hands to push the stock through. Was that necessary or was that a normal way of using a slider? Is that how you normally do to cut narrow/shorter pieces?

The guard was high above the spinning blade unlike a traditional blade guard on a cabinet saw that covers the blade. I saw opportunities of injuries in such operation, and have since changed my view about slider saws.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I wonder if Judas "preached" to Jesus and others about their safety practices. If The Good Lord was involved in this, the technology would be free for everyone instead of a bunch of patent lawyers trying to manipulate lawmakers for their financial gain. Not that I have any problem with financial gain, but let's call this what it is.

Marty

I suppose, rightly or wrongly, everyone is just looking after their own business interests/financial gains. Manipulating lawmakers happens everyday on both sides of every major issue at stake and the government even allows (encourages?) such practice by registering lobby groups. The SawStop saga saw both sides lobbying:

"The Power Tool Institute has already invested tens of thousands of dollars this year to lobby Congress against the CPSC rule."

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/10/542474093/despite-proven-technology-attempts-to-make-table-saws-safer-drag-on

Simon

[John Sanford]

Manipulating lawmakers happens everyday on both sides of every major issue at stake and the government even allows (encourages?) such practice by registering lobby groups.
Simon

Congress shall make no law respecting ... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the USA, at least, the gov't doesn't have any choice about petitioning the Government, i.e. lobbying. And "lobbying" is a practice older than formal gov't.

It certainly would be interesting to have a better idea of how many finger saves there have been. SawStop undoubtedly knows how many cartridges it's sold, but do they have a good idea of how many of those are saves, how many are unused backups on the shelf, and how many are "whoopsie, hit a brad"?