Is this why people use mortise chisels?

[Steven Mikes]

Chopping small square mortises for my bedframe headboard bars, and this happened to my Narex chisel. Time to buy mortise chisels?

[Patrick Chase]

Is there supposed to be a picture?

[Steven Mikes]

Yes took me another minute to figure out how to upload it from the phone, sorry!

[ernest dubois]

Such a break is not a question of this chisel type or that chisel type. If this is indeed related to anything to do with the chisel itself it is likely the geometry of the bevel's grind.

[David Eisenhauer]

What bevel angle did you use when sharpening that chisel for mortise work Steven?

[Bill Houghton]

If it's a brand new chisel, you may be seeing weakness in the initial edge; or you may have just pushed it harder than it could handle. I concur with others: for the work you were doing, you might have needed a steeper bevel, or you may have been attempting to remove too big a chip.

[Steven Mikes]

If I recall correctly I set the bevel at 25° all the way to the edge, no micro bevels.

[Warren Mickley]

The reason the chisel chipped is that you gave it a force that exceeded its strength. A 30 bevel would be slightly stronger, but you must have really wrenched it or hit it off balance to cause that damage. It could also be that you hit the chisel deep into solid wood tissue, then broke it trying to extract it from the crevice. You want to be thinking finesse rather than brute force.

The reason we use mortise chisels is that the thicker blade makes for a more accurate mortise, not so much so that we can abuse the tool.

[John C Cox]

Regular bench chisels will chop mortises just fine assuming the bevels are prepared for such...

I think you have basically 4 choices here.. You can decide to do what you want....

1. If you are only doing the 1 mortise and you are mostly done - put a hefty microbevel on it (like 35 degrees) and power through.. Then clean up the edge once you are done.

2. If you are doing many mortises - and this is the first one.. Consider a convex bevel. My own tests bear out that they are much more durable than a conventional microbevel.. You will have to experiment some to get it to hold up best - but it's hard to beat a nice convex bevel for chopping..

3. Buy a different chisel that you will set up for this duty and save the Narex for lighter duty. So far - locally available hardware store fare wise, the Stanley Fat Max has impressed me with it's ability to chop mortises with a microbevel at 35 and especially so with a convex bevel. Hone the back as needed to keep the edge good and don't fear a heavy mallet... I am not implying that the Narex is unsuited for this duty - it will work fine once you get it properly set up... Just some people want to set up different things for different duty.... And 1 single hardware store chisel sets you back about $15.00....

4. Go buy a mortise chisel if that makes you happy..

Thanks

[Stanley Covington]

Of course, both of Warren's points have hit the nail on the head.

Try 30, and maybe even 35 degrees.

You didn't mention what variety of wood you were chopping.

New chisels are often a bit more brittle than the specified hardness at the extreme edge, and exhibit small fractures and/or chipping. They often calm down after being sharpened a few times. I think this is the same thing Bill said. This is not necessarily a bad thing. A new chisel that is too hard at the extreme cutting edge when new, may well improve after a few sharpenings, but one that is too soft and rolls an edge, or develops a burr, or, heaven forfend, dents in use will always be junk, unless it was burnt (lost its temper) during grinding, in which case it too may improve with a few sharpenings. Burnt cutting edges are not that uncommon in consumer-grade chisels, in my experience, but this trait is not consistent with decent quality control, and does not say good things about the manufacturer. Caveat emptor.

It is human nature to try to maximize chisel-work efficiency by driving the chisel in as far as it will go each pass. This results in the chisel becoming jammed into the wood, and putting high lateral pressure on the thin cutting edge. Wiggling and wrenching the chisel to free it will then create small fractures at the cutting edge, and chipping can easily result too.

Pay attention to the chisel's progress as it cuts the mortise, and stop short of jamming it into the wood too tightly. If you observe the pressure acting on your blade closely, you will notice that reducing your chisel's depth of penetration by 0.5~1.0 hammer whacks will make it easier to extract the chisel from the mortise each time, improving the rhythm of your work, speeding up the overall process, and ultimately extending the useful life of your cutting edges.

At one time my job required me to cut over a thousand small mortises everyday, and I learned these lessons well:
1. Rhythm is very important when you have a lot of mortises to cut;
2. Precision matters, and rhythm aids precision;
3. Consistency matters, and rhythm and precision aid consistency;
4. Like a dancer with a sore toe, a dull/chipped/poor-quality chisel is neither rhythmic, precise, nor consistent, so fettling one's chisel and keeping it sharper longer improves one's productivity (and reduces stress) significantly;
5. Using an oilpot makes it easier to extract the blade without a lot of wiggling and wrenching, and will improve rhythm, precision, and consistency;
6. Using a chisel to pry out chips and scrape the mortise's bottom will damage and dull the cutting edge quickly. Chisels are not designed for such abuse;
7. One's chisel is an extension of one's mind, so chisels have feelings too. Be kind to your chisel and it will reciprocate. An ornery chisel is as helpful as a whipped dog.

There are several different types of mortise chisels. I own and have used most of those but like the Japanese variety best. It is almost perfectly rectangular in cross section. With this design, the chisel's sides aid with aligning the chisel and cleaning the mortise's sides, significantly aiding precision and speed. Whichever style you prefer, check to make sure the blade's cross section is absolutely symmetrical across the blade's width measured from the blade's centerline, and that the angle between each side and the blade's face (flat) is less than or equal to 90 degrees. Irregularities will cause the blade to skew in the cut, gouging the mortise's sides, and making the mortise skewampus. Of course, you have seen this happen. If your chisel's blade, be it mortise, firmer, sash, butt, oire, tataki, or whatever, is not symmetrical, I strongly recommend you make it symmetrical before tackling many mortises.

The other dimension to check is the blade's width. It doesn't really matter whether the blade's cutting edge is precisely 6.00mm, or 5.96mm wide. What does matter is that the blade is EITHER the same width over its entire length, OR, that its width tapers slightly (just a little mind you) gradually being narrower near the handle than at the cutting edge. If the blade is wider near the handle, it will bind in the mortise. All is lost.

In addition, the blade's sides need to be very straight, not curved, or wavy. If the blade's sides are wavy, swollen, or hollow, it will not cut quickly and precisely, but will tilt, gouge, and bind. Adjust these dimensions if necessary.

When I was a young man, I was scolded by a old man for abusing my mortise chisels. Of course, he was gruff and abrupt, and I was prickly and easily offended, which did not help me see the error of my ways. But the undeniable fact was that, despite being blind in one eye and not able to see out of t'other, as they say, the old man still cut mortises quicker, more precisely, and with less apparent effort than I did.

I decided to test the concepts myself. If you doubt what I have written here, you would be wise do likewise. Time yourself on two series of ten mortises each, one set driving the chisel until it becomes jammed with each pass, and the second set stopping short of jamming. Sharpen the blade before starting the first set. Check the condition of your cutting edge after the first set, and take a closeup picture. Resharpen before cutting the second set. After cutting the second set, compare the condition of the two edges. Then compare the quality of the mortises. Then compare the times. All will become clear.

You should also repeat this test for the oilpot. You should then repeat it for a symmetrical and non-symmetrical chisel blade. Ain't science wonderful （ツ）

Two cents, and worth every penny.

Stan

[Daniel O'Connell]

use an oilpot?

[Patrick Chase]

A new chisel that is too hard at the extreme cutting edge when new, may well improve after a few sharpenings, but one that is too soft and rolls an edge, or develops a burr, or, heaven forfend, dents in use will always be junk, unless it was burnt (lost its temper) during grinding, in which case it too may improve with a few sharpenings.

Off the top of my head you could also see edge-rolling at the very tip as a result of:

Overheating the tip during hardening, leading to higher-than-ideal austenitization temperature, which leads to retained austenite and reduced hardness upon quenching
Decarburization during hardening, such that the tip has lower carbon content and hardness than the remainder of the tool.
Overheating the tip during tempering, leading reduced hardness. Admittedly this is more or less the same as what you outlined, just an additional cause.

There are probably other phenomena that I'm missing. For example Narex chisels are known to be a bit soft in the tip at first, and their process should be largely immune to these, so there's probably yet another variable in play at least for them.

Admittedly all 3 of the ones I cited are most common with traditional-/hand- hardening processes. Modern vacuum and inert gas ovens eliminate decarb and control temperatures pretty well.

[steven c newman]

Or....maybe he just hit a hard knot buried down in the wood.....BTDT....why I had to resharpen that New Haven Edge Tool Co. 1/4" Mortise chisel the other day...

Some woods also hide bit of stone inside....might want to look into the hole, and see what is down there....

[Stanley Covington]

use an oilpot?

I wrote a very detailed thread here about this a couple of years ago, but it does not show up in a search. Anyone know where it got off to?

I can repost, if we can't find it, or enough people are interested, or I could or send it to you privately.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Off the top of my head you could also see edge-rolling at the very tip as a result of:

Overheating the tip during hardening, leading to higher-than-ideal austenitization temperature, which leads to retained austenite and reduced hardness upon quenching
Decarburization during hardening, such that the tip has lower carbon content and hardness than the remainder of the tool.
Overheating the tip during tempering, leading reduced hardness. Admittedly this is more or less the same as what you outlined, just an additional cause.

There are probably other phenomena that I'm missing. For example Narex chisels are known to be a bit soft in the tip at first, and their process should be largely immune to these, so there's probably yet another variable in play at least for them.

Admittedly all 3 of the ones I cited are most common with traditional-/hand- hardening processes. Modern vacuum and inert gas ovens eliminate decarb and control temperatures pretty well.

Good points. Thanks for the insight, Patrick.

[Warren Mickley]

I wrote a very detailed thread here about this a couple of years ago, but it does not show up in a search. Anyone know where it got off to?

I can repost, if we can't find it, or enough people are interested, or I could or send it to you privately.

Stan

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot

Roubo also mentions using oil or grease when mortising.

[Stanley Covington]

Or....maybe he just hit a hard knot buried down in the wood.....BTDT....why I had to resharpen that New Haven Edge Tool Co. 1/4" Mortise chisel the other day...

Some woods also hide bit of stone inside....might want to look into the hole, and see what is down there....

A very valid point. Thanks.

[Stanley Covington]

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot

Roubo also mentions using oil or grease when mortising.

Thanks Warren. Scholar and a gentleman

[Phil Mueller]

Stan, Ha! - Skewampus - I’ve been desparately searching for a word to describe some of my mortise work :D

On a more serious note, thank you for the tips on sizing up the shape of a chisel...very helpful.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, Ha! - Skewampus - I’ve been desparately searching for a word to describe some of my mortise work :D

On a more serious note, thank you for the tips on sizing up the shape of a chisel...very helpful.

Phil:

One of my Dad's (RIP) sayings. Don't hear it much anymore.

Re chisel dimensions, you are very welcome. It all makes perfect sense, but most of us, including me, don't get it until its pointed out to us.

Stan
P

[William Fretwell]

If you drop them on concrete they also chip, probably worse. Just sharpen and carry on with more chopping and less levering. Raise the angle to 30 degrees as you sharpen, it's just a tool; more than likely it will still outlast you!

[John C Cox]

I don't know of any chisels that will chop mortises at a 25 degree bevel.... Even PM-V11 calls for a steeper bevel than this...

Paring or general light duty bench work - it's probably more or less OK assuming your technique is good... Mine do better with a 30 degree microbevel for the miscellaneous general use....

[Daniel O'Connell]

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot

Roubo also mentions using oil or grease when mortising.

Ahh, I see! Paul Sellers recommends one of these for plane bodies and sawing(I generally keep a block of wax on hand for this purpose), never occurred to me to use it on a chisel though.

Thanks Stan and Warren!

[John C Cox]

An oil pot is now on my list as well...

I had problems with beeswax and canning wax rubbing off on wood and causing weird finish problems, so I quit using it.... Looking back - most likely I just used too much.. Hard to get a super thin film with a thick hard wax.... Watching people use oil on their woodworking tools on the videos - it looks like a super fine coating.. Just enough so you can see the steel darken a bit..

[Daniel O'Connell]

An oil pot is now on my list as well...

I had problems with beeswax and canning wax rubbing off on wood and causing weird finish problems, so I quit using it.... Looking back - most likely I just used too much.. Hard to get a super thin film with a thick hard wax.... Watching people use oil on their woodworking tools on the videos - it looks like a super fine coating.. Just enough so you can see the steel darken a bit..

I haven't had much trouble with that, although I've used it mostly for #7 and #8 planes when flattening or edge jointing, by the time I get around to finishing I've taken a smoother to it and I don't use the wax on smoothers.

[Warren West]

Did it chip while chopping or were you levering out waste? Bench chisels are not made for levering. I'm not 100% sure, but from the pic that bevel looks hollow ground, which will give you a weaker edge generally. A flat bevel is your friend. I know that is not the fashion though. The fashion is hollow grind and and a microbevel finished to .001 micron.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know of any chisels that will chop mortises at a 25 degree bevel.... Even PM-V11 calls for a steeper bevel than this...

Paring or general light duty bench work - it's probably more or less OK assuming your technique is good... Mine do better with a 30 degree microbevel for the miscellaneous general use....

Having different bevel angles on different chisels is a good reason to have more than one set of chisels.

My Buck Brothers chisels are beveled at ~20º for paring.

My Witherby chisels are beveled at ~30º for light mallet work.

My firmer chisels and mortise chisels are ground 30º or more depending on where they are intended to be used.

jtk

[Mark Godlesky]

I wrote a very detailed thread here about this a couple of years ago, but it does not show up in a search. Anyone know where it got off to?

I can repost, if we can't find it, or enough people are interested, or I could or send it to you privately.

Stan

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot

[Steven Mikes]

Thanks all for the great advice! I took the excuse to order the set of 3 Narex mortise chisels from Amazon :D I'll try sharpening them with a convex bevel.
The wood is Poplar btw so not too hard, after reading your comments though I'm pretty sure I was just abusing it by twisting to try and clean the bottom of the hole.

[lowell holmes]

Man, I have all kinds of old beater chisels in addition to my Lie Nielsen chisels.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks all for the great advice! I took the excuse to order the set of 3 Narex mortise chisels from Amazon :D I'll try sharpening them with a convex bevel.
The wood is Poplar btw so not too hard, after reading your comments though I'm pretty sure I was just abusing it by twisting to try and clean the bottom of the hole.

For cleaning the bottom of mortises a lock mortise or a swan neck mortise is very helpful.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

For cleaning the bottom of mortises a lock mortise or a swan neck mortise is very helpful.

jtk


Try this. Called a sokozari chisel.
https://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201212/11/05/e0248405_161205.jpg

[Todd Zucker]

Stan, how do you sharpen the sokozari, and for its purpose, how sharp does it need to be?

[John C Cox]

It must be sharp enough so that CERN calls you when they need atoms split... ;)

How do you sharpen it? That has been well covered here on The Creek... ;) ;)

[Lonnie Gallaher]

One of the things that concerned me when I first saw this post is the condition of the chisel face. It looks like it has had a lot of abuse. Here is a picture of one of my Narex chisels. Granted, it has not had much use, but this is what a new one looks like. The one in the OP's picture does not even look like it was made and machined to the quality that comes from Narex.

380852

[Robert Hazelwood]

I recently got a sokozari and can recommend it as being extremely useful for cleaning up mortises. It can flatten the bottom of a mortise, but is also useful for scraping out those stubborn bits of wood that hang in the corners. It saves the edges on your bench/mortise chisels.

I just sharpen it freehand, like it's a tiny router plane blade.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, how do you sharpen the sokozari, and for its purpose, how sharp does it need to be?

Not aware that John or anyone has addressed how to sharpen a sokozarai chisel on SMC. How many besides Brian even own one?

It does not need to be very sharp. Indeed, the steep bevel angle of cutting edge prevents it from getting ultra-sharp. The one in the picture is a common size, but they come longer/wider and shorter/smaller too.

The end-user usually modifies it for his purposes. For instance, for making shoji screen and doors with lots of small mortises, the cutting edge is typically ground down to a nub, and the bevel angle decreased until the cutting edge is quite sharp. But for most mortises, that degree of customization is not necessary.

The bottom of the foot is where most of the sharpening effort is focused, since the bevel is difficult to stone.　I think the pics below will explain how it is done.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXL7j9U-BnkU1FVvuGEZf3JgqgPnmLjkFXRsAyLz0MMyPc5UZRhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbnT19DGkqYXOpU2zLdQQBgfYBNDZwN GopK0VQ81tIgHvzvJCFhttps://www.hamono.gr.jp/images/material/E1209-m.jpg

[John C Cox]

Not aware that John or anyone has addressed how to sharpen a sokozarai chisel on SMC. How many besides Brian even own one?

I was being facetious.. ;) ;). I have only seen those in pictures....

And just when we thought the subject had been properly worked out - Stan brings us a completely new type of chisel to argue about how to sharpen...

[Stanley Covington]

I was being facetious.. ;) ;). I have only seen those in pictures....

And just when we thought the subject had been properly worked out - Stan brings us a completely new type of chisel to argue about how to sharpen...

Maybe we should have competitive bidding for the popcorn concession （ッ）

[Derek Cohen]

Not aware that John or anyone has addressed how to sharpen a sokozarai chisel on SMC. How many besides Brian even own one?

I have had this Koyamaichi (as I believe) sokozarai for several years.

https://s19.postimg.org/afpk0gc6b/Sokozari.jpg

I was a bit taken aback that it came with a hoop (since removed).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

You can absolutely mortise with a bench chisel (35*). Paul Sellers does it ALL THE TIME: https://youtu.be/q_NXq7_TILA

He also uses a paint can opener ($1?) to excavate waste.

So you know: you can still damage a narrower Narex mortise chisel if you twist it while it is buried in the wood. I have seen that happen more than once.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

So you know: you can still damage a narrower Narex mortise chisel if you twist it while it is buried in the wood. I have seen that happen more than once.

You can damage basically any chisel that way :-)

[Stanley Covington]

I have had this Koyamaichi (as I believe) sokozarai for several years.

https://s19.postimg.org/afpk0gc6b/Sokozari.jpg

I was a bit taken aback that it came with a hoop (since removed).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Wow... somebody either screwed up or was too lazy to specify the right handle.

[John C Cox]

Uh.. I think the edge might have rolled when I hammered it...

[Brian Holcombe]

You can absolutely mortise with a bench chisel (35*). Paul Sellers does it ALL THE TIME: https://youtu.be/q_NXq7_TILA

He also uses a paint can opener ($1?) to excavate waste.

So you know: you can still damage a narrower Narex mortise chisel if you twist it while it is buried in the wood. I have seen that happen more than once.

Simon

Mortising should not be done with a bench chisel in my opinion. A bench chisel doesn’t self jig like a Mortise chisel does and will likely cause the user to make mortises that need to be fixed.

Its great to keep a minimal tool kit but opting out of Mortise chisels is not the best way to achieve that.

Mortising is not easy to learn, it took me a number of years working by myself and cutting mortises by hand to Mortise with consistency and confidence. I do not think it does any service to anyone to advocate the wrong tools for the job, just makes the trying a few months or years longer.

[Simon MacGowen]

Mortising should not be done with a bench chisel in my opinion. A bench chisel doesn’t self jig like a Mortise chisel does and will likely cause the user to make mortises that need to be fixed.

Its great to keep a minimal tool kit but opting out of Mortise chisels is not the best way to achieve that.

Mortising is not easy to learn, it took me a number of years working by myself and cutting mortises by hand to Mortise with consistency and confidence. I do not think it does any service to anyone to advocate the wrong tools for the job, just makes the trying a few months or years longer.

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon

[Tony Wilkins]

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon
I am unfamiliar with Kirby’s layered approach. Can you link to it or describe it?

[Brian Holcombe]

I have cut mortises blind as well as through with both mortising chisels and bench chisels. I find that if one uses a layered approach (Ian Kirby's approach), a bench chisel works well. Also, a bench chisel can be used to define a mortise's parameter cleanly before chopping starts. Admittedly, the chisel approach may be slower.

Between mortises and tenons, I find more people struggling with sawing tenons than mortising.

Simon

Defining the perimeter is done with the gauge, not sure why a bench chisel needs to be involved in that process.

I teach people how to cut mortises and while you can cut one with a bench chisel it’s more likely to end up out of square.

Mortise chisels are longer and provide a better visual reference to square, they are deeper and provide a resistance to twisting in the cut.

There is a reason why two cultures having worked practically independent of one another for thousands of years both approach Mortising with a chisel that is nearly identical.

[Simon MacGowen]

I am unfamiliar with Kirby’s layered approach. Can you link to it or describe it?
Will dig out that for you this evening as soon as I finish a project in the shop. If I can't find that, I will do a quick write-up.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Defining the perimeter is done with the gauge, not sure why a bench chisel needs to be involved in that process.

I teach people how to cut mortises and while you can cut one with a bench chisel it’s more likely to end up out of square.

Mortise chisels are longer and provide a better visual reference to square, they are deeper and provide a resistance to twisting in the cut.

There is a reason why two cultures having worked practically independent of one another for thousands of years both approach Mortising with a chisel that is nearly identical.

Have you seen people struggling, including those with less than perfect eyesight, chopping right on the scribed lines with a mortise chisel, thereby bruising the defining perimeters? I have seen a lot with a closer visual exam.

The bruising doesn't matter if it is covered by the shoulder of a tenon, which may not be the case in a through tenon joint. I have seen unsightly joints because of that.

A bench chisel can be used in such cases to "define" the mortise dead on the scribed lines first and all subsequent chopping would be done inside the defined walls, almost guaranteeing a clean, bruise-free mortise.

There was a video series by a Chinese fellow doing lots of mortising and he did most of his chopping work sitting on a bench seat. His work was super quick. Very quick and very good mortises on the whole. However, some of the mortises could be seen bruised on the outside (show side) a little.

While Paul's bench chisel approach may not appeal to some traditionalists, it is an option, a very workable one after I tried it more than once, to those who do occasional M&T joints and don't want to get a set of mortising chisels.

All roads lead to Rome.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Found it:


http://www.rockler.com/how-to/ian-kirby-woodworking-design-hand-cutting-mortises-chisel-mallet/

This British-trained teacher may not have a following on social media like Paul Sellers, but his techniques are solid. I have found his work on dovetails the best instructional material for a beginner, even better than Rob Cosman's.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Defining a Mortise by chopping out the top with a bench chisel is a way to add room for error and has not effect on bruising which is caused by twisting the chisel or starting it crooked.

On a visible through Mortise I will usually leave a very tiny amount to pare off the sides and make for a perfectly clean Mortise.

Other than that, it takes practice to get it right much like sawing the line or other things that require skill. I adjust my technique slightly for certain work like visible through tenons.

I explain to my students that I teach them technique not perfection. Perfection is not learned immediately but takes time and practice. Hand tool work is not without struggle but that struggle is quite meaningful eventually. It helps gain a self reliance and assurance that helps make quick work that is clean in appearance.

If they have trouble seeing the lines, strike deeper lines or improve your lighting.

[Simon MacGowen]

Defining a Mortise by chopping out the top with a bench chisel is a way to add room for error and has not effect on bruising which is caused by twisting the chisel or starting it crooked.

On a visible through Mortise I will usually leave a very tiny amount to pare off the sides and make for a perfectly clean Mortise.

Other than that, it takes practice to get it right much like sawing the line or other things that require skill. I adjust my technique slightly for certain work like visible through tenons.

I explain to my students that I teach them technique not perfection. Perfection is not learned immediately but takes time and practice. Hand tool work is not without struggle but that struggle is quite meaningful eventually. It helps gain a self reliance and assurance that helps make quick work that is clean in appearance.

If they have trouble seeing the lines, strike deeper lines or improve your lighting.

No one would agrue that good practice is the key to achieving great techniques and results. If using a bench chisel to mortise is not your recommended approach or seems struggling for you (for whatever reason), you should stick to what you are comfortable with. I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique. His youtube video for anyone to see for themselves if it works for them.

You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique.

35º is a pretty steep angle for most work a bench chisel will be called upon to perform. If one keeps regrinding it for the different tasks it will be a nub before long.

Some of my first mortises were cut with bench chisels. Yes, it can be done. Is it as efficient as using a chisel made specifically for the purpose of mortising? No.

Maybe we should spend more time on how a mortising chisel can be used for paring dovetails. It can be done.

If one is in a pinch for time or lack of resources, then improvising is fine. If one wants to get on with a job and can afford tools made for the job then why do it the hard way?


You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.


Surely there are examples of dovetails cut with a two man saw. Most likely it was the right tool for the job when building a log cabin.

Again, using a tool made for a specific task will make performing that task less daunting. If my recollection is correct Steven Newman uses a large handsaw at times to cut his dovetails. One of my challenges at work was to use a hacksaw to rip a 1/8" diameter skewer, it worked fine. For those who want to know it was a way to remove a bill jammed in a bill processor in ticket vendors.

Then there was the idiot in one of my workplaces who made himself difficult for others to get along with by doing things like grabbing a crescent wrench when he wanted to drive a nail instead of walking two steps more to grab a hammer hanging on the wall.

So sure, a mortise can be made with a bench chisel. Please do not do it in my shop or within my sight.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

No one would agrue that good practice is the key to achieving great techniques and results. If using a bench chisel to mortise is not your recommended approach or seems struggling for you (for whatever reason), you should stick to what you are comfortable with. I am not here to defend for Paul but I have tried his bench chisel method (35*) (have you?) and found it a totally workable technique. His youtube video for anyone to see for themselves if it works for them.

You might prefer a Japanese saw or sonething else to cut dovetails. I have seen dovetails cut by a hack saw and heck, it was not too bad. You don't need to follow and use a hack saw, but you should not say a dovetail saw is the only right tool for the job. Unless you specify that it is the right tool for you.

Simon

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.

I have no stake in what you do or Sellers does. I’m offering input from cutting about a few thousand mortises by hand. When I write of the struggle I am writing I’m writing about the insight I’ve gained in doing this work many times and with speed and effectiveness as the goal in addition to quality.

Effective is making an average sized Mortise in 3-4 minutes cleanly and accurately so that this work does not take eons. I’ve posted videos of myself cutting mortises.

Pictures;
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/fullsizeoutput_2ad.jpeg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/IMG_6916-690985873-1505570633188.jpg

[Tony Wilkins]

Found it:


http://www.rockler.com/how-to/ian-kirby-woodworking-design-hand-cutting-mortises-chisel-mallet/

This British-trained teacher may not have a following on social media like Paul Sellers, but his techniques are solid. I have found his work on dovetails the best instructional material for a beginner, even better than Rob Cosman's.

Simon

it may be more traditional than we think. Sounds similar in some ways to a method that Adam Cherubini described in a PW article several years ago (“Advanced Chisel Techniques” IIRC). I have seen Kirby on Dovetails and it’s good stuff.

[john jesseph]

I deleted my previous message, after investigating what I appeared to be endorsing. Each time you introduce a tool to the work, it is an opportunity to ruin it. Most often a better idea to saw to the line, chisel to the line. Caveats apply. And I was violating my personal policy of not extending advice, so a generic statement will do.

Stanley, are those bottles in the middle the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating in my archaeological workshop dig.

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[Patrick Chase]

Stanley, is this the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating my archeological workshop dig.

The printing on those is identical to my bottle of camellia-scented mineral oil (which is what I believe you're referring to).

Real camellia oil is nasty stuff for tool preservation because it polymerizes and forms a thick goop. I know this because back when I started I saw all of the people recommending "camellia oil", and went out of my way to get the real thing (I checked the MSDS' for the tool-oriented stuff and discovered early on that it was scented mineral oil). Big mistake. It turns out that the people doing the recommending were all using overpriced white mineral oil.

[john jesseph]

Yes, that's it, edited for clarity. What do the bottles say? I bought one bottle a long time ago, the other came with a load of tools I bought. I ended up using it in French polishing, not on tools.

Interesting that you found and used actual camellia oil. I thought it was a somewhat common Asian cooking oil.

[Simon MacGowen]

35º is a pretty steep angle for most work a bench chisel will be called upon to perform. If one keeps regrinding it for the different tasks it will be a nub before long.


So sure, a mortise can be made with a bench chisel. Please do not do it in my shop or within my sight.

jtk

Ahh.. lunch break could use some brain.

35* micor bevel isn't hard to do at all. Free hand, of course. And before you chime in, 35* give or take...no jig please.

I welcome anyone, including Paul Sellers, with a bench chisel into my shop meaning to demo or do some mortise work. Please send any of your visitors my way if they happen to be meaning to mortise with a bench chisel in your shop! If they are British, Paul should be happy to have them.

Not within your sight. Easy, don't watch any of Paul's videos, as you can never tell if it has him mortising with a....
Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.

I have no stake in what you do or Sellers does. I’m offering input from cutting about a few thousand mortises by hand. When I write of the struggle I am writing I’m writing about the insight I’ve gained in doing this work many times and with speed and effectiveness as the goal in addition to quality.

Effective is making an average sized Mortise in 3-4 minutes cleanly and accurately so that this work does not take eons. I’ve posted videos of myself cutting mortises.



So what is your point?

The Brian's way is the only RIGHT way? Only 3-min mortises are effective or good? So for dovetails, everyone must do them in 3.5 mins as Rob Cosman did? If you have to be efficient because every job is money for you, fine; I enjoy woodworking as a hobby and speed is the least I am concerned with...though I used to be. Your insights may be good, so can be others', definitely Paul's or mine.

I don't know what tools you have or use for every job in your work. If you expect every good woodworker to be working like you, forget it. You will only be disappointed. I know people who don't have a Japanese hammer or chisels in their shops and they do good work. It will be an insult to them, I think, if I try to tell them they need a Japanese hammer to drive their wedged tenons home.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

I have actually, I don’t prefer it. I prefer to use the correct tools for the job as many craftsmen prior to myself have come to the tool for a reason.


So what is your point?

The Brian's way is the only RIGHT way?

To me, taking what one states as their preference and twisting it into them saying it is the "only RIGHT way" is a bit of a stretch and could even be construed as being a bit uncivil.

My solution to ineffective mortise cutting with bench chisels was to find some affordable mortise chisels.

For those who can not afford more than a single set of chisels, they can do what they want in their own shops. If they come to my shop to my tools and a mortise is to be chopped, they will only be offered one of my mortise chisels to do the job. If they want to drill it first, then a different chisel may be offered.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

35* micor bevel isn't hard to do at all.

Is this meant to imply everyone should have a 35º micro bevel on their bench chisels?

If not, when one wants to return this to an angle better suited to paring end grain should they just grind away a bunch of metal?

This gets back to there being more than one way to chop a mortise or to perform just about any other task in woodworking.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Mortise chisels are great. Bench chisels work ok. You do have to take some extra care. I recently made a project that I wanted 3/16 mortises. Didn't have a mortise chisel but did have a 1/4 Stanley 60. I ground the lands down and had something with narrow lands that looked suspiciously like a mortise chisel. Used it. Put it in the mortise chisel rack. I now have a 3/16 mortise chisel should the need arise.
Jim

[Simon MacGowen]

To me, taking what one states as their preference and twisting it into them saying it is the "only RIGHT way" is a bit of a stretch and could even be construed as being a ...uncivil

jtk

Please re read all his responses to see his INSISTENCE that a chisel approach is wrong. So not sure why he is close-minded here.

He isn't simply stating his preference. Me uncivil? That is overblown.

Regarding 35*, no implication there on anything. Please don't overread.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Please don't overread.

Simon

I'd ask you to do the same, you've done that repeatedly to me over the course of this conversation. I found this conversation difficult as I felt as though my words are being twisted in each reply.

You're welcome to state your option, I come to this board expecting that I can do the same.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'd ask you to do the same, you've done that repeatedly to me over the course of this conversation. I found this conversation difficult as I felt as though my words are being twisted in each reply.

You're welcome to state your option, I come to this board expecting that I can do the same.

Ok. Misunderstanding on our part. All good.

Back to the shop...house chores took longer than expected.

Simon

[Stanley Covington]

I deleted my previous message, after investigating what I appeared to be endorsing. Each time you introduce a tool to the work, it is an opportunity to ruin it. Most often a better idea to saw to the line, chisel to the line. Caveats apply. And I was violating my personal policy of not extending advice, so a generic statement will do.

Stanley, are those bottles in the middle the Sword Tsubaki that is faux camellia? I found this while excavating in my archaeological workshop dig.

380953


Yes, they are. Any gold burial masks show up in the dig? Pics please.

[Stanley Covington]

The only way to compare the performance of a beveled chisel to a properly set-up mortise chisel in cutting mortises is to own both types, and use both types to cut identical mortises in the same wood. If one has not done this simple, obvious, common-sense test, then opinions are hot air.

I have.

A well set-up mortise chisel will always cut a mortise more precisely and more quickly than a bevel chisel. It is a specialized chisel, one that doesn't work well for anything else.

You can shave with a pocket knife, or cut a shirt pattern in cloth with the same knife, even perhaps with great skill and speed, but a razor and scissors are more likely to do a better job of these specialized tasks.

Give it a try.

[Simon MacGowen]

The only way to compare the performance of a beveled chisel to a properly set-up mortise chisel in cutting mortises is to own both types, and use both types to cut identical mortises in the same wood. If one has not done this simple, obvious, common-sense test, then opinions are hot air.

I have.

A well set-up mortise chisel will always cut a mortise more precisely and more quickly than a bevel chisel. It is a specialized chisel, one that doesn't work well for anything else.

You can shave with a pocket knife, or cut a shirt pattern in cloth with the same knife, even perhaps with great skill and speed, but a razor and scissors are more likely to do a better job of these specialized tasks.

Give it a try.

I have done that, too and so has Paul as seen on his video. The bench chisel method was slower as I stated in one of my responses.

I cannot remember if Paul reached the same conclusion.

Simon

[Stanley Covington]

I have done that, too and so has Paul as seen on his video. The bench chisel method was slower as I stated in one of my responses.

I cannot remember if Paul reached the same conclusion.

Simon

Thanks for confirming. I was not being critical. I was simply concerned that others might have missed these points in the flurry of comments.

I have no doubts Mr Sellers has conducted the same test, and reached the same conclusions during his long and celebrated teaching career.

I have not seen any of his videos except those on YouTube, but judging from those I’ve seen, he tends to keep things very simple and uses basic tools instead of specialized tools. This is an admirable approach considering his video audience, and not being a tool salesman.

But judging by the tools displayed in the cabinets behind his stage workbench, he has very advanced tools at hand. I must assume that they are not just stage dressing, but he not only knows how to use them all, but does use them outside his teaching videos.

Am I mistaken?

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks for confirming. I was not being critical. I was simply concerned that others might have missed these points in the flurry of comments.

I have no doubts Mr Sellers has conducted the same test, and reached the same conclusions during his long and celebrated teaching career.

I have not seen any of his videos except those on YouTube, but judging from those I’ve seen, he tends to keep things very simple and uses basic tools instead of specialized tools. This is an admirable approach considering his video audience, and not being a tool salesman.

But judging by the tools displayed in the cabinets behind his stage workbench, he has very advanced tools at hand. I must assume that they are not just stage dressing, but he not only knows how to use them all, but does use them outside his teaching videos.

Am I mistaken?

I think you are correct. I was watching one of his videos the other day, and he stated "My plane blades are honed to 20k."
That is a far cry from what he demonstrates in most of his videos, and I think, as has been stated, he is trying to keep things simple for beginners, to get them IN the shop and working. But I have watched everything he has on Youtube at least twice, and I can't quote specific videos, but I have heard him say at least a couple of times something to the effect that you will change your perception of what sharp is as you progress as a woodworker. One of the things he advocates is hands on learning, and I think he understands that as we progress in this, we will move beyond what he is teaching and explore different techniques and tools as we see the need for them. I can tell you that I started out sharpening to around 1k and then moving to a pasted strop, but I have come to understand as I am moving forward that that will not do what I need, so I have stepped beyond it. He is sort of a mentor, because I like his "You can do this" attitude, which as a new woodworker I desperately need. But I have a brain, and no compunctions about using it.

[Stanley Covington]

I think you are correct. I was watching one of his videos the other day, and he stated "My plane blades are honed to 20k."
That is a far cry from what he demonstrates in most of his videos, and I think, as has been stated, he is trying to keep things simple for beginners, to get them IN the shop and working. But I have watched everything he has on Youtube at least twice, and I can't quote specific videos, but I have heard him say at least a couple of times something to the effect that you will change your perception of what sharp is as you progress as a woodworker. One of the things he advocates is hands on learning, and I think he understands that as we progress in this, we will move beyond what he is teaching and explore different techniques and tools as we see the need for them. I can tell you that I started out sharpening to around 1k and then moving to a pasted strop, but I have come to understand as I am moving forward that that will not do what I need, so I have stepped beyond it. He is sort of a mentor, because I like his "You can do this" attitude, which as a new woodworker I desperately need. But I have a brain, and no compunctions about using it.

I think one common cause of acrimony on this forum is the difference in attitude between those that read/comment that have lots of experience, and find Mr Seller’s methods simplistic and no longer informative, and those that love his methods and have learned a lot from him, and that will accept to comments regarding Mr Sellers but praise.

Neither is wrong. Both need to think first, then comment.

[Mike Baker 2]

I think one common cause of acrimony on this forum is the difference in attitude between those that read/comment that have lots of experience, and find Mr Seller’s methods simplistic and no longer useful, and those that love his methods and have learned a lot from him, and that will accept to comments regarding Mr Sellers but praise.

Neither is wrong. Both need to think first, then comment.
100% agree with that assessment. We all need to get along if we can.

[Mike Baker 2]

I also think that when you add in the fact that we are not face to face, but communicate by written word, that can help escalate tension through no fault of either party. If you and I are looking at each other face to face, there is alot of visual communication going on that gets lost responding on a forum, and I know that I myself have a difficult time expressing myself correctly via a keyboard.

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks for confirming. I was not being critical. I was simply concerned that others might have missed these points in the flurry of comments.

I have no doubts Mr Sellers has conducted the same test, and reached the same conclusions during his long and celebrated teaching career.

I have not seen any of his videos except those on YouTube, but judging from those I’ve seen, he tends to keep things very simple and uses basic tools instead of specialized tools. This is an admirable approach considering his video audience, and not being a tool salesman.

But judging by the tools displayed in the cabinets behind his stage workbench, he has very advanced tools at hand. I must assume that they are not just stage dressing, but he not only knows how to use them all, but does use them outside his teaching videos.

Am I mistaken?

I am no expert on Paul Sellers and never a member of his masterclasses, my understanding of his techniques or methods of work came from whatever YouTube videos I came across. So my comments about his tools and use here may not be 100% correct.

He does use the hand router (preston?) a lot in dado or tenon work. Spokeshaves, saws, bench planes and of course chisels are used in many projects. Does he use moulding planes, rabbet planes and others in his Masterclasses? Others may chime in.

My hand skills were formed before he became active in the digital world. But I like his exploration of traditional skills or his interpretation of traditional methods.

I don't like a round bevel on my chisels or blades but many have become a good sharpener because of the method he promotes. No one has turned more woodworkers into freehand sharpening than he, if you ask me. 20k? Not sure if he was referring to stropping.

Based on the YouTube videos I have seen, I can say he walks the talk and in most cases, he does not need to resort to the specialist tools seen in his background tool cabinet.

He has the full collection of the Stanleys, but does most of planing work with a #4 or 41/2.

He may be making a deliberate effort not to use specialist tools (hence a bench chisel for mortising) as many of his audiences may don't have any of them.

Simon

[john jesseph]

Yes, they are. Any gold burial masks show up in the dig? Pics please.

No gold burial masks, but there's this:

381104

Sticky note has a sloth that's saying "dolla dolla bill y'all".

[John Sanford]

For those who can not afford more than a single set of chisels, they can do what they want in their own shops. If they come to my shop to my tools and a mortise is to be chopped, they will only be offered one of my mortise chisels to do the job. If they want to drill it first, then a different chisel may be offered.

jtk

Jim, could you elaborate? I'm curious as to your reasoning and suggestions.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, could you elaborate? I'm curious as to your reasoning and suggestions.

If they wanted to chop a 1/4" mortise my mortise chisel would be used since some of my 1/4" chisels would bend or break with a heavy mallet blow. If they insisted, some of my beater chisels could hold up to the job. Most of them have handles that could cause mallet against hand epiphanies as to why a mortise chisel tends to have a larger handle.

If most of the waste is removed first at the drill press, then all that is left is mostly paring, hence something other than a mortise chisel for the job.

A current project includes the chopping of two dozen mortises. Multiple chisels were used, a 1/4" Narex mortise chisel, a couple swan necked/lock mortise chisels, a 3/4" Buck Brothers socket paring chisel and a 1/4" Buck Brothers tanged paring chisel. The paring chisels were used to tidy up after the mortise chisel was done. For trimming and paring the tenons a 1" Buck Brothers socket paring chisel was added.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Put this New Haven Edge Tool Co. 1/4" chisel to use the other day..
381731
Had four mortises to get done..
381732
Two like this..
381733
Had to make the tenons ahead of time..
381734
Used these to lay the mortises out...
381735
Until the cuts matched....by the time everything was ready for the glue up...
381736
I had all the joints fitted...
381737
Used just that one mortise chisel to chop out the holes with. A wide chisel was used to pare trouble spots for a better fit.

Radio was making more noise than I was......

[brian zawatsky]

https://youtu.be/KJUJ796jxls

382230

If you want to do the best work in the most efficient way get yourself a mortise machine and learn how to set it up and use it, them get on with making furniture.

Unless of course you prefer to waffle on about how talented you are.

Ummmm, perhaps you’re lost. This is the hand tool forum....

[Derek Cohen]

... so true and so funny! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Hennebury]

I apologize for my rudeness.