Problems assembling DC ductwork

[Chris Fite]

I don't know if this is more of a rant than a request for assistance.

I took delivery of the ductwork from Oneida for my Gorilla. I don't understand how to get the pieces to fit together. I had always thought that the crimped end of a 6 inch piece would fit into the uncrimped end of a 6 inch piece. I have managed to get about half of the system assembled, but have had to use pliers to bend the ends of the crimped sections to be able to force the crimped ends into the uncrimped ends of the next piece of piping or wye or floor sweep. Most of the pieces won't seat onto the crimped ends anywhere near to the raised collar past the crimping. I have gotten some to seat about an inch out. Fortunately, 3 to 4 sheet metal screws will hold this together so that I can make a trial fit as I go. It takes about an hour to assemble a joint, such as the 6 inch piping into a 6x6x6 wye.

I think that enough metal tape will keep the joints from leaking.

This is frustrating because the end of a pipe is the same overall diameter as the crimped end of the mating piece of the same size.

I have assembled the typical lightweight HVAC piping and components before. These slip together without a hitch. I never realized that
DC ductwork would be so different and so much trouble.

I don't suppose that I would be so annoyed and frustrated if this had come from the dollar store, but we all know that ductwork from Oneida is not cheap.

I may try slitting the ends with a jigsaw and metal cutting blade to see if I can speed up the assembly process.

This must surely be the quintessential dark side of dust collection systems. I thought that someone else would have mentioned this elsewhere, but I can find no posts about these problems and the solutions.

I sent a nastygram to Oneida about this problem. Of course, I cannot return this mess without authorization, paying return freight, and a 25% stocking fee. I am just stuck with this and will have to make the best of a terrible situation. I guess the metal products come from some chiwanese sweat shop where quality control is a foreign word. This is $900 thrown down a rat hole.

I hope that the Gorilla will at least run once this is assembled and I can test the unit.

Anyway, this will most assuredly be the last product that I purchase from Oneida.

[Jesse Cloud]

I hear you. Just finished my installation a couple of months ago. I had the same experience, some of the ductwork fit easily while other components required a lot of elbow grease to fit. I put the pieces on my bench and held one down with a band clamp while I 'cajoled' the other in place. Definitely the low point of the project. But hang in there. You will get there eventually. I was incredibly stiff and sore after manhandling the awkwardly large and ill fitting pieces up on a ladder.
If someone would write up a dummy's guide to ductwork, it would be a great service.
I have lowered expectations on Oneida quality. While my order was unusual and complex, they made a number of mistakes that cost me time and money. I appreciated the free design, but it worked out that I got way more duct work than I needed and got burned trying to return it.
On the other hand, the system finally works, and it is a delight. I would recommend waiting 3 or 4 months and then taking a second stab at it. You will see what works and what comes up short. For instance, I am still fooling with the connections to my bandsaw and miter saw, also realize I need something for hand sanding. Having said all that, it sure beats the old days and its so easy just to slide a blast gate instead of having to reconnect hoses to move from one machine to another.
So, no silver bullet, but hang in there. You will be glad you did.

[John Bailey]

This is interesting. I've held off seriously considering a new cyclone because I wanted to wait to be able to afford the good ductwork. Now, it seems there are problems with the good stuff. I know the theory purporting the drawbacks of PVC, but I've not heard any real complaints. I wonder if the less expensive PVC is really the best idea. Would be interested in any comments.

John

[John Bush]

Hi Chris,
I feel(or felt) your pain. I had the same problem, as well as reversing the flow for some of the conventional HVAC fittings. I bought a five pronged crimper(~~$20) and used it on virtually all the unions. I used pop rivets to hold the joints together, and instead of the metal duct tape I used duct sealer that has the consistency of soft ice cream and paints on with a disposable brush. I found there were lots of small air leaks, mostly around the adjustable 90deg. fittings, that were impossible to plug with tape. The sealer isn't that great looking but does a better job. Good luck, John.

[Jim Becker]

The crimper that John mentions is an essential tool for assembling snap-lock pipe...from any source. The factory crimps are not often quite deep enough and you need to be able to crimp sections that you cut...and you will be cutting duct work to fit everything properly. (Straight Cut tin snips should be on the list if you don't have them, either.)

[Gary Kittleson]

Interesting post...I'd like to hear from more people. I have just completed the system design, and am preparing to take the dive in purchasing from Ondida.

Sounds like some people have extra ducting...if you want to sell it, instead of trying to return it, let me know!

Gary

[Andy Hoyt]

Chris - I did my Oneida installation about two years ago. And I too fought the ducting nearly every step in the process. My problem was exactly what you describe, but having no experience in metal work I just chalked it up to my own ineptness. My solurion was to use needle nose pliers and do a rolling crimping thing with them.

At one point I actually had to modify my below-the-floor design because I just could not make up one connection. I used the self tapping screws and foil tape approach.

Had a clog below the tablesaw once from a thin sliver that snuck through (I now know zero clearance inserts are a must with DC systems) and getting that foil tape off was miserable.

I have since done four add ons to the system including the installation of a number of Oneida's rather expensive cleanouts. I'd encourage all of you to place some of these at key spots. For me that is next to three instances where three branches join to make one large trunk; and right near a 90 degree elbow just after the floor sweep.

I had a bunch of ducting left over after the installation too. Just saved it, and glad I did as I didn't need to buy more for any of the four add on projects.

Yup, that was a bad week two years ago, but today it feels great.

[Fred Voorhees]

The crimper that John mentions is an essential tool for assembling snap-lock pipe...from any source. The factory crimps are not often quite deep enough and you need to be able to crimp sections that you cut...and you will be cutting duct work to fit everything properly. (Straight Cut tin snips should be on the list if you don't have them, either.)

I "ditto" that remark on the crimper. When I put my system together, I found a connection or two that were "tight", but the crimp simply needed to be bent in slightly more - that is all. I, fortunately, am in a business where I sometimes need the services of one of these crimpers, so I had one handy. One thing I will add, I did have some trouble with the adjustable ninety degree elbows. Because they were new, they were stiff and didn't move freely, again, to be expected. My solution was to buy a pair of those vinyl or rubber dishwashing gloves that women use. Buy a pair big enough to fit on your hands and the gloves help tremendously with your grip on the metal and you can then orient the adjustable segments to where you need them.

[Dan Forman]

I too am getting ready for a final ok on my ducting, and would be interested in hearing anything else that would be helpful.

When you say you had ducting left over, just what does that mean? I know they only sell certain lengths, so one would expect to have at least a few cutoffs left. Were there other things as well?

Did the installation go much easier with the crimping pliers, or was it still a struggle?

Any other tools one should assemble before getting started?

Has anyone installed a floor sweep then wish they hadn't, or vice versa? I do a lot of my cleanup with the shop vac, it can get into many places my large broom can't.

Dan

[tod evans]

any time you`re working with light gauge pipe the crimpers are a lifesaver! something to think about when connecting two pieces of pipe for d/c is that any protrusion inside the pipe can and usually does catch flying debris.....once one piece is caught it will catch others untill the mass is large enough to be ripped loose by the air flow. try to keep the inside of your ductwork as smooth as possible for best performance. i`ve read several conflicting opinions on the pvc-vs-metal debate and can only say i used metal (welded together) on my system. if you opt for light ga. pipe crimpers and pop rivits are a smart move. tod

[Andy Hoyt]

... When you say you had ducting left over, just what does that mean? I know they only sell certain lengths, so one would expect to have at least a few cutoffs left. Were there other things as well?.... Dan

Dan - For the most part the ducting comes in 2 or 5 foot lengths. A post installation analysis of my design and the resultant parts list showed me that quite often it seemed a 5 footer would be spec'd even though a 2 footer would have worked. During my installation I was trying to be resourceful and used available cutoff pieces in lieu of longer fresh pieces as often as possible. The result is that I ended up with very few cutoff scraps but (as I recall) about 7 untouched 5 foot pieces of 4" and 6" diameter duct.

This shows that Oneida ignores scrap while designing. At first that ticked me off; but once I did my first addon I was grateful.

Also. I mentioned in my earlier post about installing cleanouts. What I forgot to say is that if you do get a big clog and don't have cleanouts, you will find that you have to disassemble many pieces just to get at the clog; and that was a royal pain in the neck. Hope this helps.

[Dan Larson]

I guess I must have gotten lucky. I installed an Oneida dust collection system a few months ago, using the Oneida snap-lock pipe. Can't say that it was quick and easy to put everything together, but I really didn't hit any frustrating snags either. I might also add that this was my first experience with metalworking of any type.

A few notes on my experiences:
-I had very little leftover material. Total value of leftovers was <$100, or about 10% of what I spent on ductwork. When I installed some hardwood floors in our house last fall, I had a simillar amount of flooring left over too. Maybe I just have low expectations of myself in estimating how much material to buy for big projects? I guess I prefer to overshoot a little than to be caught short.
-I made a few minor changes to the Oneida ductwork design as I was doing the installation, but their design was generally pretty good.
-All of the welds on the wye joints did leak quite a bit. I just got in the habit of sealing all of welds before assembly with silicone caulk. I know some people are weary of using any silicone based product in the shop, but I don't see this as an issue. Just be careful with it.
-Snapping together the first few pieces of 48" straight pipe was very difficult for me. I wrestled with the first one for the better part of an hour before I got it to snap together. But once I worked out a technique for doing this, it wasn't so bad.
-All of my fittings pushed together reasonably easily. Yes they were a tight fit, but I see this as being a good thing. I think I had to adjust the crimping on one of the fittings with my needle nosed pliers, but that's it.
-For joints under higher stress, I made connections with pop rivets and some super heavy-duty foil tape that I bought from McMaster-Carr. Many of the joints under less stress are held together with just the foil tape. After a few months of use, all joints have held tight.
-I hung the pipe from the ceiling with lengths of light duty chain and eye bolts. This system worked well for me. It allows for final readjustments after doing a rough install. Also isolates the system so that vibrations don't telegraph to the house structure.
-I cut the straight pipe to length with a manual sheet metal nibbler (Garrett-Wade #09T01.01). Much easier to use than tin snips.

Overall, I'm very happy with my system. It works well and no clogs to report yet. It took some time and effort to install, but it was well worth the effort and expense. I would have no hesitation in buying from Oneida again.

Dan

[Roger Bell]

Me too. I spent several exasperating days (Xmas vacation) installing mine (from Oneida). Most of the pipe went together well enough but several pieces were a real bear. I recall using a block and mallet on several occasions. My wife recalls hearing the profanity from the dedicated shop building 100' distant thru closed doors. I think that such tribulations are par for the course with "snap lock" material. If I had only known, I might have sprung for spiral, even though the snap-lock cost me $1,000. Jeez, you would think they should give you the collector for free after having bought all the metal. If you are going it alone (like I did), get ready for a continuing ordeal. I think that the only aspect of shop development I hated more was insulating the ceiling.

Ditto on the crimpers. These are a must. Ditto also and especially on the hand sheet metal nibblers from Garrett Wade. Don't even think of using tin snips or (worse yet) a jig saw trying to cut the metal. You can drill a hole in already assembled (or installed) pipe, insert the nibblers and cut the piece in two. It also helps to apply some "slipit" or other lubricant when the fitting gets rough. You have already probably figured out that it is best to fit up and seal several "subassemblies", combining two of these at a time.

I used Oneida's silicone caulk and sheet metal screws thruout. No rivets, no tape. I wanted a quick future knockdown/changeability built in....but I must say, after all the hassle, I really doubt that I will ever get motivated enough to do it over. So far so good for the system after two years. I don't think I have leaks, but the 2 hp system is so powerful for the lengths of run I have, a few leaks wouldn't matter anyway.

The bright side is the joy of having a completed, functioning system. The ordeal notwithstanding, there is no way I would EVER go back to anything less.

[Chris Fite]

I have found that going back and crimping all the crimps in the pipe and fittings again by hand will enable them to fit properly. They make a good tight fit, as you would hope. This is simply the result of poor quality control on the part of Oneida. For the expense of the ductwork, you would think that it would be crimped to some standard. But it seems to be shoved out the door to meet demand.

[Chris McKimson]

Thanks for the timely post Chris. I'm about to order my ductwork and was leaning toward the snap lock from Oneida.

Is there any reason the spiral would go together easier than the snap lock?

Chris

[Jim Becker]

Chris F, the snap lock from the 'borg and from my local HVAC supplier had the same "incomplete" crimps as that from Oneida. They don't make the 26 guage snap-lock...it's a commodity product and it's quite normal to have to use the crimping tool.

[Barry O'Mahony]

it's a commodity product and it's quite normal to have to use the crimping tool.Absolutely. It's better for the crimps to be incomplete rather than "too much". It's easy to increase the crimps a bit with the tools until they fit; it's harder to "undo" the crimp. The system assumes that you're going to tweak each connection. 'shouldn't take more than 10 minutes each one.

[Bill Lewis]

I bought most of my pipe and fittings from Oneida and installed the system about a year ago. I don't recall any of the crimp joints being a problem. Everything seemed to fit pretty well. If there were any that were too tight, I'm sure I just adjusted them with the crimpers. No big deal, it comes with the territory.

[Don Frambach]

It's kind of pricey but I went with "quick fit" ductwork. The advantage of this stuff is that it's easy to assemble and reassemble into something else. I have found necessary to reassemble portions of my system several times!

Just a thought.

Here is a link to get the stuff from Grizzley:
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/136.aspx
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/137.aspx

[Steven Wilson]

Ah the fun of working with snap lock ! When I installed my duct work I had the following items on hand.

1) air compressor
2) air nibbler
3) air shears
4) air riveter
5) air drill
6) a couple of good drill bits (for the rivets) and a drill doctor to keep them
sharp.
7) sheet metal snips
8) sheet metal crimper
9) some sheet metal screws (not many, I used rivets)
10) duct work mastic for some joints
11) silicon caul
12) spring loaded puch
13) sheet metal pipe hanger straps
14) safety glasses
15) hearing protection

The air tools (except for the riveter) were Harbor Frieght specials and didn't cost much. I assembled most transitions on the ground and then hung them up as sub assemblies. Some of the snap lock pipe needed a bit of extra crimping but it wasn't too bad. I just drilled 4 holes per join, rivited them, and then caulked. At the end of the day I used smoke to check for leaks and then sealed them up. It was fairly easy