Greetings - Making Frames by hand woodworking.

[Bob Britton]

Hi Friends:

I'm the new kid on the block around here. Let me apologize ahead of time for a bit of length on this, my first thread. I thought i'd be better to combine my words into one post rather than spread them off over many.

I'm a Director of IT by profession, but an oil painter, semi-pro, on the side. I am not an affluent man, just an average Joe trying to struggle and thrive in today's world.

I've been trying to learn how to make frames for my own paintings. Mostly because I cannot afford to buy good quality 24 carat, water-gilded close corner frames. As an unknown painter, really, I don't make enough on the sale of a painting to even begin covering the costs of quality frames. And the cheap frames from Hobby Lobby or A.C. Moore are just that: Cheap, low-quality chinese imports.

So for about a year, I've been struggling to learn how to make frames for my paintings. I have some power equipment: A Rigid Chop Saw, a Sears circular saw, a black & decker hand router/router table. I've made a couple frames, but learned pretty quick that the cheap power equipment I have is not meant to do fine woodworking, and my wife would leave me for the mail man if I went ahead and purchased quality power tools / wood working gear.

:)

My first foray into making a couple frames resulted in the realization that fine miters with rough-cut tools is not the way to make a great looking frame. And, after trying to make some corner splines, moldings, and half-lap joints with the power equipment...let's just say that my garage is covered in fine wood powder, and my wife is not a happy woman because of the wood dust covering everything!

I thought to myself: "Self, you know...they've been making picture frames since before Jesus walked on this planet...well before power tools or even electricity was even a thought!"

So here I am, looking to try and find some folks who might be willing to guide me to some tools and techniques on how I might use HAND woodworking tools and techniques to make some frames.

The kind of frame I'd like to make is basically a "cassetta" style frame. This is roughly a 5/4" x 3 or 4" length of wood, where the molding is a groove down the middle, leaving roughly about 1/2" flat raised surface on the outer edge for hand decorating, carving, and an inside 1/4" or so raised surface for a bead, double-reed, or in some cases hand-decorating.

Here's an example of a common "plein air" frame you might find in a professional art gallery today:

Frame (http://www.laframe.com/105G-35_p_1676.html)

or

Frame Like this (http://www.laframe.com/assets/images/readymade/plein%20air/corner/105g_corner.jpg)

So here's what I'm wondering:

Can someone get say a combination plane (like the Stanley #45/#55 or a Lee Valley combination plane and:

1. Groove out of a 4s basswood 5/4" x 3" (width) x 4' using the combination plane instead of using a power router?

2. Make a rabbit (rebate) using the Stanley #45 / #55 combination plane

3. Make a bead,reed on the inside edge using a combination plane?

I wish I had a mentor in the area who I could study and learn from. But basically, I'm looking to begin the learning regarding how to make the molding using planes. How do you make a wide groove when most combination planes max have a 1/2" wide cutter? Can you somehow keep laying down mutlipe grooves down the length of the board to make the hollow portion of the frame (leaving a 1/4" inside raised edige, and 1/2" outside raised edge areas along the lengths?

Why don't I stop here. I guess what I'm asking is if there's anyone who knows how to make the basic molding like this by hand, what hand planes/tools/hand routers would you recommend. I'm looking to be mentored a bit. I'm eager to learn, but at this point, I recognize I know nothing about how to do something like this by hand.

Sad thing: My Grandfather, now 99, was a master carpenter. But family issues kept me apart from him. Man, what I wouldn't give to be his student, or a student of anyone else who can teach me.

I'm not looking to become a master woodworker. Ideally, I'm simply looking to make my own frames, to hand-carve them and gild them to match my painting (as some of the artists did in the Arts & Crafts era), in order to make quality frames for my paintings.

Thanks folks. Sorry again for the lengthy message and intro. But basically, I'm hoping theres someone here who would be willing to help advise me on some of the tools/techniques to get me going.

I don't want to invest into combination planes or other tools now because I don't if that's what I need. But obviously, those moldings for those frames were made using some form of hand planes or hand routers. I'd like to figure out what I'd need to get started, then get some gear and begin the learning process. I'm not afluent at all and need to be careful with what I spent my limited $ on. Got a lot of time and a ferocious will to learn and practice, though!

:)

Please forgive me, I hope I'm not breaking the rules, but if you want to see some of my paintings, you can see them here (https://www.facebook.com/ArtistRobertPBrittonJr/). I'm just a poor guy with a dream of being full time professional artist one day. But for now, I'd be happy to simply learn how to make decent custom frames for my own personal enjoyment. (most of my paintings hanging in my house are hanging unramed because I refuse to put cheap chinese frames on them. So I hang them raw.

But I'd love to surround them with a hand-made gilded frame!

:)

Thanks again!:)

[Bob Britton]

PS. I'm a 52 year old, happily married, guy who works for a Christian Men's/Boy's non-profit. I love painting and photography, reading, jazz piano, movies, and can't believe I'll be 53 in a couple months! It was just yesterday I was a young kid with a .22 pellet rifle having fun shooting pepsi cans and reading comic books! How did I get so old!

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Bob and welcome to the Creek.

My dinner is awaiting, after that a few searches for some old posts that might be of help will be done.

As to finding someone to mentor you many hear are willing to help in any way they can. But instead of waiting for everyone to go through the process of asking if you are in their area, it might be a good idea to go to your profile page and enter in your location. At the top of the page on the right there should be a "My Profile" link.

jtk

[Bob Britton]

Thank you jk. Much appreciated. Updated my profile. I live in Elma ny a rural suburb of buffalo ny. :)

[Phil Mueller]

Hello Bob, and welcome. Thanks for sharing your paintings...I like the work very much.

After looking at the frame examples, I think I would look at it as an assembly, rather than a single piece of wood. In other words, get a 1/2” or whatever thick piece and glue a 1/2” x 1/2” piece to the outer edge. Then use your router to create the 3 bead profile in a 1/4” or so piece of stock and then glue it all together. I would create the 3 bead profile on the edge of a wide board (safer that way), and then cut it off with your skill saw against a guide.

This would also allow you to carve or decorate the outer piece separately...so if some mistake were made, it could be redone prior to gluing it on.

I guess what I’m saying is to think of it in components, rather than a single piece. Given you will be gilding the piece, any gaps or issues with the glue ups would be covered. And to that point, if the miters aren’t perfect, just fill with putty, sand well, and gild over it...no one will know. Something to think about anyway.

[Bob Britton]

Hello Bob, and welcome. Thanks for sharing your paintings...I like the work very much. After looking at the frame examples, I think I would look at it as an assembly, rather than a single piece of wood. In other words, get a 1/2” or whatever thick piece and glue a 1/2” x 1/2” piece to the outer edge. Then use your router to create the 3 bead profile in a 1/4” or so piece of stock and then glue it all together. I would create the 3 bead profile on the edge of a wide board (safer that way), and then cut it off with your skill saw against a guide.

I guess what I’m saying is to think of it in components, rather than a single piece. Given you will be gilding the piece, any gaps or issues with the glue ups would be covered. Something to think about anyway.

I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a good idea actually. Ps. Thanks for the kind words about my paintings.

[Mel Fulks]

Bob, I enjoyed the paintings and will look at them again tomorrow.

[Jim Koepke]

I've been trying to learn how to make frames for my own paintings. Mostly because I cannot afford to buy good quality 24 carat, water-gilded close corner frames.

[edit]

My first foray into making a couple frames resulted in the realization that fine miters with rough-cut tools is not the way to make a great looking frame. And, after trying to make some corner splines, moldings, and half-lap joints with the power equipment...let's just say that my garage is covered in fine wood powder, and my wife is not a happy woman because of the wood dust covering everything!

Your paintings are enjoyable works and deserve a well made frame.

Frames can be built up by making different parts of molding and then gluing them together. They can also be made by making long pieces of molding and then turning it into a frame, take your pick. One of the problems with frames assembled from multiple pieces is they can cause cracking if the pieces move different with changes in weather.

To make a frame like the one in your link, you will need a few different skills and a few hand tools. The corner of the frame is carved, the rest could be done with planes.

The Stanley #45 comes standard with a 1-1/4" blade. Not sure what the biggest blade is for the Veritas Combination Plane.

Here are a few old posts that may offer some ideas for your framing set up:

First is one on a shooting board of mine being rehabilitated. Part of the rehab was to make it an ambidextrous shooting board so things could be worked left or right handed. This can be helpful when working for tight miters:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777-Oh-Shoot&styleid=3

Interesting in checking the link there is a scrap of molding cut for a different project. There is a funky video of it being made on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apLzrpsdcK0

Here is a short post on mine about making stopped grooves and beads:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242089-Stopped-Grooves-amp-Dadoes-with-a-Plow-Plane&styleid=3

This is a little bit more difficult than just getting a combination plane to work which can be a challenge in itself.

Another post that may help is on blind nailing:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232798-Blind-Nailing&highlight=

This post involves using molding on a cabinet. To me molding and frames are very much alike. A frame is just some molding around a painting.

My suggestion would be to start with some simpler designs and work your way up. You can also start with a much smaller investment that way.

Some very nice frames can be made with simple gouge work accenting the planes work.

It is fairly easy to turn a plane cut reed into a rope or a ball chain with a gouge of similar size to the plane blade.

jtk

[John Schtrumpf]

Here's an example of a chopped bead on an antique frame:

380155

[Bob Leistner]

A miter trimmer is something that you should look into. Lion was an old high quality maker that show up for sale often. I believe that Grizzly is selling one as well. It will give you the kind of corners that you see on pro made frames.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

So here's what I'm wondering:

Can someone get say a combination plane (like the Stanley #45/#55 or a Lee Valley combination plane and:

1. Groove out of a 4s basswood 5/4" x 3" (width) x 4' using the combination plane instead of using a power router?

2. Make a rabbit (rebate) using the Stanley #45 / #55 combination plane

3. Make a bead,reed on the inside edge using a combination plane?

I wish I had a mentor in the area who I could study and learn from. But basically, I'm looking to begin the learning regarding how to make the molding using planes. How do you make a wide groove when most combination planes max have a 1/2" wide cutter? Can you somehow keep laying down mutlipe grooves down the length of the board to make the hollow portion of the frame (leaving a 1/4" inside raised edige, and 1/2" outside raised edge areas along the lengths?


You can do as has been suggested, and build up the frame, or you can simply cut all of the grooves and beads on one board. There are tradeoffs either way (a mistake at the end of the latter means you have to start over from the beginning).

You can cut multiple grooves next to each other to make a wider groove. The combination plane has a fence, and by adjusting the fence, you can adjust where the groove is. A combination plane could work for rebates, I usually use my rebate plane.

The 45 will work for beading. I do not believe it comes with reeding blades. The 55 probably does. Some here have posted about using a scratch stock. If you do a search for it that may be a solution for you. I think they usually work best along the edge, and not so much in the center of a board, but I have never used one so could be wrong. You could also look for a good wooden molding plane with the profile(s) you like. If you want to bead in the center of the board, you would clamp a guide. When I have done stuff in the middle of a board, I have used the combination plane.

The mitre problem you have can be handled with a good mitre box, and a shooting board and hand plane. If you are making small frames, a low angle block plane may work. You may need something larger. I would probably try cleaning up the rough mitres you are getting off your power tools with a plane before buying a mitre box, since you already have the power tools. I don't know exactly what your problem is, but I have seen some folks use tape at the cut to help improve the edge of the cut.

Be warned though, if you head into hand tools, it is hard to stop. You will also find it involves a lot of skills you may not have. A plane requires sharpening, which requires stones. You need to hold the work securely, so you need a good bench. If you buy used tools (which are cheaper) you end up having to rehabilitate them, which means learning more than you may be interested in. Lots of folks here who would be happy to help you though.

You are a little far, but if you are thinking about doing this with antiques, the Patina Tools auction (you can find them on google) is next weekend in Maryland. Lots of dealers, random guys with tools on their tailgates, and old tool enthusiasts will be there, and it is a good place to get things (you can handle them, ask questions, etc., unlike ebay).

My advice would be to maybe look for a good low angle block plane (you do not need to buy a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen, there are plenty of good antiques out there cheaper), and try cleaning it up and sharpening it. That will give you a taste for what you can do with hand tools, and whether you want to go further or not. Then build a shooting board to help with your mitres, and try building a couple of simple frames without the decorative stuff. If all goes well you can go further, and if it does not you have not already laid out a bunch of money for stuff.

[Brian Holcombe]

Depends on how far you want to take this, if you want to make a product near equal to a professional framing shop then you need a miter trimmer and a place to buy moldings. You can do the gold leaf yourself.

Basically you can buy very high quality moldings that can be considerably more elaborate from someone who makes moldings on a commercial scale. Not box-store stuff, but a commercial business that supplies moldings for architecture and framing industry.

Alternatively you can build a work bench, buy molding planes and learn how to make your own moldings. Start by buying Matt Bickford's book. You will want to venture into what would be known as joined frames, these are closer to historically accurate frames and rely upon joinery to remain in tact. These are what you see in museums typically in the historical galleries, probably impressionism and older, maybe post impressionism and early modernism. (not very usual in the modern galleries). These are the kind of thing you'd see made well prior to the existence of corrugated fasteners and so forth. They're easy to spot as the corner joints are seamless, the frame was made whole prior to the gold-leaf being applied.

People still make these types of frames today but they're quite expensive. One shop near me makes historical replicas and I believe they start at a few thousand dollars.

You will have to learn to be a competent woodworker to do this, there really is no short-cut that allows one to learn to make moldings and nothing else. As mentioned above, sharpening and general woodworking skills are required. Sharpening handtools is absolutely key to their function, and routinely required. For instance I'm sharpening my hand planes every 30-45 minutes of continuous use. They're completely unlike current day machine tools that stay sharp for a long while. Hand tools are powered by human hands and so must be very sharp to work properly because they do not have high speed or high force.

[Phil Mueller]

I can certainly appreciate the caution of assembled pieces and wood movement. More of a concern combining different species of wood, however, I have 100+ year old antique furniture with applied moldings (even cross grained) that have held up fine. I don’t think you need to worry about cracking on an assembled piece particularely if using the same wood species and glueing long grain to long grain...which is what you would be doing.

Looking at your example further, I think you could do the beading on the base board edge, and just applying the outside piece...so just a two piece glue up.

This isn’t a frame, but an example of a profile cut on the end of the base board...then imagine a smaller piece glued to the outside edge...

380159 380160

[Bob Britton]

I can certainly appreciate the caution of assembled pieces and wood movement. More of a concern combining different species of wood, however, I have 100+ year old antique furniture with applied moldings (even cross grained) that have held up fine. I don’t think you need to worry about cracking on an assembled piece particularely if using the same wood species and glueing long grain to long grain...which is what you would be doing.

Looking at your example further, I think you could do the beading on the base board edge, and just applying the outside piece...so just a two piece glue up.

This isn’t a frame, but an example of a profile cut on the end of the base board...then imagine a smaller piece glued to the outside edge...

380159 380160


Hi Phil:

Thanks for the guidance.

All of my prior efforts to make the molding have been done using a single piece of wood, grooving it out with a 1" dado bit on a power router. But the more that I think about it, doing this as a combination piece might actually result in less work over all (and less wood waste and dust/shavings on the floor!)

If I use my table saw to rip a ~1/2" strip, like you show above, and fix that to the main molding, I guess I wonder If I can hand plane the cut edge of the ripped piece to be square. (the Table saw I have is just a cheap sears model. the blade, while adjustable, will not move to 90 degrees perpendicular to the table top. The way it's assembled, it only goes to 89 degrees with a hard stop, no more tilt). And I wonder how secure it would be. Another person mentioned maybe doing a tongue/groove to secure a strip more in place.

That piece, like you show above, would need to be strong enough to handle some chiselling. Basswood is pretty soft, so I'm not sure that it would take much in the way of pressure/pounds per square inch, on the board. But I wonder if the glued on piece would hold up.

But this is some thing I'm definitely going to try (combination assembly of the molding).

[Bob Britton]

Now that's really interesting!

I had found that frame shops sometimes use a "Miter guillotine", but the ones that are within my budget are just cheap chinese mfg and I just couldn't see spending the $ on them.

I did try to make a shooting board and bought a Stanley low-angle hand plane from Rockler. That was a mistake right there. Sorry to be blunt, but that plane was just a piece of junk. the tightening screen would not lock the blade in place and the blade kept moving on me, swiveling. Again, welcome to the modern world of cheap mfg and cheap alloys and such.

That's what started me down the path towards looking at antique planes when planes used to be made of iron and steel!

I have repurposed one plane I acquired. Removed the rust, and spent hours with a grinding water stone/angle device and got a very good restore on it. The thing is, I didn't know at the time that there were different planes, and this one was not a low-angle edge plane that could be used with a shooting board to try to get a rough-cut miter.

I also tried a miter box. First, the yellow plastic ones, then an older wooden miter box. There's so much slip in them, and the grooves where the miter saw fits has enough area to drift the blade, and I had trouble keeping the box/saw/molding from slipping around while dragging the saw to make the cuts. A lot of drift, and the end result was closer to 45 degrees in the angle cut, but the end cut was not 90 degrees, but like 88.5/89-ish. So when I went to align it up, it was off.

I also watched a youtube video where a guy showed how to NOT use a short triangle to mark a 45 for cutting, but showed how to use longer length measures to increase the accuracy of a drawn 45 degree angle. (hard to explain, but if you measure out 1" x 1" (rise/run), you'll get a 45. but if you measure out 24" x 24", you'll find that the likelihood is that drawn 45 is far more accurate.

Anyways, he then showed how by scoring with a razor knife the 45 degree cut mark, and then using a hand chisel to gently start tapping out a narrow slot along the cut mark, you begin making a groove for a dozuki or miter saw to fit. This was one of the most accurate 45 degree miter cuts I got, but the problem was the perpendicular was off...by a lot. When the corners were put together, wide gapes, a sixteenth or more, could easily be seen. But my digital angle measure had the miter at 45.1 or so...the closest I've been able to cut.

That's why I think the miter trimmer you mentioned would actually be just what I need. But I'm not averse to figuring out how to use a low-angle hand plane /edge plane either. That might take some practice.

I was looking at professional hand miter boxes. There's this:

https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-20-800-Contractor-Grade-Clamping/dp/B00005QVQW

But see my comments RE: Stanley. I wouldn't give them one penny today.

(it's funny, in my professional life, I do IT work for a company that is the US importer of RCA products. Most people don't understand that many major brands are no longer the same companies that used to make quality goods, as most brands have been sold off and products are being mass-mfg in Asia).

Again, thats' why I started looking at some antique woodworking tools and techniques. I just refuse to support the current land-fill, make a quick buck selling chinese products method of capitalism today. (sorry to sound like I'm preaching. I just find it sad what garbage is being made and sold and quickly moved into landfills. What ever happened to companies making quality products? Make it quick. Make it cheap. Make your quick buck. Who cares if it breaks and it goes to a landfill immediately. They'll just buy another one. It's just not a sustainable model for our environment and ecology.)

Been on ebay a bit. Looking at trying to find a Stanley 45 or 55, but now I'm trying to shop for this. It seems to me a miter trimmer, or learning how to use a shooting board with edge plane is probably the right route. Because it seems like it minimizes the accuracy concerns of the rough cut, and finishing off the miter with a trimmer or edge plane is the way to go.

(Note: Please forgive me for my opinions RE: Cheap Chinese goods. I just find it so detestable how we no longer care enough to fight those aspects of what is affecting our ecology and environment. I don't know if you've seen or heard about the floating plastic island in the south pacific the size of texas, 2-3' deep of floating plastic waste. It breaks my heart to watch companies make a quick buck while the negative consequences are placed on society and our ecology and environment. I'd much rather find and re-use an antique tool because I know it's made better and will last, while also knowing I'm not adding to the land fills).

Thanks Bob. That Miter trimmer really looks like what I need. After that, I need to play around a bit more with miter splines and half-laps. I learned really quick that gluing end grains together has absolutely NO strength or durability!

:)

[Bob Britton]

Thank you, Jim.

I need to rebuild my shooting board. That link alone shows some great ideas to make it ambidextrous.

BTW...I love your small wood bench. My spring project is to make one. I am embarrassed to say I am using an old butcher block kitchen table today. I don't have much room in my garage, but that bench you are using in the video looks to be the perfect setup for my workspace!

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I did try to make a shooting board and bought a Stanley low-angle hand plane from Rockler. That was a mistake right there. Sorry to be blunt, but that plane was just a piece of junk. the tightening screen would not lock the blade in place and the blade kept moving on me, swiveling. Again, welcome to the modern world of cheap mfg and cheap alloys and such.

That's what started me down the path towards looking at antique planes when planes used to be made of iron and steel!



Most of my planes are antiques. I have read comments about the new Stanley line needing work before they are usable. What is allowing the blade to move? Is the lower screw bottoming out before it gets tight? If so, you could try using a grinder to shorten the screw a very little so that it will tighten. You may need to clean up the end of the threads afterwards with a little sandpaper or a small file.

Not trying to get in an argument over modern manufacturing quality, but since you already bought it (and assuming you did not return it) perhaps there is a way to get it working. Others who own that plane or a similar may have other suggestions.

[Bob Britton]

The screw, while appearing to be brass, seems more like some other alloy, would not stay tightened. When the plane was pushing a shaving, it would loosen and twist the blade out of position.

I called the Rockler guys about two weeks after I got it and they said it was typical of Stanley's "lower end" planes, and that their "higher end planes" are made better. I never pushed the issue, and just determined to look for planes made before mass manufacturing (offshore). I'll try to look up the model # when I get home. Maybe something can be done.

I started looking at Lie Nielson afterwards, but I'm not prepared to mortgage my house to go down that path, though I do look upon their products with a bit of envy. But I've done enough research to know that there are some real solid quality planes from companies like Stanley from back in the day when quality mattered. I suppose if I had wealth, I'd probably buy a series of Lie Nielsons, but at this point I'm still exploring whether hand tools is going to be a craft that I am going to be able to pick up. I'm just looking to get decent tools that will be requisite for doing the fundamental frames / moldings I plan on doing. Who knows...if I really get into it, I may make a real investment.

The one antique plane I did restore...it was kind of fun. These old planes have a lot of life in them, and just need some TLC. Sure, some are so worn and the metal deeply pitted that they'd be beyond my ability to restore. But if you look past the dust and a bit of the surface oxidation, there's some beauties lurking underneath with a lot of use left in them.

Right now, I"m on the hunt for a Stanley #45 or #55. The Lie Nelson combination plane looks great. But at $400 for the base device with one blade, and a total price of over $1200 to get the equivalent set of the Stanley #45/#55, I just don't have that amount of money.

Been haunting ebay for the last couple of days trying to find a #45/#55 set. Patience, grass-hopper!

:)

[Jim Koepke]

I started looking at Lie Nielson afterwards, but I'm not prepared to mortgage my house to go down that path

[edit]

Right now, I"m on the hunt for a Stanley #45 or #55.

It is usually against my better judgement to suggest a beginner to purchase a #55 as their first combination plane. Usually a #45 is enough of a brain twister to get to work that many give up before long. A common feeling among many who do use both is the #45 is a kind of trainer to master before moving on to the #55.

For doing fancier work though the #55 will be in your future if you do decide to make your own more complex frames.

As far as your low angle Stanley block plane pictures are very helpful or at least a link to a listing of the actual plane to help others asses what the problem may be and how to address correcting the situation. Some of my planes have screws which like yours have a tendency to rotate during use. Depending on the situation they have usually been corrected by different means. Some will hold with a small O-ring under the screw head. Others with a lock washer or a fabricated washer made from sand paper. With sand paper it sometimes helps to fold the sheet so there is abrasive on both sides of the washer. There are also speciality lock washers available to work in countersunk holes. Another 'trick' is to use a ny-lock type of washer. Some nuts used in high vibration environments have nylon inserts in the nut to help dampen vibrations and to keep things from turning. If something like this can be added to prevent turning you might have a correction for an otherwise unusable plane.

If you do look for an older used block plane you may want to focus on something like a Stanley #65 series. They are wider than the #60 series. Before getting a low angle jack plane a #65-1/2 was my preferred shooting board plane.

On the question of the LN or LV low angle jack planes they are both very good at retaining their value. Most folks who have been there and done that have reported getting back 80% or better on their investment. Folks who sell overseas often receive more than the original price due to how Import or Value Added Taxes in some countries on imports effect new items differently than used items. Buying a used item at higher than the new price can save them even more by not having to pay taxes.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Been haunting ebay for the last couple of days trying to find a #45/#55 set. Patience, grass-hopper!

Here are a couple of posts you may want to check:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?121761-Specialty-Planes-for-quot-Neanderthal-Wisdom-quot

My post on the Stanley #45 is #11 in the thread if your viewing is set up for 'Linear Oldest First.' It is focused on general information of the Stanley #45 as a 'speciality plane.'

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?116419-Planes-and-a-Few-Things-to-Look-For

This is post #27 in this thread. It is focused more on the things one should be aware of when purchasing a #45. There are a few missing parts that do not matter, but there are others that are critical to good performance.

jtk

[Stan Calow]

Bob, I too use a miter trimmer for frames, but my biggest change was to stop using my miter saw (chop saw) to cut the initial 45s. Its too inaccurate, rough, and difficult to control for small pieces. I got a Nobex miter saw (quiet, hand powered) for that purpose and its very handy for cleanly trimming all sorts of small parts.

To be honest, for frames that have profiles the least bit complicated, I think its more cost effective to buy commercial pre-made framing stock by the foot and start there.

[Pat Barry]

Bob, I too use a miter trimmer for frames, but my biggest change was to stop using my miter saw (chop saw) to cut the initial 45s. Its too inaccurate, rough, and difficult to control for small pieces. I got a Nobex miter saw (quiet, hand powered) for that purpose and its very handy for cleanly trimming all sorts of small parts.

To be honest, for frames that have profiles the least bit complicated, I think its more cost effective to buy commercial pre-made framing stock by the foot and start there.
I would use my Delta 10" compound miter saw to do the basic cuts. With a fine pitch blade and a zero clearance backer it does a great job and I get clean cuts. The nice thing I can do with it is re-trim a small amount off to get the length correct - try that with a hand powered saw. I agree though, that some sort of shooting technque or dedicated trimmer will give the best joint fit, after all the miter saw is a carpentry tool, not for fine woodworking.

[Bob Britton]

Hi Stan. Thanks. I have Omega Moldings and a couple other suppliers to turn to for pre-made moldings.

My thought RE: Plein Air frames / Cassetta style frames is that they're really very simple: Just a wide groove, with two raised edges. how those edges are finished (bead, reed, hand-carved, etc.) is really straight forward. The basic molding really does not have much form to it.

One thing for sure, with my predicament, is that it's primarily trying to use the wrong tools for the job, and some basic lack of know-how on my part and practice. As you say, in learning what I have learned, it is stunning to see how inaccurate my power tools are. But if you a contractor doing rough in work (framing houses, etc.), they get the job done. For accurate cutting...no.

I was looking at an old-fashioned Stanley Miter box that was recommended in this very old frame making how to book I found. I think they recommended a Stanley 2246. Today, there's the Stanley 20-800, but the reviews I've read basically confirm my general views on modern day manufacturing: poor quality.

But I think FWIW getting a Miter trimmer might be the better investment. Like I said, I can get a miter to roughly 45.1 to 45.4 degrees (according to my digital angle measure), and I think if I can either figure out how to finish it with a shooting board and low angle plane, or a Miter trimmer is probably the way to go. From what I'm reading here, and watching on youtube, it seems as if it's naive to think one can cut an accurate 45 in one chop. One first seems to make a rough 45, then finish it (low-angle plane/shooting board or miter trimmer).

My experience in making my first shooting board and trying to use a Stanley 65 bought from Rockler was not a good experience because the blade on that Stanley kept slipping and wouldn't stay in place. Another poster (Jim Koepke) mentioned that perhaps I need to revisit that plane and try some of the suggestions on how to get the blade to stay put.

I'm just a novice, I have read and watched, but to be honest, I'm not able to achieve something as simple as four lengths of molding, mitered 45, and splined or half-lapped together. All my life, I've been able to learn things and to figure stuff out. It has been eye-opening to learn that making a picture frame requires the right tools and skills. It is something I genuinely appreciate and something I genuinely want to learn how to craft, if anything to gain the knowledge and sense of achievement.

But really, my hope is that I can make some basic plein-air frames, custom carved with unique etchings, and designs, and then to finish them (gilding) and putting my art in them. This so far has been the journey of about a year of p/t effort to try to figure out. And I know at this point it is my lack of tools that are essential, and some competency in the craft. I know it's attainable, but I'm trying to accomplish something my heart wants so badly to achieve. I never would have thought that cutting a 45 and making a frame would be such a challenge. There's clearly a requisite skill needed.

I have this frame I made, I call it my "Franken-frame" (after Frankenstein.) I came so close. the 45 degree miters were close, though off by ~.1 to ~.3 degrees each. When I assembled it, and glued it in place, you could see the cumulative effect of the inaccurate miters. But I made my own wood putty and filled it in. Didn't look bad. Then, I learned how weak glueing end grain is. So I tried making a corner spline. When I tried fitting in the spline, the piece of wood I was using was too think, got stuck half way in. I coudn't get it out, and tried tapping it in (mistake) and it just got lodged permanently in there. I used a flush saw to trim the excess off. It was a comedy of errors. So my thinking is this:

1. can I get the skill and tools needed to make an accurate 45 miter.

2. can I then ensure that I can cut those miters on four pieces, where the lengths of the boards are exact, so that when fitting together the four-pieces of the frames, it fits together accurately with no gap. Right now, if those pieces aren't trimmed to exact lengths, it will skew the fitting together of the four moldings.

3. Can I make a rabbet (rebate) for the canvas panel to fit in (yes, know how to do this now). No biggie.

4. Can I figure out how to do some basic corner joinery (miter spline, half-lap) or at least default to using a biscuit cutter and biscuit to give the corners some strength. I think I can do this part, at least with a biscuit.

5. Can I make a decorative bead and carve the raised portion of the plein air frame. Yes, without a doubt. This isn't my problem.

And then can I finish the frame...that's a whole non-woodworking skill that I've yet to get into, but I've learned enough about gilding (24 carat, or mica imitation leaf) to know that I should be able to do that.

As an artist, sometimes they say that putting a 24 carat, closed corner, water gilded frame on a poor quality painting is like putting lipstick on a pig. (Not that I think my paintings are pigs). But the more positive way to understand what I'm trying to achieve is that putting a quality gilded frame on a piece of art enriches the painting and can enhance the value of the art to prospective purchasers.

If money weren't an issue, and I was wealthy and selling my art for $10-$20 per sq. inch like many decent artists do today, I would pay to have professional framers supply my frames. But when I can barely sell an 18" x 24" painting for $400, I cannot afford to put a $1000 hand-crafted frame on it.

Maybe in the end, I will learn that I do not have the capacity or skill to learn the craft of frame making. I'd like to learn it because, as I said earlier, many arts & crafts style artists designed (and some made them by themselves) custom frames to support their artwork. I think that would be a lot of fun.

What's really driving this, for me, is that my step dad, who's got cancer, gave me the circular saw, router table, and some old basic hand tools to me. I made a painting for him. But he asked me to make him a frame for him for that painting. So before he passes (stage four lymphoma being treated with chemo), I'm hoping to at least honor my promise and commitment to him to make a hand-crafted frame. I don't think he expects a professional frame. But I do want to give him a frame that fits, that doesn't have wide gaps showing in the corners, and one that doesn't fall apart because the miters don't hold. The painting I did for him is here (https://www.facebook.com/ArtistRobertPBrittonJr/photos/a.303647023089357.70553.303638269756899/627027927417930/?type=3)
It's of some wood ducks. I have an idea of trying to carve some cattails up the vertical sides of the frames, and maybe carve a Cross in the bottom center, then gilding it. Anyways, this is what is driving my push: to create a personalized frame for him as he requested.

I know I have learned a lot so far. I think I need to close the gap on the 45 degree miters, and the joinery. I've got much of the other aspects (the finishing work) pretty much covered.

[Jim Koepke]

1. can I get the skill and tools needed to make an accurate 45 miter.

2. can I then ensure that I can cut those miters on four pieces, where the lengths of the boards are exact, so that when fitting together the four-pieces of the frames, it fits together accurately with no gap. Right now, if those pieces aren't trimmed to exact lengths, it will skew the fitting together of the four moldings.

One of my problems when beginning to work wood was in trying to get accurate measurements. At one point it struck me that the best way to get pieces to go together properly wasn't in measuring them but by comparing them. Now when multiple pieces have to be the same size they are compared to each other. Finger tips can detect very small differences.

Having a mitered end being off by one tenth of a degree is fine if the one mating to it is also off by a tenth of a degree the other way.

Sometimes one has to finesse the miter a little on the shooting board. With a little practice one picks up the subtleties of how much to shim or finagle the workpiece. A good plane with a sharp blade set for a light cut will get you there.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/img_9459.jpg

[Michael Todrin]

I agree with Brian that this is not a casual undertaking to build mouldings that are as good as your paintings. If you would rather spend your time painting but still have some ability to customize frames, have a non-Neander solution for you: you could buy a custom profile shaper cutter and have your local mill shop make your speacial frame mouldings. You could then buy a mitre guillotine and you could make your own frames with only a small time and monetary investment.

If you want to go down the path of woodworking glory and make your own mouldings and frames it will certainly be rewarding, but you might not have as much time to paint.

[Stew Denton]

Bob,

This may not be what you are interested in, but....when I was a young man I worked in a couple of different lumber yards. (The old fashioned kind with bulk nails, a small office/store area that had: woodworking, carpentry, electrical, concrete, and other types of tools as well as hardware for construction, etc. You drove into the lumber yard between the lumber buildings and could drive right up to the lumber bin you were interested in

In both yards we had collections of mill work samples that the various mill work outfits made. These were typically on a small light weight bead chain, so you could look at the examples and order the mill work from the outfit. Many of these were for picture frames, etc. Some were small and ornate, maybe only 1/2" to 3/4" wide and 1/8" thick, and could be glued (along with others) onto a basic molding to make a fairly ornate and complex picture frame blank to cut, trim, and glue up into a picture frame.

Lumber yards, the smaller old fashioned kind, probably still have such mill work samples. Reputable mill work shops will sell you such mill work, and typically each stick will be very nearly perfect. You can then use your shooting boards, planes, chisels, etc. to make the picture frame using the high quality molding made by the mill work company. The big box outfits MIGHT have such, but I doubt it.

This is a quick way to get results.

However, to start with, I would go to a lumber yard and buy something like 1/4" X 1.5" molding. Something simple and relatively inexpensive to practice on. It could also be built up by glue ups, as mentioned earlier, or profiled with beads by using a Stanley 45, etc. By doing this, you start with a piece of trim that is straight, flat, and often has grain that can be easy to work with.

With regard to block planes, I like the old Stanley planes, not that they are any better than say the Millers Falls or any other good tool maker, but there are a lot of the old Stanley planes out there, and because of that there is a lot of information on the various models of block planes Stanley made, but be warned, Stanley made a lot of different models of block planes.

One of the best sites will show up if you do a search for "blood and Gore Stanley Planes." Again, be forewarned about that site, as he takes a somewhat dim view that Stanley made so many models of block planes, but the information on each and every model is very good and extremely knowledgeable. You will learn a lot about which models are suitable for your work. On many models of Stanley Block Planes, he will tell you places to check on the plane, to look for faults or cracks that often show up on particular models. This sort of this is invaluable infromation.

With regard to price, there are a lot of old Stanley (and other brands) of block planes out there, and you should be able to find one in good shape for not much money. You want a low angle block plane that has an adjustable throat that can be opened and closed to regulate the amount of opening of the mouth in front of the iron. Go to Antique shops, flea markets, etc. I have paid as little as $5 to $10 for a decent old Stanley, and as little as $20 for one that needed virtually NO restoration for it to be a very good user, and for $20 it even looked pretty good with almost no clean up. They may cost a bit more up there, but look on that auction site on the net for Stanley block planes under the "Sold" heading and look only at the "Auction" sold planes to see what people ACTUALLY sold them for, not the ridiculous amount someone was asking for on the "buy it now" option.

A good OLDER Stanley low angle block plane might be just what you need for a shooting board sized for picture frames.

Regards,

Stew

[Bob Britton]

Thank you, Stew. Some really good advice.

I've been hunting for a Stanley #45. Paul Sellers said they should be able to be had used for about $50. But the ones I'm finding on eBay and Craigslist are $300 for some really poor quality ones, or $600 for those that appear to be in working order.

I really think that is the plane I need to have in my Kit. Maybe a #55. But I'm heeding the advise of others and trying to start with the #45 and learning, then perhaps moving up to a #55.

I may also look at the idea you have of getting pre-manufactured chained/beeded stock and gluing it on. I was watching some videos on doing beads/reeds. Looks like a great thing to be able to learn. But again it comes down to having the tool for the job.

:)

[Stew Denton]

Bob,

A price of $300 to $600 for a Stanley 45 is just plain nuts. That is the kind of price you see for a Stanley 55.

You see folks ask ridiculous prices on Ebay on the "buy it now" option. Go to the "Sold" section and look at the "auction" choice to see what people have actually been paying for one. Time after time I see people either putting up and initial bid price or a "buy it now" price that is totally out of reason, but then again they normally don't sell for that price, you see the same item at that price for months. That money is the kind of money that Stanley 55 planes sell for.

I just went to that auction site "sold" listing for auctions and saw a number of good user grade 45s for a bit over $100, and a small number for less. There were also collectors grade planes that the prices were very high on....leave those to the collectors, don't try to outbid them. Trouble is someone buys a 45 at an auction or garage sale, looks at the "sold" section, and then puts the price of the beautiful collector grade plane on the plane they are trying to sell, even though the plane they have for sale is only worth a third of what the collector grade plane is worth.

With regard to the 45 vs the 55, I concur with the others get the 45 first. The 55 is radically more complex.

Regards,

Stew

[Bob Britton]

Ok. I will do that. I was looking at the buy it now options. Impatience.

I will look to find some to bid on.

That’s probably the way to go.

Do you have a recommended version of the 45 I should look for?

[Jim Koepke]

With regard to the 45 vs the 55, I concur with the others get the 45 first. The 55 is radically more complex.

Good advice.

Before reading Stew's response it had me thinking of putting together a #45 to sell if people are paying that much for them this week.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Bob,

I hope Jim and Steven will chime in on your question about recommendations because both have used a 45 a great deal more than I have.

That said, I do have a couple of thoughts. First, Stanley made improvements to the 45, and many of their planes over the years, and some of the improvements made the planes much more handy to use.

Read the "Blood and Gore Stanley Planes" site on the 45 very carefully, because I think read it there, but he mentions that the last major improvement to the 45 was the addition of a fine adjustment knob on the fence of the 45, and if I recall, that improvement was made in 1915. My 45 was made in 1913 or 14, I believe, and it did not have the knob on the fence. I posed the question on this forum, if that feature was highly desirable and useful, and the universal answer was "yes, you want that feature."

I did eventually buy an extra fence with the adjustment knob, but had to wait several months to get one at a reasonable price. I added it to the box with the 45, a nice and useful addition.

The second regards the nicker. I don't know if the 45 was ever made with the sliding type of nicker, but the clover leaf type nicker is much more easily sharpened, again according to the majority opinion here. The 55 came with both types over the years, and I had to wait a long time to get my 55 that was in the shape I wanted, had the clover leaf nicker, and was reasonably priced. I would make sure the 45 I bought had the clover leaf type of nicker, but it is also possible that it was only available with that type.

I would give three pieces of advise, with regard to buying on the auction site. I have been burned a couple of times. The first is look at the pictures very carefully to look for any cracks or flaws of any type. If the photos do not show the parts of the plane well enough to give you adequate inspection images, I now pass on the item, even if it is a great price and looks pretty good. What you can't see can burn you. The seller may be very honest, but often they don't know planes or saws from bananas, so do not know a flaw when they see it. I send a note and ask for more photos, or if the seller is knowledgeable, I ask him very specific questions. If I don't get an answer, or don't get the answer I want, I pass.

Secondly, be patient when buying something on that auction site. Especially with the 45, there are enough of them out there that you should get a reasonable price or bid price if you wait a while and watch for the plane you want at a reasonable price. This can be a problem if you are in a hurry, and the item is a lot less common than the Stanley 45. I waited and watched perhaps 2 years before the Stanley 55 came along that I bought. It was in excellent shape, was a model I wanted, had every one of the original parts present, including all of the ones that are often missing, had the original manual and box, and had a fairly good price (I don't think there is such a thing as a "reasonable" price for a Stanley 55 on the site.) However, there are a lot more Stanley 45s out there than 55s, so you should not have to wait too long.

Finally, do not be afraid to make a offer at the price you want when they have the "make an offer" option on the "Buy it Now" offering and their list price is well over what the item is typically selling for . I know guys who have told me that they have made offers way below what the guy was asking and the seller agreed and sold the item for the offered price. Sometimes the person has had the item on "Buy it Now" for many months and may finally realize that they are asking way too much. It does not hurt to ask. I do not try to rob anyone with an offer, but generally offer less than what I will pay because sometimes they make an counter offer, so I don't want my first offer to be at the very top end of what I would buy the item for because the counter offer will then often be too high. If your first offer gives you some wiggle room, the counter might then be reasonable and it becomes a "win win" situation for both of you.

Regards,

Stew

[Matt Lau]

Hey Bob,

I might copy you and make some frames too.
I have a few more diploma's/awards that I'll need to frame.

In terms of planes-- have you thought of just making a miter box, making a bench hook, making a few scratch stocks (instead of molding planes), and getting one good plane? The low angle plane is a good recommendation for your project.

[Matt Lau]

Oh, I forgot to add this link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 .html

You may want to consider getting the following, for a minimalist budget:
- saw for miters (I like the LV steel backed dozuki)
- low angle block (used stanley 60)
- scratch stocks (for making a profile instead of moulding planes; for making a recess instead of a plough plane).

In the meanwhile, make:
- miter box
- shooting board (see Derek Cohen's beautiful work above).
- scratch stocks.

Don't get bogged up in buying a bunch of tools (like I did when I first got into guitar building). Have fun, and get more stuff as you see fit.

[Bob Britton]

Hi Matt:

Thank you much! You know, I have pretty much come to a similar place. I was watching a series of videos online, including several by Mitch Peacoke (WOmadeOD) on Youtube. I've pretty much come to the same conculsion for now.

I need a:

1. Good Dozuki for helping make miter cuts. I've watched and know the technique for making miter cuts by hand, starting with a chisel, then finish cutting with the dozuki. That I think is much better than a miter box or a chops saw.

2. A plane for shooting. Mitch Peacock, I think was shooting with a Stanley #5 low angle block plane, not sure. BUt the little cheap low-angle $35 Stanley I bought from Rockler is not going to do the job. And I already have a shooting board I made. I was just using the wrong plane. I'll have to look at a Stanley #60.

3. Scratch stocks. YOu know, one would think that finding 5/4" x 3" basswood, 4S, would be far easier. No one has anything around me but rough basswood. I tried even paying a mill to make me some, and the boards they gave me were so variable in H X W, it was stunning. This is the part that I think I'd like to start with: Buying instead of making myself. Mitch Peacock has a video on how to face a board with a Stanley #5 Low angle Jack plane. That's going to be a lot of work that I'm not really sure I want to do.

Also, I think I've been convinced that making an assembly, instead of grooving out a recess on the molding, is probably wiser. I'm trying to bid on (unsuccessfully a Stanley #45), beause I think I can make overlapping grooves to make the recess. But it maybe better to rip 1" x 1/2" strips and then just glue them to the base stock edges to make the profile, then bead, reed, or hand-carve after that.

I also need to get a good try-square for fine woodworking, a good straight edge, maybe a depth guage, and a good set of carving chisels. I have some basic Stanley chisels I sharpened, but they are not going to work do to the carving I would like to do. But, honestly, I've only ONCE come close to having an OK basic frame assembled. Then I ruined it by trying to retro-fit corner splines onto it. My Frankenstein Frame (my "Frankenframe!")

:)

I would like to try the Stanley #45. But honestly, I'm sure a basic rebate plane, a low-angle jack for the shooting board, and may be a bead/reed plane, or a shoulder plane would be all that i need.

BTW...that's a great link. I like the double-shooting board for 45 degree miters. what a great idea. I may have to build one.